[HN Gopher] URL shorteners set ad tracking cookies
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       URL shorteners set ad tracking cookies
        
       Author : firloop
       Score  : 468 points
       Date   : 2021-01-03 19:05 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (ylukem.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (ylukem.com)
        
       | dillondoyle wrote:
       | Maybe cookie stuffing for incentive payments? e.g. why those
       | coupon sites make a ton of money even though they have zero to do
       | with purchase intent (someone searching for a coupon is already
       | in their cart about to buy).
        
       | ornornor wrote:
       | https://is.gd is the best url shortened I know of. Straight to
       | the point, fast, light, no snooping or tracking.
        
         | quyleanh wrote:
         | Thank you for sharing. This will be my default url shortener
         | from now on. Simple, fast and customizable.
        
       | nnx wrote:
       | Does this kind of cookie work anymore at all with browsers who
       | use restrictive rules for third party cookies? (like Safari)
        
       | Eriks wrote:
       | Not all URL shorteners do that. I know because I own and maintain
       | one that doesn't.
        
         | stretchcat wrote:
         | Hopefully yours is only available on a company LAN or other
         | private network. Public link shorteners are a linkrot disaster,
         | particularly the myriad of shorteners being run by random dudes
         | for shits and giggles, since those disappear as soon as they
         | get bored. There is nothing more frustrating than having a dead
         | shortened link for content that is likely still available if
         | only you had the real URL, not the shortened garbage. Link
         | shorteners are a form of pollution; you may as well pour used
         | motor oil down a gutter.
        
           | qwerty456127 wrote:
           | There are cases where URL shorteners are useful. E.g. some
           | websites would parse a link you embed within a text you post
           | and replace it with the actual video if that's a link to
           | YouTube. A shortener may be the only way to post a classic
           | hyperlink to a YouTube video there. Shortened URLs may also
           | help when you need to put them on paper/merchandise or on TV
           | or say them in a voice call. That's sad goo.gl has been
           | discontinued - it was what you could rely on. IMHO
           | archive.org should make their own.
        
           | Eriks wrote:
           | No, it's public and has been run for 11 years already and
           | will continue to do so in foreseeable future. I would say it
           | is the most popular one in my home country and it has good
           | reputation among users. From my experience most linkrot
           | issues comes from the fact that sites and documents URL
           | shorteners link to go down before URL shorteners themselves.
           | Many websites from 11 years ago doesn't exist anymore.
        
             | stretchcat wrote:
             | Will you die, will your heirs continue to operate this
             | service? Or do consequences beyond your life not concern
             | you? (e.g. _" Why should I care about climate change, I'll
             | be dead before it gets bad!"_)
             | 
             | To mitigate the harm you've already caused, you should put
             | the service into a read-only mode and contact Archive Team
             | about handing off the database. You should do this today,
             | before you get hit by a bus.
        
               | prophesi wrote:
               | What harm have they "already caused"?
               | 
               | Is link rot such a damaging phenomenon that it warrants
               | attacking hobbyists and their not-for-profit public
               | service?
               | 
               | Will you help financially compensate their time setting
               | up these fail-safes?
        
               | stretchcat wrote:
               | > _What harm have they "already caused"?_
               | 
               | They have already inserted themselves as a middleman by
               | shortening URLs, creating an additional point of failure
               | which will inevitably break sooner or later.
               | 
               | > _Will you help financially compensate their time
               | setting up these fail-safes?_
               | 
               | How about: _Blow it out your ass._ He made the mess, so
               | if he has any integrity he 'll foot the bill for cleaning
               | it up.
        
               | Eriks wrote:
               | It's users choice to use a shortener to shorten their
               | long URLs. Calling shorteners middleman is just wrong.
        
               | stretchcat wrote:
               | The person who uploads the link is not the only affected
               | party. This affects every unrelated person who might ever
               | want to follow those links long after the shortener is
               | dead and gone.
        
               | Eriks wrote:
               | Any link on the internet - shortened or not - can after
               | some time die. Domain registration expire, websites get
               | shut down. Domain changes ownership and new site goes up.
               | Relax. It's just a lifecycle of Internet resources. Let
               | us end this conversation. You obviously see things
               | differently.
        
               | prophesi wrote:
               | > [Unnecessary crude remark]. He made the mess, so if he
               | has any integrity he'll foot the bill for cleaning it up.
               | 
               | He [set up a server with a link shortening service pro
               | bono, eating the cost of server maintenance for 11
               | years], so if he has any integrity he'll [do more free
               | work].
               | 
               | I'd argue it's the user's fault if they decide to trust a
               | small hobby site to last until the end of time. How many
               | link shortening services have you used which promptly
               | died, causing you to find this ridiculous hill to die on?
        
               | Eriks wrote:
               | Thank you for being concerned for my life. I've set it up
               | in a way that someone will take it over after my sudden
               | death, don't worry.
               | 
               | And I care about climate change, even after my death.
        
               | dang wrote:
               | Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN or cross
               | into personal attack. Those things aren't compatible with
               | curious conversation, which is what we're going for here.
               | We're also trying to avoid the online callout/shaming
               | culture [1].
               | 
               | Even if you're right, beating people with a stick will
               | neither improve their behavior nor the quality of
               | conversation for anybody else. The end state of this is a
               | ghost town inhabited by a few nasty diehards, abandoned
               | by users one would actually want to have a conversation
               | with. That seems to be the default fate of internet
               | forums but the goal of this one has always been to stave
               | it off a little longer [2].
               | 
               | [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?query=online%20shaming%20by%3
               | Adang&s...
               | 
               | [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?query=stave%20by:dang&dateRan
               | ge=all&...
        
             | dejj wrote:
             | Do you have some form of information escrow in place? E.g.
             | could archive.org store a page of all your short-url
             | mappings?
        
               | Eriks wrote:
               | Not at the moment but Archive.org is an option I'm
               | considering.
        
       | start123 wrote:
       | TinyURL and a several free alternatives have been known to do it
       | for a while now. But, not everybody does this to be clear.
       | 
       | Running a free URL shortener costs time and money which is why
       | they do it. For my URL shortening service https://blanq.io, I am
       | planning to remove this feature and only support custom domains.
       | Free shortening is highly abused by spam and its a daily battle
       | to be one step ahead of them.
       | 
       | Last week, a single bad user created a phishing link and brought
       | down the entire site for an hour until I was able to restore it.
       | 
       | Lesson learned.
        
       | forrestthewoods wrote:
       | I really wish web browsers would strip tracking code bullshit
       | from URLs. When I copy/paste a link for friends I always manually
       | edit that crap.
       | 
       | On the other hand I do love websites like WireCutter which only
       | exists because of referral codes.
        
         | aembleton wrote:
         | You can do this with an extension like
         | https://gitlab.com/KevinRoebert/ClearUrls
         | 
         | I found that it broke some sites though so I removed it.
        
         | TimLeland wrote:
         | Yes wirecutter exist because of affiliate links but they do
         | offer detailed reviews. I use/trust them often for purchases
         | and amazon affiliates do not cost the user anything extra.
        
       | floatingatoll wrote:
       | Are these cookies being caught and blocked/discarded/etc by
       | Safari Intelligent Tracking Protection on macOS Big Sur and iOS
       | 14?
        
       | eznzt wrote:
       | This post is a clear example of why the cookie law is an
       | overreach. If you don't want websites setting cookies on your
       | browser, why don't you configure your browser not to save
       | cookies?
        
       | CarelessExpert wrote:
       | Eh, for links to content on my website I just cooked up my own
       | URL shortener using Apache rewrite maps and a little scripting to
       | generate the short codes. Simple, private, and entirely under my
       | control (which also means I don't have to worry about the links
       | breaking).
        
         | ourcat wrote:
         | I did that for a while with a short domain I used to own
         | (urlb.at). Then ended up regretting it and shutting it down.
         | 
         | I eventually decided that URL shorteners were a terrible idea
         | for the web and that I wanted the 'actual' URLs out there.
        
           | CarelessExpert wrote:
           | > Then ended up regretting it and shutting it down.
           | 
           | Care to elaborate?
        
             | loceng wrote:
             | I assume because it creates/introduces an arguably
             | unnecessary point of potential future failure.
        
               | duskwuff wrote:
               | Also possibly because URL shorteners are frequently
               | abused, e.g. to obfuscate links in spam. Operating one
               | responsibly is a considerable amount of work.
        
       | musicale wrote:
       | Isn't tracking the entire business model of URL shorteners?
        
       | bluedino wrote:
       | Another reason I use a publicly curated HOSTS file (search GitHub
       | hosts file for examples), even if it is a little annoying that
       | those links break.
        
       | rkagerer wrote:
       | I'm an avid tinyurl user. Anyone from that site want to explain
       | their justification for this before I stop using your service?
       | 
       | What's a good alternative (with the ability to tailor the
       | shortened url)? I wouldn't mind paying a couple bucks a year.
        
         | TimLeland wrote:
         | Take a look at https://t.ly/ as an alternative to tinyurl. You
         | can update the url ending on the $5 a month plan. It's a
         | shorter domain with more options available.
        
       | 6510 wrote:
       | I use to run into a sci usenet poster who usually provided 10-30
       | shortened links with his postings pointing at books, papers and
       | previous postings (google groups). Arguing over a topic he one
       | time explained he had a clear analytics picture of what
       | references other posters did and didn't read, who [silently]
       | participated in the discussions, how much people read before and
       | after writing a response, etc.
        
         | sfgweilr4f wrote:
         | I do this for teaching. But I don't use a public url shortener
         | because I trust none of them. I have a shortener built into my
         | teaching site.
        
       | baxtr wrote:
       | Of course they do? How would erst make money otherwise?
        
         | dejj wrote:
         | Consider "commoditizing the complement"
         | (https://www.gwern.net/Complement) e.g. a news site making
         | their content linkable through social media for ad revenue at
         | the actual page.
        
           | zackmorris wrote:
           | Wow never heard of that, thanks!
           | 
           | This is one of the thousand reasons that I don't think
           | capitalism will be viable beyond 10-20 years from now. The
           | endgame will be perfect monopoly - one global player in every
           | niche of our daily existence. Slowly force-feeding us a diet
           | of whatever is most profitable (whatever service encompasses
           | the most dysfunction in exchange for money).
           | 
           | Off the top of my head, a better system might be one that
           | seeks to eliminate dysfunction instead of profiting from it.
           | Web browsers could provide short links to all websites by
           | using a hashing function instead of an encrypted refcount.
           | They could remove as many identifying bits as possible (like
           | cookies). I like the direction that Apple and others are
           | going, preserving less user data and letting less spill
           | between unrelated websites.
           | 
           | The question of what all these advertisers will do once
           | they're not allowed to track us is a big one. But my guess is
           | that targeted advertising is not needed in the first place.
           | They did just fine (arguably better) with demographics in the
           | centuries before tech revealed our personal browsing
           | histories.
        
             | lawnchair_larry wrote:
             | > This is one of the thousand reasons that I don't think
             | capitalism will be viable beyond 10-20 years from now.
             | 
             | Hmm. You posted this from your phone or computer that was
             | created by capitalism, from an OS created by capitalism,
             | using a browser created by capitalism, to a message board
             | for an organization who literally specializes in
             | capitalism. While the original incarnation of the internet
             | wasn't created by capitalism, military funding and the
             | inherent authoritarianism is probably not the ideal
             | direction to return to. Yet you think all of this only has
             | 10-20 years left?
             | 
             | Oddly, you express a preference for what Apple are doing
             | instead, yet they are the single largest product of
             | capitalism or any other economic system that the world has
             | ever known, including Saudi Aramco. Capitalism just "cured"
             | a pandemic faster than anyone thought possible.
             | 
             | Now, it's not without its issues, but all of the evidence
             | seems to suggest that we maybe ought to think twice before
             | abandoning it and probably killing hundreds of millions of
             | people (again).
        
               | SpocksBrain wrote:
               | Ah yes, "you dislike Society yet you contribute to it in
               | someway, I am so smart".
               | 
               | The classical Sciences and Arts were all founded and
               | developed under "divinely ordained" Monarchies. I suppose
               | that would've been a fantastic case for conserving that
               | system for you?
               | 
               | Have you thought that maybe all those material
               | accomplishments made under capitalism have less to do
               | with the system itself and more to do with the fact it's
               | the only one around? Pretty sure many of today's tech is
               | founded as much on innovation that came out of Soviet
               | labs as anybody else's.
               | 
               | Also, incidentally, current day capitalism is at the beck
               | and call of one of the last remaining communist
               | countries. Just a curiosity.
        
               | lawnchair_larry wrote:
               | > "you dislike Society yet you contribute to it in
               | someway, I am so smart".
               | 
               | Not even close to what I said. I didn't suggest that he
               | contributes anything to society.
               | 
               | > Have you thought that maybe all those material
               | accomplishments made under capitalism have less to do
               | with the system itself and more to do with the fact it's
               | the only one around? Pretty sure many of today's tech is
               | founded as much on innovation that came out of Soviet
               | labs as anybody else's.
               | 
               | It's (mostly) the only one around because the others all
               | failed spectacularly every other time. Not only did
               | states collapse, but about 100 million people died. It's
               | amazing that you'd use the Soviet union as an example,
               | considering where they ended up.
               | 
               | > Also, incidentally, current day capitalism is at the
               | beck and call of one of the last remaining communist
               | countries. Just a curiosity
               | 
               | China is the least communist of the remaining communist
               | countries. And do you happen to know what major change
               | allowed their GDP to explode and make them soon-to-be the
               | biggest economy in the world?
               | 
               | Even ignoring that, do you really want to live somewhere
               | like China? If you think poverty and working conditions
               | are bad in the US, just you wait!
               | 
               | Unless you meant one of the other examples, like Cuba,
               | North Korea, Vietnam or Laos. I'm guessing not.
        
               | q3k wrote:
               | > You posted this from your phone or computer that was
               | created by capitalism, from an OS created by capitalism,
               | using a browser created by capitalism, to a message board
               | for an organization who literally specializes in
               | capitalism.
               | 
               | ... that all base on centuries of research, science and
               | technological development that happened before capitalism
               | was even first proposed. Your point being?
        
       | arsonaut wrote:
       | cookie dropping is more common than people realize.
       | 
       | I've created a free service with no ads and completely free that
       | also generates qrcodes (https://qrli.to)
       | 
       | The problem with url shortners is usually the abuse they get
       | (from affiliate tracking above to MLM or CPL for dating sites).
       | However the entry barrier is so low and they are still a relevant
       | part of the infrastructure, not surprised bitly and tinyurl are
       | monetizing this way.
        
       | polote wrote:
       | Don't want to be mean, but just to inform you, guidelines says
       | "Please don't delete and repost. Deletion is for things that
       | shouldn't have been submitted in the first place." and I know you
       | have posted and then deleted the same post yesterday. It is fine
       | to repost if you didn't get notice no worries
        
         | firloop wrote:
         | Sorry about that, noted.
        
       | pluc wrote:
       | Wasn't the primary use of URL shorteners to compress a given URL
       | in order to reduce the character count? Given today's Twitter,
       | what are they still used for besides visual convenience?
       | 
       | Do youtu.be, t.co, fb.me and dlvr.it next!
        
         | mschuster91 wrote:
         | > Given today's Twitter, what are they still used for besides
         | visual convenience?
         | 
         | Data analytics - basically you spread out different shortened
         | links on your campaigns / media, so you can track effectiveness
         | while at the same time the user does not have to manually type
         | in cryptic characters.
        
           | pluc wrote:
           | Yeah, what I mean is that I don't think URL shorteners do
           | anything for users aside from being slightly better to look
           | at
        
         | buzer wrote:
         | I mainly use them when I need to send a link that needs to be
         | manually typed at some point (e.g. asking person to go some
         | website during phone call).
        
         | indymike wrote:
         | Well, click tracking and click counting come to mind.
        
         | reaperducer wrote:
         | My company uses them in its print assets like billboards,
         | posters, and transit ads.
         | 
         | I see them all the time in commercial text messages, like from
         | things I've subscribed to, or delivery alerts so I can track
         | the pizza guy.
        
           | Hnrobert42 wrote:
           | Do they use QR codes in addition to the shortened URLs? I've
           | always wondered why QR code's haven't caught on more.
           | Especially for things where the objective to access
           | information more convenient than fat-fingering.
        
             | opan wrote:
             | QR codes are everywhere! They're on a lot more foods and
             | such than they used to be even 5 years ago. French's
             | mustard has one, Barq's Root Beer cans have one. A lot of
             | electronics I buy have a card in the box with a QR code to
             | get to the company's site.
        
               | aembleton wrote:
               | It's a shame the Netflix app on smart TVs doesn't show
               | one for login.
               | 
               | Rather than awkwardly typing in my username and password
               | through a remote control, I should be able to open the
               | Netflix app on my phone and scan the qr code.
        
             | TimLeland wrote:
             | T.LY generates QR codes for all short links generated. We
             | also have a simple tool for creating QR codes from any URL
             | https://t.ly/qr-code-generator
        
         | earthboundkid wrote:
         | No, the primary point was always to add UTM trackers to the
         | URL. That's why companies kept using them after Twitter
         | introduced t.co.
        
           | Thorrez wrote:
           | Can't you add the UTM tracker to the URL with shortening the
           | URL?
        
         | jabart wrote:
         | Text messages still use short links and carriers sometimes
         | block by domain for links sent via A2P over their network.
        
       | axegon_ wrote:
       | Not particularly surprising. I was building a url shortner some
       | 12-13 years ago but eventually abandoned it. But this was exactly
       | how I planned to monetize it.
        
         | TheRealDunkirk wrote:
         | This headline might be the biggest "duh!" I've ever read on the
         | site. In this day, and in this surveillance market economy, you
         | must assume that you WILL be tracked wherever you CAN be
         | tracked.
        
           | isatty wrote:
           | I understand the downvotes, given this is HN, but while this
           | is "duh", lots of people don't actively think about it
           | whenever they see a shortened link. Posts like this are okay
           | now and again to remind people that they can and will be
           | tracked wherever possible.
        
       | methyl wrote:
       | We use Cloudflare Workers as a very simple URL shortener [1]. It
       | has very generous free tier (100k requests per day) so it's more
       | than enough for a lot of use cases.
       | 
       | [1] https://lucjan.medium.com/free-url-shortener-with-
       | cloudflare...
        
         | donmcronald wrote:
         | Cloudflare docs [1] recommend using an 'AAAA' record with the
         | value '100::' for the dummy DNS entry.
         | 
         | 1.
         | https://developers.cloudflare.com/workers/learning/getting-s...
        
           | methyl wrote:
           | Thanks, edited the article.
        
       | TimLeland wrote:
       | This is really interesting. I suppose tiny url gets a kicked back
       | from their ad network for this. I'm the creator of the URL
       | shortener (T.LY) and a Link Unshortener tool. I spend most of my
       | development time fighting bad actors. My goal is to have a
       | legitimate competitor to bitly that people benefit from. We do
       | not set any cookies on redirects but do use cookies for
       | authentication for users.
       | 
       | T.LY: https://t.ly/
       | 
       | Link Unshortener: https://linkunshorten.com/
        
         | legulere wrote:
         | How is your project protected from being bought off by a bad
         | actor?
        
         | cookiengineer wrote:
         | > Link Unshortener: https://linkunshorten.com/
         | 
         | Well, Google Analytics and Googlesyndication are known to set
         | the infamous PREF cookie (remember Snowden and PRISM?)... so I
         | wouldn't recommend that website either if the whole point of
         | this discussion is to avoid ad tracking cookies.
        
         | stanislavb wrote:
         | Seems nice. I'm curious, how do you make money / stay in
         | business? I couldn't find any paid options.
        
           | 1f60c wrote:
           | Maybe this has changed since your comment, but I see three
           | paid plans on the homepage.
        
             | TimLeland wrote:
             | Yes always been there. There are additional plans once you
             | register for more short links and teams.
        
           | TimLeland wrote:
           | Thank you! The site and extension are free to use to shorten
           | links. I do offer the ability to upgrade starting at $5 a
           | month which allows custom domains, ability to customize
           | links, expire links based on date or clicks, private stats,
           | ability to shorten links using the API (https://t.ly/docs/).
           | 
           | I also recently release a new feature called OneLinks that
           | are great for social media bios. Here is an example on a
           | OneLink: https://t.ly/TimLeland
           | 
           | Extension Link: https://t.ly/extension
        
             | hedora wrote:
             | Hmmm. My browser complained that you're running three
             | trackers on that site (google, cloudflare and digital
             | ocean).
        
               | detaro wrote:
               | Are you seriously equating "has an image hosted on
               | digitalocean" (which probably hosts the entire site) with
               | "tracking"?
        
               | TimLeland wrote:
               | Yes cloudflare for speed and protection. Digitalocean for
               | file storage. I may remove google analytics.
        
               | wolco2 wrote:
               | Using cloudflaire doesn't give me confidence this will in
               | anyway not track me.
        
               | RussianCow wrote:
               | Presumably, that's a tradeoff the OP is willing to make.
        
             | bewuethr wrote:
             | Just a heads-up, "OneLink" is trademarked by AppsFlyer:
             | https://support.appsflyer.com/hc/en-
             | us/articles/115005248543...
        
         | samb1729 wrote:
         | It is a shame that T.LY displays only the footer without
         | JavaScript enabled instead of degrading gracefully. Surely a
         | plain HTML form that POSTs should suffice?
         | 
         | I'm not sure how much work it would require for you to support
         | this, but it would help cement your place as a good web actor
         | if you're so inclined!
        
           | TimLeland wrote:
           | Sorry about that. I honestly didn't think anyone browsed the
           | web without javascript enabled. How common is that? We do
           | offer a simple to use api that you could build on top of to
           | shorten link. Also an extension that offers the ability to
           | shorten a url in one click.
           | 
           | API Docs: https://t.ly/docs/
           | 
           | Extension: https://t.ly/extension
        
             | cosmie wrote:
             | You can actually sanity check how common it is for T.ly by
             | triggering an analytics hit within a <noscript> tag. Looks
             | like you're using GTM/GA on your site, so this[1] should
             | put you on the right track.
             | 
             | You'll still be blind to individuals that are blocking
             | GTM/GA itself since you're not using the newer server-side
             | GTM option, hence only a sanity check. But it's a fairly
             | low-effort tweak to be able to get a read on how common it
             | is for your site specifically.
             | 
             | [1] https://www.simoahava.com/analytics/track-non-
             | javascript-vis...
        
             | usr1106 wrote:
             | > I honestly didn't think anyone browsed the web without
             | javascript enabled.
             | 
             | Not very common in the general population. But there are
             | those (mostly software developers) who prefer to be in
             | control what code they run on their computers. I know one
             | person who does most browsing using lynx. That is certainly
             | extreme, but extensions like NoScript and uMatrix (has gone
             | out of maintenance recently) certainly have their user
             | base.
        
             | danielskogly wrote:
             | I realize you're not using React for t.ly, but the method I
             | outline in this[0] blog post could perhaps be made to work
             | for you if you at any point would like to accommodate users
             | without JS enabled. Yours is the kind of site that this
             | method is best suited for - a relatively simple UI with
             | basic I/O.
             | 
             | The biggest hurdle I've encountered so far, is that Stripe
             | doesn't offer a fully nojs alternative to enable users to
             | make payments, although this would be incredibly easy for
             | them to do, considering that they already offer a hosted
             | checkout[1]. The only thing missing here is a way to get
             | the checkout URL itself from the server side, when the
             | Checkout-session is generated.
             | 
             | [0] https://blog.klungo.no/2020/05/28/using-react-and-
             | redux-to-a...
             | 
             | [1] https://stripe.com/en-no/payments/checkout
        
             | Baeocystin wrote:
             | >I honestly didn't think anyone browsed the web without
             | javascript enabled. How common is that?
             | 
             | Not the person you asked, but speaking for myself, all the
             | time. I have a javascript toggle I use several times a day,
             | and leave it set to off as much as I can.
        
               | TimLeland wrote:
               | Interesting..How many sites work without javascript these
               | days? Does google?
        
               | Baeocystin wrote:
               | More than you'd think, not as many as I'd hope. Easily
               | 2/3rds of the ones I visit work, FWIW.
               | 
               | Google works fine without javascript. Stunningly fast.
        
               | sundarurfriend wrote:
               | > Easily 2/3rds of the ones I visit work, FWIW.
               | 
               | I started blocking JS a few weeks ago, and this has been
               | my experience as well - a pleasant surprise.
               | 
               | For a long time I thought that would be a step too far,
               | that browsing would become so annoying and unpredictable
               | because of it. Any annoyance from having to turn on JS
               | for individual sites is easily outweighed by the number
               | of annoyances I avoid - news websites are actually
               | readable, blogs open with their content rather than with
               | an in-your-face pop-up, and as a bonus, I pay attention
               | to things like: how many 3rd party domains is it trying
               | to connect to? does it require 3rd party JS to be enabled
               | to function at all? did they even consider the
               | possibility of disabled JS and bother to write a noscript
               | message? Things like this translate to a measure of
               | trustworthiness to me now, and I've been both horrified
               | (by simple blogs trying to connect to 80+ domains) and
               | pleasantly surprised (by complex-seeming websites that
               | don't use 3rd party JS at all).
        
               | Moru wrote:
               | It's funny when the blocker says 99+ scripts blocked on a
               | news site because it can't display more than two digits.
               | Or when you end up with a black page because they didn't
               | bother with a no-script version.
        
               | oauea wrote:
               | > Google works fine without javascript. Stunningly fast.
               | 
               | Until they block you for "suspicious behavior" after a
               | few minutes of using it like that.
        
               | Baeocystin wrote:
               | Genuine question- has that happened to you?
        
               | oauea wrote:
               | Yes! It also happens when I am not logged in, or use a
               | VPN (though that is understandable).
               | 
               | But simply disabling javascript and clicking next a few
               | times is usually enough to set off their blockages. Even
               | when not using a VPN. It happens less if you only ever
               | look at the first page.
        
               | Baeocystin wrote:
               | Interesting! Thanks for responding. I haven't had that
               | happen to me yet, but I'm often using the same static IP
               | I've had for years. Perhaps that keeps the trigger at
               | bay.
        
               | wolco2 wrote:
               | It makes sense the fingerprint you create with javascript
               | can identify you easily. Without that google treats you
               | as suspect.
        
               | nabeelms wrote:
               | DDG has a No Javascript based search.
        
               | agreeablebut wrote:
               | Plenty, and you get used to either toggling or enable the
               | specific scripts that need to run.
        
               | Icathian wrote:
               | Would you mind offering a bit more detail about the
               | "toggle"? Which browser, what's the name of the
               | extension, etc. I would love something like that but
               | don't really want to go through the effort of setting up
               | a whitelist right now.
        
               | Baeocystin wrote:
               | Sure thing, I'll edit this reply with the extension in
               | question when I get home. Won't be very long.
               | 
               | [edit] The extension is called Quick Javascript Switcher.
               | https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/quick-
               | javascript-s...
               | 
               | It works as advertised for being a Javascript toggle.
        
               | jmholla wrote:
               | Not the person you asked, but, NoScript is a choice.
               | uBlock Origin as well with the right settings. Should be
               | on Chrome or Firefox. On mobile, only the latter I think.
               | Kiwi too?
        
               | IG_Semmelweiss wrote:
               | with noscript, I blocked everything and then when sites
               | broke, I very much enjoyed figuring out what element was
               | the culprit. I became very good at remembering what
               | elements rescued what urls.
               | 
               | When i switched to Ublock origin, i didn't even realize
               | how to do this. I just allowed all JS whenever i found
               | broken sites.
               | 
               | Now, this very thread encouraged me to finally figure out
               | Ublock origin settings, and now, finally enable specific
               | JS elements instead of a blanket "allow".
               | 
               | Here is a gret userguide for Ublock origin toggle.
               | 
               | https://www.maketecheasier.com/ultimate-ublock-origin-
               | superu...
        
             | eikenberry wrote:
             | I use u-block origin on "medium" mode where you have it
             | block 3rd party javascript by default and it behaves the
             | same. Unblocking the cloudflare originating javascript
             | fixes it. I'd guess my setup is more common than having
             | javascript disabled entirely. Not a complaint, just another
             | data point.
        
               | esperent wrote:
               | Is there some reason you want to block cloudflare JS? If
               | not, wouldn't it be easier to add an exception to uBlock
               | rather than try to get devs to change their site for you?
        
               | Triv888 wrote:
               | Why would it be easier for all users to add an exception
               | instead of one site owner to make one change?
        
               | eikenberry wrote:
               | No reason, I always just add a cloudflare exception and
               | will probably look into making it a global exception as
               | it is pretty common. I was chiming in to help the site
               | dev understand the issue.. giving another data point.
        
               | Thorrez wrote:
               | There are some people who have JS disabled by default.
               | See the NoScript extension. So the dev wouldn't just be
               | changing it for eikenberry, but for all such people.
        
               | alias_neo wrote:
               | The extension is blocking 3rd party JS. Nothing against
               | Cloudflare specifically.
               | 
               | There are various reasons to block 3rd party JS;
               | security, privacy etc; CDNs and remote-linking of
               | Javascript and other such content is counter productive
               | to those endeavours.
               | 
               | A good-citizen should aim to self-host anything as
               | important as executable code _where possible_. The
               | reasons, I hope, are obvious.
        
               | TimLeland wrote:
               | Yes I do have the site behind cloudflare but could remove
               | the javascript rocket loader feature. I will look into
               | this. Thanks for sharing!
        
             | zeveb wrote:
             | > I honestly didn't think anyone browsed the web without
             | javascript enabled.
             | 
             | I know a bunch of folks have replied, but I'm another one.
             | I remember back before JavaScript; I remember when _Flash_
             | was the bane of those who cared about privacy or security;
             | I remember when  'DHTML' was the buzzword of the day.
             | 
             | I actually have a lot more appreciation for what JavaScript
             | enables now than I used to. It really is neat that we have
             | this platform-independent mostly-not-completely-insecure
             | app runtime. Pity that it is built atop what should have
             | been a hypertext system, though.
        
             | eadmund wrote:
             | > I honestly didn't think anyone browsed the web without
             | javascript enabled. How common is that?
             | 
             | I don't know how common it is, but I do. I have a secondary
             | browser profile which does allow it, but frankly for just
             | about any page I visit if it doesn't work without
             | JavaScript I will skip it: the Internet is large and I
             | rarely _need_ to look at a page.
        
             | CarVac wrote:
             | At work I'm not allowed to have any extensions so I just
             | turn Javascript off in lieu of ublock origin.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | rauhl wrote:
             | > I honestly didn't think anyone browsed the web without
             | javascript enabled.
             | 
             | I certainly do! I am _sure_ that I am very unusual, but to
             | this day I very much prefer not to grant execute
             | permissions to ever page I read. JavaScript is a huge
             | security /privacy/performance hole, and is simply not
             | needed for displaying lines of text and images, nor for
             | accepting forms data.
             | 
             | It has some pros, too, but on the whole I really miss the
             | mid-2000s Web and am not fond of all the web applications
             | out there.
        
             | phreack wrote:
             | I wouldn't say it's common, but this is the one forum where
             | a considerable amount of people disable JS when browsing
             | (and likely only whitelist few if any sites). It's always a
             | good thing to support nonetheless, so please go for it!
        
             | samb1729 wrote:
             | I browse with NoScript blocking JavaScript by default as
             | too many web developers (or their managers) have violated
             | my trust to not do Dodgy Stuff over the years.
             | Unfortunately I don't believe there will ever exist
             | accurate numbers of the true portion of people who browse a
             | subset of the web with JavaScript disabled, at least
             | partially because many of those same folks will prevent the
             | means used to collect the data in the first place.
             | 
             | It's no place for me to dictate how you do your
             | development, so I won't do that. It is however my personal
             | opinion that websites should depend on HTML and CSS, and
             | progressively enhance functionality with sprinkles of
             | JavaScript. The vast majority of websites are not
             | interactive applications, and I think modern web
             | development practices could do with something of a hard
             | reset.
             | 
             | I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide how
             | things ended up where they are now and whether it's a good
             | thing for them. Personally I think it's comical and
             | horrifying just how much compilation goes on in projects
             | written in that particular interpreted language these days!
        
               | ficklepickle wrote:
               | Do you run native phone apps? Because they are 10000x
               | worse. 75mb to display a website and 20
               | tracking/retargeting libs.
               | 
               | Apps are killing the open web anyway. People being born
               | now will grow up without knowing what the web is.
               | 
               | I agree about the state of the web tho. I'm a web dev and
               | I often browse with JS disabled and always with
               | adblocking and pihole.
        
             | sneak wrote:
             | Javascript JIT is a massive attack surface, and is disabled
             | by many on higher-assurance machines.
        
             | Moru wrote:
             | I also run script blocking on everything. And I block the
             | domains for all url shorteners in my DNS so I don't
             | accidentally go to some weird site. I also evangelize this
             | to all my customers and some actually want me to install it
             | on their computers too. Sadly there is so many pages that
             | breaks down without allowing a lot of external scripts but
             | it has to be something really important for me to bother
             | with unblocking something.
        
           | daniellarusso wrote:
           | Can you instead use the meta refresh tag?
        
             | cphoover wrote:
             | Why use meta refresh tag over a http redirect:
             | https://t.ly/home
        
             | samb1729 wrote:
             | Thorrez is correct in their interpretation of my comment,
             | so I have nothing to add there.
             | 
             | However given your username I'd like to let you know Cobra
             | Kai season 3 recently released and is as silly as ever, in
             | case you haven't already watched!
        
             | TimLeland wrote:
             | Try curl https://t.ly/c55j
             | 
             | The response is:
             | 
             | <meta http-equiv="refresh"
             | content="0;url='https://weatherextension.com/'" />
        
             | Thorrez wrote:
             | samb1729 isn't talking about viewing shortened URLs. That
             | works fine with javascript disabled. samb1729 is talking
             | about viewing the the homepage of t.ly and creating
             | shortened URLs.
             | 
             | Side note, I think a 301/302/303/307/308 redirect is better
             | than meta refresh (t.ly happens to use a 301 redirect +
             | meta refresh).
        
               | TimLeland wrote:
               | Yes T.LY uses a 301 redirect which is better for SEO for
               | the long url domain.
        
       | codefined wrote:
       | I currently host https://femto.pw/ - A URL shortener I've kept up
       | for ~4 years and intend to indefinitely. It doesn't do anything
       | with regards to tracking cookies or other dark patterns. It just
       | redirects you using a 302 redirect.
        
         | Merman_Mike wrote:
         | FYI that your site is blocked by this list:
         | https://gitlab.com/The_Quantum_Alpha/the-quantum-ad-list
         | 
         | HN post for that list here:
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25512273
        
           | codefined wrote:
           | Hm, well I've got to work out how to get off that list!
           | Thanks for giving me the heads up.
           | 
           | EDIT: I'm not sure quite how to deal with being put on ad
           | lists. Sure, people can upload any file to our host so it's
           | plausible that someone, at some point, has uploaded an
           | advert. Someone could also redirect to an advert domain and
           | we'd have no way to really deal with that unless it was
           | reported. Ideas are welcome for solutions.
        
             | Moru wrote:
             | For me the problem is that you hide URL's that I can click
             | on and have no idea where I end up. So I block all url-
             | shorteners as a principle on my pi-hole.
        
             | Hnrobert42 wrote:
             | Just some thoughts:
             | 
             | 1. Reach out to the list maintainer to see why your site
             | was added.
             | 
             | 2. Create a blocklist comprised of those ad lists. Don't
             | redirect to sites on the blocklist.
             | 
             | 3. (Of dubious practical value) Create a Terms of Service
             | that says users may not use your to link to advertisements.
        
               | Merman_Mike wrote:
               | +1 to the second suggestion as a low-effort way to make
               | some headway in staying off blocklists.
               | 
               | A place to start might be this large, very popular list
               | that combines a bunch of other lists: https://oisd.nl/
               | 
               | Actual text file is here (large file warning):
               | https://hosts.oisd.nl/
               | 
               | Just prevent your service from shortening links to any of
               | those domains.
        
               | rndomsrmn wrote:
               | You might want to consider checking for hosts listed in
               | https://github.com/notracking/hosts-blocklists
               | 
               | This is an excellent merged blocklist, with public
               | whitelist (oisd is fully closed, no insight in what is
               | whitelisted and why, also causing more false positives..)
        
               | sjhgvr wrote:
               | No longer the case: https://oisd.nl/excludes.php
        
               | TylerE wrote:
               | > 3. (Of dubious practical value) Create a Terms of
               | Service that says users may not use your to link to
               | advertisements.
               | 
               | That seems entirely unenforceable. Aren't ALL websites
               | ultimately advertisements?
        
               | recursive wrote:
               | > Aren't ALL websites ultimately advertisements?
               | 
               | No. Some are just information, art, or what-have-you.
               | Here's one I just found now.
               | 
               | https://aaron.axvigs.com/
        
               | TylerE wrote:
               | That could still be considered an advertisement of his
               | existence and writing skills.
               | 
               | If the goal is _purely_ informational, why is the author
               | 's name attached?
               | 
               | The site also _advertises_ the CMS it runs on.
               | 
               | That's my point, by a reasonable standard, ANY site that
               | exists is an advertisement for something or other, thus a
               | rule saying "no linking to advertisements" is worse than
               | useless.
        
               | kortilla wrote:
               | This must be the mindset it takes to work in the ad tech
               | industry.
               | 
               | Ads are sort of like porn. There are lots of things you
               | certainly know serve no other purpose than to advertise
               | something and you can block them outright. Native
               | advertising is certainly difficult though.
        
               | TylerE wrote:
               | Do not work, nor I have I ever worked, in ad tech.
        
               | recursive wrote:
               | I guess you have a different understanding of what
               | "advertising" is than the general understanding.
        
               | TylerE wrote:
               | advertising or ad*ver*tiz*ing [ ad-ver-tahy-zing ] - noun
               | - the act or practice of calling public attention to
               | one's product, service, need, etc.
        
               | recursive wrote:
               | I believe it's possible for a website to exist without
               | calling attention to anything.
               | 
               | Or perhaps you believe the mere existence of information
               | is a call for attention.
        
               | obventio56 wrote:
               | Doesn't all content exist to receive attention?
               | 
               | I think there would be exceptions, like test sites,
               | personal experiments etc. that could make it on to the
               | internet without seeking attention, but any content
               | designed for consumption is attention-seeking.
        
               | recursive wrote:
               | > Doesn't all content exist to receive attention?
               | 
               | Maybe. Attention can also be granted without it have been
               | called there. There are also websites not designed for
               | consumption.
               | 
               | If every website is advertising, then surely most of
               | human discourse and activity would also be considered
               | advertising. What's even the purpose of the word?
               | 
               | You're not going to convince me that everything is an ad,
               | and I probably won't convince you either. I'm not
               | interested in playing any further semantic word games.
               | I'll read any replies you make if you choose to, but I
               | have nothing more to offer in this thread.
        
               | obventio56 wrote:
               | I agree that not everything is an ad. I think the parent
               | comment is fairly trite.
               | 
               | I do believe all content made for consumption (even
               | purely informational content) is attention-seeking.
        
               | [deleted]
        
           | miked85 wrote:
           | That list is questionable at best.
           | 
           | There are many claims the list author makes without any
           | source code at all, though a lot of buzzwords. The reddit
           | r/pihole moderator pulled the post: https://www.reddit.com/r/
           | pihole/comments/kh5dit/the_quantum_... . The thread was more
           | entertaining before the list author deleted every downvoted
           | comment they made.
        
             | Jap2-0 wrote:
             | [0] is perhaps even more concerning - apparently it bears a
             | striking resemblance to Steven Black's (slightly more
             | reputable) list[1] [edit: plus a few hundred thousand other
             | rules of questionable sourcing].
             | 
             | [0] https://gitlab.com/The_Quantum_Alpha/the-quantum-ad-
             | list/-/i...
             | 
             | https://github.com/StevenBlack/hosts/issues/1487
             | 
             | [1] https://github.com/StevenBlack/hosts
        
             | Merman_Mike wrote:
             | I agree that it's questionable. I commented the same in the
             | thread I linked:
             | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25513161
             | 
             | However, at least for Pi-Hole users, more is _usually_
             | better, so I added the list to my Pi-Hole.
        
               | phire wrote:
               | _> > We were testing an AI that could show some basic
               | emotions about internet content, and turns out it was
               | very precise at getting "annoyed" by ads and
               | "unsolicited" third party connections..._
               | 
               | Holy shit that's such bullshit.
               | 
               | They are basically claiming they invented a artificial
               | general intelligence, with feelings, that happens to feel
               | the same way about ads as us. It's basically sentient
               | instead of publishing research papers, they turned it
               | into an ad blocker.
        
               | srtjstjsj wrote:
               | It's just colorful language for the fact that ads and
               | spyware score high on their model for bad websites.
        
               | phire wrote:
               | First: Marketing bullshit is still bullshit.
               | 
               | Even if it's not morally wrong, it makes you look like an
               | idiot who doesn't understand the technology you are
               | selling. In the worst case it might even be used as
               | evidence that your work is a fraud.
               | 
               | There is no benefit; To the lay person, It would sound
               | just as impressive to say "We trained a machine learning
               | model to detect ads and spyware" and that wouldn't
               | immediately set off alarm bells with people familiar with
               | the current state of machine learning.
               | 
               | Second: Talking about fraud, the evidence linked above is
               | pretty strong.
               | 
               | Their alleged AI is somehow detecting test domains that
               | authors of other lists as "ads or spyware". Test domains
               | that aren't linked anywhere on the internet.
               | 
               | In one "smoking gun" example, the test domain doesn't
               | even have a DNS entry. The alleged AI can't even load the
               | domain to scan it.
        
               | llacb47 wrote:
               | No, more is not usually better. Especially with a garbage
               | ""AI-generated"" (not) list with untrustworthy
               | maintainers like this one. It's better to add a low
               | number of lists with trusted maintainers, who actively
               | curate their lists and respond to false positives. That
               | means no "mega-list" abominations like oisd.nl.
               | 
               | I suggest: https://www.github.developerdan.com/hosts/
               | 
               | https://gitlab.com/curben/urlhaus-
               | filter/raw/master/urlhaus-...
               | 
               | https://raw.githubusercontent.com/notracking/hosts-
               | blocklist...
               | 
               | https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anudeepND/blacklist/mas
               | ter...
        
               | Merman_Mike wrote:
               | Can you explain why more is not usually better?
               | 
               | I added the 4 lists you recommended to my Pi-Hole, which
               | added a net new 73,253 domains to my Pi-Hole. My total is
               | now close to 2M.
        
               | PixyMisa wrote:
               | You could just blacklist *.com and be done with it.
        
               | freebuju wrote:
               | You joke but I would be most happy if all my web needs
               | could be served on .onion addresses
        
         | q3k wrote:
         | What happens to it when you die? Do you have a contingency plan
         | to export this data somewhere for archival purposes?
        
           | codefined wrote:
           | I've worked with the Internet Archive to ensure continuity if
           | I get hit by a bus or anything. A list of all items that have
           | been uploaded to the site will be provided to them if
           | anything happens to me.
        
       | tsjq wrote:
       | Pls pardon my ignorance.
       | 
       | Is this not addressed by blocking all 3rd party cookies at the
       | Browser ?
        
       | tomaszs wrote:
       | I am not surprised. URL shorteners will try to monetize
       | eventually. One way is to support ad networks, other is to show
       | ads and videos before navigating to the target URL. I am 100%
       | sure TOS allow it since the beginning.
       | 
       | As far it seems to be a grim future, it is almost only way they
       | can monetize. Otherwise they will close their businesses
       | rendering millions of URLs broken, what I think is the future
       | that is too easy to predict.
        
         | donmcronald wrote:
         | > As far it seems to be a grim future, it is almost only way
         | they can monetize.
         | 
         | Bitly charges $30/month (basic) which seems like an outrageous
         | amount of money to me for what it does. How much more
         | monetization do they need?
        
         | bobdosherman wrote:
         | Could also cross-subsidize by being a sub-affiliate network as
         | part of an affiliate network. Company earns percentage of
         | affiliate commissions produced by in-network links, which
         | subsidize the non-commissionable out-of-network links (and non-
         | earning in-network links).
        
       | okprod wrote:
       | Is yourls.org an alternative? Requires some work though
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | npunt wrote:
       | _Everything_ that sits between you and your destination is a
       | middleman tracking you, unless proven otherwise.
        
         | HenryKissinger wrote:
         | (Astronaut looking at planet Earth) "Wait, it's all trackers?"
        
           | castratikron wrote:
           | (Stallman) "Always has been"
        
       | m00x wrote:
       | The title should be "TinyURL sets ad tracking cookies" as this is
       | the only one proven to do in this article.
       | 
       | There are tons of URL shorteners, and not all of them do this.
        
         | firloop wrote:
         | bit.ly and t.co both do, and they're hugely popular. I just
         | left the HTTP responses out of the post for brevity. From the
         | post:
         | 
         | >While neither redirect you to an advertising company like
         | TinyURL, Twitter's primary business model is advertising, and
         | bit.ly's privacy policy says they share data with third parties
         | to "...provide advertising products and services..."
         | 
         | Both services set long-lived tracking cookies:
         | curl -v 'http://bit.ly/aFzVh0'         ...         < Location: 
         | http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2010/08/hear_katy_perrys_m
         | ilk_milk_lem.html         < Set-Cookie:
         | _bit=l03lLp-b899a3350a02095760-00P; Domain=bit.ly; Expires=Fri,
         | 02 Jul 2021 21:47:25 GMT              curl -v
         | 'https://t.co/45cMiYOHQ8'         ...         < location:
         | https://luke.cat/         < set-cookie:
         | muc=6d0d0800-f738-4704-b292-f03b6e5a5f91; Max-Age=63072000;
         | Expires=Tue, 03 Jan 2023 21:49:09 GMT; Domain=t.co; Secure;
         | SameSite=None
        
       | jrochkind1 wrote:
       | They could of course be sharing the click "back channel" with the
       | ad network without any visible redirect at all, and still
       | capturing just as much data. I guess it couldn't actually set a
       | cookie with the viglink.com domain though.
       | 
       | Is that important enough to risk being "found out", or do they
       | just not care that much about being found out, so went with the
       | somewhat technically easier to implement but visible to end-user
       | option?
        
       | wolco2 wrote:
       | Not my personal url shortener.
        
       | calmchaos wrote:
       | Use Cookiebro webextension to get rid of such tracking cookies
       | automatically. Problem solved.
       | 
       | https://nodetics.com/cookiebro
        
       | l1am0 wrote:
       | For exactly this problem I did build https://unshort.link
       | 
       | It is a service that unshortens the url and removes (if possible)
       | the tracking parameters.
       | 
       | It is GPL3, allows Easy Self Hosting and has an automatic browser
       | plug-in
        
       | appleflaxen wrote:
       | His GDPR letter is quite well written, too
       | 
       | https://ylukem.com/files/_viglink-gdpr-email.png
        
         | 1f60c wrote:
         | I think they used this template:
         | https://www.datarequests.org/blog/sample-letter-gdpr-access-...
        
       | davchana wrote:
       | I had been using a personal URL shortener on & off since 2009.
       | Bit.ly custom domain, goo.gl, yourls on a php server, bit.do, &
       | many others. Even a static site Jekyll powered one at
       | https://gitlab.com/davch/static-redirect
       | 
       | I could not use YOURLS because its too much maintenance
       | demanding, like any other php script. Server vulnerabilities,
       | versions, errors. Bitly custom domain because you can't customize
       | the word after slash. Its still going to be random. Bit.do was/is
       | fun, & good.
       | 
       | Then I got introduced to Firebase, at that time recently acquired
       | by Google. Dynamic Links, with myWord.page.link subdomain. I got
       | few, 5 max subdomains were allowed initially. I made two
       | projects, & total have 8 subdomains with page.link ending. Now
       | they even allow custom domains, & it is even default option. I am
       | using that not from about 2-3 years.
        
       | cccspr wrote:
       | I noticed that share buttons like sharethis and addthis do it
       | also. I bet if you look deep into their privacy policy (which no
       | one does) it'll vaguely mention their data acquisition and
       | "monetization" usage.
        
         | freebuju wrote:
         | The worst kind. These ones will outright share (and profit
         | from) your social profile data to advertisers.
        
       | rsync wrote:
       | Although "Oh By"[1] is not strictly a URL shortener it can be
       | used as one quite nicely.
       | 
       | When used as a URL shortener, there are no cookies, no tracking,
       | and ublock origin shows a nice big zero throughout. This is
       | because the revenue model of Oh By is selling custom/vanity codes
       | - not monetizing user data or advertising.
       | 
       | "If you're looking for a dead-simple URL shortener that respects
       | your privacy and doesn't slow you down with ads or multi-megabyte
       | interstitial pages, Oh By might be for you."[2]
       | 
       | [1] https://0x.co
       | 
       | [2] https://0x.co/faq.html
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | bobkrusty wrote:
         | . You have to type http:// on the message field To make a
         | redirect
        
           | rsync wrote:
           | Yes, correct.
           | 
           | The typical use case is a human message, not a URL. If you
           | want a redirect you need to explicitly prefix it like that...
        
       | madars wrote:
       | Wow! https://preview.tinyurl.com/examplezoom really shows
       | https://zoom.us/j/123456789 link whereas Chrome network inspector
       | confirms the viglink.com redirect. uBlock origin blocks the
       | latter via Dan Pollock's hosts file and Peter Lowe's Ad and
       | tracking server list.
        
         | fireattack wrote:
         | Tried in a new profile and didn't see any viglink.com.
         | 
         | Edit: the link should be https://tinyurl.com/examplezoom (which
         | does have viglink.com).
         | 
         | For some reason you wrote the preview link,
         | https://preview.tinyurl.com/examplezoom, which does _not_ have
         | the tracker.
        
           | 1f60c wrote:
           | I think that's their point: preview.tinyurl.com is lying to
           | you.
        
             | fireattack wrote:
             | Ah, I misunderstood.
             | 
             | TBF I think they have direct link on preview page simply
             | because they don't want to track the traffic from these
             | pages (instead of trying to disguise), but the practice is
             | still bad.
        
         | 1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote:
         | As someone who uses a whitelist approach, I am curious whether
         | people ever experience false positives or missing entries with
         | these lists? I have little experince with those lists except
         | for going through one of them once and being shocked at what
         | was in there.
         | 
         | The setup I use is customised for me, i.e., Rube Goldberg would
         | be proud. I can view and manipulate all traffic from outside
         | the application and outside the origin computer. I can strip
         | cookies based on IP, domain or URL very easily. I also control
         | DNS so only domains I approve would even return an IP address.
        
           | blackbear_ wrote:
           | That sounds so cool, I'd love to know more about your setup!
        
           | samb1729 wrote:
           | What is the user interface for your setup like? It sounds
           | attractive but possibly prohibitively frictious to be
           | workable for me.
           | 
           | I currently use a combination of uBlock Origin blacklisting,
           | NoScript whitelisting, and Little Snitch alerting, if you
           | need a baseline to compare. I've also run a Pihole instance
           | in the past to loop my phone in, but that's not running as of
           | today.
        
             | 1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote:
             | No GUI.
             | 
             | I think what I have created is something like a cross
             | between Pi-Hole, Burp and something yet to be named. But
             | it's faster, more flexible, uses different software and is
             | Java-free.
        
               | samb1729 wrote:
               | Sorry if I was unclear, I wasn't asking about a GUI. I
               | mean how do you interface with it as the user? I assume
               | it isn't just something you launch and forget about given
               | your description.
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | wodenokoto wrote:
           | There are many false positives or grey negatives when using
           | those filters.
           | 
           | But it mostly happen during these kinds of redirects where
           | one or more actors wants to be in the redirect loop. This
           | could be URL shorteners or price comparison websites.
           | 
           | uBlock asks if you want a one time exception when a redirect
           | leads you to a blocked url.
        
       | everdrive wrote:
       | Why do url shorteners even exist? They literally add no benefit
       | whatsoever.
        
         | Can_Not wrote:
         | Malicious links can have warning pages instead of redirects,
         | malicious url shorteners can change URLs after they were
         | promoted.
        
         | aembleton wrote:
         | Simpler qr codes that can be read by your phone at a greater
         | distance or with more error correction.
         | 
         | Text messages where going over a character limit adds to the
         | cost
        
         | mattwad wrote:
         | not everything supports HTML, like calendar invites and SMS
         | messages, and some of these things have character limits.
        
         | freebuju wrote:
         | For ex. I can literally type the short url in a browser when
         | using a different device. It's convenient uses cannot be
         | understated.
        
       | lilyball wrote:
       | Isn't this kind of redirection to set a cookie something
       | explicitly blocked by Safari's Block Cross-Site Tracking feature?
       | And I believe Firefox introduced a similar feature as well (not
       | sure about Chrome). I feel like this kind of redirect thing was
       | explicitly called out in the blog post announcing the very first
       | version of this feature.
        
       | hooande wrote:
       | If I recall correctly, Viglink does affiliate marketing.
       | Essentially they are setting an affiliate cookie to make money
       | from anything you purchase on Amazon, Walmart.com, Ebay, etc.
       | This cookie will override any other that was already set. So if
       | you clicked a link to a book from a blog post and then clicked on
       | a tinyurl, they would get the affiliate referral money and not
       | the blog.
       | 
       | It's an easy way to make money because it doesn't involve a long
       | sales process with major advertisers. Viglink does all that.
       | tinyurl, bitly, et al are probably making a fair amount given
       | their reach
        
         | dannyw wrote:
         | Basically:
         | 
         | 1. TinyURL does not give Zoom any more customers than they
         | would have had otherwise.
         | 
         | 2. Zoom pays VigLinks and TinyURL.
         | 
         | 3. An incompetent, or unethical performance marketer gets to
         | claim to their boss they are driving X upgrades for $Y when in
         | reality they are driving 0 incremental upgrades for $Y.
        
       | ForHackernews wrote:
       | How is this news in 2021?
       | 
       | I remember going to talks by tech people at link-shortener
       | companies (bit.ly, IIRC) in like 2012 where they were talking
       | about all the fancy analytics and tracking they offered and why
       | it was so great that you should route all your links through them
       | to get more "insight" into visitors.
        
       | sanmak wrote:
       | I think these guys do this to pay for their servers, infra and
       | salaries if any. One of the business model.
       | 
       | I think we have ton of url shortener available in the market.
       | Difficult to point one which is 100% safe and secure.
        
       | vitus wrote:
       | Tinyurl actually has a preview feature, which you can enable by
       | default.
       | 
       | https://preview.tinyurl.com/examplezoom
       | 
       | Curiously, this specific tracking behavior (both the redirect and
       | the cookie) goes away when turning on previews.
       | 
       | (Incidentally, my uBlock origin filters block the VigLink
       | redirect as a tracker, by default, as a sibling commenter points
       | out.)
        
       | reilly3000 wrote:
       | I honestly thought that was common knowledge. Like why else would
       | you use a URL shortener, since Twitter started doing it on their
       | own?
       | 
       | I can do more to help web users understand trackers... perhaps I
       | will work on that this year.
       | 
       | I've worked in and around the space for too long to see outside
       | of my bubble.
        
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       (page generated 2021-01-04 23:01 UTC)