[HN Gopher] You're Never Too Old to Become a Beginner
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You're Never Too Old to Become a Beginner
Author : wallflower
Score : 105 points
Date : 2021-01-01 17:15 UTC (5 hours ago)
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| simonw wrote:
| Many years ago I heard about someone who started learning the
| piano at 70 and was a concert pianist at 80. That's stuck in my
| head ever since as a counter argument to any time that I think
| it's too late for me to start learning something new.
| drzaiusapelord wrote:
| That's both inspiring and horrifying. I'm a little older than
| the demographic here and sometimes see myself on this somewhat
| stressful hamster wheel of "Okay I tired of x, now I should
| explore y." Then y becomes tiresome and I move on to z. Over
| and over. I wondered when that would end. I guess it never
| does. No one talks about what happens when your life becomes
| steady. You just get unsatisfied in other ways so then your
| hobbies take over. Worse, if you don't do anything like this
| and just become a TV/social media addict then you brain ages
| worse than being a productive forever learner. I think about
| the Buddhist idea of suffering and being forever unsatisfied
| here a lot and wonder if the meditation crowd has this better
| figured out.
| derekp7 wrote:
| When you are young and inexperienced, you don't know the
| difficulty of a subject. So as long as each step you take to
| advance your skill is achievable, and the feedback loop is good
| enough, you'll keep going. But as soon as you realize that you've
| only scratched maybe 1% of what is needed for mastery (when prior
| to that realization you felt like you were 90% there), it can be
| difficult to keep going.
|
| As you get older and more experienced you get exposed to many
| things that appear to be "easy" but you then find out how much
| work it is (after you've sunk a bunch of time and effort into
| it). After enough of this exposure you realize that any skill
| that isn't realized by a majority of the population takes an
| immense amount of dedication and opportunity cost. So after a
| while you tend to stick with what you already know (sunk cost).
|
| Of course your life satisfaction can improve with more skills you
| have, especially if they are skills that don't become too
| obsolete. For example being able to do some maintenance on your
| car (brake job, oil change, tire rotations, radiator flush...)
| can save money at a mechanic. And being able to take apart a
| sewer trap under a sink to clean out the hair clog is better than
| pouring a strong alkaline solution down the drain and hoping it
| works.
|
| So it is really important to learn enough life skills while you
| are young to help build up a health and satisfying life later.
| mjklin wrote:
| "The passionate state of mind is often indicative of a lack of
| skill, talent or power. Moreover, passionate intensity can
| serve as a substitute for the confidence born of proficiency
| and the possession of power. A workingman sure of his skill
| goes leisurely about his job, and accomplishes much though he
| works as if at play. On the other hand, the workingman who is
| without confidence attacks his work as if he were saving the
| world, and he must do so if he is to get anything done." - Eric
| Hoffer, _The Passionate State of Mind_
| hndudette2 wrote:
| Scott Adams has a way of thinking about this that he casts as
| "Systems vs Goals", where he advocates developing a talent
| stack of skills that work well together towards unspecified,
| undefined future goals. He says his talent stack is
| comedian+cartoonist, he's not amazing at either individual
| skill but he's one of the best at the combination which allowed
| him to create Dilbert.
|
| I got value from this way of thinking but I also think specific
| goals are necessary (e.g. as a startup founder targeting a
| specific market, product or vision) and that there are some
| domains that demand you to be the best in a single talent
| vertical due to a winner take all tendency (e.g. athelete,
| musician, professional gambler - although in any of these we
| can still distinguish systems & talent stacks from goals).
| paulpauper wrote:
| This is good advice. the hard part is finding the skills you
| can intersect
| WalterBright wrote:
| Skills one might think have nothing in common can have
| surprising intersections.
|
| For example, my training as a mechanical engineer and 3
| years spent working on a gearbox design for the 757 have
| had a significant positive effect on my programming and the
| design of the D language.
|
| It gives me a unique advantage.
| hndudette2 wrote:
| I think Adam's approach is mostly lacking deliberation,
| it's only after the fact that the synergy is realized but
| it's hard to intentionally engineer it.
|
| I can definitely see the validity in the other school of
| thought though; i.e. that we should deliberately seek out
| synergistic talent verticals. I know this is Conor
| Mcgregor's approach, he's very much systems over goals (in
| Adam's vein, and explicitly so) but is deliberate about the
| specific talent stack he's working towards. Ironically it
| is all done towards a specific goal (to be the best
| fighter) although the path towards that goal is
| underspecified.
|
| Here's a very common talent stack here on HN that works
| pretty well: math + CS + data science + one domain (e.g.
| finance or biology).
| dan-robertson wrote:
| There's an opposite view argued here:
| https://danluu.com/p95-skill/ with the claim that it isn't
| _that_ hard to get to 95%ile of many activities but that this
| level of skill is still useful.
| Cribbin wrote:
| Well the counter-argument to that is: why do you need to
| achieve mastery? You can be happy with the slow progress you
| make along the way. You don't need to be Picasso to enjoy
| painting.
| nerdponx wrote:
| I don't think most people strive for _mastery_. But many
| things just aren 't that fun or satisfying if you don't at
| least achieve competence.
|
| A lot of hobbies, crafts, and activities really only start to
| become fun (rather than "rewarding but tiring") when you
| start to get good at them, because you have to think/work
| less hard to achieve basic satisfying outcomes.
| tmh88j wrote:
| >I don't think most people strive for mastery. But many
| things just aren't that fun or satisfying if you don't at
| least achieve competence.
|
| Learning how to play the guitar was frustrating for me, but
| my stubbornness to be able to play the music I listened to
| is what kept me going. I'm constantly listening to music
| and I knew I would enjoy it in the long run so I'm glad I
| stuck with it, but man, the first hundred hours or so of
| learning honestly wasn't enjoyable to me. I love it now but
| it felt like a chore at the time.
| WalterBright wrote:
| I always laugh when people remark that some dancer "makes
| it look easy". Because it _is_ easy when you 've trained
| enough. And the more you train at it, the funner it gets.
| mudita wrote:
| What style of dance do you mean?
|
| I think this "making it look easy" is probably most
| relevant for ballet, where high level dancers still train
| very "basic" movements or use a lot of muscular effort to
| create the illusion of lightness etc.
| Retric wrote:
| Yea, the counter to mastery is the realization that you can
| get to a useful place in most areas with 100 hours or less of
| effort.
|
| It's nowhere near enough time to become say a short order
| cook, but plenty of time to learn to make bacon and eggs for
| breakfast in whatever specific way you want it.
| _huayra_ wrote:
| Learning when to stop at a satisfactory level is equally
| hard as learning when to floor it and push against some
| difficult goal.
|
| I think even 100 honest hours learning something will get
| you further than you probably need to go, e.g. basic home
| maintenance stuff that is just 1. find the right youtube
| video, 2. have the tools, 3. don't be a moron.
|
| god knows that my far beyond satisfactory level of dotfile
| / config tweaking has probably paid fewer dividends than
| I'd like to think...
| unlaxedneurotic wrote:
| Not being a moron is a skill that is getting harder to
| find everyday.
| cheschire wrote:
| Your first sentence stands well on its own. I suspect if
| you shadowed a short order cook for 2.5x 40 hour work
| weeks, you would be able to function as a short order cook
| yourself. The entire point of that job is to prepare food
| that takes a short time to deliver. This means lots of rote
| tasks which can be performed rapidly.
| ehnto wrote:
| Even Picasso was a jack of many trades. I am in no position
| to decide whether or not he was a master in every field by
| the end of his life, but I know for certain he was mediocre
| at all of them at some point.
| alimw wrote:
| You'd have to go back into his very early childhood to find
| a time when he couldn't paint.
| nerdponx wrote:
| I find this is true for the handful of multi-talented
| people I know in my personal life. They truly have innate
| talent/ability in at least one area. Sometimes they have
| a remarkable ability to learn new things quicker than
| most people, other times they have to work hard for
| everything else, but they always have their natural
| talent to fall back on, in times of duress or limited
| energy. I'd be interested to see some research in this
| area.
| rland wrote:
| I'm not sure.
|
| I know a lot of seemingly "talented" people. How do they
| pick up a new instrument in 2-3 months? Or be able to
| balance on a skateboard after just a little while? Or get
| kills better than me with only 200 CS GO hours clocked?
|
| The answer is always that they spent a lot of focused
| time earlier in life, or that they spend a lot of time
| that I wasn't aware of -- like I find out that they have
| 2500 hours in CS:S on another account... yeah that makes
| a lot more sense.
|
| I don't believe innate talent exists. Other than that
| some people are mentally quicker, or have faster
| reflexes, or are physically more capable -- "general"
| things. But talent exists only from both hard work and
| time, which for many things can start at age 2 or 3.
| [deleted]
| agumonkey wrote:
| I think adults become seekers of efficient learning. You know
|
| 1) time is limited
|
| 2) the map is huge
|
| 3) the topic might be totally unknown
|
| You have to devise ways to explore neither too fast nor too
| slow.
| rmelhem wrote:
| having changed profession completely 3 times in the last 10
| years, I need to completely agree with the article
| pgp00 wrote:
| Never too young either... I guess never a bad time!
| yrimaxi wrote:
| Going by some sentiments on this site, too old is when you pass
| the age of twelve and haven't by some innate instinct been drawn
| to hacker/tinkerdom.
| tmh88j wrote:
| Silicon Valley captured this perfectly
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdXKdRoB9Wk&t=1m10s
| wowlookatme wrote:
| It's quite ironic the kid is a fraud.
| paulpauper wrote:
| >From queuing to Zoom to mask etiquette, we were faced with an
| unsettling societal learning curve.
|
| The biggest nuisance with masks was forgetting to bring it with
| me when I go out. Now I just always keep one in my pocket.
| DizzyDoo wrote:
| What are people from the community here going to start to learn
| for the first time this year? I'd be interested on hearing a
| range of different plans; creative, personal, business, technical
| and so on.
| rimliu wrote:
| Piano. I am 48, but I love learning new things. Playing
| instrument is something what I wanted to do for a looong time.
| Bought myself an electric guitar last year, and I do practice a
| bit, but have nothing to show for it now. It appears to be
| going a bit easier with a piano (I still do practice guitar).
| Not willing to stick to self-learning only I've already made an
| arrangement with a piano teacher, will have my lessons when the
| quarantine is lifted. For now SimplePiano and Flowkey will do.
|
| Last year was when I got hooked on astrophotography, going very
| well so far (I have good skills at photography and image
| processing so it was way easier). Brought some satisfaction for
| not finishing my astrophysics PhD program.
| vharuck wrote:
| I'm going to continue learning Japanese. Focusing more on
| reading instead of just flash cards.
|
| I've also set a five-year goal to get a creative work
| published. The first two years will be dedicated to reading
| more good works and writing more (likely terrible) things. Not
| planning beyond the first two, because that'll likely change
| when I understand more about how one goes about getting
| published.
|
| Even if I give up after a year, I'll have enjoyed the prep
| work.
| KineticLensman wrote:
| In 2020, after 30 years in IT / simulation, I started as a
| volunteer in a raptor conservancy. It's an outdoor job: in rain
| or shine, hot or cold, the birds still need their aviaries
| cleaning, and the weeds in the grounds don't stop growing. The
| experts on the bird team are perhaps 30 years younger than me,
| and I will never be as good as they are at handling prima-donna
| falcons and flying-psychopath eagles. This has been a superb
| exercise in learning humility and the need to earn respect
| based on getting menial jobs done rather than one's past
| glories.
|
| The pay off is the privilege of being able to help with the
| flying displays, and having these stunning birds fly to you
| over the heads of the excited audience when you correctly give
| the "I've got food" signal they've been trained to recognise.
|
| > What are people from the community here going to start to
| learn for the first time this year
|
| Continuing learning how to handle these magnificent animals and
| to work with them to create impressive experience for the
| visitors.
| nxc18 wrote:
| I've got a few plans that involved substantial learning. I try
| to get a head start on New Years, this time specifically
| because I moved cities and that's a great opportunity to build
| new habits.
|
| 1. I'm forcing myself to push through with Linux on the desktop
| and managing a more robust network. This will help with 2. It's
| going pretty well so far. The big insight has been to work
| around some of the harder parts rather than punish myself; e.g.
| I just don't use the intel graphics and the nvidia graphics
| simultaneously. I bought a DisplayPort cable so I can use two
| monitors with my one nvidia card. Next up, I want to get a
| setup where I can run my self-hosted services reliably across
| several devices. I may do a kubernetes type setup across
| several raspberry pi servers and possibly a new dedicated x86
| box. I've never used kubernetes so figuring out if that's crazy
| will be part of the learning process.
|
| 2. I've always a wanted to take on a real-life 3D mapping
| project. I've got a 360 camera on the way, which I'll be using
| at first with mapillary, then self-hosting with openstreetcam.
| The pieces are all there to build 3D models from that content,
| so that will be my opportunity to really learn how that stuff
| works and make it happen. I love the city at night so I'd like
| to build a full nighttime map if possible; it looks totally
| different than during the day, but there's enough artificial
| light I think it should be possible, if not practical.
|
| 3. I've outfitted my kitchen and am committing myself to
| cooking all but one or two meals a week, and to try to do that
| well. I suck really bad, but I'm starting to build an intuition
| for how basic bread works, I've had some mild success with
| quick breads and am also starting to have intuition for corn
| bread specifically. I made butter chicken on Monday for the
| first time, from a recipe that suspiciously used no butter. It
| came out great but not quite like I'm used to at restaurants; I
| look forward to trying again. I'd love to get into sweets and
| pastries like croissants. Biggest lesson learned so far: hand-
| rolled butter is worth every last penny, despite being twice as
| expensive than the usual butter. It has a depth and complexity
| of flavor more like cheddar than the mass-produced stuff.
|
| 4. I'm learning piano and music theory through that. It is a
| lot of fun, but certainly not easy. This is the first time in a
| while I've get viscerally what it's like to be a child learning
| to walk - getting my hands to do the right thing at the right
| time is very difficult, especially with two-handed playing.
| I've also been amazed at how quickly ability builds with
| regular practice. I still suck really bad, but I'm getting what
| I wanted out of it, including a deeper appreciation of the
| music I listen to, the ability to read very simple sheet music,
| and honestly just a humbling challenge. I highly recommend it
| if you haven't learned music already; it so so different from
| my usual skills that it really is like building from scratch.
| The process is physically exhausting because of the amount of
| effort it takes to operate my hands and not press the wrong
| keys. I feel like I can feel how much my brain is changing to
| build those new pathways.
| _huayra_ wrote:
| It may be a meme, but using Gentoo for the first time. I did
| Linux From Scratch in a VM and it piqued my curiosity. Although
| I would prefer Nix or Guix due to their interesting declarative
| approach, I decided to go for Gentoo so I can have a better
| understanding of how to tweak the heck out of a real system.
|
| Also, probably getting more up-to-date on C++. I have let my
| skills slack, and some of the new things in C++20 seem
| intriguing. The only issue here is finding a good project to
| work on. Doing interview-style problems is basically "how to
| use the standard library proficiently in the scope of one file,
| and probably just ~5 methods", and other things seem difficult
| to approach. This seems very different from the clear
| progression one finds in other popular languages.
|
| (If anyone has any suggestions for such projects, please do
| share. I could use some help)
| DoofusOfDeath wrote:
| C++ has been my main programming language for the last 20+
| years. (Dang this makes me feel old.)
|
| For my paid work (at multiple jobs), I've never been allowed
| to use C++ newer than C++11. At first it was due to
| incomplete compiler support, and later on it was because
| various customers were using older versions of RHEL whose
| _standard_ version of GCC was something like 4.8.
|
| Anyone else experiencing this?
| jcelerier wrote:
| the vast majority of C++ dev out there is >= 11 per
| https://www.jetbrains.com/lp/devecosystem-2019/cpp/ with
| C++14 / 17 being regularly used by >60% of respondants.
|
| Large libraries such as Qt now require C++17.
| artificialLimbs wrote:
| At 40, after having a kid with my wife a couple years ago, I've
| just started getting serious about learning to program, after a
| lifetime of lazily dabbling in various i.t. things. Am now
| enrolled in uni to finish my bach in CS, which is also where I
| work.
|
| Have also began to learn about investing in 2020 and have had a
| lot of fun doing that. Highly recommend the Investing for
| Beginners podcast with Andrew Sather and Dave Ahern if you
| don't know anything (like me).
|
| Not afraid to say I've been contributing time to a nonprofit
| arts organization in my area, and have gotten on its board of
| directors. I run their web site and we're doing a frontend
| overhaul/server swap/Cloudflare DNS setup this month.
| Admittedly a bit scared because I've done this on my own setups
| but not on a site that gets traffic. Onward to 2021!
| HalcyonicStorm wrote:
| I'm planning on learning Unreal Engine this year. I had
| purchased some courses on Udemy including the Unreal Engine C++
| Developer course. I've been wanting to pick this up for a while
| so my personal OKR is to finish this course in the next 3
| months.
| verma7 wrote:
| I am planning to learn how to write better. I am starting that
| by maintaining a stream of consciousness personal daily log.
| Also get more practice by commenting on Hacker News :)
| Cribbin wrote:
| I know I plan to pick up sewing this year. It isn't something
| I've ever given any thought, but I've fallen down a rabbit hole
| in the last few weeks and am excited to start mending my own
| clothes and creating new outfits.
| thn-gap wrote:
| One of my favorite things in life is to get into a rabbit
| hole of a new hobby. This usually comes with lots of energy
| from the excitement and learning something new.
|
| I also love listening to friends and others talk about
| whatever hobby they are deep into. It's fascinating how
| almost anything can become someone's main hobby and passion.
| scarecrowbob wrote:
| I've been trying to work on my outdoor skills... I already rock
| climb and ski a little bit. I am hoping to learn to lead easy
| ice climbs and get into the backcountry to ski this winter,
| including some overnight trips. We got out today, booted up a
| snowy canyon... only to find no ice. Oh well, that is the
| process: we just keep going out and doing progressively more
| difficult goals, and try not to get killed in a slide or a
| fall.
|
| Also, my company has hired someone to work directly under me,
| so I hope to learn to be a competent manager, which I've never
| done in a formal situation. I've been reading a lot and
| reflecting on my own experiences, and have been documenting our
| processes. I will have a plan to onboard the new person soon.
|
| Finally, if the covid situation eases up later in the year, I
| hope to return to performing music. I've been in a lot of bands
| and performed solo, or even one-off gigs with other musicians,
| but I hope to be able to build a band that a) I am fronting for
| > 80% of the material and b) brings in some income beyond what
| it takes to operate. That part of the business has its own set
| of learning curves, at least as far as I can tell from my years
| as a semi-professional side guy. The plan there is to start as
| a solo performer and gradually add other musicians, using low-
| rent bar gigs as rehearsals, but I am not sure how that will
| work out.
| Swizec wrote:
| The best time to plant a tree is 10 years ago. The second best is
| now.
|
| In some years you'll be 40. Time passes whether you use it or
| not. Try to use it.
|
| The hard part is realizing when it's time to become a beginner
| (because you've stopped growing) and try something new. Choosing
| the new thing is tough.
| hotcrossbunny wrote:
| -> In some years you'll be 40 ...noting value for "some" may
| not necessarily be positive
| Swizec wrote:
| Yep, 10 years ago I wouldve used "30". It's a useful mindset
| at any age. You aren't done until you say you're done.
| deltron3030 wrote:
| >The hard part is realizing when it's time to become a beginner
| (because you've stopped growing) and try something new.
|
| You know it's time when you look back at things you did years
| ago and find them still pretty stunning. The future within that
| discipline can only hold different variations of that feeling.
| The only way to change this is by branching out and come back
| with fresh perspectives.
| paulpauper wrote:
| no, it would be 9 years ago, 8 years ago, etc.
|
| That is my favorite rebuttal to that overused quote
| sethammons wrote:
| Reminds me of, "war is not the answer." It really depends on
| the question! "What is a three letter word for..."
| agumonkey wrote:
| 3 years ago ~ I powered an led on a breadboard. It felt more
| magical than deriving a y combinator in my own lambda calculus.
| Strange (and beautiful feeling (and counter intuitive))
| cabaalis wrote:
| I saw an advertisement for an "apprenticeship" at a UK game
| development tool company that I'm a fan of. It said applicants
| must be aged 16 to 24. Is that standard practice in UK? How is
| that not age descrimination?
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