https://old.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/10uk3jr/cmv_tipping_culture_in_the_us_is_getting_out_of/ jump to content my subreddits edit subscriptions * popular * -all * -random * -users | * AskReddit * -pics * -funny * -movies * -gaming * -worldnews * -news * -todayilearned * -nottheonion * -explainlikeimfive * -mildlyinteresting * -DIY * -videos * -OldSchoolCool * -television * -TwoXChromosomes * -tifu * -Music * -books * -LifeProTips * -dataisbeautiful * -aww * -science * -space * -Showerthoughts * -askscience * -Jokes * -IAmA * -Futurology * -sports * -UpliftingNews * -food * -nosleep * -creepy * -history * -gifs * -InternetIsBeautiful * -GetMotivated * -gadgets * -announcements * -WritingPrompts * -philosophy * -Documentaries * -EarthPorn * -photoshopbattles * -listentothis * -blog more >> changemyview changemyview * comments Want to join? Log in or sign up in seconds.| * English [ ][] [ ]limit my search to r/changemyview use the following search parameters to narrow your results: subreddit:subreddit find submissions in "subreddit" author:username find submissions by "username" site:example.com find submissions from "example.com" url:text search for "text" in url selftext:text search for "text" in self post contents self:yes (or self:no) include (or exclude) self posts nsfw:yes (or nsfw:no) include (or exclude) results marked as NSFW e.g. subreddit:aww site:imgur.com dog see the search faq for details. advanced search: by author, subreddit... this post was submitted on 05 Feb 2023 2,933 points (94% upvoted) shortlink: [https://redd.it/10uk] Submit a new text post Get an ad-free experience with special benefits, and directly support Reddit. get reddit premium changemyview joinleave3,711,429 readers 1,426 users here now Submit a CMV post Deltas from Popular Topics Search CMV What is /r/changemyview? A place to post an opinion you accept may be flawed, in an effort to understand other perspectives on the issue. Enter with a mindset for conversation, not debate. More Detail Message the Moderators Submission Rules Explain the reasoning behind Note: if your view is about a your view, not just what that "double standard", please see view is (500+ characters the guidelines here. [More] required). V A post cannot be made on behalf of others, for playing devil's You must personally hold the advocate, as any entity other view and demonstrate that you than yourself, or to "soapbox". are open to it changing.V Posts by throwaway accounts must be approved through modmail. [ More] Submission titles must Posts with misleading/ adequately sum up your view and overly-simplistic titles may be include "CMV:" at the beginning. removed. [More] V Posts cannot express a neutral No view is banned from CMV based stance, a stance on transgender, on popularity or perceived suggest harm against a specific offensiveness, but the above person, be self-promotional, or types of post are disallowed for discuss this subreddit (visit r/ practical reasons. [More] ideasforcmv instead). V Only post if you are willing to have a conversation with those If you haven't replied during who reply to you, and are this time, your post will be available to start doing so removed. [More] within 3 hours of posting. V Comment Rules Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least Arguments in favor of the view OP is one aspect of OP's stated willing to change must be restricted view (however minor), or ask to replies to other comments. [More] a clarifying question. V Your comment will be removed even if Don't be rude or hostile to the rest of it is solid. 'They other users. V started it' is not an excuse. You should report, not retaliate. [More] Refrain from accusing OP or If you are unsure whether someone is anyone else of being genuine, ask clarifying questions unwilling to change their (see: socratic method). If you think view, or of arguing in bad they are still exhibiting poor faith. V behaviour, please message us. [More] You must include an explanation of Award a delta if you've the change along with the delta so acknowledged a change in we know it's genuine. Delta abuse your view. Do not use deltas includes sarcastic deltas, joke for any other purpose. V deltas, super-upvote deltas, etc. [ More] Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content Comments must contribute to move the discussion forward. meaningfully to the Jokes, contradictions without conversation. V explanation, links without context, and "written upvotes" will be removed. [More] The Delta System Whether you're the OP or not, please reply to the user(s) that change your view to any degree with a delta in your comment (instructions below), and also include an explanation of the change. Full details. & Method: For: Copy/paste- D All Systems Unicode- ∆ All Systems Option/Alt+J Mac Ctrl+Shift+u2206 Linux !delta When you can't use D /u/DeltaBot will maintain delta counts in user flair, wiki pages for each user's delta history, record deltas in /r/DeltaLog, and update deltaboards where necessary. How to not earn a delta: Anti-delta Approach. Please report cases of delta abuse/misuse, accidental deltas, and failed delta attempts. Code on GitHub: DeltaBot / CMVModBot Monthly Deltaboard Rank Username Deltas 1 Apprehensive_Song490 8 2 destro23 6 3 Amoral_Abe 5 4 iamintheforest 3 5 bemused_alligators 3 6 Tarantio 2 7 sophisticaden_ 2 8 PM_ME_YOUR_NICE_EYES 2 9 draculabakula 2 10 deep_sea2 2 As of 9/11/2024 22:47:54 UTC More Deltaboards Fresh Topic Friday On Fridays, posts can't be highly similar to any other in the past month, and won't show up in the new queue until they've been checked and approved by a moderator. FTF is an attempt to reduce topic fatigue. More info on Fresh Topic Friday. Follow us on Twitter @changemyview Duplicate Posts Any post that is identical in principle to a post made in the last 24 hours will be removed to reduce topic fatigue. More info on when/why we remove posts in our moderation standards More Information We have compiled lots of useful information such as full explanations of our rules, CMV etiquette, archives, research papers on CMV, and some more general information about the subreddit in our wiki. For anyone interested in how we moderate this subreddit, we have our approach laid out over at our mod standards page. a community for 11 years MODERATORS * message the mods discussions in r/changemyview <> X 161 * 73 comments CMV: "Everything Happens For A Reason" is a horrible coping statement, and bad people atypically win at life compared to good hearted people. 105 * 558 comments CMV: Blaiming all Haitians in Springfield OH for the crimes of a few, if it even happened, is basic racism 65 * 137 comments CMV: If you really love someone a prenup shouldn't be an issue 68 * 151 comments CMV: Capitalisms natural progression towards ever bigger companies and defacto monopolies will not be stopped and ultimately reduce the quality of life for most people. 85 * 83 comments CMV: There should be fewer swimming events in the Olympics 108 * 261 comments CMV: The motivation for hunting for sport is very flimsily distinguishable from that for sadism and deliberate animal cruelty. 116 * 105 comments cmv: American politicians should have an upper age limit. 70 * 176 comments CMV: AI "Art" isn't Art 413 * 845 comments CMV: "white privilege" would be better discussed if the termed was named something else. 388 * 314 comments CMV: America will not be less divided after the 2024 election Welcome to Reddit, the front page of the internet. Become a Redditor and join one of thousands of communities. x 2932 2933 2934 CMV: Tipping culture in the US is getting out of hand and should be discouraged. (self.changemyview) submitted 1 year ago by NefariousSeal I currently work in an industry that relies heavily on tipping and without it many if not all the employees would not be able to sustain their lives without the extra income provided by tips. So obviously I love tips and really appreciate them. BUT, it is my view that tipping culture has gotten out of hand. I recently saw a New York Times article that talked about how tipping 20% is the minimum, which I think is absurd to expect from customers on a regular basis. I believe that the expectation of regular tipping is really just a way for companies/corporations to externalize the costs of paying employees a living wage and putting those costs on the customers. Which is bullshit. And let's be honest, it's kinda crazy to feel the need to tip someone who didn't really even provide a service for you, other than what is expected from them in the normal duties of their position. But if an employee goes above and beyond normal service, I feel a tip makes sense. So it's my view that the tipping culture in the US needs to be somehow systematically reined in and the cost of paying employees a living wage back in the companies/corporations where it belongs. * 746 comments * share * save * hide * report top 200 commentsshow 500 sorted by: q&a (suggested) besttopnewcontroversialoldrandomlive (beta) [ ] Want to add to the discussion? Post a comment! Create an account [-][deleted] 1 year ago (292 children) [removed] [-]Deferty 13 points14 points15 points 1 year ago (0 children) I promise you if you advertise that tipping is not encouraged I will visit your establishment more. I bet there are a lot of people like me who are willing to support businesses that align with my viewpoints in tipping. You'd need to have that 20% more cost go directly to your employees though. I walk up to a counter in a coffee shop that has muffins right next to the register. They hand me the muffin and it asks me to tip them when I pay. Minimum $1 tip and they just handed it to me from the counter. I'm willing to select shop for establishments that don't encourage this guilt bearing purchases when I feel I don't need to tip them... * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]NefariousSeal[S] 201 points202 points203 points 1 year ago (253 children) Well if you're expected to tip 20% then the price is the same. Also the other thing nobody seems to want to say is that, at least for large corporations, if the wages were slightly more normalized across the company structure they could pay workers more without increasing costs. CEOs and manager types would have to accept not getting huge bonuses etc, but it's fairer overall and would help stabilize society. And let's face it, I don't care if they can't buy a third home or a yacht * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Le0-o4 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (5 children) you missed the point. Also you must realize that will never happen? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]NefariousSeal[S] 8 points9 points10 points 1 year ago (4 children) I don't think it's constructive to assume things will never change. Many European societies don't have tipping as a given and things seem to function just fine over there. Also what's the point that I'm missing? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (4 replies) [-]Vonauda 49 points50 points51 points 1 year ago (6 children) Facts don't matter in commerce, only feels. JCPenney cut the bullshit 15 years ago and sold things for what they actually wanted from a sale without the need to come in on a Tuesday at 11 am with coupons. Sales plummeted so much that the CEO was fired and prices were raised back up to be discounted with 70% off sales back to the same price. When customers were polled about why they stopped shopping there it was determined that the dopamine rush of clipping coupons and getting a "deal" wasn't there so the store wasn't worth shopping at. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]EveryFairyDies1[?] 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (1 child) Couponing in general is a very American mentality, though. Shops in other countries will, of course, have regular items on sale (2 for 1; 3 for $4; etc) but cutting coupons isn't necessary and businesses don't use them. Especially now, there's a lot of "rewards cards" which will give you a lower price than the normal docket price, AND allow customers to build points towards deals, offers and sales. The nation has a lot built on believing they're getting a deal, when really, they're all getting shafted but are too stupid or too stubborn to realise it. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Logistics093 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago* (0 children) Couponing in general is a very American mentality, though It used to be but now I think it's more of a global trend. I'm from South Korea and ... couponing is pretty prevalent here now. Especially housewives who like saving money and shopping smart, they collect coupons to get good discounts. Not just in S.Korea but in East Asia broadly, couponing is a thing now. What really happened is that America was developed earlier and lots of "commerce strategies" were also developed earlier in America and I feel like lots of other countries that developed mass commerce recently are catching up with commerce strategies as well. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]silverionmox24[?] 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (0 children) Well, turnabout is fair play. * FREE service included on Tuesdays! * Special tip-free payment option! * 5% off if you pay with tips included! * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]monkeyentropy 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) I actually enjoyed shopping at JC Penney for that brief period of reasonable pricing. I love not having to watch for the best price, I just bought what I liked when I saw it because it was a fair price. I have not been back since they changed the model back * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Queasy-Increase8742 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) Facts. The JCP story is still so absurd to me. The CEO absolutely did the right thing in consumer interest. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) [-]LeopardThatEatsKids 84 points85 points86 points 1 year ago (21 children) The price is the same but unlike what economists often argue, people are not rational buyers $12 > $10+2 in the eyes of many peoples subconscious * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-][deleted] 28 points29 points30 points 1 year ago* (20 children) deleted ^^^What ^^^is ^^^this? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]TheExter 12 points13 points14 points 1 year ago (4 children) imagine if it starts hitting your grocery shopping, you'll see the price of something and once you go pay it has a hidden tax increase * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]ZorbaTHut 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (3 children) Checking Line Fee Air Conditioning Fee Freshness Surcharge Local Business Support Tax Shopping Cart Maintenance Fee Shelving Upgrade Fee Cleaning Surcharge * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (3 replies) [-]maddtuck 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) I agree with you on this. But it should be done with tips as well. Problem is that tips generally cannot be pooled with the back of house due to laws, and with the single digit margins that most restaurants operate on, there's not room to pay back of house better. A law against surcharges needs to be matched with reform in tipping culture, because consumers somehow can't get it when you just increase menu prices and restaurants lose customers that way. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (14 replies) [-]Natural-Arugula53[?] 28 points29 points30 points 1 year ago (4 children) How is it the same? If I go to Starbucks and they tell me a coffee is $6, the price is $6. I can't give them $4.50 because I think that's what it's worth. I can give them $6 or not get a coffee. If the price is $4.50 and they are expecting a $1.50 tip I can give them $4.50, take my coffee and walk out the door with $1.50 in my pocket. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (4 replies) [-]PersonVA1[?] 14 points15 points16 points 1 year ago* (0 children) . * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]sigmawarrior99 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (0 children) * these national chains are a joke they pay employees more in California than say Wyoming simply because of what the state is alloted through govt funding or something like that. we have our money producing states and we have our dependent states that don't generate much surplus at all. look at Arizona, theres a desert and unless cactus or tumbleweeds gets turned into hot commodities not much is there .Nevada found its nich'e with gambling and "other" services. and some other states that well have nothing to offer. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-][deleted] 1 year ago (6 children) [deleted] [-]nashbrownies 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (5 children) Lmao, I get such a kick out of that. Fractions are hard, but you'd think fractions relating to meat serving sizes would be better known. It's one of those "everyday" math things they tell ya about * permalink * embed * save * report [-][deleted] 1 year ago (4 children) [deleted] [-]DSMRick1[?] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (1 child) "Math is hard' is probably more a cultural belief than the result of poor education. Math is objectively correct or not, which means that you can tell who is good at it (smart people). Whereas for the most part you can't tell which of your peers are good at History (still smart people). Ergo, it appears you have to be smart to be good at math but it isn't as obviously true that you have to be smart to be good at history. * permalink * embed * save * report load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) [-][deleted] 1 year ago (28 children) [deleted] [-]chemicalrefugee4[?] 8 points9 points10 points 1 year ago (10 children) The minumum cash payment per hour for waitstaff in the USA is $2.13/ hour. That's obscene. A whole lot of people can't afford to tip because of wage stagnation. Meanwhile outside of the USA tipping is *rare* because on most of the planet you don't have to BEG on the side to pay your bills. Don't fool yourself. That's what a tip is. It's alms for the poor. I live in Australia now (20+ years so far) although I grew up in the USA. Here in Australia people don't tip. Instead the waitstaff are paid enough to live on. That's how it is on most of the planet. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]caphill2000 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (3 children) Plenty of places don't have tipped min wages. In seattle our waitstaff get paid 18 an hour min and still expect at least a 20% tip for bad service. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (6 replies) [-]WinterRose81 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (5 children) There is no law that says 100% of tips goes to the server. I worked at all kinds of restaurants for years as a server and I can personally confirm we have to tip out. What that means is we have to use our tips to supplement the wages of the bar, the food runners, water pourers, etc. If a server makes $150 in tips, that server is not going home with $150 in tips. * permalink * embed * save * report [-][deleted] 1 year ago* (2 children) [deleted] load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (2 replies) [-]broadmind314 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (2 children) I waited in a high end restaurant where the checks were routinely $1000+ for parties of 2-4 and $10,000 for large groups. The patrons tipped very well but I barely saw any of it. They pooled the tips and spread it out amongst all the staff in the kitchen and rest of the restaurant as well (so they said). I made absolute peanuts during that time of my life. * permalink * embed * save * report [-][deleted] 1 year ago (1 child) [deleted] load more comments (1 reply) [-]Rough-Culture 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (7 children) Lol. Idk maybe we just increase the tipped minimum wage, which is still like 2$ an hour... * permalink * embed * save * report [-]biggsteve81 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (4 children) Most wait staff net far more than minimum wage, and would be very unhappy being paid close to minimum wage (even if it were $10-12/hr. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (4 replies) [-]azurensis 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (1 child) Not everywhere. The places where it's $16/hr, like Seattle, still want a 20% tip. It's like tips are completely unrelated to hourly wages. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) [-]Morthra85[?] 122 points123 points124 points 1 year ago (151 children) First, restaurants and other food service institutions generally make razor thin margins. You don't have CEOs taking massive bonuses. Second, most skilled tipped staff today would oppose getting rid of tips. It's a difficult to job to do well and a skilled waitress or bartender can make bank from tips at a high end place. Getting rid of tips is basically asking them to take a massive pay cut. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-][deleted] 1 year ago (27 children) [removed] [-]Maxfunky39[?] 10 points11 points12 points 1 year ago (20 children) It's momentum. You would find it nearly as impossible to switch over to a system like ours, but we do it just fine. People are resistant to change and even when everyone would like to change, the game theory here punishes anyone who tries to be ahead of the curve. So even if most restaurant owners would be happy to switch, they all want to be the last ones to do it. Also, you've got servers in California getting $15 an hour minimum wage + 20% tips on prices that are inflated to cover that $15. These people are making $80k a year (based on your linguistic choices I'm going to assume you're Australian, so this is about $120,000 a year in Digeridollars). They make more than most of the college graduates in this country. Good luck getting them to give that shit up without riots. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]spiral888828[?] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (15 children) Why would anyone need to give up anything? The restaurants include the service into the menu prices. Customers pay that as the total cost to go to a restaurant is exactly the same as it was before. So the total money collected by the restaurant is the same as price+tip was in the past. Then it's up to the owner and the staff to divide that. If it's so that the staff is willing to fight (=to go on strike) if the switch would mean a decrease in their income, then the owner has no choice but to pay them wages that equal the old wage + tip. The only thing that would change is that the waiters would not be able to dodge taxes by taking some or all of the tips without paying income tax for that. And that's how it should be. The college graduates that you mention pay taxes for every cent that they earn, so why shouldn't the waiters? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Morthra85[?] 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (3 children) Why would anyone need to give up anything? The restaurants include the service into the menu prices. The restaurants that try that go out of business as the skilled servers go to places that do tips and business dries up due to the higher up-front cost. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (3 replies) [-]Maxfunky39[?] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (10 children) Why would anyone need to give up anything? The restaurants include the service into the menu prices. Customers pay that as the total cost to go to a restaurant is exactly the same as it was before. So the total money collected by the restaurant is the same as price+tip was in the past. Then it's up to the owner and the staff to divide that. If it's so that the staff is willing to fight (=to go on strike) if the switch would mean a decrease in their income, then the owner has no choice but to pay them wages that equal the old wage + tip Oh, you're preaching to the choir. I think it's a thing that definitely should happen. I'm just telling you that it won't. There's too much momentum to change course. Several restaurants have tried and they've all been essentially punished by the market for it. As somebody else's pointed out, humans are not rational, they don't see $10 + 20% the same as they see $12. Restaurants that raise their menu prices to pay their staff a fair wage in eliminate tipping find sales go down because customers think the prices are too high. It doesn't really matter that they actually aren't any higher. This is why the cellphone/cable companies, and now basically everyone else too, is so keen to tack on surcharges and fees. They want to tell you the price is 59.99. never mind the fact that when the bill comes it's actually $76 because rather than simply raise prices to cover regulatory costs, they've made them separate line item charges. Customers do gripe about this sort of thing, but it hits different. The servers aren't any more rational either. If they come home one night and do the math and realize they made $50 an hour, they feel really good about that. They don't want to lose that, even if they're average pay is only $20 an hour and their new pay rate matches their average. It feels worse. So basically, the only people who can implement this change is the restaurant industry, and nobody in the restaurant industry wants it. Meanwhile, the people who say they want it, actually vote with their dollars in a way that is consistent with them not really wanting it. So where does the impetus to switch come from? Short of a federal law, which would require bipartisan cooperation, that effectively outlaws tipping, I don't see any way to make this change It's not that I don't think it's a good change, it's just I don't think it's a plausible change. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]spiral888828[?] 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (9 children) I don't think you need to outlaw tipping. It's legal in Europe to tip. All you need to do is to make a law that requires service being included in the prices. If someone wants to give extra gratuity after that, they are free to do so, but the social convention that you have to tip would end there just like it has ended in Europe. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (9 replies) [-]OwlrageousJones1[?] 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (0 children) This is the unfortunate truth. The only way to make it happen would be to legislate it - but that's political suicide. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (3 replies) [-]azurensis 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (1 child) Here in Seattle the minimum wage is like $16/hr and everyone still expects a 20% tip. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]Logistics093 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) Yep... Many states in US like California, Oregon, Washington, and about a dozen other states pay the full regular minimum wage to tip workers AND YET, people in those states still demand 20% tips. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]sahuxley21[?] 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (0 children) America invented the fast food restaurant, where nobody ever tips. Don't act like they can't do it. Tips are for when I want better service than McDonald's, and it's to incentivize the person handling your food directly. * permalink * embed * save * report load more comments (3 replies) [-][deleted] 24 points25 points26 points 1 year ago (9 children) There have been studies that prove that tips do not increase based on service at any level past adequate. People statistically will tip the same weather you do a fine job a great job or an outstanding job. Tipping doesn't reward the best staff for their hard work * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]JamesBuffalkill 21 points22 points23 points 1 year ago (1 child) It's also important to know that, even when controlled for other variables, tips will change based on the gender and race of the server regardless of their performance. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]feb9141[?] 16 points17 points18 points 1 year ago (0 children) Also based on their attractiveness (and how "sexy" their clothing is). I remember a woman researcher doing this experiment and see how much tip she got when she wear more conventional clothing vs more revealing clothing, also when she wears push up bra (that make her breasts look bigger) vs not. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]AureliasTenant3[?] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) What variable? If it's perecentage... the wait staff at fancy places want the same percentage at their expensive restaurant * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (6 replies) [-][deleted] 104 points105 points106 points 1 year ago (52 children) Your first point is a complete lie when it comes to national chains. They make billions in profits and the CEOs are paid extravagantly. The companies are publicly traded so it's public knowledge. You can just watch CNBC and see the huge profit they bring in. "Restaurants have thin margins" is just a lie perpetuated by restaurants so they can pay less. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]gruez 66 points67 points68 points 1 year ago* (39 children) First, restaurants and other food service institutions generally make razor thin margins [...] Your first point is a complete lie when it comes to national chains. They make billions in profits You do realize that "razor thin" refers to the relative amount (ie. percentage point terms) and not the absolute amount, right? If you're making 1 billion in profit over 100 billion in sales, that's still razor thin. That said, starbucks and chipotle has margins around 13%. I chose those companies specifically because they don't franchise much. Otherwise calculating margin relative to the goods sold becomes tricky. Whether that range counts as "razor thin" is arbitrary. It's certainly higher than companies like Kroger (2-3%), [DEL:but it's still lower than the entire s&p average of 49%.:DEL] (this is incorrect, see /u/vyctorlazlow's reply) and the CEOs are paid extravagantly. Since a company only has one CEO, it's quite easy to pay them extravagantly while still having razor thin margins. Going back to the example of 1 billion dollar profit on 100 billion in sales, that's quite a bit of money can you can splash on executive compensation. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]vyctorlazlow 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Your link to a very high S&P 500 profit margin is for the financial services company that created the "S&P 500" concept/group, it's not the average profit margin of the 500 companies in that group. Financial services companies generally have outlandish profit margins, but aren't representative of the economy as a whole. The S&P 500 companies as a group have a profit margin that's usually somewhere in the 10%-12% range, with sector extremes ranging from 7-8% on the low end and 15-20% on the high end (https:// insight.factset.com/ sp-500-reporting-a-lower-net-profit-margin-for-5th-straight-quarter) * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]gruez 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) I stand corrected! I edited my comment accordingly. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]crmd4[?] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) Both Starbucks and Chipotle have above average operating margins compared to all public companies in every industry. They're not much lower than Goldman Sachs. The narrative of "razor thin margins" is a bald faced lie. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]pherbury 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (8 children) Ehh, Starbucks I don't mind because they pay well, don't request tips, and have good programs for their employees. Chipotle not so much, as they pay low wages and still request tips at checkout. How much they franchise isn't quite as relevant as how they pay their employees in this thread. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]gruez 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (2 children) How much they franchise isn't quite as relevant as how they pay their employees in this thread. It's entirely relevant if we're trying to determine whether a company has "razor thin margins" based on their financials. If they franchise, their revenue will be almost entirely franchise fees, which is a fraction of actual revenue (ie. the food they sell). If you use that as the denominator, you'll get higher profit margins compared to a company that doesn't franchise. Here's a toy example with totally made up numbers: Company A (all stores are company owned): * sells $100M worth of food across all stores * has $90M in expenses across the company * = profit margin of 10% Company B (all stores are franchises): * sells $100M worth of food across all stores * the store themselves cost $80M to run * from the stores, the company collects franchise fees of $15M * the company (ie. the corporation that actually manages the franchise) spends $10M on admin expenses and marketing. * collectively, the franchise owners rake in $100M - $80M - $15M = $5M worth of profit * the company itself makes $5M, but on "revenues" of $15M, which means they have a 33% profit margin Arguably, the two examples have the same "margins". It's just that the company in the second example has higher margins due to accounting. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]pherbury 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) I mean, sure, that's a way to determine if the company is able to to pay higher wages or not, but I think this goes above tweaking these business models. To me, this is more about throwing out the current way these franchises run and pay wages. It would take government policy to force their hands because it's pretty clear that no one is going to do it on their own. In my eyes, this is as simple as government mandating service industry employees are paid at least $10 per hour and tipping is no longer compulsory. Prices go up across the board for everyone and the status quo shifts enough so that most all small chains and family owned restaurants can comply and still stay in business. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) [-]salYBC 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (0 children) Starbucks is so good to their workers that they give them unlimited vacation for unionizing their store! * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (27 replies) [-]TheoreticalFunk 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) Agreed. Ever see any of those shows where they try to save these restaurants? Most of it is because they're spending too much on pre-prepared food, as in, not being a restaurant. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (11 replies) [-][deleted] 1 year ago (1 child) [deleted] [-]not26 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) Sysco is fucking everywhere now * permalink * embed * save * report load more comments (58 replies) [-]dickmosquito 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) It's a great idea but it's just fantasy make believe. It's no different than saying if CEOs eliminated bonuses for all the executives then we could pay new employees twice as much money. Yes your statement is true but it's never going to happen because of common sense. If YOU were the CEO then you would never reduce your own pay. You might think you would and telling everyone makes you feel better but the truth is that would never happen. It's easy for you to tell a CEO to cut his pay by 10% just like A homeless man could easily tell you to cut your pay by 10%. There are people around the world that are starving to death right now and you could change their life by sending them 10% of your pay every month, why haven't you done it? It would definitely make life more difficult for you but you could just downgrade to a smaller apartment or Use public Wi-Fi instead of paying for it. Once you get used to living a certain lifestyle it's all relative. 10 years ago I felt like I was doing good and I was happy but now that I made twice as much money I couldn't even imagine living that way * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Left-Pumpkin-4815 31 points32 points33 points 1 year ago (0 children) We are subsidizing owners not workers. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Powillom 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) Bro as a restaurant gm I've never gotten a bonus you're living in a fantasy * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (20 replies) [-]Suspicious_Bug6422 16 points17 points18 points 1 year ago (2 children) Some places have started adding a "service fee" of between 15-20% and making it clear that no additional tip is necessary. Not a perfect solution but it's a decent start. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]merlynmagus 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) It doesn't always make it clear. I was at a hotel bar on a work trip recently and there was a 20% service fee added, and also a line for a tip on the credit card slip. I tipped because I had a few and wasn't sure. Next round, I pulled a server aside and asked and he told me they get the 20% service fee, they get paid $10/hr, and yes, they hope you don't notice and also tip on top of that. This place was charging $8 for a jack and coke. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) [-]thespicyartichoke 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (1 child) Restaurants in states that don't allow them to pay lower minimum wage to servers won't be affected. For example, in California restaurants have to pay servers minimum wage regardless of tips. These restaurants can eradicate tips without changing their pricing because they won't have to pay their employees anything extra to continue to work there. Restaurants in states that allow them to pay servers $2.13/hour because they've convinced someone who passes laws that tipping should be considered part of the servers wages, they will see their profitability change if tipping were eliminated as they will suddenly have to actually pay their employees minimum wage. This won't result in a 20% increase in their sales prices! A Chili's in California charges about $1/entree more than a Chili's in Texas. The Texas restaurant is paying $13/hour less per employee. If each employee can serve 13 guests/hour, then a Texas Chili's will need to raise their prices by $1/entree to cover for having to pay servers minimum wage. If you go out to Chili's and order a burger for $16, you now will owe $17, or 6.25% more. Very preferable to a 20% tip. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) [-]Tibbaryllis23[?] 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (0 children) Naturally, the best place to start is to remove all minimum wage exemptions. Then require the standard mileage rate be factored into orders that require delivery. In my state, that would mean your floor staff get $12/hr while your delivery drivers get $12/hr and $0.505/ mile minimum. However, in my city most drive through, fast food employees start at $15/hr, so naturally you'll have to be competitive and may have to raise prices if you can't be both profitable and competitive. But so does everyone else. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]derande_yo 14 points15 points16 points 1 year ago (6 children) I would support a restaurant with a no-tip policy where the entire staff was a paid a decent wage. Bring it on. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Dafiro93 14 points15 points16 points 1 year ago (5 children) They already tried that here in NYC and all the staff left to work at other restaurants because they paid more money due to big tips. Servers making over $50/hr from tips in certain high-end restaurants for example. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Tibbaryllis23[?] 15 points16 points17 points 1 year ago (1 child) The tipping issue comes up a lot on Reddit and tipped employees are often among the most vocal about defending it due to how much money they can make above and below the table. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]ACardAttack 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) and tipped employees are often among the most vocal about defending it due to how much money they can make above and below the table. Yep, especially those at high end/busy restaurants or get the best shifts * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (3 replies) [-]timmy_throw 10 points11 points12 points 1 year ago (0 children) Prices in countries without the tipping culture aren't higher either. How do they stay in business ? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]changemyview-ModTeam[M,] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year agolocked comment (0 children) Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP's stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question . Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information. If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]jrossetti2[?] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) This assumes a zero-sum game in people are only concerned with price. Furthermore your prices don't have to increase 20%. You could offer say $25 an hour in a market that would normally get $15 an hour and have absolutely no trouble filling it and that would be a lot less than raising your prices 20 percent. Never mind that some people actually will go out of their way to shop at the business that's taken care of their employees as opposed to relying on the customer. But ultimately at the end of the day the product and service they receive is going to weigh more than a buck or two more or less on a ten dollar guest check. There are already businesses who did away with tips and are already competing successfully against businesses who do tips. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Willingo 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (1 child) Reminds me of the store that stopped lying about "everything is on sale" when the price is permanent. I think it was Macy's? They lost a lot of money. People didn't like it. People spent more when they were knowingly lied to * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) [-]flowers4u 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) There are a few places near us that advertise no tipping and their prices are a bit higher, I try and frequent those places most often. I like that they just took it away and their employees seem happy * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (18 replies) [-]hakzeify 44 points45 points46 points 1 year ago (11 children) My ex's server friends hated when people would talk about getting rid of tipping in exchange for a higher wage as they work at a Steakhouse and even if they made 30 an hour it would pale in comparison to how much they got in tips from old fat rich dudes. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]sofakingchillbruh 13 points14 points15 points 1 year ago (5 children) This is ultimately why it'll never change, because servers don't want it to. Why on earth would they want to get rid of tips in exchange for a consistent wage? They're making $20-$30/hour for a relatively low skill job that just about anyone can do with little to no training. They'll talk about how stressful it can be, and I'm sure it is, but fast food workers work under just as much stress and aren't payed nearly as much. I think minimum wage across the board needs to be upped to reflect cost of living, but that's a conversation for another time. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]magnum3290 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (4 children) They're making $20-$30/hour for a relatively low skill job that just about anyone can do with little to no training. Are they making that money because they're skinny pretty women? Otherwise there wouldn't be poverty in USA as anyone can become a waiter and make almost 30 bucks an hour * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]sofakingchillbruh 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (0 children) They're making that much because it's basically taboo to not leave a tip. It doesn't matter what you look like, or even how good you are. You will get tipped. For every person that doesn't tip, there's two more that tip 30% because "they used to be a server." * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]TyrannosaurusFrat 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (2 children) I'm a dude who sits at a 6/10 on a good day and i would make like 60-80 an hour in tips bartending. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (2 replies) [-]NefariousSeal[S] 9 points10 points11 points 1 year ago (1 child) Yeah I feel ya there. I've had jobs in the past where the tips far outweighed the wage and I would never expect a position to be paid an hourly that could compare to what I made in tips * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]vyctorlazlow 14 points15 points16 points 1 year ago* (0 children) I feel like that's the other half of what people are objecting to with the current tipping model, though. The 'tipping is just subsidizing ownership/management' argument, in my view, may even be secondary to 'the model is deeply economically biased'. It feels very inappropriate to be socially pressured (and functionally pressured, when every fast food sale now offers/pushes a tipping option, and receipts either add an "artificially high" tipping suggestion or simply add a mandatory tip) into tipping so much that the functional salary of that tipped position is at a level well above what other people who are working just as hard/are just as skilled are making. Even in places that share tips out among the back-end staff, it's my understanding the servers/bartenders make a disproportionately high hourly wage (even after adjusting for the tipped wage differential). Just because someone is the "face" of the service doesn't mean they do most of the work. The within-industry corollary of this is how unfair it is that great service at a low-cost restaurant will always be tipped less than great service at a higher-cost place... or even less than mediocre service at a higher-end place, for that matter, especially once insane drink prices get factored in, and to say nothing of the fact that it's disproportionately the higher-end restaurants where the bills include highly inflated tip suggestions (no one should EVER be proposing a tip of 25-30% INCLUDING bar tab, c'mon!). It doesn't take less skill/care to be attentive and deliver properly-placed orders at a low-cost restaurant than a high-cost, but the current model delivers exactly that, in spades. I don't want to feel socially coerced (which, honestly, is probably one of my personal biggest triggers... hello, familial autism-spectrum) into paying someone a price for their service far higher than what I know I'm paying indirectly to lots of people in the economy whose services/labor I value just as much but who don't appear in front of me. I think the fundamental issue comes down to transparency. I have no way know how my tip will affect what the total hourly/annual wages of my server are, but we're routinely told that's what we need to think about when we tip... with neither visibility nor control over that variable, how can I be expected to make that the basis of my decision? Tipping used to be assumed to be paying for how much a service meant to you, the consumer... something we have full control and visibility of. Being asked/pressured to tip based on what we think a fair annual wage would be, with no visibility... that's just manipulation, by someone. If I'm being entirely cynical, tipping increasingly feels like it's ownership + the visible portion of the labor force (servers/ bartenders) colluding in a model that favors them both over the rest of the restaurant workforce or the workforce in general. This actually coincides some with another facet that I saw someone raise in this thread, that having high-percentage tipping allows server-scheduling to be looser (sloppier?)... if a couple busy hours can net a server a bucket of money, it's financially feasible to always schedule more servers than anticipated/usual demand would call for, making the restaurant more able to accommodate (and profit from) unexpected surges in demand. Of course, all this allows is for plenty of servers interacting with customers but doesn't improve things for the kitchen, so it's not necessarily doing customers a favor nor is it rewarding backend staff who get slammed with unexpected work... mostly just helps ownership/management. HOWEVER... one valid counterpoint I've heard has less to do with quality of service and more with who can dine at all. If a poor family goes to a restaurant and only tips 0-5% simply because they can afford the published food prices but little/no more, servers can still make a reasonable wage if better-off diners tip higher. This creates a tiered cost experience that a flat rate/'properly-waged servers' model doesn't. That's a feature of tipping in general, though, and still doesn't address the issue above about transparency. I'm fine with tipping more in order to subsidize the dining experience of someone whose current situation isn't as privileged as mine, but I still don't know how to spend my money in a way that I find fair without some more transparency about who's getting what. Having listed all those criticisms, it occurs to me that the 'bill-based' model was only ever someone's proposal for how to ESTIMATE (not precisely calculate) a reasonable 'Thanks!' amount (not an annual-living-wage-based amount). Maybe we as consumers have grown so attached to that proposal that we've allowed it to both distort our experiences and be used to manipulate us. One model is the frequently-suggested one of imposing living-wage requirements on employers for all positions, with tipping returning to a more 'thanks for going above and beyond' concept... you know, like everywhere in the developed world except the US, basically. I think that sounds logical, but it'd require a ton of changes and I'm not sure the political/social will exists. What if we as consumers (after all, the ball's in our court, outside of those situations where a mandatory tip is being added) tried to adopt a new model that was more episode + time-based? That's much closer to how we figure compensation for almost every other service, after all. For customarily-tipped but non-tipped-wage workers (hair salon, food delivery, etc), non-exceptional service would be tipped $2 + $5/hr that you were served. For above-and-beyond service, $5 + $10/hr that you were served. (Examples: - barber, 1/2 hour, great service: $10 tip - hair salon, 2 hours, work was just ok: $12 tip - food delivery, 10 minutes of actual/dedicated delivery time from source to house, quick and courteous: $6 tip) For tipped-wage workers where there's not tip-splitting with the rest of the house, non-exceptional service would be tipped $5 + $5/hr that you were served. For above-and-beyond service, $10 + $10/hr that you were served. (Examples: - 45 min at table, ok service: $8 tip - 2 hours at table, service was great: $30 tip) For tipped-wage workers where there IS tip-splitting with the rest of the house, non-exceptional service would be tipped $5 + $10/hr that you were served. For above-and-beyond service, $10 + $15/hr that you were served. (Examples: - 45 min at table, ok service: $12 tip - 2 hours at table, service was great: $40 tip) Two major downsides are 1) requires social change around something with tons of stigma, and 2) more math. If problem #1 isn't bad enough, I think problem #2 would definitely be a fatal Achilles heel of this proposal. The only salvation I can imagine is an app that saves you from both the social stigma ("someone else calculated this for me, you'll need to talk to them about why you think the formula is unfair") and the math... you open when you're paying and it asks what service type, when you arrived/started (or delivery distance, if it's delivery), and how you felt your service was, then uses the current time to calculate the appropriate tip. To help this gain traction, maybe people could just scribble/circle the name of the app next to the tipped amount ('Tippr'?), which would give them a social buffer if they feel they'll be judged for the amount they tipped. And like Forrest Gump after talking way too long, 'that's all I gots to say about that'. (edited because paragraphs/typos) * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Feroc41[?] 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (0 children) Yes, I think that's a big part of the issue. Neither employer nor employee want the tipping system to go. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (2 replies) [-]triggerhaven 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (3 children) In Virginia the hourly for a tipped employee is $2.13 or something like that. They have to invoice the employer if their tips don't make it to minimum wage. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]CrowdSourcer 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (0 children) the fact that paying below minimum wage is legal because of the tips is the problem. maybe write to your representative * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]NefariousSeal[S] 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (1 child) Yeah I grew up in Michigan and I believe the law there is very similar to this still * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]yungsimba1917 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) Bartender here, it applies to us too. Only really nice places & country clubs actually pay you. There are restaurants where you can take a table if you see it first & the tipping system makes the work culture toxic as hell. Some part of me wants to say that I sympathize with small business owners but they get away with everything from wage theft to not paying overtime to underpaying undocumented workers, etc. I'd be willing to give up a few cheeseburgers a month if we all got paid more directly by our employers. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Enzo-Fernandez15[?] -50 points-49 points-48 points 1 year ago (89 children) It's a good incentive structure. Good waiters who work their ass off. Make more tips. Thus making lazy waiters less likely. It allows the customer to vote with their $ on who the good waiter is. If companies were forced to pay that $. They would just include it in the price of the product. You'd be paying it anyway. But you would remove the incentive for the waiter to be more productive and attentive. Incentives are very important in economics. USSR found that out the hard way. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]NefariousSeal[S] 49 points50 points51 points 1 year ago* (32 children) Your point is valid. But my counterpoint to your argument is that tipping culture, at least in the US, has become something so expected that an employee's performance often has little to do with whether they get a tip or not. In addition, a company that pays well/has good benefits is going to attract hard workers and have the ability to let go of people who are lazy etc. Thus giving incentive for hard work without having tips be expected/necessary * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]hacksoncode539[?] -13 points-12 points-11 points 1 year ago (23 children) so expected that an employee's performance often has little to do with whether they get a tip or not. No, you're just misunderstanding what the actual tipping structure is incentivizing: Quick service. This is in the interests of both the customer and the business. And it's literally impossible for the number of tips they receive not to depend on this, because it is directly proportional to the number of tables/customers that they serve in a night. The additional, albeit secondary, incentive for the business, which is the main reason you'll never get rid of this, is similarly intrinsic: the more expensive the meal they can sell the customer, the more tips they get. Except for fine-dining... getting your food, check, water, etc., quickly is a misery in countries that don't have tips. It's not guaranteed in the US, but it's directly punished. Of course if you prefer to laze around for hours eating your meal (as is traditional in cultures that don't use tipping), you won't like this incentive structure. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Daotar6[?] 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago (0 children) Except for fine-dining... getting your food, check, water, etc., quickly is a misery in countries that don't have tips. It's not guaranteed in the US, but it's directly punished. That has never been my experience. There's not really much of a difference. Plenty of places in the US are super slow, plenty of places in Europe are plenty fast. There's not really a substantial difference, this is just a myth that gets propagated because it "makes sense". But it's kind of ridiculous to suggest that tipping is required to incentivize productive labor. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Catsdrinkingbeer8[?] 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (12 children) Could you not have the exact same incentive by the restaurant paying workers a % of the bill themselves? It would still incentivize quick turn around and upselling. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (12 replies) [-]jandkas 8 points9 points10 points 1 year ago (5 children) getting your food, check, water, etc., quickly is a misery in countries that don't have tips. Japan and Korea don't have tipping and yet getting stuff quickly isn't a mess. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (5 replies) [-]NefariousSeal[S] 12 points13 points14 points 1 year ago (1 child) I mean that's true, but I wouldn't tip at a fast food restaurant and speed is literally the selling point * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [-]Enzo-Fernandez15[?] -12 points-11 points-10 points 1 year ago (6 children) Counterpoint to your counterpoint. We have a society that is clearly concerned with the plight of the workers. Seeing as how socialism despite being a god awful economic practice has been rising in popularity. People are willing to ignore all of 1900. So why is it a bad idea to let the customers have direct input on how much the laborers make? Instead of relying on the government to redistribute $. Which they tend to do an awful job of. Let the people do it directly. Furthermore the businesses are doing it for a reason. There is something in it for them. If it drove away customers. They would stop immediately. You may not agree with the middle ground they found. But it is what they feel is the most efficient business practice. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]NefariousSeal[S] 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (5 children) Okay but I'm not arguing for socialism. I'm just arguing that workers should make closer to a living wage and it should be paid by the company and not the customer. That's not socialism. Externalizing the wage cost to consumers just exacerbates the inequality gap and keeps more profits in the hands of the few on top, which is an unsustainable economic model. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Enzo-Fernandez15[?] -4 points-3 points-2 points 1 year ago (3 children) What if a worker is not worth anywhere remotely the "living wage". Say you have a very ugly waiter in hooters. Who the customers don't want to see. It's very sustainable. In fact it's desirable. The ugly waiter in hooters will get the message that she is somewhere she doesn't belong. And go work somewhere else where her talents will be appreciated much more. If you forced some floor on what she should get paid you would also place a ceiling on what the valuable labor can get paid. Which is bad for everyone involved. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]NefariousSeal[S] 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (2 children) If the worker is not worth the wage then they would be let go. It seems your main argument is that classical market forces are the perfect solution to all economic/social problems but I have yet to hear a legitimate argument or a real life example that makes me believe this is completely true * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [-]wibblywobbly4201[?] 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago (0 children) For tipping to be an incentive to work harder, a 0-5% tip needs to be acceptable for shitty service. Too many times do shitty waiters still think they should be getting a tip. If the tip is mandatory because it's their wages, then it's just their wages, not incentive to work harder and why should I be responsible for determining their wages? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]renoops19[?] 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (5 children) This doesn't really make any sense considering most jobs don't include tips, yet management finds ways of ensuring productivity. If you're a lazy server and aren't doing your job, you get fired. I'd you're not lazy, and routinely get great performance reviews, you get raises and promotions. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Enzo-Fernandez15[?] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (4 children) But this way the customers themselves get to decide. Not a manager. Who knows better what the 1000s of customers are thinking. One single manager or the 1000s of customers themselves. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]SaraHuckabeeSandwich 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (3 children) But if there's societal expectations around the minimum tipping amount, then that removes any meaningful ability for customers to use tips as a way to establish power in their feedback. Honest question, in the last year, what is the least amount you've tipped in a restaurant where tipping at least 18% is the established norm? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (3 replies) [-]WastedOwll 13 points14 points15 points 1 year ago (10 children) That's what giving employees raises are for? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (10 replies) [-]sik_dik 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (3 children) that kind of sounds to me like you're saying it's the customer's job to select the establishment's employees. I get where you're coming from, but if it weren't for tipping, the establishment would have the interest of still making sure their service staff is good at their jobs * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (3 replies) [-]SoapNooooo 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) In most developed countries a minimum wage cannot include service charge (tips), I put it to you that it does not increase customer satisfaction sufficiently to have a competitive market in the waiting industry such as to offset the massive societal damage caused by a whole sector now being paid a livable wage. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]NorthernerWuwu1[?] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) The service staff would also push back on labour rules that they currently wilfully turn a blind eye to. It is very difficult to run a restaurant giving legally mandated breaks, notice of shift changes and minimum hours among other things. That's obviously a bad thing for a number of reasons but presently tipped employees will waive their rights in exchange for an opportunity to make good money. Take away the incentive and restaurants and bars will also incur extra expenses due to needing substantially more staff. Hotels are pretty much the only places that follow those laws (in places where such laws exist of course) and things are more expensive as a result. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Yangoose2[?] 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (7 children) It's a good incentive structure. It's really not. Research has shown that tipping is sexist and racist and doesn't improve service. Turns out if you want the best tips you should be a cute white girl serving a man on a weekend who has ordered at least one alcoholic drink with his meal. Those are primary factors in determining the tip amount. Quality of service barely registers as a factor. https://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5888347/one-more-case-against-tipping * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (7 replies) [-][deleted] 1 year ago (1 child) [deleted] load more comments (1 reply) [-]vehementi10[?] 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (0 children) It's a good incentive structure. Turns out it's not, see: rest of the world where service is great and everyone guffaws at tipping culture in NA * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]majoroutage 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago* (0 children) Here's a problem, though. Ever since COVID happened, we've been moving away from dine-in experiences being the norm, and the charitable novelty of tipping for takeout has worn off. A lot of people don't think they should have to tip for takeout, and they're not wrong individually, but it does add up to a wage loss for the waitresses. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) Right but when tipping becomes the expectation instead of something you work towards, people feel entitled to it without earning it, then again anyone can be a "successful" waiter. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]PhysicsCentrism 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) IIRC Cornell did some studies on this and found that tipping and service quality arnt as related as one would think. From personal experience I agree with Cornell * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]timmy_throw 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (1 child) Waiters are fine in Europe without this forced "incentive". They do get tips for good service, but it isn't required for them to afford to live. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) [-]Chashme_Wali 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (5 children) Make the employers pay for that incentive, no? It's the age of technology. Let all US restauranteurs come together to develop/adopt an app system just like the Oracle or SAP Human resource management system where you have all waiters and chefs names and star rating visible to the customers like you have for uber drivers. Customers can scan QR codes on their desks and the app then appoints a waiter to serve you. You proceed to rate the service at the end of your meal and based on the ratings, EMPLOYERS provide the incentive each waiter deserves. Make this the norm instead of saying "not everybody will leave a rating" because had you pitched me the idea of 20% minimum tipping system to me, I'd have laughed and said "ain't nobody's gonna be on board with that idea" but here we are. Paying someone else's employees to do their job is not my responsibility and neither is it yours. Make the employer pay and provide the necessary incentives to ensure his/her little restaurant economics is well orchestrated to keep the show running. I am already contributing by buying your product/service. don't ask me to do your job too. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Enzo-Fernandez15[?] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (3 children) You do realize that if you removed tips. Those costs would just get added to the menu prices. If this is a viable system. Someone will build it and become a millionaire. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Chashme_Wali 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (2 children) You are however paying more money each passing year for that single donut anyway. It might be a few new cents but you see none of those extra cents are going into a waiter's pockets. This is why it is wrong. The economics and incentives you are talking about has boiled down to exploitation. Don't you agree that economics NEEDS the cycle of transactions to keep moving? If you keep the wages of an entire set of people stagnant for years together, while the inflation rises, you will have less and less customers because with rising inflation fewer people eat out because 20% MINIMUM tipping is outrageous especially when most people are living paycheck to paycheck. Your little restaurant economics will no longer need any attention from you because it will be time to shut down due to constant competition. Also, it is not a new theory of a system when I talk about inclusion of technology. HRMS been used for a lot of minimum wage workers since the late 2000s. It just needs to be adopted by restaurant groups too. It could be expensive for small businesses. Which is why restauranteurs must collectively adopt it. Just like how we have bus ticket system in the UK. Irrespective of which company bus you hop on, 1 bus pass or ticket bought online from 1 app, applies to them all. Everyone wins. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Enzo-Fernandez15[?] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (1 child) You can't have inflation. If people aren't buying anything. Inflation signals increased demand. What you are saying is an oxymoron. Increased demand + stagnant supply = inflation How can demand be increasing if people have less $ to spend. They clearly have more. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) [-][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) That's so beyond fucked up and would make it a nightmare for the workers. Like holy technocratic dystopia batman * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (10 replies) [-]Schmurby13[?] 241 points242 points243 points 1 year ago (54 children) I recently moved from the United States to Europe. I expected the standard of service to drop because of the lack of tipping but it really hasn't. If anything, it's better. Waitstaff seem more laid back and genuine. Probably because they're not scrounging for tips. However, one thing I have noticed is that it's much harder to be seated at restaurants here. Many of them expect a reservation, many are only open a few hours a day or a few days a week or even a few months out of the year. I assume this is because if they don't know how many customers to expect, they don't want to pay waitstaff to just sit around doing nothing. This seems to me to be one small advantage of tipping culture in favor of the customer: restaurants are nearly always open in the U.S and are much more flexible to drop ins because the waiters need customers to get paid and the business does not lose many from having people "on the clock", who are doing very little. I could be wrong. Just a pet theory I developed since moving here. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]moistmozarella 14 points15 points16 points 1 year ago (1 child) Just for your info, many restaurants in Europe have reduced their opening hours in the past year due to staff shortages and rising costs of supplies. Also, as eating out in Europe is less common than in the US, it is viewed more as a luxury / special event kind of thing. European consumers are cutting their spending more due to the high cost of living and restaurants feel they cannot increase their prices too much for fear of losing customers. As a result they are open fewer days hoping to attract more customers. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) [-]kattspraak 17 points18 points19 points 1 year ago (0 children) In France you want to make reservations for popular restaurants, especially because a table will generally be taken for the night, max 2 parties at the table if they seat a 19h and then a 21h dinner. (And in this case they'll often tell you a table is available but at 21h it's taken). * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]kewickviper 68 points69 points70 points 1 year ago (0 children) I mean you are generalising way too much. Countries in Europe are vastly different to each other. Standard of service somewhere like remote Georgia is going to be entirely different to say Paris which is going to be different to London or Rome or Berlin. Same with opening hours and seat reservations. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]OhMyGoat 37 points38 points39 points 1 year ago (6 children) How is having waiters standing around doing nothing waiting for people to come in a better alternative? It sounds awful. Imagine wasting hours of your day not doing shit getting paid 3$ an hr. Depressive as fuck. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]kaazgranaat2309 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (4 children) Because here in europe we get paid more then 3 euros an hour. I as a bartender earn 11 euros or something and once im 21 that will be like 12'50 an hour, plus the tips. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]peteroh92[?] 12 points13 points14 points 1 year ago (2 children) In this discussion, you get paid $0/hr because the restaurant is likely closed during the middle of the day, all day, etc. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]terricide 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) Wouldn't this be where having multiple jobs makes sense. I'd rather be busy at multiple jobs than spending hours bored at one. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [-][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago* (0 children) scarce roll tap market snails psychotic unwritten treatment jobless divide This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]chemicalrefugee4[?] 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (0 children) I was born in the USA and moved to Australia 20+ years ago. Aussie don't do tipping. Instead they pay people enough that they can eat. Yet our restaurants and pubs are full and have regular opening hours. The hours things is because it's Europe not because of there being no tipping. Tipping is an American thing. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]greeen-mario1[?] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) You say this is an advantage of tipping culture for the customer. It's a huge disadvantage of tipping culture for the workers though. In a non-tipping culture, where restaurant owners have to pay the workers rather than relying on tips, the restaurant owners are incentivized to keep their restaurants open only when there are enough customers to justify it, just as you explained. This is efficient. But in a tipping culture, restaurant owners don't care about this efficiency. They wastefully keep their restaurants open even when there aren't customers, and they schedule their workers to be there standing around with nothing to do because they don't have to pay their workers. This is very bad for the workers. The problem is that the tipping culture produces a situation in which the decision maker--the restaurant owner--is not the one who pays the costs of the decision. Therefore they don't have much incentive to avoid wasteful decisions. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Hurinfan 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) Japan here. That's a generalization that doesn't apply here one bit. Never have trouble finding a restaurant, absolutely no tips, and the service is the best * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Echuu 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) I live in Sweden and would disagree. I agree with dislike of the tipping culture but when i compare the service it's so much worse in Europe. The waiters just don't care. My pet peeves is having to wait for 20 minutes after finishing your meal just to get the check. Happens so often to me. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (38 replies) [-][deleted] 1 year ago* (14 children) [removed] [-]AtomicRocketShoes 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (0 children) A few places I go to use toasttab which basically lets you order at the table and food runners just bring you the order. Last place I asked for plates and napkins and water and they pointed at a table. They essentially didn't have waiters, yet still the default tip added to my order was 20%. It wasn't exactly cheap food either. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]PhysicsCentrism 15 points16 points17 points 1 year ago (3 children) Just because they ask for tips doesn't mean you need to tip. Be confident tipping what you feel is appropriate and sometimes that is nothing. If you enable the behavior it will keep spreading. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]carbonclasssix 9 points10 points11 points 1 year ago (2 children) I agree with this, and IME most people don't react at all, let alone make a fuss over it. I think a lot of people are afraid of being lectured or some kind of confrontation, which is very unlikely to happen. Kind of like how they say, don't worry about what people think about you because they don't think about you as much as you think they do. Most people want to avoid a confrontation as much as you do. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]PhysicsCentrism 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (1 child) Yeah, having worked a fast food job years ago, before the iPad tipping norm, most of my time spent at the register was spent thinking about what I wanted to do when I got home and how to optimize whatever video game I was playing at the time iirc. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) [-]carbonclasssix 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (1 child) and the total after tax is what's expected to be tipped on? Dang, I never even thought about this. That's pretty lame. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]Ready_Revolution5023 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (0 children) Right. A 20% tip on your subtotal used to be excellent. Everything costs more now as it is and several places start default tipping (kiosk checkout at table) at 25-30% now of the taxed total. It makes me want to leave no tip at all because it's so grossly abused. But I've waited tables before so I'll never be that person. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]KimonoThief 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) It's getting totally out of hand. It feels more like predatory guilt-tripping than an appreciation of exceptional service. Asking me to tip at a fucking Carl's Jr drive thru? I only interacted with you for a grand total of 30 seconds. Why don't you give me some extra food or a discount to show how much you appreciate my kindness as a customer and the time I spend driving over to help support the restaurant? * permalink * embed * save * report load more comments (6 replies) [-]Heavy_Ad_4430 70 points71 points72 points 1 year ago (3 children) I was raised in Mexico, so my views on tipping are different than those of someone born and raised here, but I always thought that tipping was for a "above and beyond what was reasonably expected" service or quality of the meal Now I feel weird every time I grab a to go order and the screen is asking if i want to tip even though the waiters didn't offer any kind of service and I still don't know if the quality of the meal merits a tip I don't mind tipping 20% + for a good meal / service, but I'm definitely not on board for tipping by default, particularly not at 20 % * permalink * embed * save * report [-]Zucchinniweenie 13 points14 points15 points 1 year ago (1 child) Nope, I've seen people argue that you should still tip for bad service because they may just be having a bad day or because they live off of tips. It's bullshit considering some states mandate a minimum wage for servers separate from tips. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]KaryMullis1 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (0 children) Not some states. All states. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Feroc41[?] 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (0 children) I don't mind tipping 20% + for a good meal / service, but I'm definitely not on board for tipping by default, particularly not at 20 % Especially if there really isn't a service other than the actual work. Like a delivery service. If you already paid for the service itself, either with an extra fee or simply by paying more for the actual food, then there isn't much that could exceed the expectation of the service. Extra fast, extra hot, extra wishes that the delivery driver was involved in or something alike maybe, but for a standard delivery I usually just give 1 or 2 Euros to the driver. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]zogins 50 points51 points52 points 1 year ago (5 children) I am in Europe and from what I see on USA TV, your tipping culture is unfair on everyone and does not make sense. In my country when we go out for a meal we are not expected to give the server anything extra. For example if I pay with a credit card I'd never add anything extra as I know that it would go to the owner. However many servers are polite and helpful so it is not unusual to leave them some cash. But we only leave something like 5 euros even for a 50 euro meal. We also have men who deliver very heavy things such as gas cylinders and some people give them a small tip - but the tip is usually 50 cents to 1 euro. We do not feel bad about this because we know that these people are well paid. * permalink * embed * save * report load more comments (5 replies) [-][deleted] 1 year ago (3 children) [removed] [-]ImpureAscetic 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Consumers also need to stand their ground about what does and doesn't earn a tip. If you bring me something, okay, I'll tip. I don't tip at McDonalds, therefore of course I'm not going to tip at Starbucks or another place where I walk up and you bring me food at the counter. It's also ugly how the register companies use dark patterns to discourage not tipping. (High contrast buttons for tips, background blending on "skip" or "no tip" * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [-][deleted] 1 year ago (5 children) [removed] [-]Meagasus 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago (3 children) The other day I bought a ridiculously overpriced bottle of water at a kiosk inside a bus station. I got a Square prompt for a tip. The article OP is referencing said it would be "miserly" not to tip in that instance. Fuck that. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (1 child) But hey, that attendant had to take your card and swipe it! Oh wait... they don't even do that anymore.... * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Meagasus 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) Seriously! I don't even think the guy even looked up from his phone besides to scan the water. Brutal. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Caidan_Ciaphas 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) I only tip bars and waitstaff at real restrunts. I worked fast food, tips are not a thing there, nor kiosks. applebeas? sure because they are real waitstaff, mcdonalds? hell no. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) [-]MaggieRV 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (6 children) We definitely have to follow the Europeans on this one. Give servers and bartenders a proper wage, then educate the customers to what they are getting, what they are no longer expected to do, and to not be an asshole in the process. I worked at Denny's for 9 years. Upon leaving I went to a restaurant that was a step up, think of Applebee's, Red Lobster, etc. This was called Damon's, and it was all grilled & BBQ. There were two dining rooms, one being a traditional dining room, the other was over sized booths all facing in the same direction, arena style, with six big screens up on the wall. And each table had audio controls so they could listen to whatever screen they wanted to. They could get wireless devices for their table to play trivia. You could have the greatest customers, they got very excited and were right there with you. Or you could get the people that come in on Saturday at noon and stay until 9:00 p.m. and have only bought two yards of beer and an onion loaf (pre-blooming onion days) and wanted to leave you two dollars. We were not allowed to cash out our customers, or have another server take them over. So you stayed no matter what, and still only getting server hours. And if your shift was over, you were pulled from the floor still waiting on that table, and you were still only getting $2.17 an hour. Between the two dining rooms was the service station, the window to the bar, and the entrance to the kitchen. The entrance to the traditional dining room and the bar were at the front door. In order to get to the clubhouse you had to walk down a hall to get around the bar which was a considerable size, only to get to the clubhouse which was twice the size of the traditional dining room. During the week for lunch service because the bar was slow, they would give the bartender to take a section. For whatever reason they always wound up taking all the booths along the wall of the kitchen, which was the furthest thing away. Additionally they had tables and chairs in the bar, so they could have been seated there and had ample viewing of the big screens. So if your customers ordered a drink, you had to wait for the bartender to get around to you, and your customers had to sit and wait until hers in the clubhouse and in the bar were taken care of. And of course then we were expected to tip her out. Having worked every position including as a supervisor at Denny's, I knew which practices were wrong (illegal), and between being autistic, having ADD, and originally being from NYC, know that I do not have a filter. LOL. It goes without saying I was not everybody's favorite server. I was scheduled a weekend dinner shift, thankfully in the dining room. We had the head server/supervisor who had close to twice as many tables as everybody else, especially me. And of course everybody was expected to expedite her food, and prebus if they were walking past the tables, and they were set up so you had to walk through her section in order to get to the kitchen. Anyway, we have all this nonsense going on, and we're busy. And the busboys are taking their time, you know because they're high schoolers who are only there for a paycheck and to talk about and meet girls. Coming from Denny's I had hustle, so I'm bussing and resetting my own tables so I can make some money. We get to the end of the shift and it's time to tip everybody out, and I only gave them $2. They came at me, demanding to know what my sales were, because they knew that I didn't tip them out enough and besides there was three of them and you can't split $2 between three people. And they all made minimum wage... but I didn't. The manager got called into it, and they're trying to tell me that I'm obligated to tip them out based on my sales regardless of how many they actually bussed. It was one table, a 4 top that when they left only needed to be cleared of glasses, napkins, and my cash tip. So why again was I expected to give two dishwashers and a busboy a chunk of my tips? I don't think so. And it doesn't help that the public doesn't know or understand that servers are generally required to tip out. I worked at another restaurant of that caliber, if you will, and when the manager would pull the end of shift report, they would calculate how much we "owed" the bussers and the bartender, and factor that into how much we were told we had to pay! So you didn't even know half the time, how much they were taking out, how much everybody was getting out of your money. And servers get taxed on all of it, especially nowadays when everything's electronic, there's no way of reporting tips separately most of the time. So if you had a bad night, or they didn't do their job and you were doing it for them, it didn't matter. You're getting taxed on money you didn't earn, AND money that you didn't get to keep. And the dishwashers and busters all make minimum wage at least and do not have to report tips. As if all of that's not bad enough, I went through a Starbucks drive-thru about 15 years ago, and they had a tip jar hanging out the window! I asked them do you receive an hourly wage for what you do? Yes. Is it above or below minimum wage. I was told they made something like $8 an hour. Do you claim tips? "No, that's why we only get tips in cash." Excuse me?!? When I started waiting tables in 1984 I was making a $1.66 an hour, even though the rest of the table waiting world was getting $2.01 an hour. Somehow Denny's got some loophole back then that they didn't have to pay full minimum wage because they gave us one free meal either before or after our shift, and if we worked long enough to require a break, we would get a free meal then too. (Limited menu of course). Which was great, you'd rarely if ever seen anyone giving out free food now. But there was no opt-out, so if you chose not to eat, your wages weren't adjusted, so they paid us like shit because they could. Minimum wage was $3.35, and when I started cooking I made $3.85. 10C/ more than the guy they hired in off the street "even though I was female" because I already knew the menu. Boy did that make me feel appreciated... {insert eye roll here} and mind you, at the time, a cup of coffee with 50C/, and a Grand Slam breakfast was $1.99. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]DaRealBatmn 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (5 children) not sure why you are complaining about ur costumer base when you worked at a dennys and applebees I'm pretty sure people who eat there don't go there for an outstanding meal or service and likewise its fair you shouldn't except anything extra out of them, if you wanted to you could always work at a more formal restaurant and make way more money. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (5 replies) [-]iWizardB 20 points21 points22 points 1 year ago (3 children) What I hate about this tipping culture is that people are soooo brainwashed about it that instead of fighting the billionaire corpos to provide them living wages, people are fighting other people who are just like them and demanding that they shoulder that burden. If anyone says "I don't support tipping culture", people lose their goddamn shit and call that person all sorts of names! Why don't you realize it's not your customer's duty to provide your salary, it's your employer's. Get angry at the employer, not your fellow pleb citizen. But nope, indoctrination is too deep. * permalink * embed * save * report load more comments (3 replies) [-]AgentTin 25 points26 points27 points 1 year ago (8 children) I'm a pretty lonely guy these past couple of years. I'm pretty introverted so I don't need much but sometimes I'll head out to the local diner. I like being a regular, I like that the servers remember me, the cooks. It's not a special occasion but I'll put on a clean shirt and trim my beard, try and look like a human. It's really the only time I walk through a door and see someone's eyes light up, someone happy to see me. I'm not delusional, I know it's not my charming personality, it's that I'm a good reliable tip. But they do give a shit, they make sure my food is right, they get the coffee to the table before I sit down. It's not a lot but it makes me feel special for an hour or so. It feels good to have someone ask how my night's going, and pretend they care about the answer. It's a dumb reason to keep tips, your livelihood shouldn't be based on it. But outside Zoom meetings it's some of the only social interaction I get, sometimes for weeks, and I know they wouldn't give a shit about me otherwise. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]WasabiCrush 14 points15 points16 points 1 year ago (2 children) It might not all be the tip. Part of your good service might just be because you're nice to them. That's something to look forward to for these industry folk, especially as time moves along, here. People has gotten so mean. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]MajesticalMoon 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (1 child) You're right... I worked at a donut shop and this lady told me she really only comes there because I'm so nice. Sometimes you don't even realize the impact you have on people just by being nice to them and listening to them or whatever. I really would have never had a clue a customer would care about me that much. It was nice to hear tho * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]WasabiCrush 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) What a sweetheart she was to say something and how cool of you to get her there. That stuff makes such a huge difference on both ends. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Bangin40s_n_shorties 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (0 children) Don't be so quick to assume it's just the tip that makes them happy to see you! I waited tables for 13 years and there have been many customers I was genuinely happy to see. I was able to watch babies grow to toddlers grow to kids and then teenagers. I've been to at least two funeral services to pay respect for my regulars. I met many personalities, good and bad. If you're friendly to your service workers they'll often remember you fondly and some there were definitely some that I was happy to see come through the door. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]peteroh92[?] 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) The cooks aren't remembering you just because you tip the waiters well. There's more to it than that. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (3 replies) [-][deleted] 1 year ago (4 children) [removed] [-]itssbojo 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) Still an act of appreciation on my end. Here it's illegal to force mandatory tips or add them to a bill, so I simply do not leave a tip unless the service I'm provided shows it's deserving of one. Why would I give an employee who rolls their eyes, mutters, is inattentive, etc. any extra money? For doing their job poorly? * permalink * embed * save * report load more comments (3 replies) [-]NorwegianGirl_Sofie 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (2 children) To actually do something about this all food chains need to start paying their employees more. Which unfortuantely is quite unlikely. The alternative being that everyone just stops tipping, but that would mean that the employees would be heavily underpaid (as they already are, but the tips increases this pay). I myself live in a country where tipping isn't expected at all, and servers get paid enough which makes the US's tipping culture seem like madness to me, but it's unfortunately a system which is quite difficult to break. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]ZenoArrow 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (1 child) To actually do something about this all food chains need to start paying their employees more. Which unfortuantely is quite unlikely. It's unlikely unless the law is changed to make it mandatory. Ensuring all servers are paid at least a livable minimum wage would be something that could be pushed for. If some companies aren't able to survive the wage increases and close as a result, so be it, new companies will spring up in their place. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]NorwegianGirl_Sofie 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) Yeah, that's true. The only realistic way to make sure the employees are paid enough is to enforce some minimum wage. That's about how it works here in Norway, and yeah sure someone gets paid way less than what they are deserved, but they are atleast paid enough to live. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-][deleted] 1 year ago (1 child) [removed] load more comments (1 reply) [-]DirtyButtFun 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Why should I have to pay you when your employer should be paying you? Tipping has led to allowing employers to pay subpar wages and get away with it. * permalink * embed * save * report load more comments (1 reply) [-][deleted] 1 year ago (2 children) [removed] [-]sealing_tile 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago (0 children) I'm guess I'm pretty much a career bartender at this point, and I agree with you. I REALLY appreciate when people tip well and I try to go above and beyond for customers that I like. I have a lot of regulars who hit me with >20% tips frequently, so I feel like they deserve the best service I can offer them when they come in. Sometimes people don't require much and they don't want to open a tab or anything, so I'm really fine with getting ~15% tips on interactions like that. In fact, it makes me appreciate my regulars that much more, which circles back around to the original point of how tips really SHOULD be based on quality of service rather than some standardized expectation. * permalink * embed * save * report load more comments (1 reply) [-][deleted] 1 year ago (2 children) [removed] load more comments (2 replies) [-]meowpitbullmeow 13 points14 points15 points 1 year ago (18 children) The problem is Americans may not be willing to sacrifice the service they are used to getting in order to not tip. For example, when I visited Europe, a single server will be in charge of 15-20 tables easily. They never introduce themselves or say they're pleased to serve you today. They come, get your order, and leave. Free refills aren't a thing so they aren't watching your glass and bringing you drinks constantly. They are less likely to be amenable to changes on the food such as substitutions or additions. This is one of the reasons I, personally, believe restaurants can afford to pay their staff better in other countries, because they have fewer people working and each person is managing more tables. They're able to do this by providing "worse" service (really just less attentive). Less attention per table, more tables at once, more food being ordered, fewer people to pay. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]toothpasteonyaface 34 points35 points36 points 1 year ago (10 children) Honestly as a European I find the American waiters really annoying, they always act a bit too extra with the fake smiles and unnecessary compliments such as "wow, this is such a great choice sir" because they want to get a nice tip from you, but it feels so fake and forced and honestly, when I'm at a restaurant I really don't want the waiter to come every five minutes to come and ask me how my meal is going, if something's up I can always raise my hand and ask for them to come. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]meowpitbullmeow 9 points10 points11 points 1 year ago (0 children) As an American, I hate it too. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (9 replies) [-]wannabebrilen 8 points9 points10 points 1 year ago (2 children) As an American who also has lived in Europe, I feel the opposite. I felt like the service was fantastic in Europe. * Servers interact casually & naturally with you * Servers leave you alone to enjoy your meal * They aren't trying to upsell you on everything * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]meowpitbullmeow 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (1 child) I 100% prefer the European model. However how will Karen or your average boomer feel? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) [-]ACardAttack 10 points11 points12 points 1 year ago (1 child) They never introduce themselves or say they're pleased to serve you today. They come, get your order, and leave This part doesnt sound bad at all * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) [-][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) I don't need a waitress to chat w/me or try to make me feel I'm their friend. I just want them to bring my food and answer questions I might have. In Europe the service is impeccable, and they are not expecting a tip. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) [-][deleted] 18 points19 points20 points 1 year ago (21 children) The basic paradigm is wrong. "Companies externalizing the cost" has no functional difference then companies raising prices to the consumer, the cost for a restaurant meal nets out the same. So then you're left with the world as it exists in the US in 2023, the existing restaurant model, with tips, and some either service fee or raised prices restaurant model without tips. Having witnessed the changes in in airline and hotel business in the last 20 years (also both hospitality) consumers will choose 99.99999% of the time the option with the lower up front prices, even if it nets out more expensive in the end. So restaurant A pays workers the bare minimum (and they expect tips) and restaurant B serves the same food that costs 15% more on the menu, restaurant B is going to fold, quickly. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]themajorjoke 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (1 child) What I absolutely hate and despise is here where I live (Vancouver), most restaurants have a rule that if you are more than 7 people, then there is a 15% mandatory. They add this onto your bill and you HAVE to pay it. Just call it a service fee then because a tip shouldn't be mandatory. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) [-]PhysicsCentrism 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago (3 children) I've got a formal education in econ and I disagree. There are behavioral effects from tipping and the owner will continue to set prices for profit maximization which isn't necessarily a price increase as large as tips were. I do agree about the competitive disadvantage for restaurants which don't tip which also goes to the behavioral economics piece. Hence why I think the problem needs to be resolved through legislation and supply side pressures. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (3 replies) [-]Catsdrinkingbeer8[?] 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (3 children) I disagree on the hotel and airline thing. If I'm booking a flight it's because my goal is to get to somewhere else in the shortest length of time. I have 10 options to pick from and they all offer the same general service - moving me from point A to B. When I do that activity 1 time a year I'll look for who gives me the best bang for my buck. If I fly more than once a year I'll probably care a little more. I'll pay for a main seat on Delta over a southwest ticket. The same is true for hotels. I COULD book the incredibly sketchy Motel 6 for $60 a night, or I can book the Comfort Inn for $120. I don't need a room at the JW for $500 per night, though. And again, I'm basing my choice on the handful of options at my destination. With restaurants it's different. What food do I want? Did the meal feel worth the price? Is it something I could have made better and cheaper at home? I'm currently typing this at a pho restaurant. There's a closer, cheaper pho place by my house, but their food isn't that good. I eat pho at least once a month. I care more about the quality of my food and I'll pay a couple more dollars for it. And I decide all of these places are too expensive, I have over 100+ other restaurant options within a 10 minute drive. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (3 replies) [-]ac21217 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (9 children) no functional difference Goes on to explain the primary functional difference... * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (9 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [-]merlynmagus 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (1 child) Saturday I went to a local Italian grocery store to get some specialty ingredients. The screen at the counter asked me if I wanted to leave a 15%, 25%, or 30% tip. For what? Only thing I could think of was they sell sandwiches (which I did get, but out of the cold case.) Who am I tipping on my grocery bill? * permalink * embed * save * report load more comments (1 reply) [-][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) I used to roll my eyes when I heard people say this sort of thing, because I used to waitress and bartend and I understand the pros outweigh the cons in a restaurant business model. However, I agree with you that it's way out of hand right now. In a sit-down restaurant, I agree that by sitting down, I'll tip minimum 20% because the servers get a lower than minimum tipped wage. Same at a bar. I don't mind leaving a smaller tip at a coffee shop or casual restaurant where you order at the counter, even though those employees aren't subject to a tipped wage. However, tipping expectations have extended to a square prompt at places where you're basically just buying something without taking up space for longer than it takes to pick a couple of items up, and nobody is taking a special order for you. I got a square prompt to tip at a convenience store the other day picking up drinks and granola bars. I live in a place with legal weed and just found out that apparently the person who runs your card or takes your money at the weed store is a "bud tender" and is expecting tips, even though they make $15/hr and you just leave after buying it. I could understand tipping if these places let you hang out and smoke, but they don't. The next step is tipping for groceries and at normal retail stores. I think it's time to stop going along with it. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]Weekly-Sentence-5380 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) Yep, and the deeper evil is that when they do externalize costs, commercial real estate knows that restaurants can absorb a greater hit to their bottom line and so jack their rents up which in turns raises meal prices which in turn raises tips even more. It's fucking absurd and has gotten out of control, absolutely. By the time you're going to swivel your little Square iPad to me and ask me for a tip for counter service? No. Get out. That said, people don't tip their barbers/stylists nearly enough! So it's the restaurant industry in particular that sucks, and now I avoid going to sit-down restaurants at all costs except for special occasions or friends in town. Tipping at restaurants is inflationary and regressive for all. Bars that only serve drinks are a totally different story. They don't expect 20% of whatever you order! That's closer to how restaurants should (and used to) work. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]fantaribo 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) Anybody living somewhere where you don't have to tip (like where I live) knows that this tipping culture is abusive and disgustingly predatory for anybody involved apart from the owner. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]akhil_93 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (3 children) No sales tax on the tip. If the restaurant were to raise the price of the food enough to eliminate the tip, you'd pay sales tax on that higher amount. * permalink * embed * save * report load more comments (3 replies) [-]luikators 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) One of the things that annoy me the most about compulsory tipping cultures is that they allow entrepreneurs outsourcing their risk to below-minimum-wage employees. If in a restaurant where tipping is expected, for some reason no customers show up in a month, the waiters go empty. If the same thing happens in a restaurant where waiters are paid a living wage, the big boss has to take a cut to his profits. The latter seems a lot preferable to me. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]AlexZenn21 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago* (0 children) Tipping shouldn't have ever existed in the first place. Companies should be paying everyone a normal wage and if customers want to tip it's because they feel like it not because it's expected or needed of them. It's should be strictly out of generosity if they feel the worker did extra in the role * permalink * embed * save * report [-]TheDunadan29 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Nope. Ain't gonna change that view. But I can add some fuel to your fire: https://apnews.com/article/ tipping-fatigue-business-c4ae9d440610dae5e8ff4d4df0f88c35 * permalink * embed * save * report [-][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago* (0 children) Wow that's messed up. For those who didn't click the link, there are apparently folks out there being asked to tip on their mortgages. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]CaptainofChaos2[?] 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (2 children) Is getting out of hand? It became out of hand the moment that it became legal to pay sub minimum wage to service workers because of the tip expectation. While that exists its pretty much impossible morally to just not tip on principle. If you got your food/service then you should tip. Full stop. The percentage is malleable depending on location, but if you are getting a meal in a HCOL area like New York, 20% is very reasonable. * permalink * embed * save * report load more comments (2 replies) [-][deleted] 1 year ago (1 child) [removed] load more comments (1 reply) [-]StrangerThanGene6[?] -2 points-1 points0 points 1 year ago (4 children) I believe that the expectation of regular tipping is really just a way for companies/corporations to externalize the costs of paying employees a living wage and putting those costs on the customers. Which is bullshit. So, it doesn't matter why it happened in the first place - what matters now is the result it has produced - and whether or not you're willing to give that up. I'm only going to use restaurant servers as the example, as they are the primary tipped occupation. E.g. - A server makes $2.15/hr (the fed tipped min). Works a six hour shift, and makes $250 in tips. Let's run those numbers really quick. That's $2.15 in hourly compensation - and $41.67 average hourly in tips for a total of $43.82/hour. To make that $250 in tips over six hours, we would expect a minimum of 20% ring - which means the server rang at least $1250 during the shift. So - there are two possible outcomes here if you want to change it. 1. Remove the tipping altogether - and force employers to pay servers ~$40/hour. This means your labor cost % is going to skyrocket across your entire meal. We can run those numbers in a minute. 2. Remove the tipping altogether - and force restaurant server to work for actual minimum wage. This is the service level you get at your local McDonald's. Which one works better than the current system we have now? Honestly. Do you want to take a hit in your service or your bill - because one of them is going to absorb the missing compensation in terms of value. Regarding labor costs... the entire restaurant industry operates basically on 30% being your labor cost. E.g., if at any point in the day my labor cost is exceeding 30% of my total cost of running open - I need to cut some employees off the clock. Because labor is only one piece of my expenses - food, utilities, rent, insurance, taxes, etc., all eat into that $5 burger on your table. So - now that you've argued to blow up my labor costs by 181%... how am I going to stay in business at all? You just cut in and way over any profit line that existed. The money has to come out of somewhere else if you're sticking it in somewhere - and restaurants don't have massive profit margins in the first place. So I'm struggling to see how you think this has any sort of practical place. * permalink * embed * save * report [-]og_mclovin 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (0 children) Your labor costs may increase 181% (I don't really see the two numbers you're comparing but that's fine). But that cost is covered by increasing the price of everything on the menu by 20%, not 181%. The total revenue is the same, the customer pays the same amount total. It's just that all of it goes to the business, and they pay out to the wait staff instead of them getting tips directly. It should all add up to the same amount, no net change in profits. (In reality maybe payroll taxes are a bit higher if it goes through the business, I dunno). The problem would be that 99% of restaurant owners would scoff at actually paying that much to servers directly and not do it, even though they were indirectly paying that much anyway. So they wouldn't pay and servers would go elsewhere. Plus customers would leave for lower perceived cost as well, even though it's not lower. So we wouldn't be able to switch off of the tipping system unless a law was passed so that every single restaurant had to switch at the same time. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]hipnaba 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) well you shouldn't be in business. that's the crux of the matter isn't it? people want to be EnTeRpReNuErS, but they are incompetent, so they feel entitled to owning bad businesses that depend on exploiting their workers. if you can't run a business which pays it's workers fairly, you shouldn't be in that business. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report [-]Feroc41[?] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) So - there are two possible outcomes here if you want to change it. Or something in between. The question would be: What's a fair wage for a server? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report load more comments (1 reply) [-]Kytoaster 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) I went through a fast food drive through yesterday and they had a tip jar. I was thoroughly confused... * permalink * embed * save * report load more comments (203 replies) * about * blog * about * advertising * careers * help * site rules * Reddit help center * reddiquette * mod guidelines * contact us * apps & tools * Reddit for iPhone * Reddit for Android * mobile website * <3 * reddit premium Use of this site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy. (c) 2024 reddit inc. All rights reserved. REDDIT and the ALIEN Logo are registered trademarks of reddit inc. Advertise - local [pixel] p Rendered by PID 81805 on reddit-service-r2-loggedout-65bccc4b5c-hj8xk at 2024-09-11 23:02:09.809777+00:00 running c9d806b country code: US.