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166 * 75 comments
DEF CON's response to the badge controversy
 
62 * 5 comments
Crowdstrike President @ Pwnie awards
 
40 * 3 comments
[9ZDQGkwS]
Entropic's Statement
 
60 * 53 comments
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Defcon stiffs badge HW vendor, drags FW author offstage during talk
 
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Close up shots of the defcon32 badge board, confirming the existence
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Lol in a urinal
 
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DEF CON's response to the badge controversy (self.Defcon)

submitted 4 hours ago by DCsleestak

DEF CON thrives on community collaboration and has operated for over
30 years successfully working with hundreds of vendors including the
dozens that have helped with our badges over the years. For this
year's Raspberry Pi badges, DEF CON hired Entropic Engineering to do
the hardware development and firmware. After going overbudget by more
than 60%, several bad-faith charges, and with a product still in
preproduction, DEF CON issued a stop work order. Any claims that DEF
CON did not pay Entropic Engineering for its hardware or firmware
development are false. Unfortunately, we heard that these issues with
Entropic Engineering were not unique to DEF CON. We decided at that
point to finish the badge on our own. We paid to send engineers to
Vietnam to work onsite to finalize and test the badges in order to
ensure they would be done on time for the conference. We never
removed Entropic Engineering's logo from our badge, it is still on
the PCB. However, Entropic was not involved in the design and
production of the case, and we removed their logo we had added as a
courtesy.

We were happy to still include one of their contractors on the badge
panel session. Unfortunately, shortly before the talk was set to take
place DEF CON became aware that unauthorized code had been included
in the firmware we had paid Entropic Engineering to produce, claiming
credit for the whole badge and promoting their coin wallet to solicit
money from DEF CON attendees above and beyond what we had negotiated.
When asked about the unauthorized code, the engineer said it had been
done as a "joke" two months ago and forgot to remove it, and we
decided as an organization not to have him on stage while we kept the
slides in the talk giving him credit for his work. We communicated
the change in advance of the talk, and this individual decided to
show up for the panel anyway. He refused to leave, demanding that our
security team remove him. Wanting to ensure that the other people
involved in creating the badge were able to deliver their
presentation, we complied with his wishes and escorted him off the
stage, where he was free to continue attending the conference.

Any issues of non-payment are between him and Entropic Engineering,
DEF CON fulfilled its financial obligations.

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[-]288585B8804A2 65 points66 points67 points 3 hours ago (7 children)

Entropic Engineering's statement on the matter can be found at https:
//www.entropicengineering.com/defcon-32-statement .

To prove authenticity, check the creation date of this account :
hextodec(288585B8804A2) [this username] yields two numbers that are
on the badge PCB, one number is visible near the edge, the other is
hidden. If anybody is curious - they are the phone numbers for my
grandparents modem - which I used to start one of the local DC groups
in Malaysia as a teenage kid many years ago.

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[-]decay_cabaret 29 points30 points31 points 2 hours ago (4 children)

So wait... You're saying that you discounted the last invoice you
sent by 25% so that you would not go over the total agreed upon
budget, and that you did not, in fact, attempt to charge DC Badge
team more than the agreed upon budget prior to the stop work order?

Just trying to understand the facts here because it sounds like you
basically managed to do the fucking impossible, and still came in at
the target budget (by discounting the labor and materials to
guarantee you stayed under budget)but then out of the blue they're
like "stop everything, we're not paying that amount we agreed to.
Instead we're offering you this even SMALLER amount that we will NOT
negotiate on and if you don't like it, get bent."?

Is that essentially the gist of it?

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[-]288585B8804A2 22 points23 points24 points 2 hours ago (3 children)

As far as I understand it - my opinion only - we had been given
agreed upon a per badge cost and we discounted our work (and
indicated a willingness to discount further) to keep it at target as
we had agreed to.

We sent updated cost forecasts regularly but it seems updated ones of
these were not seen until too late. I want to be fair to them, there
were a million emails running around as you might suspect and those
later forecasts were easily missed - everybody was working almost
around the clock with very little sleep.

But yes - we discounted our work to hit those targets. I also now
understand that there were further minor external expenses that we
were not involved with (e.g lanyards). Our forecast missed those
since we were not involved in those expenses. I take responsibility
for our part in this oversight - we tried to do everything possible
to provide the community with the badge they deserve and I wish we
were better taken care of in the process and accordingly credited.

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[-]manidontknowlikewha 2 points3 points4 points 1 hour ago (1 child)

Were these pre-agreed cost commitments? It reads like you agreed to a
fixed fee, and your would-be but non-contractual hourly rate was
higher. But that rate wasn't what was agreed to. Is that correct?

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[-]decay_cabaret 7 points8 points9 points 1 hour ago (0 children)

It sounds like, to me, they agreed upon a budget, EE stayed inside
that budget by discounting things on their end, cutting into their
bottom line significantly, and then were told they had to take even
less money or get nothing at all.

Meanwhile DC is saying that EE came in at more than 60% over budget
and that's what caused them to issue the stop work order and send out
their own people to finish the job.

This is a whole lot of fuckery, and I am personally landing on the EE
side of things for 100% purely personal reasons because of stuff like
"well, EE didn't design the case and since we made them stop working
on the internals so we could finish the last 10% of the work, we took
their name off the case"... That's the kind of thing people who have
burned me in the past have said, so my feelings are 100% anecdotal
personal bias.

But my opinion doesn't really matter anyway: I'm not involved in the
situation, I am not there this year, and I'm nobody important. I just
asked for a little clarity on the situation so that it might help
other people like me who read about it and went "what in the actual
hell is going on here?!"

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[-]decay_cabaret 2 points3 points4 points 1 hour ago (0 children)

Damn. That's messed up.

I wasn't able to go this year, but y'all have my respect for
basically doing the impossible. I'm sorry you got shafted and
maligned in the process. That's really fucked.

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[-]snowden2020 13 points14 points15 points 3 hours ago (0 children)

I spent way too long on this:

```

            0x288585B8804A2 71286302 7561634 ```

PJ7561634 in this image below:

https://preview.redd.it/
close-up-shots-of-the-defcon32-badge-board-confirming-the-v0-i4od0r0kquhd1.jpg?
width=6000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=
997ab72927eefabfefb8c686f279ded03e8f00e8

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[-]aestetix 4 points5 points6 points 2 hours ago (0 children)

Are you able to say how much money is involved? I keep seeing
percentages, but I'd be interested to know what the originial costs
were, how much they increased, why they increased, and so on.

If not it's ok, it's mostly just to get a solid idea of the
situation. I want to also respect your privacy.

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[-]dmitrygr 48 points49 points50 points 2 hours ago (2 children)

Get your shit straight. I was not anybody's contractor or
subcontractor. I'm not employed by entropic nor by you. I did this in
my free time so attendees could have a fun badge.

And issues of payment are between you and entropic.

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[-]Activate_The_Robots 2 points3 points4 points 53 minutes ago* (0
children)

Who asked or invited you to do the work?

Or, perhaps a better question: how did your code end up running on
the badge? Did you provide it to someone at Defcon, to someone at
Entropic, or was it some other way?

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[-]ryanlrussell 1 point2 points3 points 18 minutes ago (0 children)

Couple of questions if you're willing to entertain them. No hostility
or accusation intended, I'm just curious. You're the one who put the
Easter egg in, yes? Why does it credit Entropic rather than or in
addition to yourself? You were aware of the dispute when you put the
Easter egg in? Who has control of the payment address on that screen?

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[-]autobahn 37 points38 points39 points 4 hours ago (3 children)

I wonder who they'll find to do the electronic badge next time? List
is probably pretty short at this point willing to work for peanuts
and exposure.

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[-]NDN-null 3 points4 points5 points 34 minutes ago (1 child)

Sounds like the playbook of an Orange person

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[-]cluehq 0 points1 point2 points 5 minutes ago (0 children)

I got dragged in another thread for stating as much but that's DC for
you.

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[-]jercos -1 points0 points1 point 28 minutes ago (0 children)

Any number of hackers should be happy to work on the next DEF CON
badge... and by work, I mean pocket the money and ignore calls from
Jeff.

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[-]girlhax 40 points41 points42 points 3 hours ago (4 children)

There are consistently talks of issues with the badge runs every year
- and it's become clear that DC isn't giving the folks creating these
badges the time (and potentially $$$) it takes to create a mass
hardware run like this. I can imagine the margins on these badges
aren't exactly large either.

I do love DEFCON a lot, but honestly to me it seems most of these
issues are recurrent, and solved by $$$ and planning. This extends to
the veteran physsec / SOC lead quitting this year due to being
uncompensated.

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[-]autobahn 26 points27 points28 points 3 hours ago (1 child)

I was actually sort of blown away at the numbers thrown around for
the per unit badge budget. It seemed ridiculously low. My
understanding is defcon got a sweetheart deal for the Pi chips.

I think defcon has gotten too ambitious with the badges and is asking
for too much to be done with table scraps budget. The SD card quality
is evident of this.

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[-]Truth-Miserable 9 points10 points11 points 2 hours ago (0
children)

Entropic is a pi partner and suggested to the raspi foundation that
they give the chips to DC for free, which is what they wound up doing

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[-]4DigitPin 9 points10 points11 points 3 hours ago (1 child)

Do you have more info about the SOC lead quitting? Haven't heard
about this

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[-]WarboyX 12 points13 points14 points 2 hours ago (0 children)

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/
securitybuilder_after-15-years-i-have-retired-from-leading-activity-7216898762441400321-TiMx?
utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_android

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[-]ncc74656m 28 points29 points30 points 3 hours ago (0 children)

Given the claims of extracted free labor by some people very close to
and very high up the ladder in the DC world, and the seemingly
corroborative story as portrayed by Dmitry, I'd be curious to see if
DC could provide any proof of their side of the story. Not so much
out of doubt, but out of an interest in seeing DC salvage its
reputation here.

The hacker community has long had issues with folks who have
delusions of grandeur and persecution complexes, (no accusations to
anyone on either side - a general statement on the community). It
would help restore trust to the DC community given that we have had
this seeming abandonment by high level folks, the Caesars issue, last
year's badge problems, the significantly increased entry costs, and
now this.

I'm sure there are many who want to believe that DC still holds its
core values. Are there more than words here?

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[-]freshapocalypse 13 points14 points15 points 3 hours ago (0
children)

The end of the con talk will surely be interesting.

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[-]GoodEffect79 11 points12 points13 points 2 hours ago (1 child)

DEFCON should release their agreement with EE, proving their claim of
EE's obligation to supply firmware and their rights as far the
content and distribution of it.

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[-]cluehq 0 points1 point2 points 4 minutes ago (0 children)

The only way anyone will ever see this is through discovery as a
result of a lawsuit.

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[-]4DigitPin 34 points35 points36 points 4 hours ago* (0 children)

That's not what the easter egg says though? They didn't claim credit
for the whole badge. The entirety of the text in the Easter egg:

Entropic Engineering

Hardware design by Entropic

Stolen credit returned.

donate:

(I'm not typing out the wallet address)

[any key to exit]

Also, Dmitry has said multiple times, on reddit, on discord, and in
person that he has zero issues with Entropic, it's kind of shitty to
imply that's the case

Link to photo of easter egg

Link to Entropic Engineering's statement

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[-]shrekhandz 23 points24 points25 points 4 hours ago (0 children)

This adds some interesting color to the situation

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[-]aestetix 14 points15 points16 points 4 hours ago (2 children)

    When asked about the unauthorized code, the engineer said it had
    been done as a "joke" two months ago and forgot to remove it, and
    we decided as an organization not to have him on stage while we
    kept the slides in the talk giving him credit for his work.

Can you elaborate on why you made this decision?

Also, how long before the talk did you "communicate the change", and
how did you do this communication?

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[-]dmitrygr 26 points27 points28 points 3 hours ago (1 child)

They told me over the phone less than 30 minutes before the talk that
I would no longer be welcome in it. They offered me the option for me
to apologize and I said that I would happily state that I meant to
offend nobody. they told me that was not good enough. The rest you
see in the video

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[-]sh4na 16 points17 points18 points 2 hours ago* (4 children)

Crediting people for the work they've done is not a "courtesy", my
dudes, it is the bare minimum, regardless of when they did the work,
whether you're still working with them, or whatever business disputes
you might have. Your booklet says RPi did all the work - and that's
obviously untrue, isn't it?

The extremely sorry spectacle of goons physically manhandling a
person is just the cherry on top of this shitshow - you're lucky to
not have gotten a criminal charge thrown at you. Amateur hour.

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[-]Upper_Butt 1 point2 points3 points 2 hours ago (1 child)

    Crediting people for the work they've done is not a "courtesy",
    my dudes, it is the bare minimum, regardless of when they did the
    work, whether you're still working with them, or whatever
    business disputes you might have. 

This depends entirely on the terms of the contract, which neither of
us have access to.

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[-]n0v0cane 5 points6 points7 points 1 hour ago (0 children)

There's the contract and there are the expectations of the hacker
community. DC should be meeting both, imo.

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[-]bobbytabl3s 0 points1 point2 points 16 minutes ago (0 children)

It's actually very rare in the commercial world.

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[-]Herrsrosselmeyer 9 points10 points11 points 1 hour ago (0
children)

Unauthorized code? At DEFCON? scandalous. Who ever heard of such a
thing? Truly worth stiffing the guy who donated piles of free labor
out of the exposure which was his only compensation. Obviously it was
more important that you throw your toys on the floor and stomp over a
harmless easter egg that called you out.

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[-]0373 24 points25 points26 points 4 hours ago (0 children)

And the pwnie award for lamest vendor response goes to Defcon! 

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[-]mperklin 17 points18 points19 points 3 hours ago (15 children)

    However, Entropic was not involved in the design and production
    of the case, and we removed their logo we had added as a
    courtesy.

If you acknowledge Entropic made the PCB and wrote the firmware, why
do you claim adding their logo to the badge was only a "courtesy"?
Didn't it take MORE work to add the logo to the design and then scrub
it off later before production?

Yes it sucks a vendor went 60% overbudget and had to be ordered to
stop work. But it sounds like they still delivered the PCB and the
firmware.

Listing contributors in the credits of a project isn't a
courtesy--it's expected. I just pulled out a bunch of electronic
badges from previous DEF CONs and I see Kingpin, MK Factor, Parallax,
etc. This shows DEF CON has a history of crediting the companies that
make their badges.

And when comparing what the PCB+Firmware do for the badge vs. what
the case does for the badge... it's pretty clear that Entropic's work
contributed far more to the whole than the plastic case did.

Spin it how you want, but to me it seems DEF CON's decision to remove
the largest contributor's logo from this year's badge is what led to
this drama--not Entropic's inability to keep costs within budget.

Sure, Dmitry's ask for donations isn't a good look on him either, but
it seems to me that had he been credited for his work, he wouldn't
have had an incentive to add an easter egg adding his company's name
back onto the badge in the first place.

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[-]dmitrygr 19 points20 points21 points 3 hours ago (2 children)

I did not ask for any donations to me and have been refusing them all
morning while I was signing badges today. You will easily find
witnesses of me, refusing money from people all morning

I did this for free and I have received no compensation from anybody
before, or since.

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[-]mperklin 5 points6 points7 points 2 hours ago (1 child)

Thanks for that clarification.

Adding Bitcoin and Ethereum addresses to the easter egg appears as a
solicitation of funds, and it is not clear whether the addresses you
added are controlled by you, Entropic, or another entity.

I hope you can see how someone (like me) could so easily misinterpret
displaying these addresses as asking all DEF CON attendees for
donations.

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[-]lestofante -1 points0 points1 point 47 minutes ago (0 children)

It is an easter egg, you have to know the specific code and input it.
Very unlikely to find about it if you are not actively looking for
them or someone tell you about it

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[-]autobahn 8 points9 points10 points 3 hours ago (11 children)

Important to note Dmitry doesn't work for Entropic

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[-]mperklin 2 points3 points4 points 2 hours ago (0 children)

Thanks for the correction

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[-]pablopeecaso -1 points0 points1 point 2 hours ago (8 children)

Huh? That makes little sense. Explain please.

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[-]autobahn 2 points3 points4 points 2 hours ago (0 children)

He is not an employee of their company.

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[-]TetrisMcKenna 3 points4 points5 points 2 hours ago (0 children)

He wrote the firmware for the device in his free time.

He wasn't employed by Entropic (hw designers) or Def Con but did it
out of good will to both.

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[-]Iguana_Bench_86 2 points3 points4 points 2 hours ago (0 children)

He clarified already, Dmitry was doing this developement for free and
still does not want any money.

The easter egg was about the costs EE never got reimbursed from
Defcon, in their statement they also say didn't ask for this but
Dmitry added it by himself

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[-]GoodEffect79 2 points3 points4 points 2 hours ago (4 children)

His work for Entropic seems to be as a freelancer. Entropic pulled in
Dmitry to build the firmware. He seems to have agreed to donate his
time and effort to the Con (and/or his agreement to not get paid
after DC's lack of payment). He continued his contributions even as
DC's relationship with Entropic sour'ed. His Entropic easter egg
(seems hard to find to me) was likely meant to give the Entropic team
their recognition, even if no one but them will ever end up seeing
it. I.e. like when Steve Jobs printed the signatures of the entire
dev team on the inner casing of the Macintosh.

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[-]theswordsmith7 0 points1 point2 points 1 hour ago (0 children)

Team signatures were also inside first RCA DSS (Dish Network) sat
receiver inner casing, circa 1995.

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[-]_ReD__ -1 points0 points1 point 53 minutes ago (2 children)

    like when Steve Jobs printed the signatures of the entire dev
    team on the inner casing of the Macintosh.

Err... not really... That wasn't Steve Jobs nor the Mac. The famous
signatures of the entire dev team (and Jay Miner's dog Mitchy) where
instead on the inside of the Amiga 1000 top cover.

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[-]GoodEffect79 1 point2 points3 points 42 minutes ago (0 children)

Idk what you are talking about and I don't care. https://
www.reddit.com/r/VintageApple/s/AhNXihtzZm

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[-]monocasa 0 points1 point2 points 36 minutes ago (0 children)

https://oneminutemacman.com/signatures-inside-original-macintosh-case
/

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[-]pablopeecaso -2 points-1 points0 points 2 hours ago (0 children)

Huh?

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[-]petermal67 3 points4 points5 points 1 hour ago (0 children)

Why do hacker conferences ALWAYS have BS drama like this? Seriously.
There's always badge issues, and a variety of other issues.

Hackerspaces also suffer from drama issues as well.

Just makes me want to avoid them and live in peace. Too old for this
bullshit.

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[-]Tognioal 13 points14 points15 points 3 hours ago (1 child)

Please pay these people for the work they did and issue a proper
apology for acting like an entitled POS corporation.

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[-]GoodEffect79 5 points6 points7 points 2 hours ago (0 children)

Anyone see the de-shitification talk today? On the same stage Dmitry
got hauled away from. Couldn't be any more ironic. Link likely to
die, will replace when officially posted. Timestamp was 1:51min from
start. https://www.youtube.com/live/YhuTmYGpgtM?si=ZfA9fyRp7FtEOavS

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[-]ardevd 2 points3 points4 points 2 hours ago (0 children)

So we're just silencing people over petty disputes now?

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[-]two-dollars 2 points3 points4 points 1 hour ago (0 children)

     escorted him off the stage, where he was free to continue
    attending the conference

I'm curious as to why he was outside the LVCC with the police
yesterday and then outside again today if he's free to attend?

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[-]evilalmus 1 point2 points3 points 1 hour ago (1 child)

Id like to know how we ended up with some large % of SD cards were
faulty causing people to need to go out and buy replacement cards in
order to have a correctly functioning badge.

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[-]dmitrygr 1 point2 points3 points 1 hour ago (0 children)

Most of the sd card budget was spent on printing on them in color.
(Yes), IIRC. Remaining per-card funds weren't enough to buy good
cards.

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[-]manidontknowlikewha 2 points3 points4 points 1 hour ago* (4
children)

Observations based on reading statements from both sides.

Entropic's response stinks to me.

Some perspective - I've negotiated millions and millions of dollars
in tech contracts for years.

You don't discount your charge by 25% to meet your contract
obligations. You either meet your bid or don't. Was it a time and
materials deal? A fixed fee? Phases? Their description on their
website makes it sound like they agreed to target and then it was
harder than they expected, and now they're spinning it as offering
some kind of discount because they screwed the bid.

Entropic signed their side of the agreement. Nobody else did.

Theres a lot of "but we tried soooooo hard" in their writeup. They're
playing the poor little guy card really hard in their writeup. Smells
bad. They got their tiny little company in front of all of DefCon,
and they saw the massive marketing opportunity that was for them. I
don't buy the victim line one bit. Absolute nonsense.

But including a "joke" (I call absolute BS) Easter egg asking for
money? If I had a vendor make some pop up hit my entire customer base
asking to fund THEM, I'd kick the absolute crap out of them. Lawyers
called in. No questions asked. if Dimitry put that in then kicking
him out was absolutely appropriate.

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[-]_ReD__ 2 points3 points4 points 1 hour ago (0 children)

I'm 100% with you on this. I've had a long experience in negotiating
and managing hardware development contracts since the '80s and what I
read in Entropic's response is exactly what most suppliers sing when
they screwed up and did not meet their part of the contract.

As for any attribution of fault, first of all the contract.

       Because a contract is a contract is a contract.

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[-]Iguana_Bench_86 4 points5 points6 points 1 hour ago (2 children)

To me, it sounds like Defcon had extremely bad communication and
tracking of this project, and in the end a less experienced
contractor got hit by a big hammer.

No matter how bad EE cost estimation was, they claim that they gave
monthly updates and projections, but at the end ( very late in the
Project ) they got told that those were way off as they only tracked
their work, not the total project cost ( which is the responsibillity
of Defcon to overlook ). If they claim otherwise, then the only
logical outcome is that Defcon deemed that they will stop the work
after they get the prototype working - as it would be impossible to
find someone else to do it - and throw them under the bus on the
finishing details.

For the code matter, we all get that it was not a "joke"; just
something that Dmitry most likely answered on the spot, but in the
end, Defcon did also a snafu on this one as they cannot claim
unauthorized anything on code they dont own - or even worse - think
that they do.

Overall, it is clear that this is a whole mess as Project management
goes, and sorry to disagree with you, I find Defcon to blame, as they
were supposed to track this project and communicate things in a
productive way.

Instead.. even on this message they resort to hearsay and trying to
appear like they were in control... which they clearly were not.

As for getting Dmitry off stage for "unauthorized code" in a Hacker
conference, they both gave him a badge of honour and at the same time
stated their real nature, the one that every Hacker is against :)

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[-]manidontknowlikewha 0 points1 point2 points 1 hour ago (1 child)

I get that this isn't the place to go after someone for hacking
something, I'll cede that point :)

I'd need to see the contract to have more opinions. To me it's not
clear (maybe I need to re read) who owned what in this agreement.
Entropics response stinks bad to me though - when someone gets into
it with me on performance / contract issues, I go to the agreement.
Their response has way too much "but we tried" in it on the numerator
and way too little "here's how we held to our agreement" in the
denominator for me to believe they're innocent at this point.

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[-]Iguana_Bench_86 1 point2 points3 points 1 hour ago* (0 children)

I also do see that in the EE response ( lack of data and appeal to
emotion ), but generally account that to inexperience or/and lacking
a team that can do damage control and PR.

I do also expect that this is not the first time any project in
Defcon has gone wrong.

I guess what I say is that the handling and communication of Defcon
side was unfit and triggered a lot of backlash today.

In the end ( if ends up in court for example ) the emails, contacts
and deliverables will be clarifying the situation legally, that said,
issuing a stop work order pretty much equates as a late realization
of a situation or something less naive.

tbh, both sides appear bitter on this matter though, so I expect some
pretty standard angry emails to have been sent both ways before any
of this became public... Defcon though acted then with the priority
of delivering A badge, and I give them that, but most likely in the
cost of risking derailing this whole project they also chose to stop
interacting with it's creator.

In any case, I dont think Defcon lost more than EE did on this
matter, most people will forget about what happened as they did
eventually get their Badge, EE on the other side has too much drama
connected to their names atm, which is a shame, because they did seem
to have done a pretty good job hardware wise.

tldr; I do see your point on a legal/contractual view, but still
believe Defcon dealt this in a way that was not with the spirit of
collaboration with a less experienced contractor.

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[-]OriginalPlayerHater 2 points3 points4 points 2 hours ago (6
children)

DefCon is enshittified it seems. Time to move on, folks. Black Hat it
is

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[-]Tognioal 13 points14 points15 points 2 hours ago (2 children)

Instead of black hat, support your local conferences. Maybe even
start a conference if there aren't any locally.

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[-]4DigitPin 5 points6 points7 points 2 hours ago (0 children)

Putting CactusCon in Phoenix, Arizona as a suggestion! Been going
since around 2017, the con has always happened and delivered what it
promised. Don't let it being in Phoenix dissuade you, it's in January
so the heat isn't a problem lol

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[-]OriginalPlayerHater 4 points5 points6 points 2 hours ago (0
children)

yeah that would be sweet! I think smaller groups of people tend to be
better. I appreciate the suggestion and you get a VIP badge to my
future hacker conference in SoCal :)

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[-]_glitter_hippie_ 10 points11 points12 points 2 hours ago (0
children)

and you think defcon is enshittified...

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[-]evilwon12 5 points6 points7 points 2 hours ago (0 children)

Could not pay me to go to Black Hat. I have enough vendors calling me
with their flavor of the week already. Local contains maybe a bSides

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[-]n0v0cane 0 points1 point2 points 1 hour ago (0 children)

You do realize that black hat is founded and owned by the same person
who founded DC. But it's much more corporate friendly.

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[-]Slow-Special-2728 0 points1 point2 points 2 hours ago (0 children)

Probably Goon training 101 should be an agenda item for next year....

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[-]michael1026 -1 points0 points1 point 3 hours ago (1 child)

Always two sides to a story.

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[-]jeffofreddit 8 points9 points10 points 3 hours ago (0 children)

Three sides really

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[+]Double_Cap4731 comment score below threshold-7 points-6 points-5
points 2 hours ago (0 children)

Who gives a fuck.

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