https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2024/01/worldcon-in-the-news.html Charlie's Diary Being the blog of Charles Stross, author, and occasional guests ... [ Home ] [ FAQ ] [ Contact me ] [ Older stuff ] Back to: Same bullshit, new tin Worldcon in the news By Charlie Stross You've probably seen news reports that the Hugo awards handed out last year at the world science fiction convention in Chengdu were rigged. For example: Science fiction awards held in China under fire for excluding authors. The Guardian got bits of the background wrong, but what's undeniably true is that it's a huge mess. And the key point the press and most of the public miss is that they seem to think there's some sort of worldcon organization that can fix this. Spoiler: there isn't. (Caveat: what follows below the cut line is my brain dump, from 20km up, in lay terms, of what went wrong. I am not a convention runner and I haven't been following the Chengdu mess obsessively. If you want the inside baseball deets, read the File770 blog. If you want to see the rulebook, you can find it here (along with a bunch more stuff). I am on the outside of the fannish discourse and flame wars on this topic, and I may have misunderstood some of the details. I'm open to authoritative corrections and will update if necessary.) SF conventions are generally fan-run (amateur) get-togethers, run on a non-profit/volunteer basis. There are some exceptions (the big Comiccons like SDCC, a couple of really large fan conventions that out-grew the scale volunteers can run them on so pay full-time staff) but generally they're very amateurish. SF conventions arose organically out of SF fan clubs that began holding face to face meet-ups in the 1930s. Many of them are still run by local fan clubs and usually they stick to the same venue for decades: for example, the long-running Boskone series of conventions in Boston is run by NESFA, the New England SF Association; Novacon in the UK is run by the Birmingham SF Group. Both have been going for over 50 years now. Others are less location-based. In the UK, there are the British Eastercons held over the easter (long) bank holiday weekend every year in a different city. It's a notionally national SF convention, although historically it's tended to be London-centric. They're loosely associated with the BSFA, which announces it's own SF awards (the BSFA awards) at the eastercon. Because it's hard to run a convention when you live 500km from the venue, local SF societies or organizer teams talk to hotels and put together a bid for the privilege of working their butts off for a weekend. Then, a couple of years before the convention, there's a meeting and a vote at the preceding-but-one con in the series where the members vote on where to hold that year's convention. Running a convention is not expense-free, so it's normal to charge for membership. (Nobody gets paid, but conventions host guests of honour--SF writers, actors, and so on--and they get their membership, hotel room, and travel expenses comped in the expectation that they'll stick around and give talks/sign books/shake hands with the members.) What's less well-known outside the bubble is that it's also normal to offer "pre-supporting" memberships (to fund a bid) and "supporting" memberships (you can't make it to the convention that won the bidding war but you want to make a donation). Note that such partial memberships are upgradable later for the difference in cost if you decide to attend the event. The world science fiction convention is the name of a long-running series of conventions (the 82nd one is in Glasgow this August) that are held annually. There is a rule book for running a worldcon. For starters, the venue is decided by a bidding war between sites (as above). For seconds, members of the convention are notionally buying membership, for one year, in the World Science Fiction Society (WSFS). The rule book for running a worldcon is the WSFS constitution, and it lays down the rules for: * Voting on where the next-but-one worldcon will be held ("site selection") * Holding a business meeting where motions to amend the WSFS constitution can be discussed and voted on (NB: to be carried a motion must be proposed and voted through at two consecutive worldcons) * Running the Hugo awards The important thing to note is that the "worldcon" is *not a permanent organization. It's more like a virus that latches onto an SF convention, infects it with worldcon-itis, runs the Hugo awards and the WSFS business meeting, then selects a new convention to parasitize the year after next. No worldcon binds the hands of the next worldcon, it just passes the baton over in the expectation that the next baton-holder will continue the process rather than, say, selling the baton off to be turned into matchsticks. This process worked more or less fine for eighty years, until it ran into Chengdu. Worldcons are volunteer, fan-organized, amateur conventions. They're pretty big: the largest hit roughly 14,000 members, and they average 4000-8000. (I know of folks who used "worked on a British eastercon committee" as their dissertation topic for degrees in Hospitality Management; you don't get to run a worldcon committee until you're way past that point.) But SF fandom is a growing community thing in China. And even a small regional SF convention in China is quite gigantic by most western (trivially, US/UK) standards. My understanding is that a bunch of Chinese fans who ran a successful regional convention in Chengdu (population 21 million; slightly more than the New York metropolitan area, about 30% more than London and suburbs) heard about the worldcon and thought "wouldn't it be great if we could call ourselves the world science fiction convention?" They put together a bid, then got a bunch of their regulars to cough up $50 each to buy a supporting membership in the 2021 worldcon and vote in site selection. It doesn't take that many people to "buy" a worldcon--I seem to recall it's on the order of 500-700 votes--so they bought themselves the right to run the worldcon in 2023. And that's when the fun and games started. See, Chinese fandom is relatively isolated from western fandom. And the convention committee didn't realize that there was this thing called the WSFS Constitution which set out rules for stuff they had to do. I gather they didn't even realize they were responsible for organizing the nomination and voting process for the Hugo awards, commissioning the award design, and organizing an awards ceremony, until about 12 months before the convention (which is short notice for two rounds of voting. commissioning a competition between artists to design the Hugo award base for that year, and so on). So everything ran months too late, and they had to delay the convention, and most of the students who'd pitched in to buy those bids could no longer attend because of bad timing, and worse ... they began picking up an international buzz, which in turn drew the attention of the local Communist Party, in the middle of the authoritarian clamp-down that's been intensifying for the past couple of years. (Remember, it takes a decade to organize a successful worldcon from initial team-building to running the event. And who imagined our existing world of 2023 back in 2013?) The organizers appear to have panicked. First they arbitrarily disqualified a couple of very popular works by authors who they thought might offend the Party if they won and turned up to give an acceptance speech (including "Babel", by R. F. Kuang, which won the Nebula and Locus awards in 2023 and was a favourite to win the Hugo as well). Then they dragged their heels on releasing the vote counts--the WSFS Constitution requires the raw figures to be released after the awards are handed out. Then there were discrepancies in the count of votes cast, such that the raw numbers didn't add up. The haphazard way they released the data suggests that the 911 call is coming from inside the house: the convention committee freaked out when they realized the convention had become a political hot potato, rigged the vote badly, and are now farting smoke signals as if to say "a secret policeman hinted that it could be very unfortunate if we didn't anticipate the Party's wishes". My take-away: The world science fiction convention coevolved with fan-run volunteer conventions in societies where there's a general expectation of the rule of law and most people abide by social norms irrespective of enforcement. The WSFS constitution isn't enforceable except insofar as normally fans see no reason not to abide by the rules. So it works okay in the USA, the UK, Canada, the Netherlands, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, and all the other western-style democracies it's been held in ... but broke badly when a group of enthusiasts living in an authoritarian state won the bid then realized too late that by doing so they'd come to the attention of Very Important People who didn't care about their society's rulebook. Immediate consequences: For the first fifty or so worldcons, worldcon was exclusively a North American phenomenon except for occasional sorties to the UK. Then it began to open up as cheap air travel became a thing. In the 21st century about 50% of worldcons are held outside North America, and until 2016 there was an expectation that it would become truly international. But the Chengdu fubar has created shockwaves. There's no immediate way to fix this, any more than you'll be able to fix Donald Trump declaring himself dictator-for-life on the Ides of March in 2025 if he gets back into the White House with a majority in the House and Senate. It needs a WSFS constitutional amendment at least (so pay attention to the motions and voting in Glasgow, and then next year, in Seattle) just to stop it happening again. And nobody has ever tried to retroactively invalidate the Hugo awards. While there's a mechanism for running Hugo voting and handing out awards for a year in which there was no worldcon (the Retrospective Hugo awards--for example, the 1945 Hugo Awards were voted on in 2020--nobody considered the need to re-run the Hugos for a year in which the vote was rigged. So there's no mechanism. The fallout from Chengdu has probably sunk several other future worldcon bids--and it's not as if there are a lot of teams competing for the privilege of working themselves to death: Glasgow and Seattle (2024 and 2025) both won their bidding by default because they had experienced, existing worldcon teams and nobody else could be bothered turning up. So the Ugandan worldcon bid has collapsed (and good riddance, many fans would vote NO WORLDCON in preference to a worldcon in a nation that recently passed a law making homosexuality a capital offense). The Saudi Arabian bid also withered on the vine, but took longer to finally die. They shifted their venue to Cairo in a desperate attempt to overcome Prince Bone-saw's negative PR optics, but it hit the buffers when the Egyptian authorities refused to give them the necessary permits. Then there's the Tel Aviv bid. Tel Aviv fans are lovely people, but I can't see an Israeli worldcon being possible in the foreseeable future (too many genocide cooties right now). Don't ask about Kiev (before February 2022 they were considering bidding for the Eurocon). And in the USA, the prognosis for successful Texas and Florida worldcon bids are poor (book banning does not go down well with SF fans). Beyond Seattle in 2025, the sole bid standing for 2026 (now the Saudi bid has died) is Los Angeles. Tel Aviv is still bidding for 2027, but fat chance: Uganda is/was targeting 2028, and there was some talk of a Texas bid in 2029 (all these are speculative bids and highly unlikely to happen in my opinion). I am also aware of a bid for a second Dublin worldcon (they've got a shiny new conference centre), targeting 2029 or 2030. There may be another Glasgow or London bid in the mid-30s, too. But other than that? I'm too out of touch with current worldcon politics to say, other than, watch this space (but don't buy the popcorn from the concession stand, it's burned and bitter). Posted by Charlie Stross at 10:40 on January 26, 2024 | Comments (53) 53 Comments | Leave a comment Princejvstin # Princejvstin | January 26, 2024 12:02 | Reply 1: I am going to be at the Business meeting in Glasgow. And we will see what CAN be done. I never knew that the CCP was someone unhappy (or potentially, if this is a case of self-censorship) with me, personally, but here we are. Mikko # Mikko | January 26, 2024 12:02 | Reply 2: I'd be kind of happy if Helsinki had it the second time, as I missed the previous one for personal reasons. (Had the membership and all.) I'm not sure the people who did it want to do it the second time and how many new people there would be to help, though. The people I know who worked on it were quite exhausted, obviously. I hope the Chinese fans learned something from this. I'd be happy if also the Chinese government learned something good from this, but I doubt it. Karl-Johan # Karl-Johan | January 26, 2024 12:08 | Reply 3: I have a slightly different view of the pre-con troubles which ailed the Chengdu Worldcon. Basically, I believe the bidders were fairly clued into the formal requirements of running a Worldcon. They also believed or were sure of some form of meaningful government support (and I posit you cannot run a Worldcon without such support in some way; this is not unique to China). What I think happened is that that support simply didn't materialise for the first year after selection. Then about half a year before the con, outside assistance simply flowed into the con: it was very well organised from what I've understood afterwards. As for the Hugo (and Astounding (not a Hugo)) nomination irregularities, I'm not sure who to blame within the organisation. I believe they acted out of some misjudged self-censorship more than outside pressure. But I cannot see a way for Dave McCarty or Ben Yalow to ever be allowed near the Hugo award process in the future. Charlie Stross # Charlie Stross replied to this comment from Karl-Johan | January 26, 2024 12:19 | Reply 4: I posit you cannot run a Worldcon without such support in some way; this is not unique to China I am not aware of there ever having been official government support in the USA, UK, Ireland, Canada, Australia, or NZ, above the level of the local tourist board offering advice on hotels and conference centres. (The Dutch worldcon ... dunno, but probably not there, either.) Dictatorships rely on self-censorship to grease the wheels: I had some enlightening conversations with an East German SF author and sometime editor of the GDR's SF magazine (pre-1989) about how things ran. It was always easier for him to buy German translations of stories previously published in a Soviet SF magazine because the East German censor would rubber-stamp them, on the assumption that the Soviet censors had okayed the story already: anything else was more effort. Water flows downhill, and so does censorship. Elderly Cynic # Elderly Cynic replied to this comment from Charlie Stross | January 26, 2024 12:54 | Reply 5: Just a niggle. The USA or UK equivalent of the Chinese government includes a lot of privatised and even 'private' organisations, which maintain their position by implementing government policy. I doubt very much that any of them were involved, either, given the attitude to SF in our governments, but it's important to compare like with like. In particular, the USA and UK also rely on self-censorship to grease the wheels, though not to the extent of China. Again, the chances of that affecting an SF convention are piffling(*), largely because of total lack of interest, but I can assure you that it does affect conventions nearer to the government's agenda. (*) Unless it wanted a guest of honour from Palestine or Iran. Karl-Johan # Karl-Johan | January 26, 2024 13:05 | Reply 6: I might have a bit of expansive view of government support here, but here are some examples: * Having a local tourist board to help wrangle and coordinate convention centers and hotels is a hugely important and valuable service. * Glasgow 2005 had some important monetary kickbacks based on how many hotel beds they managed to fill. * Having higher-up people saying "this is important" is a wonderful way to grease the wheels. Dublin 2017 had a welcome from the president of Ireland. Helsinki had an opening reception for staff and select guests in the Helsinki city hall. Or the Beefeaters at Loncon 2014. The Dublin financial report (to the 2020 WSFS business meeting) also lists significant grants to the con. But I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the support didn't appear during the bidding phase. Karl-Johan # Karl-Johan | January 26, 2024 13:11 | Reply 7: In 6: The last sentence should have read: But I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the support mainly appeared during the bidding phase. DougMerrill # DougMerrill | January 26, 2024 13:25 | Reply 8: * Poznan, for example, puts on an annual volunteer-run convention that's roughly ten times the size of contemporary Worldcons. I've recently learned of Comiket in Japan, which is fan-run, twice annually, and has attendance in the range of half a million people -- two orders of magnitude larger than Worldcon. So Worldcons are biggish, but nowhere near biggest. (Although that in itself suggests a fix for some of what ails Worldcon: a hybrid LargeCon X/Worldcon Y is probably a viable model, especially now that 2021-23 have shown that Worldcon's schedule is more flexible than previous tradition would have suggested.) * Is the Uganda bid dead? I can't tell from just checking online. * Uncontested Worldcon bids have been more the rule than the exception over the last 15 years or so, I think. That points toward some long-standing challenges for the larger community. * This post from Ada Palm on censorship and self-censorship in the last few centuries is quite good. Takeaway: "The majority of censorship is self-censorship, but the majority of self-censorship is intentionally cultivated by an outside power." https://www.exurbe.com/tools-for-thinking-about-censorship/ Charlie Stross # Charlie Stross replied to this comment from DougMerrill | January 26, 2024 14:06 | Reply 9: Poznan, for example, puts on an annual volunteer-run convention that's roughly ten times the size of contemporary Worldcons. Yes, I've been a guest of honour at Pyrkon in Poznan and it was a trip. "Small regional convention" my ass! But also: it was more gaming and cosplay than written SF (although the written stream was huge in its own right), and they did stuff you won't find at a US or UK convention, like turning one of the halls in the international conference centre over for use by folks with sleeping bags who'd hitch-hiked in from all over Eastern Europe. On the hybrid con model: DragonCon in Atlanta would definitely be on the right scale to host a worldcon as a side-quest some time. David L # David L replied to this comment from Mikko | January 26, 2024 16:44 | Reply 10: I hope the Chinese fans learned something from this. I'd be happy if also the Chinese government learned something good from this, but I doubt it. I bet a memo/directive went out about how the local party leaders should more closely monitor clubs and such and when to report their activities "up the ladder". Plus some new and/or updated directives for clubs to follow. Andrew Plotkin # Andrew Plotkin | January 26, 2024 16:48 | Reply 11: and are now farting smoke signals as if to say "a secret policeman hinted that it could be very unfortunate if we didn't anticipate the Party's wishes". I would buy this if Dave McCarty were currently in China or were a Chinese citizen or were dropping hints to the effect of "yes, I can't say more but you're asking the right questions." But he's not and he's not and by all accounts he's upset that people are all upset? At him? If you're signalling for help, being a jerk to the rescuers is a non-obvious strategy. But I don't know the guy. Ben Yalow at least I remember from Usenet. DragonCon in Atlanta would definitely be on the right scale to host a worldcon as a side-quest some time. People keep mentioning this, but DragonCon is a for-profit con with its own award turmoil. I can't see Worldcon fans going anywhere near it. SDCC is a better example, being a non-profit. (Which I didn't know until this morning.) JohnS # JohnS | January 26, 2024 16:48 | Reply 12: They've had a comic con here in Raleigh and I don't know if you had to have a membership, but you could pay for admission at the door. I don't think those who paid to get in got to vote on anything, but they did get to attend the panel discussions & meet the celebrities (those who were willing to meet & sign autographs. Do the WorldCons work this way? Do they have paid admissions for non-members? Elderly Cynic # Elderly Cynic replied to this comment from David L | January 26, 2024 16:50 | Reply 13: They might learn that they should get someone competent to rig the results? It really isn't hard to manipulate such data enough that people might be suspicious, but it is plausible and very hard to prove to be forged. It does need a fair amount of statistical and related nous, but I am damn sure that China has plenty of such people. slybrarian # slybrarian | January 26, 2024 16:55 | Reply 14: As bad as the vote rigging in, the aftermath may well be worse, because it points to systemic problems rather than a one-off. There are way too many WSFS people who seem to be reacting by refusing to consider there's even a problem or that there could be a fix, out of what seems to be a reflexive and toxic reaction by the old guard / SMOFs to change or the thought of being wrong. I've seen a lot of other organizations, like service clubs and veterans halls, where elderly members keep a death grip on power, refuse to listen to The Youth (anyone under 60), and take the org into the grave with them. I've seen folks saying over on File770 that things like tabulating nominations are far too complicated for mere non-fen to comprehend and that there's no reason why each WorldCon should use the same software to count the final vote rather than coming up with their own solution. A lot of it seems to come down to the WSFS being run for decades by folks with a guiding principle of "you're not the boss of me." And then there's the critical legal vulnerabilities that people like Mike Dunford and Rahaeli on Bluesky have discovered, things that need to change immediately, not in three years after two successive business meetings. Between Kevin Stanlee and the MPC doing their best to post the trademark out of existence, a complete lack of basic corporate protections like D&O insurance or even expert legal advice, and sloshing tens of thousands of dollars around between different nonprofits, often across borders, it would be very easy to see the WSFS and many of its current and former officers get absolutely obliterated by a lawsuit. (You do not want a lawyer to describe your situation as "I didn't think that it was possible to accidentally RICO, and yet-") As it stands it seems like there's nothing to stop someone from just declaring that a hypothetical AvignCon is the real WorldCon other than popularity. Sadly, WSFS may just be completely incapable of dealing with these problems between its structure and the people involved. Charlie Stross # Charlie Stross replied to this comment from Andrew Plotkin | January 26, 2024 17:04 | Reply 15: SDCC is a better example, being a non-profit. (Which I didn't know until this morning.) SDCC, however, is so huge that worldcon would be invisible inside it. SDCC is capped around the 135,000 attendee mark because San Diego isn't big enough to hold more convention goers. Adding worldcon on top is good for and extra 5-10% on that headcount, so a bit of a challenge to accommodate without building several extra hotels. And SD's traffic/transit infrastructure has huge problems with comicon as it is (or did a decade ago, when a publisher sent me there). Charlie Stross # Charlie Stross replied to this comment from slybrarian | January 26, 2024 17:08 | Reply 16: I've seen a lot of other organizations, like service clubs and veterans halls, where elderly members keep a death grip on power, refuse to listen to The Youth (anyone under 60), and take the org into the grave with them. An alternative explanation: COVID19 ran through the USA with fire and the sword, worldcon runners tend to be older, and COVID19 causes dementia. "Mild: hospitalized but not on a vent" cases have been shown to experience cognitive impairment equivalent to 20 years of ageing. So you have a slightly ossified group trying to deal with a legal mess while suffering from just-barely-sub-clinical brain damage. David L # David L replied to this comment from Charlie Stross | January 26, 2024 17:26 | Reply 17: An alternative explanation: And more. Computer clubs / user groups where huge. Now they are geriatric get togethers of mostly retired people. It could be that SciFi conventions are in the early stages of this. But once the decline starts it can be swift. I'm involved in one. Once I and a few others got to asked "take over" we discovered years/decades of not filing required government paperwork by people who have left. Legally we don't exit. But we do have a moderate pile of cash. More than a nice dinner. Less than a decent car. So we're taking the bank account and forming a new organization. And plan to ask forgiveness if some agency gets upset. And there is a local Real Estate Investors group where I was on the mailing list. They put on interesting workshops about things such as how best to overhaul a 50 year old HVAC system. Their emails got sort of off kilter and odd then it blew up. Apparently there were two competing factions wanting to run the group. With accusations of stealing the bank account and such. Then COVID hit and I basically walked away. Greg Tingey # Greg Tingey | January 26, 2024 17:38 | Reply 18: Charlie @ 4 IIRC, the Dutch tourist people (VVV?) got very close to the Hague Con - to everyone's benefit. The hotel we stayed at tried to shaft us for the extra day(s) after the con was over ... we complained, politely to VVV - who came back & said: "don't worry" - you don't owe the hotel ANYTHING, now, glad you enjoyed the rest, come again soon!" whitroth # whitroth | January 26, 2024 18:16 | Reply 19: Several things about what OGH started this thread with: 1. Personally, I don't consider comicons as sf cons. What I refer to as Real sf cons cover everything[1]. Real sf cons are all 100% fan VOLUNTEER run. The top guests get transportation, food, and room covered, period. No "honoraria" or anything else - no one gets paid. 2. You can get a refund of your membership if you volunteer enough hours (and that amount of volunteering usually includes you get crash space with a bunch of others in a suite, and you get fed. But we're talking over 10 hours, and membership over 15 or so hours. 3. Charlie, I don't know about the 14k. The largest Worldcon I'm aware of was the only off-American one I went to, which was London in 2014, and they claimed 10k, including one-days. 4. I and a number of others were extremely aggravated at the new membership rules. As far as I'm concerned, they're bass-ackward. For those who don't know, you used to pay for a supporting or attending, and you could always upgrade $$$ from supporting to attending. 5. JohnS, this is a Big One: you do not buy a ticket to a real sf con. You are not an audience, to be entertained. You are a member, and part of it. And yes, this is a BIG DEAL to most of us. But yes, you can walk up and buy a one-day at the door (expensive). whitroth # whitroth | January 26, 2024 18:18 | Reply 20: Oh, the vote on Chengdu was something like somewhere between 700 and 900 for Winnipeg, and over 1900 for Chengdu. There were complaints, since it's been "what is your street address?" and many Chinese did not provide that. whitroth # whitroth | January 26, 2024 18:21 | Reply 21: One more thing: it appeared to me (I am an antiSMOF, so, from outside) as though a Chinese corporation came in to take over the running. That was when, suddenly, with zero warning, the date was changed by months (and many students were suddenly looking at Worldcon or their major exams). And to a new venue that wasn't even completely built. How much control the government had over that organization is unclear. Charlie Stross # Charlie Stross replied to this comment from whitroth | January 26, 2024 18:26 | Reply 22: The largest Worldcon I'm aware of was the only off-American one I went to, which was London in 2014, and they claimed 10k, including one-days. I understand the 1997 LA con ran to 6700-odd attending members: Loncon 3 in 2014 hit just short of 8000. The last two Glasgow worldcons were around the 4000 mark, but as of last summer membership sales were exceeding the same period in the run-up to Loncon 3, putting it on course to be the largest non-American worldcon ever. whitroth # whitroth | January 26, 2024 18:27 | Reply 23: Oh, and just to poke at OGH, the first even to call itself a con (well, conference) was Philcon, in 1936. It paused for several years during WWII, but... cons have been running a long, long time. This will annoy OGH because fans in Leeds organized an official con in 1937, whereas Philly was half a dozen fen taking the train frmo NYC to Philly, and spending a day visiting and talking SF (and visiting a bookstore) in '36, and deciding afterwards to call it a con, and it's kept going since) (Whoops this was supposed to be the footnote on my first post on this thread) One reason I'm very snotty about Real SF cons: right after lockdown, a FB group called "ConCellation: the con that's always cancelled before it starts" was created. I was in it for about a year, then quit. Maybe a month before I quit, someone posted, and I'm not making this up, asking "will everyone hate me if I jump fandoms?" That told me that they, and those they knew, were not sf fans, but franchise fans (aka "guaranteed studio revenue stream). Such a question would make no sense in normal sf fandom. whitroth # whitroth | January 26, 2024 18:29 | Reply 24: And one last post for now: people are infuriated at McCarty because when asked why certain authors were excluded, "they railed due to the rules, because they failed due to the rules". No explanation of what rules precisely. whitroth # whitroth replied to this comment from Charlie Stross | January 26, 2024 18:31 | Reply 25: We are coming to Glasgow. It may be our last trip off-continent ever (well, unless my upcoming novel hits the NYT best seller list). Which leads to a question: do I need to get a SIM card when we get in for my phone? I know it used to be the case that you couldn't use a US SIM.... Charlie Stross # Charlie Stross replied to this comment from whitroth | January 26, 2024 18:39 | Reply 26: Depends. If your phone does 4G/5G, it should be fine in the UK. 2G (GSM) is being switched off, with 3G following this year. You won't be able to use an old Verizon CDMA phone -- those only work in the USA and South Korea (and parts of Iraq). Note that not all 4G and 5G phones support all wavelengths, as different frequencies were allocated in different countries, so you may have iffy service. Check your phone's manual to find out which frequencies it operates on. Cheap pre-paid SIMs are readily available in the UK (in supermarkets and newsagents/corner shops). And you may be able to convince your US phone provider to give you international roaming (at a price). Wifi is fairly common and the hotels will provide it. In general data is faster and cheaper in the UK than in the USA (unless you live in a handful of very well provisioned cities). PilotMoonDog # PilotMoonDog | January 26, 2024 18:47 | Reply 27: On a related note. I was tempted to attend this year in Glasgow. But I tend to look at many of the big events that I might otherwise attend in the light of widepsread complacency over COVID and say, nope! Likewise a couple of game related events that I might otherwise be tempted by (FanFest for EVE Online and Tennocon for Warframe). I understand that Charlie will be going because as a writer it's a more or less a professional requirement. But how will you be dealing with risk mitigation? Mareino # Mareino | January 26, 2024 19:14 | Reply 28: I certainly don't have Worldcon-specific knowledge. But as a general matter, when you need to host a worldwide event in a nation that won't threaten the hosts or the guests, but you don't want to over-rely on the Anglosphere, you turn to the EU. My guess, from the other comments, is that in the short term there needs to be something to incentivize Poznan and/or Helsinki to take on one of the next few years, and then in the long term there needs to be a way to bring all the other EU nations' sci fi clubs up to the level where they could run a competent convention. (Of course, given how informal Worldcon is, I wouldn't know who to call to get a "draft the EU" movement off the ground.) whitroth # whitroth replied to this comment from PilotMoonDog | January 26, 2024 19:21 | Reply 29: Dunno 'bout anyone else, but we will be masking. Daveon # Daveon | January 26, 2024 19:28 | Reply 30: Like with all things Worldcon related I think the flow of events was slightly more complex that this - as others have said, the original team bidding knew what they were getting into but then having won the started working on the structure which is when it seems to get murky. Chinese cons have tended to function with sponsorship (or so I am told), local government and commercial - and I'm led to believe 2 things happened - firstly, the local government saw an opportunity for a new convention site and secondly, a large publication saw another opportunity. This led to a switch up in running it and the huge delay - it also led to the publication sponsoring to have some people involved. Somewhere around that point the 'floating' Worldcon committee parachuted in to help out. To be honest, I think at that point they thought all was going to be going well and while it wouldn't be a worldcon most would recognize it would be something new and amazing in a place with a younger and very energized fan base. Reading the translated Chinese comments there was a local impression the publisher was trying to stack the deck on the Hugo Awards rather than it being overt party interference (which I suspect also was happening but in the more traditional covert nothing is said but people know what not to even think of doing way). Arguably when the change in control happened and it was clear something was amiss the right thing to do would have been to reconsider the whole thing there and then but the WSFS constitution is designed to only do that at conventions and the window had passed - ironically two of the people who have been VERY aggressive about keeping things that way have been mentioned in this thread as those that then tried to steady the Chendu ship. I fear the right thing to do then would have been for Dave and Ben to resign immediately and deal with that fall out rather than do what they could. The real problem is the WSFS system and constitution has a lot of failings in common with the US one where it only really works because you assume everybody knows what they are doing and isn't going to break the unwritten rules. As one of the Chinese commentators has said, if this had happened in 2007 it probably wouldn't have mattered as much because the Hugo Awards mattered less, the problem is over the last 15+ years they have become a thing outside of the convention. To echo our host's position the problem is this: Worldcon fandom sees worldcon as a convention that hosts an Award ceremony as part of the process. The rest of the world sees worldcon as a weird, not terribly good or well run convention badly glued onto an Award Ceremony. I am still not sure how we fix that :( Charlie Stross # Charlie Stross replied to this comment from PilotMoonDog | January 26, 2024 19:49 | Reply 31: Worldcons are generally pretty good at risk mitigation, requesting attendees to remain masked in most public spaces (bars/restaurants excluded). Previous worldcons in the COVID19 era have done pretty well, all things considered. However, it's obviously not something one can predict in advance. Also, it's a hybrid convention: some events will be webcast or stream via Zoom. If things break bad there may be a sudden shift to a lot of online programming that folks who feel worried about cramming into small rooms can participate in from a hotel bedroom or from home. (I think you'll be at greater risk transiting airports en route to the venue or eating in restaurants than at the convention itself, but who knows what new strain might emerge over the next 8 months? As it is, I'm prepared to kiss my budget goodbye and stay home if the perceived risk begins to escalate alarmingly.) whitroth # whitroth replied to this comment from Mareino | January 26, 2024 20:02 | Reply 32: sigh I have a t-shirt from the mid-eighties... "A Worldcon in Yugoslavia?" bid for Zagreb. whitroth # whitroth replied to this comment from Daveon | January 26, 2024 20:07 | Reply 33: Well, no. Most Worldcons are run reasonably well (we'll exclude Constellation, Baltimore, 1983, chapter 13 bankruptcy). Over the decades, fandom has built a large base of knowledgeably people, and certainly cons that have been around for a while often have a better idea on how to run them, and the contracts, than some hotel people Daveon # Daveon replied to this comment from whitroth | January 26, 2024 20:39 | Reply 34: Or Japan? Anyhoo, I wasn't using 'well run' like that but more in the meta sense of working as a convention without seeming, well, not to be indelicate, a bit cheap feeling and a bit crap? I've encouraged friends and family who have attended other conventions, not just for profit ones, to come to Worldcons and while they agreed it had a certain charm, they assured me it wasn't terribly well organized - stuff like not sorting out room access and getting taken by surprise by the numbers who turned up. Badly set up rooms that you couldn't get into with no decent mechanism for queuing. Buggy membership systems and registration. Random hotel stuff. The list of things they informed me Worldcon does badly was pretty long even if some of the programming and social stuff was amazing. The State of the Art of convention running outside of Worldcon and more 'trad' cons has, I am told, moved on and it's why younger family will come with me, especially if Uncle Dave is paying, they're not rushing to get invoved. whitroth # whitroth replied to this comment from Daveon | January 26, 2024 21:21 | Reply 35: Perhaps, but we're not a professional con. It's of the fans, by the fans, and for the fans. And the pros are there, and you don't have to pay to talk to them. And they're fans, too. I remember a Chicago con - damn it, I was working the con suite and had to run out so I missed them, but half the cast of B5, when it was on the air and huge, called the con, told them they were in for a commercial con, but realized there was a real con in town the same time, and could they come by for a bit, and they did. As did Sir Pterry at a Capclave about 10 or so years ago. Daveon # Daveon replied to this comment from whitroth | January 26, 2024 21:39 | Reply 36: And that sort of thing is why I love them, but I do have to say, that the reality of the 2020s is that sort of thing just doesn't happen like it used to. I remember bumping into a slightly bemused George RR Martin in Reno and chatting about the first season of GoT - that isn't really going to happen now - as others have opined elseweb the problem is this is all mainstream and the mainstream has expectations that we are going to struggle to fulfill the way we want to. As I said, reading the Chinese commentary, they nailed it with their 2008 comment. Prior to about then nobody would have really cared, but now people really care about the Hugo Awards and they are becoming a thing that exists outside of the Worldcon where the Worldcon, by and large, is peripheral to the Hugo Awards. The fact that after the Maskerade I find the Hugo Award Ceremony one of the duller things to do at a Worldcon puts me firmly in a minority in the wider Science Fiction fan world who feel the same about the con. Elderly Cynic # Elderly Cynic replied to this comment from Daveon | January 26, 2024 22:01 | Reply 37: People might be surprised at how disorganised a 'professional' conference can be! My wife's ones (think: drug company money) were pretty slick, but mine (think: academic IT) varied from the surprisingly slick down to the "never, EVER, again!" Daveon # Daveon replied to this comment from Elderly Cynic | January 26, 2024 22:19 | Reply 38: Well quite, I have been to both professionally, but I think things have generally improved now. I'm thinking more of the reaction of 20somethings in my family and their experience of other fan run events in fields they are more interested in. Worldcon had MUCH better and fascinating programming, but the actual operation they felt was just weird and hard to follow with terrible communication that seemed to rely on you knowing what to do when and where. Which I think is a fair cop. Moz # Moz replied to this comment from Andrew Plotkin | January 26, 2024 23:32 | Reply 39: if Dave McCarty were currently in China or were a Chinese citizen It's possible he has decided that the price for doing that is too high compared to the benefit. Right now most people appear to be convinced that there's something very, very odd going on, so the benefit of him speaking up would be small. But the cost to anyone he likes who is in China could be high. He may just fear that, or he may know that, either way he's likely to be looking at the benefit side very carefully. The "warrant canary" here is the mathematical impossibilities, that should be all that is necessary. This is also the sort of difficulty that could encourage China to further restrict speculative fiction. Both imports from outside, and production of it inside. Just push the line a little further towards "must be clearly imaginary"... It's also worth noting that like other countries China has a record of acting against people outside its border who annoy it. From the "explained death" of Osama Bin Laden to the "unexplained deaths" of various defectors (example) right down the scale to people who get roughed up at entirely lawful protests against foreign governments, usually by people who local police are strangely unable to investigate. Dave might reasonably fear that while he wont fall out a window he or his employer (or family) might be unable to sell to Chinese businesses in future. David L # David L replied to this comment from Moz | January 27, 2024 02:14 | Reply 40: It's also worth noting that like other countries China has a record of acting against people outside its border who annoy it. A minor scandal in the US just now is that the FBI and other law enforcement has stated that China is operating small groups in the US (organized as businesses) in various cities who go after Chinese with relatives back in the home country and making strong suggestions about how they should act while in the US or maybe even return home. With veiled threats about relatives back home. If they are doing this in the US I suspect they are doing it in many other countries. David L # David L replied to this comment from Elderly Cynic | January 27, 2024 02:19 | Reply 41: People might be surprised at how disorganised a 'professional' conference can be! [eyeroll] There were two major tech conferences I attended in the previous decade. One was commercial, the other a side gig done by a major university. 500 people give or take. There were two kinds of attendees. Those who were there for the information sharing and learning and knew it was a hassle to organize such an event. And just dealt with things as they came up. And those who apparently thought they bought a tour/cruise package with some lectures on the side. The later were always unhappy. And thankfully a distinctly small minority. voidampersand # voidampersand replied to this comment from Daveon | January 27, 2024 02:33 | Reply 42: I got the impression there was a weird overlap between the fans organizing the Chengdu Worldcon, local publishers, the local tech startup scene, and the local Party. Look for news releases and promotional material from Chengdu about branding and "cultural innovation". There is lots of it. I think the dynamic is that ordinary Chinese fans don't have a lot of money, but there is lots of money in China, and fans can tap into some of it if they present things right. The Chinese fans are hacking the system and getting the suits to pay for the convention hall. All good fun. But it runs into trouble when the suits, who think it is their marketing event, want more control over the messaging. This is not at all like the model we are used to with American and British and European conventions. Even when most fans were young and pretty much penniless, if everyone bought a membership that was enough money to rent a hall. I was mystified when Chengdu won the bid and announced that everyone who voted got a full attending membership. The voting fees and upgrades to attending are usually the single largest source of funds for a Worldcon. How was Chengdu going to run their Worldcon without money? It turned out it was sponsorships and deals. They expected to get a convention center for free. Then their deal fell through, and they had to delay the convention until there was another facility available that they could use for free. The Chengdu Worldcon is weird enough that it could be an unpublished Charlie Stross and Cory Doctorow collaboration about fans hacking the system with consequences that maybe should have been better expected. Doctor Science # Doctor Science | January 27, 2024 02:46 | Reply 43: The release of the nomination stats revealed two horrible problems with the 2023 Hugos: Arbitrary and unexplained disqualification of certain people/works Numbers that are clearly manipulated if not plain made up I was thinking that these were two distinct issues, until someone pointed out to me that some of the disqualifications could be a desperate effort to cover up messes with the collection & handling of the nominations. Like, that some of the data was lost partway through, and someone desperately tried to duplicate it. In any event, it looks as though both Chinese internal politics and massive incompetence was involved. I attribute none of Dave McCarty's behavior to good motives. He's acted like an asshole to anyone having the effrontery to ask for actual explanations, and I've seen scuttlebutt to the effect that this is not a new look for him. My guess is that his Chinese contacts gave him no more explanation than he's given us, and he's too arrogant and fundamentally uncaring to press for details. One point that has just started to be rumbled about but is sure to gather steam: Ben Yalow needs to step down from all official association with the Hugo Awards and WSFS, and that break has to be permanent, no backsies. Yalow and McCarty were the leads coordinating with Chengdu to help them run the Hugo Awards, and the result was the greatest catastrophe in WSFS history. Removing them from any involvement going forward is a critical first step in recovering institutional trust. And whaddaya know, as I was writing this I checked, and Ben Yalow's name has disappeared from Glasgow's site, though it was there on Jan. 20th. Robert Prior # Robert Prior replied to this comment from voidampersand | January 27, 2024 04:54 | Reply 44: But it runs into trouble when the suits, who think it is their marketing event, want more control over the messaging. That kind of thing happens over here, at least in the field of education. Greg Tingey # Greg Tingey | January 27, 2024 09:49 | Reply 45: David L @ 40 It's known that the PRC are doing that here, too. IIRC our own security services & police are "unimpressed" shall we say? Elderly Cynic # Elderly Cynic replied to this comment from David L | January 27, 2024 10:27 | Reply 46: There were very few of the latter at any of the conferences I went to. Some, yes. But that wasn't my point. Many of those (including standards organisations and an IBM user group) were pretty competent, but sometimes a bit rudimentary. The most common shambles in the 1970s and 1980s was IT support, including my failed attempt to demonstrate remote working (over acoustic coupler) in 1979(*). But it wasn't the only area that could be shambolic. Few had more than a thousand attendees. The worst when I was asked to speak at a one-day conference at another nameless UK university. I had to ring up 72 hours ahead to say "I haven't had a confirmation; am I still expected, and exactly when and where do I need to be?" And, then, when I turned up, there were two speakers and three attendees, but locked doors and no organisers. One was eventually found, but we had to set up the room, and started an hour late. Yes, there was a valid excuse for the main organiser's absence, but no valid one for relying solely on that person. (*) That wasn't my choice; the director volunteered me. Murphy's Lawyer # Murphy's Lawyer replied to this comment from Elderly Cynic | January 27, 2024 10:44 | Reply 47: People might be surprised at how disorganised a 'professional' conference can be! And some might not. I still have unpleasant dreams about a Board conference in the late 90s my team had to set up comms for, at which the CEO threatened to downgrade our annual reports because we couldn't provide the internet he wanted. Pointing out that his insisting the conference be hosted at a stately home in the middle of nowhere (which just happened to host his favourite 18-hole golf course AND WE NEVER MENTION THAT HARRY OKAY?) did not go down well. Charlie Stross # Charlie Stross replied to this comment from David L | January 27, 2024 11:06 | Reply 48: They're definitely doing that in the UK as well. The Raven # The Raven | January 27, 2024 15:14 | Reply 49: Part of the problem is that, if the lawyers currently attacking Worldcon are correct, there is no way to run Worldcon with the sort of informal controls that have been used in the past without huge exposure to liability. The business meeting crowd has resisted incorporation for decades, So who knows? Worldcon in some form has been around for 80 years and the Hugos for about 70. It would be a shame to lose them but that seems possible; the sharks are circling. Assuming Worldcon survives this, the centralized organization that may be required will become a target for just all kinds of greedy, power-hungry asses. The current structure limits the damage any convention that goes off the rails can do to one year. That's not going to be the case with a centralized organization. Greg Tingey # Greg Tingey | January 27, 2024 19:31 | Reply 50: The Raven The current structure limits the damage any convention that goes off the rails can do to one year. That's not going to be the case with a centralized organization. Oh dear ... Like this do you mean? An apparent - & I stress "apparent" attack on a previously respected-&-trusted organisation, that somebody thought might be a good idea to subvert ... to everyone's loss & zero gain, maybe? Bogdanow # Bogdanow | January 27, 2024 20:17 | Reply 51: @Pyrkon, At least in some years (for example:2014, I mention this specific year simply because I have data handy), Pyrkon was partly financed with money from BOTH city (Poznan) budget and the Poland government (Ministry of Culture). Colin # Colin replied to this comment from Greg Tingey | January 27, 2024 22:44 | Reply 52: That one's no mystery. That's the Israeli government up to its normal propaganda tricks. Colin # Colin | January 27, 2024 22:49 | Reply 53: (Some UNRWA staff in Gaza are alleged to have helped militants, but even if they did it is not proportionate or reasonable for the US, UK and other Israeli allies to cut off funding to the UNRWA) Leave a comment Here's the moderation policy. If this is your first time, please read it before you post. If you need to sign in and want to create a local account on this blog, select "Movable Type" from the "Sign in ..." menu. You will need a working email address. Name [ ] Email Address [ ] URL [ ] [ ] Remember personal info? [ ] Comments (This form requires JavaScript. You may use Markdown, HTML entities, and a limited subset of HTML formatting tags in comments.) 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