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Log in or sign up in seconds.| * English [ ][] [ ]limit my search to r/gamedev use the following search parameters to narrow your results: subreddit:subreddit find submissions in "subreddit" author:username find submissions by "username" site:example.com find submissions from "example.com" url:text search for "text" in url selftext:text search for "text" in self post contents self:yes (or self:no) include (or exclude) self posts nsfw:yes (or nsfw:no) include (or exclude) results marked as NSFW e.g. subreddit:aww site:imgur.com dog see the search faq for details. advanced search: by author, subreddit... this post was submitted on 24 Oct 2021 9,643 points (98% upvoted) shortlink: [https://redd.it/qeqn] [ ][ ] [ ]remember mereset password login Submit Link Submit Text Get an ad-free experience with special benefits, and directly support Reddit. get reddit premium gamedev joinleave1,274,430 readers 1,604 users here now Join Our Discord --------------------------------------------------------------------- Filter Posts * Unfilter * Resource * Events * Games * Only Questions * No Questions --------------------------------------------------------------------- FAQs & Wiki * Getting Started * Engine FAQ * Wiki * General FAQ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Socialize * /r/gamedev Discord server * /r/gamedev IRC channel * live development streams --------------------------------------------------------------------- Weekly threads [FF] Feedback Friday [SS] Screenshot Saturday [STS] Soundtrack Sunday [MM] Marketing Monday [WIPW] WIP Wednesday [DD] Daily Discussion [QS] Quarterly Showcase --------------------------------------------------------------------- Related communities 1 2 /r/LearnProgramming /r/GameDevClassifieds /r/PlayMyGame /r/IndieGames /r/GameDesign /r/DevBlogs /r/GameJams /r/LevelDesign /r/GameAssets /r/GameAudio /r/OpenGL /r/Unity3D /r/UnrealEngine /r/TrueGameDev /r/gamedevscreens /r/TheMakingOfGames TigSource IndieDB CompoHub Game Conferences /r/gamepr GameDev.net /r/playertodev r/JustGameDevThings /r/GameProduction/ a community for 15 years MODERATORS * message the mods discussions in r/gamedev <> X 51 * 17 comments Do you ever go back to your old projects and realise they're actually pretty good? 22 * 10 comments Anyone feels making tutorial for your game is harder than making the gameplay itself? 244 * 82 comments Rejected by Nintendo for the 3rd time even with my game released on the PC and PS5. Still not giving up! 92 * 130 comments is it worth to buy gamemaker? 18 * 30 comments Most visits on my steam page comes from direct navigation, what does it mean ? 4 * 1 comment Building a physics based game 55 * 34 comments Very difficult to "find the fun" 8 * 7 comments Going the extra mile as a programmer - asking for resource recommendations Has someone tries to make a large scale retro rpg that's user content driven ? 1 * 14 comments Is the gamedev.tv black friday bundle worth it Welcome to Reddit, the front page of the internet. Become a Redditor and join one of thousands of communities. x 9642 9643 9644 ArticleDespite having just 5.8% sales, over 38% of bug reports come from the Linux community (self.gamedev) submitted 2 years ago by koderski@KoderaSoftware 38% of my bug reports come from the Linux community My game - DV: Rings of Saturn (shameless plug) - is out in Early Access for two years now, and as you can expect, there are bugs. But I did find that a disproportionally big amount of these bugs was reported by players using Linux to play. I started to investigate, and my findings did surprise me. Let's talk numbers. Percentages are easy to talk about, but when I read just them, I always wonder - what is the sample size? Is it small enough for the percentage to be just noise? As of today, I sold a little over 12,000 units of DV in total. 700 of these units were bought by Linux players. That's 5.8%. I got 1040 bug reports in total, out of which roughly 400 are made by Linux players. That's one report per 11.5 users on average, and one report per 1.75 Linux players. That's right, an average Linux player will get you 650% more bug reports. A lot of extra work for just 5.8% of extra units, right? Wrong. Bugs exist whenever you know about them, or not. Do you know how many of these 400 bug reports were actually platform-specific? 3. Literally only 3 things were problems that came out just on Linux. The rest of them were affecting everyone - the thing is, the Linux community is exceptionally well trained in reporting bugs. That is just the open-source way. This 5.8% of players found 38% of all the bugs that affected everyone. Just like having your own 700-person strong QA team. That was not 38% extra work for me, that was just free QA! But that's not all. The report quality is stellar. I mean we have all seen bug reports like: "it crashes for me after a few hours". Do you know what a developer can do with such a report? Feel sorry at best. You can't really fix any bug unless you can replicate it, see it with your own eyes, peek inside and finally see that it's fixed. And with bug reports from Linux players is just something else. You get all the software/os versions, all the logs, you get core dumps and you get replication steps. Sometimes I got with the player over discord and we quickly iterated a few versions with progressive fixes to isolate the problem. You just don't get that kind of engagement from anyone else. Worth it? Oh, yes - at least for me. Not for the extra sales - although it's nice. It's worth it to get the massive feedback boost and free, hundred-people strong QA team on your side. An invaluable asset for an independent game studio. * 545 comments * share * save * hide * report top 200 commentsshow 500 sorted by: best topnewcontroversialoldrandomq&alive (beta) [ ] Want to add to the discussion? Post a comment! Create an account [-]Tachnoblade 274 points275 points276 points 2 years ago (7 children) Advertise a game on r/gaming and you're left in controversial. Add linux support and advertise a game on r/linux_gaming suddenly you get a lot of support and interest in your game. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]Timestatic 150 points151 points152 points 2 years ago (0 children) Linux people are just happy that devs actually make a good native build for their game! * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]EnkiiMuto 47 points48 points49 points 2 years ago (4 children) Advertising most things on reddit is a nightmare, but some subs that welcome it are a treasure for small devs/artists * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (4 replies) [-]Pretend_Bowler1344 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (0 children) I have been daily driving linux for 3-4 years now and I can tell you, merely the act of keeping us in consideration would earn you appreciation from the community. We love devs who think about us! * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]TotalSpaceNut 907 points908 points909 points 2 years ago* (66 children) Another plus is that the Linux reddit community is happy for you to post your game there. Edit: To expand on that, theres r/linux and r/linux_gaming both gave me a 600+ upvotes and the conversion was a lot higher than from your normal gaming subs. At the time i had it on itch, where people can pay you more for the game, they were incredibly generous with $10-20 tips being common. To boot they were a super nice community and non toxic :) Would do Linux again 10/10 * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]JND__ 175 points176 points177 points 2 years ago (34 children) Hey, Linux user here. I'd like to thank you on behalf of the community for sharing your game with us. Even tho Proton made gaming 100 levels better, native title always wins. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-][deleted] 30 points31 points32 points 2 years ago (32 children) except on older games like hollow knight if you're using wayland which is a bug i reported * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]JND__ 30 points31 points32 points 2 years ago (27 children) Yeah I kinda forgot that Wayland exist here :D My bad, but still... if a game comes native on Linux, I am always happy, mostly because I can bother the devs if bug occurs. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-][deleted] 19 points20 points21 points 2 years ago (26 children) Yep, absolutely. Wayland is still fairly new, but I'm hoping that Valve will make the "political" move to choose Wayland for their OS for performance reasons. That should get more developers on board and supporting it to help hasten the transition. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]frozenpicklesyt 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (9 children) I think that's wishful thinking, though it would certainly expedite Wayland's development and adoption. Should be worth a good discussion either way. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (2 children) The only games that are broken at the moment are the ones that try to use Wayland (because they were made before Wayland was a thing, so there was no reason to specify Xorg only), and those are native games. The solution to that problem is just make some env vars at launch to specify Xorg and then it'll use XWayland automatically. Hollow knight is the only example of this that I have found so far. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]frozenpicklesyt 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (1 child) I'm just a tad worried about potential jank that comes with using multiple compatibility layers automatically, without any user configuration. A lot of the Deck users won't appreciate any instability that comes with that setup. Gotta put some trust in Valve I guess * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (16 replies) load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [-]Pandastic4 24 points25 points26 points 2 years ago (4 children) What's your game? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]itsTyrion 12 points13 points14 points 2 years ago (1 child) Please tell me the answer isn't in the deleted reply.. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]BreakPointSSC 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) It's probably DV: Rings of Saturn since it's the only game on Steam by Kodera Software. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (2 replies) [-]_Oce_ 27 points28 points29 points 2 years ago (24 children) I feel like the little effort required to install a different OS than the preinstalled one weeds out a lot of people. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]itsTyrion 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (20 children) I mean, it doesn't require that much effort anymore. However, enough people are not fed up(enough) and/or just accept changes as the way things are. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]CVR12 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago (7 children) I've tried multiple times to use Linux on my gaming machine, and each time have switched back to Windows in less than a week. The problem is that, even though there are several compatibility layers available, when I finish working for the day/week I just want to play my game - not troubleshoot why update X to Y thing prevents me from hearing my game's audio, etc. Linux gaming just isn't there for the average person. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]Ryder17z 11 points12 points13 points 2 years ago (1 child) It really depends on what games your playing though. Some are really easy to get running on linux, some are next to impossible. And everything inbetween * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (12 replies) load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [-]triffid_hunter 933 points934 points935 points 2 years ago* (90 children) Literally only 3 things were problems that came out just on Linux the thing is, the Linux community is exceptionally well trained in reporting bugs And with bug reports from Linux players is just something else. You get all the software/os versions, all the logs, you get core dumps and you get replication steps. Sometimes I got with the player over discord and we quickly iterated a few versions with progressive fixes to isolate the problem. You just don't get that kind of engagement from anyone else. This is the information that I firmly believe is missing from numerous other "Linux users have a disproportionately high number of bug reports" posts. As you note, Linux users are trained to 1) actually submit bug reports rather than just complain to their friends on social media, and 2) are trained to make high quality reports that effectively assist the developer in resolving the issue. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 387 points388 points389 points 2 years ago (36 children) That was a revelation. You don't get more bugs to fix, you are just more aware of the bugs you already have. True, some of them are easier to trigger on Linux - specifically some race conditions - but they affect everyone, you just get vague "oh it crashes sometimes" reports that are not really helpful in fixing stuff. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]triffid_hunter 132 points133 points134 points 2 years ago (34 children) some of them are easier to trigger on Linux - specifically some race conditions This sounds worthy of a blog post that I'd love to read - is it because Linux is unusually fast at some things compared to other OSes or just because it does things differently? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 148 points149 points150 points 2 years ago (28 children) The timings are just different, so I suspect some race conditions are easier to catch on Windows and other on Linux - but these on Windows, I catch myself :) * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]pipnina 70 points71 points72 points 2 years ago (16 children) Are race conditions related to threading? Because Windows' thread creation and merging is SUPER slow compared to Linux'. Same for anything IO based IIRC? One of the reasons why loading a super-heavy modded Stellaris to the main menu might take 1m30s on my Linux + SATA-SSD system but take 8 minutes on my friend's Win10+SATA-SSD system, and over 20 minutes on another friend's Win10+7200RPM HDD system. It's an extreme case, but in a situation where fast creation and merging of threads, or heavy IO is being done, it will create notable differences. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 59 points60 points61 points 2 years ago (1 child) 99% threads - due to overall small size of my assets, I just load all 0.5GB into RAM at boot. Some things just run in different order on Linux most of the time. Things like initializing starships. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]Impressive_Change593 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) Things like initializing starships I guess thats because of your game but it sounds like a spacex reference lol * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]Plankton_Plus 15 points16 points17 points 2 years ago (0 children) Are race conditions related to threading? Yes, but also no. Race conditions are some of the hardest bugs to find because they depend on such subtle timings (across at least two threads, yes). For example, moving your mouse and causing an interrupt at the exact right nanosecond could trigger the bug. Linux does things slightly differently, so the two threads may line up differently and more reliably trigger the race condition. This doesn't mean that Linux is faster, slower, better, or worse. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]CatProgrammer 15 points16 points17 points 2 years ago (12 children) I thought Windows thread creation was relatively fast, it's process creation that's much slower. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 29 points30 points31 points 2 years ago (8 children) It doesn't really matter which one is faster - what matters it that they tend to run in different order. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]CatProgrammer 14 points15 points16 points 2 years ago (7 children) Which is an indication that they use different scheduling algorithms, or possibly that some higher-level synchronization constructs (semaphores/etc.) are implemented differently. Makes me wonder how useful testing on different processors and architectures would be for games, as then you have hardware-level differences that can affect scheduling and ordering of concurrent operations and might reveal more race conditions. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]hegbork 10 points11 points12 points 2 years ago (0 children) I once worked on a project where we specifically made sure to run all tests on sparc64 because it had a nasty memory model (if you don't lock correctly, your other CPU may not see the memory you changed), big endian, 64 bit when most of the world at that time was still 32, and was very brutal about alignment issues. It was invaluable to catch those kinds of inattentiveness bugs early in development. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 2 years ago (0 children) I notice a difference depending whether my laptop is running on battery power or not, some race conditions rarely happen when it's on AC, but happen much more frequently when it's on battery and throttled down. Same with CI services like Travis and whatnot which tend to be fairly slow and are much more likely to show race conditions. I don't really know much about Windows or how it implements threading, but it doesn't necessarily need to be some deep difference; just a few fractions of a second more or less here and there can make a massive impact in how often a race condition actually happens. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]Techfreak102 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (2 children) Makes me wonder how useful testing on different processors and architectures would be for games, as then you have hardware-level differences that can affect scheduling and ordering of concurrent operations and might reveal more race conditions. It's super important in software development as a whole. I'm a software dev on statistical software for a massive company, and we do a significant amount of architecture-focused testing in order to make sure we don't have race conditions in certain configurations. We even have some resources dedicated specifically to mimic some of our high priority clients' architectures, to make sure things work correctly with their specific setup. In terms of the gaming industry, this is exactly why consoles don't have modifiable parts. If you have a static architecture, with known algorithms underpinning all of your important processes, you can streamline development a significant bit, as well as utilize architecture-specific optimizations that you maybe couldn't implement in an architecture-agnostic piece of code. This sort of stuff is part of the reason that console exclusives very rarely make their way to different platforms, because the game was almost certainly developed with the original console's architecture in mind. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (2 replies) [-]Plankton_Plus 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (2 children) Thread creation is relatively slow on any platform, Windows may be the worst culprit, but you rarely care about that stuff. You typically have a pool of threads sitting around doing nothing that you can pull from, or a set number of threads each with a specific purpose. With game development you typically want to avoid "creating" things as much as possible: allocating memory, creating threads, creating file handles (opening files), etc. Re-use is king in game development, and also some other development disciplines. The absolute fastest thing you can do is nothing at all. My point is: there may well be a difference, but you shouldn't really care. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (2 replies) [-]triffid_hunter 26 points27 points28 points 2 years ago (2 children) Still, as a Linux power user with a generalised interest in software and a career in electronics+embedded, I want details! * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 50 points51 points52 points 2 years ago (1 child) There are not so much low-level details, really. I got a bunch of reports ("game is crashing when I have geologists, here are logs/ versions/cores"), I send out huge binaries with debug symbols with them, got a core back that pointed exactly to the problem. Fixed that and added a debug log there to just make sure it worked well, and after reviewing unrelated reports from windows I found that it would hit these players too, they just didn't report that. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) [-]Eadword 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (7 children) Welp, time to switch to Rust. :) * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]SolarLiner 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (1 child) RIIR is strong with this one * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [-]FlukyS 49 points50 points51 points 2 years ago (9 children) This is the information that I firmly believe is missing from numerous other "Linux users have a disproportionately high number of bug reports" posts. Well the biggest myth one was Planetary Annihilation and one of their devs on Twitter. I've been trying to fire fight against that one for such a long time. A former dev at Uber Ent said pretty flat without any real provocation "Linux was 0.1% users but 20% bug reports". It was widely shared, a top post on /r/gaming and /r/games multiple gaming news sites and gaming news shows on youtube picked up on it and signal boosted it. They didn't read the followup posts in which the dev admitted he didn't know what the issues were, didn't work on the port himself and then eventually he apologized admitting that he now knows a lot more about porting to Linux from the replies and admitted he was wrong. PA for those who didn't know had Linux as a stretch goal for Kickstarter and actually had a higher amount of users than 0.1% because people like me were buying the game because they said they would support Linux. Those users wouldn't be counted as purchases on Linux under the Steam stats. They went with Coherent gameface as the UI for the game which didn't work on Radeon or Intel graphics but didn't try and fix it or even refund users. They had an alpha and beta which were open to kickstarter backers and the game was obviously not tested on Linux at all. If you release any software you would at least play it once on the system you are targeting but even having 1 machine with Ubuntu on it was too much for Uber Ent even though they were literally kickstarted with that in mind. Like the OP the Linux people actually wanted to get the game running on Linux so there were bug reports. But the myth though was signal boosted way more than the truth which was those bug reports were self-inflicted. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]qwertyuiop924 34 points35 points36 points 2 years ago (6 children) Ah yes. A variant on the classic "Linux users suck and are angry at us, Linux isn't worth supporting!" I mean, maybe Linux actually isn't worth supporting for you. I get it. I'm a Linux user but I can't expect to be everyone's priority. But have you considered why your Linux users are so bitter and abrasive? Because if all your Linux users are angry with you, maybe they have a reason. Like, for example, that you charged them the same price you'd charge a windows user for a buggy port that performs poorly and treat them like second-class citizens. Or maybe you released a mediocre-ish port, said your next game would get ported to Linux, never ported it, and couldn't even be bothered to confirm that the port wasn't coming. I mean, hypothetically. It's not like any game studio would do something like that... * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]Jeoshua 9 points10 points11 points 2 years ago (0 children) It's that very kind of behavior that I believe led Valve to push Proton over Native. That way there are less issues with games simply being coded poorly for Linux and, instead, they're just coded the way they're coded before and they run on Linux. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]maugrerain 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (0 children) Oh, I felt that with Ark: SE. I bought the game during early access to play with friends, only on one Friday evening (peak playing time) we were preparing to raid a base when the devs pushed an update. All the Windows users were able to rejoin the server just fine while I, being on Linux, kept experiencing a crash. Then there is/was a Linux specific bug that existed for years with water where copying a file from another map fixes it, yet the developers don't seem interested. Then other games simply drop Linux after supporting it for a while. It's easy to see why Linux players lose trust in certain game developers. Yet, as shown here, Linux users are often willing to pay more for a game that supports Linux and will take the time working with developers to try to make it work. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (2 replies) [-]suur-siil 120 points121 points122 points 2 years ago (11 children) Linux users also enjoy it when a proprietary software dev replies positively to them and invites them to help with diagnosing the bug or testing the fix (instead of just "we don't provide support for Linux users, fuck off"). We acknowledge that all complex software has bugs, and just want our software to get fixed, rather than "I paid EUR5 for this, it should be perfect, sucks". * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]Go_Padres 31 points32 points33 points 2 years ago (0 children) Very true, and we're typically happy to work on a problem/bug because we usually enjoy tinkering with our machines and with it's software anyway. That's the whole fun of computing! * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]Marenthyu 10 points11 points12 points 2 years ago (0 children) "I paid EUR5 for this, it should be perfect, sucks" Reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBm_jfCsdqw * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (9 replies) [-]glemnar 39 points40 points41 points 2 years ago (6 children) Hah, willing to bet a significant fraction of Linux devs are software devs themselves, versus just being generally trained to interact this way * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]Scipio11 20 points21 points22 points 2 years ago (5 children) Not even just that, but if you ask for help on ANY Linux forum you'll be told to go fuck yourself if you're not coming with OS/software version at minimum and the first question always asked of you is log dumps. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]GuyWithLag 13 points14 points15 points 2 years ago (4 children) Yes, because the default behavior of untrained humans is little better than the verbalized equivalent of a toddler crying. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]ws-ilazki 20 points21 points22 points 2 years ago (2 children) Yes, because the default behavior of untrained humans is little better than the verbalized equivalent of a toddler crying. Sometimes worse, because it feels like this supposedly intelligent human being is actively sabotaging any attempts to provide assistance. It always seems to go something like this: User: My program doesn't work, please help. Tech: What program? User: Adobe Tech: Adobe what? User: I don't know. It says Adobe. Tech: Adobe is a company that makes dozens of products, we still need to know what software you're using. Does it say anything else? User: Photo something. Tech: Photoshop? User: Maybe, I dunno. Tech: Okay, what version? User: I don't know. Tech: Did you follow my instructions to see the version? User: Yes. (editor's note: "yes" really means "no") Tech: So what did it say? User: I don't know Tech: Okay, fine, we'll skip that for now, maybe I can still help you. What's the problem you're having? User: A message pops up and it closes. Tech: What does the message say? User: I don't know. Tech: Can you make it happen again and tell me what the message says? User: Okay. Tech: Well, what did it say? User: I don't know, some technical mumbo jumbo. Tech: Can you please be more specific? User: It said something about an error. Tech: That's really vague. Can you read me the exact message please. User: No, I closed it. ...and so on. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]GuyWithLag 13 points14 points15 points 2 years ago (0 children) No, this is _exactly_ how a toddler behaves. Something is not to their liking, they may not know what, but they know they don't like it, so they cry for Someone Else to fix it. Same thing with the excerpt above (I've lived through it more times than alcohol can wipe from memory): [DEL:Toddler:DEL]User finds something isn't to his liking (whatever that means), he complains for Someone Else to fix it. He/she/ve/it complains to you, and that's it, they are absolved. Any question that you pose upon them makes them feel as if it's Their Problem again, and not Someone Else's, and because they're pain-aversive they want to make it Someone Else's as fast as possible, but as they're in pain-aversion mode they really really don't want to think too much, else it might become Their Problem again. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) [-]SaysStupidShit10x 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (1 child) A lot more root cause analysis rather than hey this random thing happened to me when I pressed this totally unrelated button * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (22 replies) [-]Livid_Charity7077 71 points72 points73 points 2 years ago (13 children) Thanks for this post. I've sent some very detailed bug reports for games that were ported to linux, sometimes with patches or proposed fixes in third party libraries attached, and I hope they're similarly appreciated. For example, I remember once I was trying to track down an issue with how a game opened a config file (documentation wasn't clear) so I quickly strace'd all file syscalls to see where the game looked for its config. While I was doing so I noticed a bunch of failed attempts to open a library with a space in the name, like "libsomeextension-1.2 .so" -- note the space in the middle of the filename. The framework was also searching for the library with a ".dll" extension, so I'm sure the bug existed on Windows as well. I sent over a very specific bug report saying hey bud, check where you define the constant string for libsomeextension because it looks like you have accidental whitespace in a constant where you define this library name. The library was totally unimportant, I think a plugin to manipulate lights on a particular brand of keyboard. I'm sure they just shipped without figuring out why that particular feature wasn't working. There are bug reports like "it doesn't work," and there are bug reports like "here is the specific issue and proposed fix, sorry it's not OSS or I'd send a patch." * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]harrybrown98 30 points31 points32 points 2 years ago (12 children) Hear that game developers... lots of Linux users have the skills necessary to fix bugs for you. Most Industries have figured this out, games and firmware are the only ones left. Show us the code. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]FeelingsUnrealized 20 points21 points22 points 2 years ago (10 children) I don't get why people are so protective of source code. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]Kikiyoshima 20 points21 points22 points 2 years ago (1 child) I get why game devs are, since they make money by selling copies of the software. Firmware guys however? Just why...? Do you fear someone finds out the voltage you use in your 113th pin? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago (0 children) You don't understand... it took me 13 years to tune my network card firmware to 13 gigafarts/clock cycle * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]MPeti1 12 points13 points14 points 2 years ago (5 children) With games with a price tag it can be kind of understood, though. I mean, if they would give out the code people wouldn't need for pay for the game. On the other hand, sometimes I wonder that it would be really cool if game developers would release the source code a few years after release * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-][deleted] 13 points14 points15 points 2 years ago (1 child) That's not true though, unless your game is all code and no assets. There is no reason why you can't ship the game engine under some free software license, while keeping the assets entirely non-free. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) [-]LinuxStalk3r 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (2 children) Oh yeah, I wanna get COD for free, let me download 400GB of dependencies and wait a couple days for it to build... Just joking, but yeah, most games today are so huge that building from source isnt worth it for most people IMO. Even most linux users would rather have a binary most of the time * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (2 replies) [-]semitones 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago (0 children) I think they don't want other game dev companies to benefit from their work and leapfrog them. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]yumko 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (0 children) Probably because they used other people source code and didn't give anything back, so they think other people will use their code without giving anything back. Reference: Microsoft, Sony, lots of other companies. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) [-]FlatAds 50 points51 points52 points 2 years ago (0 children) Firefox has experienced a very similar phenomenon, bugs reported by Linux users helped the stability of other platforms. The importance of this cannot be overestimated: Linux users tend to be more tech-savvy and are more likely to help us solve issues, so all those reports were a treasure trove for improving stability even for other operating systems (Windows, Mac, Android, etc). In particular, we often identified Fission bugs on Linux first. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]Heremeus 126 points127 points128 points 2 years ago (2 children) Thanks a lot for this insight! That's very interesting and a side of linux support you usually wouldn't think off. As you said, sales do not justify the time invested in linux builds. But quality feedback and bug reports most certainly do! * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]FlukeRoads 26 points27 points28 points 2 years ago (0 children) Then just imagine the shoot up in sales as your now improved product gets a solid quality reputation on windows since you are shipping fewer bugs. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) [-]Jukibom 184 points185 points186 points 2 years ago (25 children) Linux support is almost always worth it - even better if you can stomach your game being open source and linux people can submit bug fixes. I get an inordinate amount of bug reports or feedback from linux players and I'd say > 90% of them affect windows users too. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 75 points76 points77 points 2 years ago (8 children) Ha! O only wish I could. But some of the stuff I work on requires signed NDAs :( * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]Jukibom 51 points52 points53 points 2 years ago (6 children) Yeah, it's a real struggle to maintain especially with any third party unity assets. Handling open source and licensed assets / libraries isn't really something that I've seen talked about much... I ended up adding a NO_PAID_ASSETS symbol to bypass code reliant on them and get at least a basic game running but I'm not sure how long I can keep that up without turning it into a spaghetti nightmare. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-][deleted] 13 points14 points15 points 2 years ago (5 children) " NO_PAID_ASSETS symbol to bypass code reliant on them and get at least a basic game runnin" Wym by this? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]PatientSeb 61 points62 points63 points 2 years ago (4 children) I think theyre saying that they have a flag in their game, that when set to true - replaces the paid assets with either free ones, default engine equivalents (a cube instead of a character model, etc.), or just removes those assets/scripts from the game entirely Now they can push their code without the paid assets and make their game open source. This allows anyone who wants to pull the source code to build and run it, mess with the core mechanics, investigate bugs, and so on. It a decent solution for open sourcing your own game without exposing paid assets - but they've also pointed out that having this weird extra conditional layer for many critical assets (and their associated scripts) has led to less maintainability/modularity/ internal cohesion in their code. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]Jukibom 12 points13 points14 points 2 years ago (0 children) Couldn't have said it better myself :D * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [-]disintegore 44 points45 points46 points 2 years ago (1 child) There is more to open sourcing video games than just the free QA labour you might get out of it. You are giving your users a permanent solution to the archival/longevity problem that plagues video games, as well as giving free reign to your modding community without having to invest any time into creating modding tools and SDKs and whatnot. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]qwertyuiop924 27 points28 points29 points 2 years ago (0 children) 100% this. People worry that making your game open-source will cut into sales, but open-source code and free assets aren't the same thing: Doom and Quake are still worth buying today, in large part because they are open-source. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]recaffeinated 17 points18 points19 points 2 years ago (13 children) Man, I'd happily submit code fixes on open source games. Paid for open source is the dream tbh. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-][deleted] 20 points21 points22 points 2 years ago* (2 children) The clinking of teacups echoed through the cozy cafe as friends gathered for an afternoon of laughter and warmth. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (2 replies) [-]Jukibom 24 points25 points26 points 2 years ago (9 children) It's a pain in the ass and honestly a little bit stressful having your awful code out there for all to see but I think the benefits outweigh the downsides and I wish more games did it. I'd love to submit small bug fixes in some smaller indie games. I imagine it gets harder to manage with scale, though * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]nilamo 21 points22 points23 points 2 years ago (3 children) The funny thing, is it doesn't really matter what the code quality is. Celeste is open source (or at least an older version of it is), and the code is almost horrifying. But it works. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]aperson 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (0 children) Do you mean the original Pico 8 version? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (2 replies) [-]kevingranade 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (2 children) It DOES. Pros: game I never could have written on my own. Cons: 157 open pull requests, 1918 open issues. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (2 replies) [-]RiftHunter4 89 points90 points91 points 2 years ago (21 children) There's a few reasons for this and the statistics answer some of it. https://ubuntu.com/desktop/statistics https://findly.in/how-many-linux-users-are-there/ Between those two sources, you can figure out that a typical Linux user speaks English, knows a good bit about computers, and probably works in the computer industry. So odds are they have already written a bug report before, potentially for work even. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]qwertyuiop924 32 points33 points34 points 2 years ago (5 children) It's also emphatically a cultural thing. Even if they don't work in computing, Linux users are generally taught that debugging is a communal process. If you come to the community with a problem, you'll be asked to help the community help you solve your problem by providing information and your own analysis if you've got the experience to do that. So the act of even getting help on a Linux system, or looking at help threads from other people who have had your same problem, teaches you how to write a good bug report. At least, that's how I learned. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (5 replies) [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 51 points52 points53 points 2 years ago (12 children) Agreed. I found, however, that when people usually note that they get a lot of bug reports from Linux players that sounds like a bad thing - and it is not! * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]Brownie_of_Blednoch 27 points28 points29 points 2 years ago (1 child) It's bad if for a lazy/bad Dev I guess * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-][deleted] 17 points18 points19 points 2 years ago (0 children) Even for lazy devs. People forget the mental effort to communicate to users and walk them through their problem until somebody figures out something is either worker or broken. Linux community wants vendors to be successful on their platform. The community have very specific rules because everything is better in practice. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [+][deleted] 2 years ago (9 children) [deleted] [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (6 children) Distribution - as in specific Linux distro? I'd have to check from the reports made, I don't note it specifically in issues recorded, because it's just not relevant. I got only one distro-specific bug report, and that was a misconfiguration of the window manager - and it was solved by other players on game discord before I even seen it :) * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [+][deleted] 2 years ago (5 children) [deleted] load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (2 replies) [-]addicted44 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (0 children) And probably equally importantly they've RECEIVED bug reports and can empathize with the developer they're writing the bug report for. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) [-]deadmansArmourNetherguild dev @DavidCodeAndArt 52 points53 points 54 points 2 years ago (8 children) I was planning to release my game on Early Access as well for both Windows and Linux. Now I'm even happier with that decision :D Also, besides being good with QA, the Linux community is really supportive towards devs who release games with Linux builds. Even if it ends up being just 6% of the sale, having this base of support can be useful (not to mention it feels good to know that less people are excluded from playing your game, and its incredibly easy to release on Linux nowadays with engines like Unity supporting Linux builds). * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 27 points28 points29 points 2 years ago (2 children) Oh yes, the community itself is awesome. When they see you care - they also care. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (2 replies) [+][deleted] 2 years ago* (3 children) [deleted] [-]deadmansArmourNetherguild dev @DavidCodeAndArt 10 points11 points 12 points 2 years ago (2 children) My game, a strategy roguelite named "Netherguild": Itch.io link, Steam link. I haven't posted it in r/linux_gaming yet since I wanted to improve my Steam page first, but I am kind of dying to post there and share more about the game in general! Currently however I'm focusing on 1. trying to finish the opening cutscene as well as 2. finding an artist to redo the title design of the game, to fit with the new (unpublished) cover art I got :D * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]YippyKayYayMF 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (1 child) Thanks for the link, wishlisted * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) [-]spam-hater 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (0 children) Also consider that if you release an entertaining game, Linux users don't equate 1:1 with direct sales, because each Linux user who loves your game will almost certainly convince many of their friends to also buy it (regardless of which OS their friends may themselves use), especially if it's multiplayer and supports cross-play between platforms. As with any business venture, word of mouth is the very best form of advertising you could hope for. It's free, and people tend to take it seriously when someone they know and trust says good things about something. ;) * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]iwakan 87 points88 points89 points 2 years ago (9 children) This is a good message but I fear that many people are only going to read the title. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]akien-mga@Akien|Godot 83 points84 points85 points 2 years ago* (2 children) Good way to lure people in: "ah I knew it supporting Linux is worthless, let's grab popcorn and get my preconception confirmed", and then they're tricked into learning a different conclusion ;) * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 30 points31 points32 points 2 years ago (1 child) Hey, as long as it works. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) It worked on me! Thanks for the information I genuinely appreciate it. I've been binging best practices lately and this just hit me at the right time. Excellent information. I normally avoid early access but I'll be checking out your game ;). * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 49 points50 points51 points 2 years ago (4 children) I think people who just read the titles don't actually make games. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]MeaningfulChoicesLead Game Designer 51 points52 points53 points 2 years ago (2 children) Having spent a long time working in the industry I just wish this was true. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago* (0 children) It's true for me. YMMV, obviously. It depends on many factors. Oh, you meant the titles :) Sorry, got confused by the context. So... I think people who are in lead do :) * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) [-]tydog98 13 points14 points15 points 2 years ago (0 children) People have seriously said the exact same thing you said except made it about how Linux was too fragmented and broken so they decided to stop supporting the game. Oh, and it turns out they got so many bug reports cause the game didn't even work at all on Linux. Many game devs took one guys claim as fact to further reinforce why they shouldn't develop for Linux. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) [-]jojozabadu 38 points39 points40 points 2 years ago* (8 children) Hey this is a tangent, but since you made a thread about your game's development :) Has the game's name starting with a character 'D' been a challenge, a blessing, or inconsequential? My naive guess is that Greece is the only region people have that key on their keyboard. I did some quick (edit: steam)searches to see how I'd find your game if I'd heard its name and was looking for it. 'Delta' didn't match but 'Rings' had you as the 5th result. 'Deltav' works and seems focused on your game almost exclusively. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 43 points44 points45 points 2 years ago (7 children) I don't have data to compare it to, but there were two things that made me use greek delta in the name: * It's a instant geek-filter, as almost everyone in my target audience will know what it means and it will put them into right mindset. * There is a game called Delta-V. Owned by Bethesda. I heard B's lawyers are bit trigger-happy. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]Andernerd 15 points16 points17 points 2 years ago (0 children) Given that second point I'm a little surprised you went with something so similar. But I guess it worked out! * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]jojozabadu 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago (5 children) It's a instant geek-filter, as almost everyone in my target audience will know what it means and it will put them into right mindset. Neat, I knew it from Kerbal. There is a game called Delta-V. Owned by Bethesda. I heard B's lawyers are bit trigger-happy. I don't know much/anything about trademark law except what I read in the tech press (Monster, those litigious fucks), but I wonder if this isn't much different than naming a game 'spyderman' from a legal perspective. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 19 points20 points21 points 2 years ago (4 children) DV is an actual term from rocket science, it's difficult to sue over that. And that's not even the complete title. My legal advice says we're good. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]jojozabadu 15 points16 points17 points 2 years ago (2 children) DV is an actual term from rocket science, it's difficult to sue over that. I mean you could say Apple is an actual term from botany, but I don't think that would stop Tim Apple from suing you if you started making computers or opened a music store with that name. The history of Apple vs. Apple. And that's not even the complete title. That seems more solid. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [-]dddonehoo 20 points21 points22 points 2 years ago (0 children) As a Linux only gamer, you are the best. Thank you so much for the effort to accommodate the community. It goes a long way towards freeing up use of software and making it accessible to everyone. Especially in gaming, a sweet release from reality that reaches so many different people and cultures (non-techies in particular), it helps so much. I love this spirit! * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-][deleted] 14 points15 points16 points 2 years ago (2 children) I was so prepared to come in here expecting it to be another "don't support Linux because they picked apart my unstable, poorly ported game" thread. I'm so happy that that isn't the case and that you not only took the time to read past the initial numbers and think about what was happening, but based on the fact that only 3 bugs were platform-specific, you clearly also took the time to develop a really solid Linux port in the first place. Great work! * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 18 points19 points20 points 2 years ago (1 child) A credit here goes to Godot Engine, it does all the heavy lifting. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]spam-hater 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (0 children) Godot is freakin' amazing innit? I only recently started learning it myself (after finally feeling somewhat competent using Blender 3D), and in the first hour of using Godot I had already learned more and was able to do more than in literal months of trying to do anything at all in Unity 3D. Importing content into Godot couldn't possibly be simpler, and turning that content into something active turned out to be a breeze after reading a few tutorials and watching a bit of YouTube. Love me some Godot engine... Best free geek-toy since Blender. :) * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]deathanatos 12 points13 points14 points 2 years ago (0 children) As a Linux user, I really appreciate you writing this. Thanks for supporting us! ... a fair number of us Linux users, I suspect, are also developers. I myself, am, so yeah, I know exactly how far "it crashes" doesn't go. I really appreciate too, when developers do a good job of making a logs, etc. easy to access. (Even if it's just inside the Steam directory, or inside Unity's place for the game's data in .config, etc. -- if I can find it in a few guess, excellent. If you have some sort of Wiki that says where to go, perfect!) I also greatly appreciate when devs are responsive & empathetic in bug reports, even if it isn't ultimately fixable. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]paulsmithkc 47 points48 points49 points 2 years ago (4 children) Is it possible that Linux users are more likely to: a) know how to report a bug b) follow through on reporting the bug c) actually spot bugs to be reported I think all of the above are likely. A sizable chunk of Linux users are in IT, CyberSecurity, and Software Development. All of which have professional experience in support tickets / bug reports. What is the percentage of falsy reported PEBKAC errors on Windows? * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 19 points20 points21 points 2 years ago (0 children) What is the percentage of falsy reported PEBKAC errors on Windows? Hard to tell, but in addition to these 1040 bugs I have 100 issues currently filed as "can't replicate" and I don't think single of them I got from someone playing on Linux. That would make it roughly 10%. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]qwertyuiop924 11 points12 points13 points 2 years ago (0 children) It's also just a part of the culture. Linux users who play games run Linux at home. In the support contract-less world of using Linux at home, debugging is a communal activity, and the reporter is expected to actively participate in the process by gathering data, submitting findings, and helping to root-cause. If you come from that culture, the idea of submitting a bug along the lines of "it crashes sometimes maybe" is just... fundamentally anti-social. If you haven't made a best effort to at least gather data so the developer has a hope of debugging, you haven't fulfilled your end of the social contract. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (2 replies) [-]mrogre43@blacktabbygames 46 points47 points48 points 2 years ago (8 children) Same experience here. Linux folks not only are our most frequent bug reporters, but they're also the best at documenting their issues and sometimes just... give us code for UI improvements? * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]CakeIzGood 24 points25 points26 points 2 years ago (1 child) LOL "hey I think this could be better about your UI anyways I wrote my own version of it you can use it if you want" * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]mrogre43@blacktabbygames 21 points22 points23 points 2 years ago (0 children) This is literally what happened and they weren't wrong * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]user4s 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago (2 children) give us code for UI improvements? LOL * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]hopbel 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (1 child) "Fine, I'll do it myself" is pretty much the basis of all good FOSS projects * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) [-]sy029 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (2 children) As a linux user I'd also like to add in that we will go extremely out of our way to fix insignificant annoyances. I once spent four hours messing with a launcher for a game, because it didn't properly support the obscure terminal I was running it from. I could have just used xterm or one of the major terminals instead, but no. Must be my way! * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]spam-hater 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (0 children) In my case this urge has it's roots in how I started on computers where you practically had to build your software from scratch half the time, so much of what your computer did was because you actively told it to do it. Then moving on (for a while) to locked down proprietary platforms like MacOS or Windows, it felt a bit like being chained down by your operating system, as much of the time spent on the computer was spent fighting with the operating system to convince it to allow you to do things the way that you want to do them on your computer. Then I found Linux, and suddenly I had 100% total freedom over my computer again, so now when something on Linux annoys me, I'll actively dig until I find how to fix or replace it, because I can. :) * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) [-]adnanclyde 11 points12 points13 points 2 years ago (0 children) A platform heavily populated by devs is sure to have the best reports. If I leave a bug report, you can bet it will have a 15 step procedure of how to reliably replicate it, with language that has 0 ambiguities. Because I know that that's the kind of ticket I love receiving. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-][deleted] 19 points20 points21 points 2 years ago (0 children) Well, you just won another buyer * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]TheSupremistGodot Apprentice 27 points28 points29 points 2 years ago (6 children) This. This is what I wanted most devs on Twitter that complain about "fragmentation" to understand right off the bat. They should be happy they're getting bug reports at all instead of complaining, imagine leaving your game in a forever buggy state because you decided to ignore lots of useful info because of "market share and muh fragmentation it's too costly". Having more and more detailed bug reports doesn't mean the platform is buggy, it means your game is held to higher standards and you definitely should care about that, regardless of market share or profit. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]FlukyS 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (5 children) This is what I wanted most devs on Twitter that complain about "fragmentation" to understand right off the bat Well most devs who complain about fragmentation probably are pulling that from before Steam had the Steam runtime available. That is a killer feature from a compatibility standpoint and doubly so when you use their Linux namespace runtime which means you can freeze your game in time pretty much because the compat features are locked in a container. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]TheSupremistGodot Apprentice 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (4 children) Yes, I guess it's mainly because Valve isn't marketing the Linux runtime(s) nearly as much as Proton, if at all. I'm pretty sure if you ask any dev today they might say they know about the latter, but a lot of them might say they never heard of the former. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]FlukyS 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (3 children) I guess it's mainly because Valve isn't marketing the Linux runtime(s) nearly as much as Proton Well them advocating for Proton is only a new thing. The runtime they have been talking about for quite a long time. but a lot of them might say they never heard of the former But the weird thing is most Linux games today use it. Just when they are developing they don't make use of that and they don't understand you shouldn't care if they are running Ubuntu, Arch, Debian, Gentoo, Manjaro or Mint or even obscure stuff like Hanna Montana Linux. You just target the runtime and let everything else fall into place. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (3 replies) [-]etaipo 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago (3 children) I wish more devs and publishers understood this. So many of them, even if they have a Linux release, will specifically say that they "don't provide active support" because for whatever reason they think bug reports are bad. Thank you OP * permalink * embed * save * report * reply load more comments (3 replies) [-][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (0 children) I noticed my game pick up a lot of steam after releasing a Linux version. The Linux community is a really excited bunch that are happy to tell the world about your game, apparently. It made me a lot of Windows sales too, because of that free organic advertisement. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (0 children) I imagine because the Linux community are much more accustomed to troubleshooting and being tech-aware. Generally speaking, they're used to being slightly more involved in the development of software than a regular Windows or MOSX user. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]CallinCthulhu 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (0 children) Because the cross section of Linux users and people with programming/ admin experience is really damn high. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]SkyMarshal 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (0 children) As a Linux-only user since 2009, I regularly report bugs to key projects I care about, like my distro, Firefox, Wine, etc. Never bothered previously on Windows. Linux is, and feels like, a DIY group effort, where it is what you make it to be, and everyone is empowered to contribute even in small ways. So this isn't surprising. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]CharlieDmouse 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (2 children) I haven't touched Linux in years...but I immediately knew where this story was going. Love the community! * permalink * embed * save * report * reply load more comments (2 replies) [-]Samsagax 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (0 children) My good friend, you just got a new sale from the Linux community ;) * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]YagoDaiki 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (0 children) Just because of your post I'll give a try to your game fellow dev * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]ThatGuyNamedKal 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (0 children) Love your game. This is some interesting info, I'm not surprised that Linux users are more competent. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (0 children) The body of this post did not go how I expected it to go after reading the title. Kudos for taking this positively and making the (absolute) most of it too. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]HorseFeathers55 18 points19 points20 points 2 years ago (10 children) Now you are making me want to support Linux lol, have any data on the marketing side? * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 20 points21 points22 points 2 years ago (9 children) What kind of data are you looking for? I found that when you do honest support - not just being an afterthought, and most importantly - reading and acting upon the reports you get - you will get fabulous marketing by word-of-mouth. Is there anything specific you'd want to know about? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]HorseFeathers55 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (8 children) Kind of was just asking generally about it, have my first game coming out late November and have been trying to find strategies to get it seen more, tried google ads for about a week and it really didn't do much so stopped that, have sent the game to a few curators on steam and got 1 review * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 17 points18 points19 points 2 years ago (3 children) Well in my experience, the best general marketing strategy for independent developers is to get someone to record your game on YouTube. Ads are worthless in my experience - people just don't care about it. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]INITMalcanis 13 points14 points15 points 2 years ago (0 children) Ads are worthless in my experience - people just don't care about it. More like: we just don't ever see them. Ad blockers are a thing. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]LinkedUno 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (0 children) Not a dev, just a very conservative game buyer. I normally wait years to play games and wait for all bug fixes and dlcs, but I can confirm that the YouTube strategy works, especially if the game has a multiplayer component. In the last few years the only games I bought close to launch were multiplayer games that gained popularity in my circle of friends due to some twitch streamer or youtuber showcasing the game on their platform. Another tactic that you could try is to advertise your game on Reddit and give away a few game keys. A very kind indie game developer gave me one of his game keys and I really enjoyed the game, so I got all my friends to buy the game as well. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]HorseFeathers55 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) Thank you for the advice, it really is much appreciated :) * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]WaitForItTheMongols 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (0 children) Post on Linux gaming subs saying "my new game came out and it supports Linux, would love to hear what you think!". You'll get a pretty solid conversion rate, as confirmed by at least one other commenter on this post. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (3 replies) [-]Asherware 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (8 children) I just came across the post at the exact same time I was watching this and now I'm tripping. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGsajLIALJE * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (7 children) Our game map in DV is directly based on Cassini-Huygens images :) * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (7 replies) [-]apyoung88 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (7 children) Curious as I am thinking of how I want to incorporate bug reports into my game. How do you handle this? Is it in game, or do you link to an out of game form? Or something else? * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]StuntHacks 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (0 children) I think the best way that allows average users to send bug reports would be to add an in-game menu that then transmits the Report to an external bug tracker, where more invested people can discuss it * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago (5 children) I have game discord linked in the game itself, and it is a preferred way to report (as you can get community support 24/7 even if I'm asleep, and when I'm on the subject I can get real-time answers that would take weeks over e-mail). But I still do email support too, even if it's slower. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (5 replies) [-]TheMagicSalami 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (0 children) I mainly use Linux (Unix) for work and occasionally with the subsystem for windows. So I'm not a high and mighty have to use arch blah blah blah guy. But when I read the title in my mind I envisioned exactly what your findings were. People that are willing to fine tune their own operating system and report issues that they can't fix on their own are going to be much more likely to do so on other things as well. Great write up, helps show why for example I went with Bitwarden after changes to LastPass because they are open sourced. That leads to highly motivated individuals providing invaluable feedback to devs. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]tasinet 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (0 children) From what you report and your behaviour in this thread: I have to say, your community engagement is on-fucking-point. Kudos! * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (0 children) Nice looking game * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]positivcheg 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) Haha. That feeling when I encounter https://www.gamingonlinux.com/ 2021/10/ 58-sales-and-over-38-of-bug-reports-from-linux-said-one-dev-but-its-been-helpful in my google news just 12 hours after I've read this post. P.S.: I do really like you mentioning that fact about Linux community. Some people might think that Linux community is toxic as fuck when they read about Linus Torvalds. But this is the opposite in reality. Only archlinux nerds are toxic who I was for a while til I just agreed with some facts that C++ is not the best language and macOS/Windows are not that shitty as arch nerds call them * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]DisRapt0r 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (2 children) No clue about bug reports or programming, but can't you add checkmarks to let people send data from their PC setup, game config/ log and maybe connection? If I encounter a game crash, as a layman, I have no idea where to find any relevant information that would be helpful for the developer. So I always assumed bug reports would have some attached logs. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 11 points12 points13 points 2 years ago (1 child) I can and I do, but the key thing any developer needs is a way to reproduce the problem on my machine. When I can see the bug in front of my eyes, it usually takes minutes to fix. The days before are spent on attempts to trigger it on my side. Logs are one way to help with that, as they record what was going on with the game - but logs only cover things that we anticipated. You cannot possibly log everything, because that log would grow in by gigabytes per second, and would have a tremendous performance impact. The key difference, in my experience, is that the Linux folks are trained to do so instinctively, as that's what most of the open-source software they use expect. So I get the reproduction steps and many really relevant information in addition to all the things I thought of. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) [-]selflessGene 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (0 children) Almost everyone who uses Linux on desktop is either a software developer or a tech enthusiast. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (6 children) Out of curiosity, is your game open-source? I tend to be more likely to bug those because I know I'll be able to come back in 10 years and still have it working. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (5 children) Unfortunately, no. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (4 children) Why would that be? I'm not asking you to make your code public, I'm just starting on my own project and I'm interested in other developers' opinions. Is it like a legal thing, or something else? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (3 children) There are things in repository covered by NDAs and incompatible licences. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (2 children) Gotcha, that makes sense. Legal is a total mess. Would you open-source it if you could? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (1 child) With the experience I currently have with it, probably yes. Doesn't mean I'd be accepting many merge requests through - at least not in this stage of development. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) Yeah, of course. Open-source encourages (Linux) users to look at the code and point out specifically what probably caused the bug that they're reporting, though that's much less common than a straight up report. Thanks for letting me pick your brain! I have been leaning toward open-source, I'm just not entirely sure yet. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]crusoe 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) We're used to filing bugs because most OSS projects have public bug sites and make it easy to report them. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]Lokarin@nirakolov 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (0 children) Heyo, I just viewed the promo video on your steam store page... while not my cup of tea (hypocritically, since I love Transcendence) - I must say your lighting effects are rather impressive... every good contrast without blurring/bleeding * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]ikidd 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (1 child) Most Linux users abide by this classic post about how to ask smart questions when looking for support * permalink * embed * save * report * reply load more comments (1 reply) [-]MaxHedrome 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) I came here to be sarcastic, "oh, you mean the Linux community knows how to properly report bugs". Finds out OP is singing these exact praises. Leaves thinking this monday is going to be great, and the world is a little shinier today. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]Tryant666 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (0 children) Pcgamer.com made an article about this post. https://www.pcgamer.com/ indie-dev-finds-that-linux-users-generate-more-better-bug-reports * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]dector9 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (1 child) Thanks for supporting Linux Gaming! * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]koderski@KoderaSoftware[S] 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) Oh, no - thank you for helping me make my game better! * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]Schievel1 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) "Their report quality is stellar" It's the gnome devs. They broke us :( * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]sozesghost 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (0 children) Your game was an instant purchase, thanks! * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]kintar1900 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (0 children) That's interesting! I play (and LOVE!) your game on Windows, and haven't run across a single bug yet. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]gnarlin 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (2 children) What engine is the game using? Will you consider using a Freedom respecting engine for your games? Having a Free engine does NOT mean that you have to give your game away! All games fundamentally consist of two parts: engine and assets. Just because the engine would be Free (as in Freedom) doesn't mean that the assets wouldn't still be proprietary. You can then sell the combined part. Just imagine how faster and better the community could identify and fix bugs if the engine was Free? The community could also submit new patches and help improve the engine. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (1 child) He's using Godot 3.3.2 from elsewhere in the thread * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]gnarlin 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (0 children) Thanks. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * reply [-]parasite_avi 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (0 children) Thanks a lot for posting this! I am not a gamedev nor did I buy your game and submit any bugs, but being a part of Linux community really made me quite a bit more demanding in terms of reviews and describing problems. Your post is just a heartwarming reasurrance that I am not wasting my time when I try to be elaborate with that sort of thing. Wish you all the best on your journey! * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) This is so true. I never thought about it like this, but since switching to Linux (just because of the various issues I ran into because Linux is so much more fun to tinker with), I've written lots of bug reports. I'm a part of FTC and I've actually updated documentation for libraries I don't maintain and cleaned up a bunch of OpenFTC code through PRs. I don't think I would've done anything like this without the "training" that I have had using Linux. I think we should have uni classes that teach how to write good bug reports, type, and ask good questions. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]eirexeph.eirteam.moe 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) I have the same experience, bar pulseaudio shenanigans because my game is heavily audio-focused, I really have had no major pains with the linux version (in fact, the most painful one is the Windows version). * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]julikaiba 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (0 children) pretty unfortunate that most people will probably only read the title... * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]Arno_QS 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (0 children) I looked over the Steam store description for your game and I pretty much felt like it wasn't my cup of tea...but then I read the user reviews and watched the trailers, and it was only then that I was 100% sure of it. :) I say that because when I tell you that I subsequently bought the Tungsten Edition (and did it with a smile on my face) because of this post, I want you to understand my full meaning. By posting this -- and, particularly, the analytics about the taxonomy of the reports -- you've done more of a service than you may realize. I mean, I don't want to get too superfluous, but having specific, researched use cases like this to point to is really nice. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]spcbfr 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) Totally not what I expected when I read the title * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]acAltair 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) Native builds should always be prioritized for Linux but it doesn't have to be everything or nothing. As a Linux gamer I appreciate even miniscule efforts. If you can't commit to a native build you can still do and consider following: * Native DXVK * Avoid software and practices for your Windows build that hurts WINE/Proton compatibility * Make sure Proton issues of your game is looked into i.e work with Valve If you solve a Proton issue not only will it make Linux gamers happy, but your fix may pay dividends to other devs games who have same issue. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]ToiletGrenade 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) Finally, someone who appreciates our efforts instead of complaining about it and for that I appreciate you man * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]stevezap 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (0 children) It could be an idea to make the Linux version cheaper (even if only a little). After all, they're doing QA for you :] * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]mattias_jcb 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) This is very interesting, thanks for sharing! * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]mild_entropy 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) This was a good read! Thanks for sharing your insight! Gotta say your game looks cool, and I'm thrilled there's a demo! I'll check it out * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) Most of the time I figured out how to fix minor bugs while testing and reproducing bugs to file reports so yeah. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]Unrequited_Anal 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) wow, that didn't go the way I expected. Very interesting! * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]JayCroghan 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) That's phenomenal and carries on from my own experience developing for Windows and Linux in the early 00s. I used to be the sole engineer on CS:S ZombieMod and something I found a huge help was including the symbol files with beta releases to the "good" players would result in far less work for me down the line. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]CorporalKingThumb 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) Interesting, good to know. Thanks for sharing. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]jefflunt 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) Hmm. Very interesting finding. Thanks for sharing. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [+][deleted] 2 years ago (3 children) [deleted] load more comments (3 replies) [-]Lucretia9 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) This is what happens when the people who use the os are developers and are used to bug reports. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply [-]TheJewBakka 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) Oui oui, biais d'echantillonnage. * permalink * embed * save * report * reply load more comments (191 replies) * about * blog * about * advertising * careers * help * site rules * Reddit help center * reddiquette * mod guidelines * contact us * apps & tools * Reddit for iPhone * Reddit for Android * mobile website * <3 * reddit premium Use of this site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy. (c) 2023 reddit inc. All rights reserved. REDDIT and the ALIEN Logo are registered trademarks of reddit inc. 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