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Rich-Harris/what-is-svelte.md

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The truth about Svelte
Raw
what-is-svelte.md

I've been deceiving you all. I had you believe that Svelte was a UI
framework -- unlike React and Vue etc, because it shifts work out of
the client and into the compiler, but a framework nonetheless.

But that's not exactly accurate. In my defense, I didn't realise it
myself until very recently. But with Svelte 3 around the corner, it's
time to come clean about what Svelte really is.

Svelte is a language.

Specifically, Svelte is an attempt to answer a question that many
people have asked, and a few have answered: what would it look like
if we had a language for describing reactive user interfaces?

A few projects that have answered this question:

  * Elm
  * Imba
  * Idyll
  * Marko
  * ...probably many others

(Idyll is an outlier as it's geared towards a specific use case,
rather than general purpose app development, but I think it qualifies
as an example.)

These projects are all very cool, but there's a reason they haven't
hit mass adoption: they want to control the entire world. You can't
adopt Elm or Imba incrementally, and they need dedicated tooling far
beyond just the compiler itself (e.g. syntax highlighting, unless you
like your code monochrome). In some cases (Elm stands out), interop
with the JS ecosystem is less than seamless.

Beyond that, they have a steep learning curve, which is hard to
justify when there are so many options that are more accessible.

 Thinking inside the box

What if we had a language that was designed for building reactive
user interfaces, but that also worked with your existing tools? What
if you didn't need you to discard your years of experience using
HTML, CSS and JavaScript, because it extended those languages?

  * It would extend HTML by adding JavaScript expressions in markup,
    directives for controlling behaviour and reacting to input,
    syntax for using conditions, loops and asynchronous values
  * It would extend CSS by adding a scoping mechanism that kept
    styles from clobbering each other
  * It would extend JavaScript by making reactivity a language
    primitive

How do we make reactivity a language primitive without introducing
invalid syntax, or breaking the relationship with existing tooling
(like TypeScript)? By hacking existing syntax:

  * We instrument assignments to variables and properties
  * We add $: statements, using the little-known label construct,
    that run whenever their inputs change value
  * We tie it all together with an opinionated scheduler

This, to me, is the best of all possible worlds: we can lean on
decades of accumulated wisdom by extending well-known languages,
author components in a delightfully concise and expressive way, and
yet still generate apps that are bleeding-edge in terms of
performance and everything that goes with it.

Load earlier comments...
@sonyarianto
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sonyarianto commented Dec 23, 2019

@Rich-Harris or anyone, I am learning Svelte and can I know any post
or article for gradual adoption to it? Thanks for such a great
product and bright potential on the future.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@rbenzazon
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rbenzazon commented Dec 31, 2019

I just used svelte to convert a vue project and I had a great
experience.
To reduce the "time to first professional delivery", this tech could
use some additions :

-a simple built in solution for internationalization
-simple config option to make the styles unscoped and/or cascading to
child instances
-support nested css rules
-lazy loading to further svelte advantage on bundle size
-configure the basic template with default json import support
(rollup plugin / config)
-make the !production runtime variable easier to find and why not
associate the alias feature of rollup with this doc/tuto to let users
have some dev/prod variants.

These are subjective opinions after a specific task / context but I
believe this situation is the most useful when gathering feedback for
improvements.

Apart from that I can say that this experience was seamless even if I
had previous experience with neither svelte nor vue.
I'm planning on using svelte very often, especially because I work on
website customization and additional content which benefit from being
bundled small and executing fast. Thanks for offering us this great
tool

Sorry, something went wrong.

@defenestrator
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defenestrator commented Jan 27, 2020

https://gist.github.com/Rich-Harris/0f910048478c2a6505d1c32185b61934#
gistcomment-3016695

SDL?
LSD?

That was my first thought. It is more of a Domain Specific Language
or Grammar, than an 'actual' language. Nonetheless, totally
compelling. Evaluating SvelteJS vs AlpineJS for a project right now.
Excited about both for slightly different reasons.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@nonopolarity
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nonopolarity commented Feb 2, 2020 *
edited

I like Svelte's loop

        {#each cats as cat}
                <li><a target="_blank" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v={cat.id}">
                        {cat.name}
                </a></li>
        {/each}

although it reads "each cats as cat"... could it be "loop cats as
cat"? It could be "each cat of cats".

I feel weird with

<ul id="example-1">
  <li v-for="item in items">
    {{ item.message }}
  </li>
</ul>

or

<li *ngFor="let product of products">
    <h2>{{product.name}} / ${{product.price}}</h2>
    <p> {{product.description}} </p>
</li>

It is like, you have to read <li ... and then the for, and then move
that for to the left of <li ..., to make it

for ... <li .... instead... maybe I am just not used to reading code
that needs a programmer to backtrack.

If it can be

  <li repeated-for="item in items">
    {{ item.message }}
  </li>

then it reads "<li repeated for ... the following", and it is more
natural.

  <li repeated-for-each="item in items">
    {{ item.message }}
  </li>

and

  <li for-each="item in items">
    {{ item.message }}
  </li>

also read naturally.

I feel ok with this too:

    <ul>
      {elements.map((value, index) =>
        <li key={index}>{value}</li>
      )}
    </ul>

Some people don't like the JSX, but you can just view it as mapping
from the HTML code to some DOM creation code. (which is what it
really does).

Sorry, something went wrong.

@cgarciae
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cgarciae commented Mar 15, 2020

@Rich-Harris

If you had the chance, what would you change to JS, HTML, and CSS to
improve upon Svelte? In other words, if you had infinite resources
and could modify everything how would this platform of the future
look like?

Sorry, something went wrong.

@jjouvins
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jjouvins commented Mar 25, 2020

I am about to start the development of a new project so that it can
be executed on desktop, android and iOS devices, Svelte seems to me
the simplest and most elegant option to do so, but I have the
following doubts:

 1. What assurance do I have that the project continues in time, I
    only see that Rich-Harris is the one who worries about this, I do
    not see interaction on the blog (https://svelte.dev/blog) the
    last date was 03/22/2019, I don't see any plans for new
    improvements or features.
 2. I see that Svelte offers some options to work the ui / ux of the
    applications, but it also allows other libraries to be used to do
    it, this will continue to improve so that it contains everything
    like ionic for example.
 3. The most direct approach to native applications directly
    supported by svelte is planned.

Sorry, something went wrong.

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ghost commented Apr 4, 2020

@jjouvinis answering to point number one, you have no guarantees.
This is an open source project. You can be pretty sure your code will
still work with the same library version you coded it in, always.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@ryanatkn
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ryanatkn commented Apr 13, 2020 *
edited

@jjouvins I'm a Svelte user, not a member of the development team. I
think enough time has passed since you asked the questions to let
someone more qualified respond if they wanted to, so I'll offer my
responses.

     1. What assurance do I have that the project continues in time,
        I only see that Rich-Harris is the one who worries about
        this, I do not see interaction on the blog (svelte.dev/blog)
        the last date was 03/22/2019, I don't see any plans for new
        improvements or features.

There's a lot to unpack here.

  * Like v0idifier said there is no assurance the project will
    continue like it has, nor is there with any open source project.
    In some ways there's more risk, because Rich is the primary
    developer and he does not work on Svelte full time, but a
    flourishing community has formed - it's inaccurate to say Rich is
    the only one. There are many active contributors and the
    community and core development team have many generous
    volunteers. A lot of companies use Svelte in production. In other
    ways there is less risk to using Svelte, in part because there
    isn't a single company driving everything according to its own
    needs. My personal read is that the community is robust enough to
    survive life's unpredictability.
  * The blog has never been a good indicator of Svelte's development.
    See the Svelte issues and Discord - both have a lot of activity.
  * For ongoing discussion about improvements, features, and
    proposals see the RFCs and the issues. Anyone can make an RFC or
    comment on one, and in my experience it's a shining example of
    open source working beautifully. The project sveltejs/
    language-tools is a set of in-progress features that's high
    priority for a lot of people, and it indicates increasing
    maturity of the Svelte language.

     2. I see that Svelte offers some options to work the ui / ux of
        the applications, but it also allows other libraries to be
        used to do it, this will continue to improve so that it
        contains everything like ionic for example.

Svelte is a component framework and Sapper is an app framework with a
featureset that's narrow compared to Ionic. Svelte and Sapper are
tightly focused on specific problems, and because they integrate
fluidly with web APIs and JavaScript, they can be naturally extended
by projects with a bigger scope. They by themselves won't ever give
you the all-in-one experience of an Ionic. Rich has shown interest in
leveraging Svelte and Sapper to provide a more complete experience
with experiments like Sapper Studio, and I suspect some motivated
people are working on similar projects right now.

     3. The most direct approach to native applications directly
        supported by svelte is planned.

The team is not officially supporting native applications today but
as a compiler Svelte's future is promising. The unofficial project
Svelte Native is the biggest one here and it has its own channel on
the official Discord. I can't speak to whether it's "the most direct
approach" and I haven't used it. You'll have to do your own research
to see if it's suitable for your needs.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@mretty
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mretty commented Jun 14, 2020

Sapper is a complete turn-off for Svelte adoption. Why cant Svelte be
a standlone-implementation like React ?

Sorry, something went wrong.

@vectorselector
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vectorselector commented Jun 14, 2020 *
edited

@mretty, I'm a total noob here, and I also might completely be
misunderstanding your question.
It's my understanding that Sapper is not a required part of using
Svelte to generate your html/css/js.
One can use Svelte tooling for rollup, webpack, etc. One can directly
invoke the Svelte compiler via it's API (from your language of
choice, I suppose...)
The end result is a transformation of Svelte code to html/css/js in a
"component" fashion.
One COULD simply transpile your Svelte to this and then include the
results in a page via script tags, but that sort of defeats the point
of being able to continuously iterate on the source, or would make a
lot of leg work.

I also have little interest in Sapper or any server-side Node.js, but
I digress.
Svelte is exciting, for sure.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@autr
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autr commented Jul 1, 2020

Been using Svelte for the last 3 days and it is gooooorrrrrgeous. Top
work! <3

Sorry, something went wrong.

@nemzyx
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nemzyx commented Jul 12, 2020

    Sapper is a complete turn-off for Svelte adoption. Why cant
    Svelte be a standlone-implementation like React ?

Because of flexibility. Svelte is not a monolith. It's a language.
Sapper is the React standalone-implementation of the svelte language,
just like React is of JSX. React is what makes JSX "useful", just
like Sapper makes Svelte "useful". But really, by separating compiler
/language from framework, it allows people to make a lot more stuff
with svelte than just PWAs.

Really, look at what people makes with svelte:
https://mdsvex.com/

This is only possible, because svelte is just the compiler, and
doesn't ship with a box, that locks you into only making PWAs.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@Rokata9
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Rokata9 commented Aug 7, 2020 *
edited

I'm really impressed with this [DEL:framework:DEL] language, to be
honest. And compiling things beforehand, rather than having a runtime
in the browser doing the stuff, really appeals to me.

I have a question (mostly to the author, @Rich-Harris) - how do you
think Svelte can gain as much popularity as React and Angular in the
future? Note that I'm not including Vue in the question, because
unfortunately (for me, at least) it has very low popularity among IT
companies in my country, Bulgaria, for example (although having more
GitHub stars than any of the others and despite the relatively high
number of npm downloads).

Looking at npm downloads, there's a signifact increase in Svelte
downloads for the last year (80% as I can see), but numbers are still
low compared to the most popular libs/frameworks out there.

Just for the record, I'm React developer and I still think it's a
great library, but it's normal that newer libs might have better
ideas and be more compact at the same time (having in mind Svelte and
Vue). Looking forward to your reply, have a great one! 

Sorry, something went wrong.

@MehdiRaash
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MehdiRaash commented Aug 11, 2020

@Rokata9 Of course newer libraries have better ideas, But to me, In
my company, I preferred to use a library that have as fewer
abstraction as possible to work with.
Anyways for me less abstraction and better integration with my
existing code is important, Libraries (or as the author tend to call
'language') such Svelte definitely offer niche performance, but it's
not my concern.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@Rokata9
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Rokata9 commented Aug 11, 2020

@MehdiRaash, yes it depends on the project you have. I don't know
exactly what you mean by fewer abstraction (probably less
library-specific template engine or even language in case of Svelte),
but probably React goes to that group you're refering to.

I liked it mostly because of the flexibility that JSX offers, but Vue
also has JSX now and even more than that (seems like a more rich
library and smaller at the same time). React hooks also are nice, but
again Vue took them to the next (better IMHO) level with the
Composition API.
But in my experience at least, JSX sometimes lead to less readable
markup code, and if you have smaller threshold for certain rules in
prettier things get even more difficult. And that's where it would
come in handy for me a robust (yes, still library-specific) template
engine (Svelte, Vue).

Sorry, something went wrong.

@MehdiRaash
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MehdiRaash commented Aug 11, 2020 *
edited

React does not belong to the Svelte group in terms of abstraction,
although there were some attempts to do pre-compiling the code to
something intermediary(prepack) code.
The thing is react is just a library, the JSX is like plugin to react
in my opinion. so babel help the code like a helper library.

Slvete is a totally different thing, the code you write is like a new
interface(thus it's called a language) to you, not the JavaScript
code that you expect to run in the browser, so as you know that
interface should be compiled to a optimised and pre-compiled version
of JS.

Regarding the Vue vs React, in my opinion these two have become quite
robust. both use VDOM the same manner.
React has JSX(also Vue) and backed by facebook, for me that's more
convincing, at this time to pick up for my next project.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@skanskan
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skanskan commented Oct 24, 2020

    QML

How does QML compare to Vue in terms of easiness, speed and memory?

Sorry, something went wrong.

@abhijitgujar86
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abhijitgujar86 commented Nov 6, 2020

nether the less, I think that svelte is amazing , easy , straight
forward ,lets the developer focus on his logic ....

Sorry, something went wrong.

@DavidKloucek
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DavidKloucek commented Nov 14, 2020

I only played with Svelte 1-2 hours, no real project, but it looks
promising. You can immediately start writing without learning tons of
patterns, no Vue 3 reactivity drawbacks (ref() and reactive() sucks),
maximum performance..
I think that compilation is the future, because React/Vue is a
compromise between UX (performance) and DX, but Svelte's compilation
gives the best for both.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@mzohaibqc
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mzohaibqc commented Nov 23, 2020 *
edited

I went through few tutorials and then created an app with
authentication, some public and protected pages in 2-3 hours. Played
with animations and added component library (svelte-materialify).
Added sass/scss support.

Super cool stuff and easy to develop. I am on board.

[?]

Sorry, something went wrong.

@Papierkorb
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Papierkorb commented Dec 22, 2020

Just found Svelte today. It looks great!

I've been coding for 17 years now. I wrote a friggin x86 kernel over
a decade ago because I wondered "how computers work". I think I
understand coding. I like C++/Qt to build UIs, but they're really
limiting in todays world. I, for the life of me, don't understand
Angular nor React or Vue.js. They're so insanely complicated to do
things that should be easy (See C++/Qt or QML/Qt). Svelte v3 looks so
much saner than anything I've come across yet. Thank You for Svetle!

Next thing is I need to figure out how I can integrate this node.js
(I've never worked with that) with my back-end written in Ruby or
Crystal. Especially for development.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@sanathusk
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sanathusk commented Jan 6, 2021

SVetle is a great a tool.makes UI building fun.I personally feel
svelte should try to extend itself to support GUI development.for
example if SVetle could provide bindings from gtk3 it could make a
break through in a new domain. Honestly the web GUI development is
crowded and domainated . Supporting such alternative stack would
benefit svelte as I will not be just another framework in that space.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@hannah23280
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hannah23280 commented Jun 11, 2021 *
edited

        I like Svelte's loop

                {#each cats as cat}
                        <li><a target="_blank" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v={cat.id}">
                                {cat.name}
                        </a></li>
                {/each}

        although it reads "each cats as cat"... could it be "loop
        cats as cat"? It could be "each cat of cats".
        I feel weird with

        <ul id="example-1">
          <li v-for="item in items">
            {{ item.message }}
          </li>
        </ul>

        or

        <li *ngFor="let product of products">
            <h2>{{product.name}} / ${{product.price}}</h2>
            <p> {{product.description}} </p>
        </li>

        It is like, you have to read <li ... and then the for, and
        then move that for to the left of <li ..., to make it
        for ... <li .... instead... maybe I am just not used to
        reading code that needs a programmer to backtrack.
        If it can be

          <li repeated-for="item in items">
            {{ item.message }}
          </li>

        then it reads "<li repeated for ... the following", and it is
        more natural.

          <li repeated-for-each="item in items">
            {{ item.message }}
          </li>

        and

          <li for-each="item in items">
            {{ item.message }}
          </li>

        also read naturally.
        I feel ok with this too:

            <ul>
              {elements.map((value, index) =>
                <li key={index}>{value}</li>
              )}
            </ul>

        Some people don't like the JSX, but you can just view it as
        mapping from the HTML code to some DOM creation code. (which
        is what it really does).

    Don't you think for-each, repeated-for-each, repeated-for is too
    lengthy?

Actually for the loop, i prefer angular version. Cos svelte add
additional lines to specify the loop. Imagine the below

<div *ngFor="let product of products">{{product}}</div>
//other elements in between
<div  *ngFor="let product of products">{{product}}</div>
//other elements in between
<div  *ngFor="let product of products">{{product}}</div>

For angular, i can just add the loop construct (i.e ngFor) without
introducing extra lines. But for svelte, will introduce 6 more extra
lines to achieve the loop. This will make the html more cluttered.
I truely hope that there will be a day where svelte will provide
syntactic sugar where we can add the loops construct as an attributes
of the element to loop (similar to that of angular). The svelte
compiler wlll then be able to convert that syntatic sugar back to the
current syntax.

That goes the same for if/else

See sveltejs/svelte#3288 on similar discussion

Sorry, something went wrong.

@chenzx
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chenzx commented Mar 16, 2022

I like Svelte, and i'm reading its impl internals. Some code hard to
understand for now.

I have an idea: to extend vanilla JS to gain a "Typed DSL", which
means JS with type annotations, then use AOT compile to translate to
other forms of code: like JS (JS to JS, with runtime for reactive,
which is used by Svelte), i want to get wasm or C++ native to boost
performance in NodeJS env...

Sorry, something went wrong.

@tomaz-on
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tomaz-on commented May 8, 2022

Hello guys, I think svelte / sveltekit like:

svelte = compiler

sveltekit = framework

If I am wrong, please teach me and I would appreciate it.

and sveltekit is my first JavaScript framework I'm in ... Almost went
with Vue, but with Blazor I decided to wait and keep with .NET Core
things, but sveltekit made me join and I love it like I love .NET
Core ecosystem

Sorry, something went wrong.

@worldpeaceenginelabs
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worldpeaceenginelabs commented Jun 17, 2022 *
edited

irislib/iris-messenger#113

We have a discussion going, about using Svelte, which will be the
base for Metaverse-Gun https://github.com/worldpeaceenginelabs/
METAVERSE-GUN

I did read your article "The truth about Svelte", i dont disaggree,
just my explainer is better 

Join us! It could help!

Metaverse-Gun

Sorry, something went wrong.

@damienzm
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damienzm commented Sep 9, 2022

Fabulous clickbait: "I've been deceiving you all".. very nice
following your progress, even if your twitter page did rickroll me
lol. Keep up the great work!

Sorry, something went wrong.

@Codes-Wizard
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Codes-Wizard commented Jan 14, 2023

@Rich-Harris I love Svelte man! You gave me the best escape I could
ever hope for: an escape from React's depressing JSX and obsessive
community(Like everyone wants to use react for everything).
I'm moving to SvelteKit next. Then I'm ditching React Native for
Svelte Native.
Thanks a lot. Svelte is literally what I've been dreaming of.
PS: I especially love the interactive tutorial. Webcontainer is
impressive

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@efpage
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efpage commented Mar 13, 2023 *
edited

@Rich-Harris: "Svelte is a language"? Maybe, that is the weakest
point of Svelte. It isn't really a "programming" language! Or maybe,
a fairly limited one. There are - for good reason - about 10
different ways to use loops in Javascript. Svelte knows ? 1 ?

Don't get me wrong: Svelte is absolute fantastic and possibly the
best we could get for the web community today, but I absolutely miss
the option to do all the things we can do with a "real" programming
language.

What, if we coud turn things around and not embed scripting elements
into HTML, but vice versa:
In Svelte, you write:

<script>
        const percentage = [0, 25, 50, 75, 100]
</script>

{#each percentage as p}
<button on:click="{() => progress.set(p/100.0)}">
        {p}%
</button>
{/each}

which is nice and easy to understand. But "#each" is not as powerful
as loops in JS are.

If we could use JS directly, this could be:

<script>
      for (p of [0, 25, 50, 75, 100]){
         <button on:click="{() => progress.set(p/100.0)}">
              {p}%
         </button>
      }
</script>

I do not pray for the JSX-syntax, this is a false friend as well. But
using a full featured programming language would bring much more
power to the task.

As my grandma said: Never do a thing for a computer, that a computer
can do for you.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@rbenzazon
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rbenzazon commented Mar 18, 2023 via email

Sometimes I wonder about why we can't have detached Fragment in the
code like in react, but in a way what svelte offers covers well most
of the use cases, I would like to find some use case where it's a
critical limitation. I guess that this limitation opens the door for
an optimal component pattern. Some code-base in react use all the
possible ways possible to render fragments at the same time and it
becomes uncomfortable. With svelte I got a feeling of predictability.
Svelte components follow more or less the MVC pattern with the script
only containing the state (props,lets) controller (handlers/reactive
statements) stores, the document/style is the view. You don't declare
blocks / functions / state member there, you can only consume,listen
or bind. This means that you can't obfuscate the intents and the how,
it constrains the developer/teams into a clear path. Le lun. 13 mars
2023 a 23:14, Eckehard ***@***.***> a ecrit :
...
***@***.**** commented on this gist. ------------------------------
***@***.*** <https://github.com/Rich-Harris>: "Svelte is a
language"*? Maybe, that is the weakest point of Svelte. It isn't
really a "programming" language! Or maybe, a fairly limited one.
There are - for good reason - about 10 different ways to use loops in
Javascript. Svelte knows ? 1 ? Don't get me wrong: Svelte is absolute
fantastic and possibly the best we could get for the web community
today, but I absolutely miss the option to do all the things we can
do with a "real" programming language. What, if we coud turn things
around and not embed scripting elements into HTML, but vice versa: In
Svelte, you write: <script> const percentage = [0, 25, 50, 75, 100]</
script> {#each percentage as p,i}<button on:click="{() =>
progress.set(p/100.0)}"> {p}%</button> which is nice and easy to
understand. But "#each" is not as powerful as loops in JS ar. If we
could use JS directly, this could be: <script> for (p of [0, 25, 50,
75, 100]){ <button on:click="{() => progress.set(p/100.0)}"> {p}% </
button> }</script> I do not pray for the JSX-syntax, this is a false
friend as well. But using a full featured programming language would
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