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Rust: The wrong people are resigning
Raw
2023-05-28.md

 Rust: The wrong people are resigning

(Note: I usually blog at https://fasterthanli.me but I'm away for a
couple days and wanted to make a statement)

Up until recently, I was part of two private online discussion spaces
where a bunch of Rust people hung out.

So, whenever there was drama, like when the entire mod team resigned,
or when a trademark draft got a lot of people seriously worried, or
just recently when RustConf took back the keynote from ThePHD https:/
/thephd.dev/i-am-no-longer-speaking-at-rustconf-2023 then JT resigned
over it https://www.jntrnr.com/why-i-left-rust/ and Saoirse wrote
about governance https://without.boats/blog/if-you-can-keep-it/, I
had some place to go, to assess how serious things were this time
around.

And most of the time, it turned out that the intentions were, in
fact, good! But the execution was poor -- or that there was a lack of
resources, a lack of process, or a lack of manpower, or a deadline to
hold, or it was just that person being that person again.

Except, it's never just that one person, you know? Otherwise I could
burn myself by outing them, and do the whole community a favor.

It's really more like those 4 or 5 persons.

And it's not like they're really bad people, it's more like they tend
to... use back channels rather than follow process? Or they have too
many responsibilities, and are unable to fulfill all of them
properly? Or maybe they don't listen enough?

Or maybe it's not individuals, but pairs of individuals who have a
feud for some reason or other (sometimes completely valid). Maybe one
party feels slighted by something that happened years ago, maybe they
have irreconcilable goals or technical views, or differing opinions
on what belongs where.

But, at no point was there anything nearly as malicious as what
everyone else, in the "true out" group, speculated.

The recent incident with ThePHD's keynote downgrade was not racially
motivated, thankfully, but... if that's what it looks like from the
outside, and any form of official communication is still days or
weeks away, does it really make a difference?

I was able to reassure myself, by checking these private discussion
places, that there were good people, fighting for the right thing to
be done. That things weren't irremediably broken. That there was hope
for improvement in the near future.

But what about all the others? Those who only had the rumors, the
sparse official statements, the deleted subreddit threads to go by?

Part of me was very disappointed at ThePrimeagen's content around the
trademark policy, which in my view added fuel to the fire and
resulted in actual harassment (edit: it appears things have improved
since, I'm still catching up)

Part of me was very disappointed in the enormous waste of time that
is the "crablang" fork, and wishes the people involved could have
engaged in a constructive manner instead.

But then, part of me can think of a very simple way to prevent that
from happening again: the Rust project as a whole needs to be better,
and communicate better.

It should be possible to be confident and optimistic about the future
of the Rust project even without having back channels. There's people
several years into research or business endeavors staked on Rust.
They deserve clarity.

Additionally, it should be possible to engage with the Rust project
at the level you choose to.

I have chosen to do Rust education (and, one could argue, evangelism)
and that's what I want to keep doing -- even though it is VERY
tempting to try and get involved with governance matters

(I have seen many follow the "to do X I must first fix Y" thread all
the way into burnout. I won't be doing that.)

I'd be really excited if ThePHD & friends organized a conference, but
it shouldn't be a prerequisite for them to be able to explore and
present research re: compile-time reflection in Rust https://
soasis.org/posts/
a-mirror-for-rust-a-plan-for-generic-compile-time-introspection-in-rust
/

So!

I'm joining the "out group" (or leaving the "in group", depending on
how you look at it).

Rust deserves competent critics, and I intend to do my part, using
only publicly available knowledge from now on.

The state of my "in group" knowledge will soon be obsolete, but as of
today, I can tell you that all the good people who could've left
haven't yet, and that all the people who should've resigned, haven't
yet.

I'll be here, waiting for that to happen. If there's any hope for the
project moving forward, there must be accountability.

@frectonz
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frectonz commented May 28, 2023 *
edited

This was an interesting read, and i agree that what ThePrimeagen and
the crablang folks did was unproductive and exploitative. Anyways
it's nice to read your thoughts on the matter. The only thing i fear
is that people don't get discouraged to try out Rust because of all
the drama and mis-characterizations of Rust's ecosystem. I hope we
(the Rust community) get back on track and get back to making cool
stuff with the language we love.

Btw i hope your recovery after the surgery is going well.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@flipbit03
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flipbit03 commented May 28, 2023

@frectonz Exactly my POV as well. Bummer. Rust is a great language/
ecosystem but all this unneeded drama and smoke and mirrors might
hurt it pretty badly in the long term. It wouldn't be illogical to
see people flocking away from it for not feeling comfortable enough
to invest their precious time and effort into something which is
governed by an unstable foundation.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@EmberHext
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EmberHext commented May 28, 2023

As someone tangentially related to the Crab fork (I haven't committed
any work to it but I am friends with those involved), I feel
confident to say that their intentions with the project were good.
Until 2-3 months ago, I'd never been involved in programming
communities to any real degree, so it's hard for me to say what a
normal or abnormal reaction looks like, but from where I've been
watching things go down the bulk of the reactions so far to these
repeated missteps have seemed at least understandable.

Rust was once something I had an uncomplicated good relationship
with, which is rare among languages or tools for software, and it
sucks to see anything happening that negatively impacts that. I hope
that they can course correct and rebuild the trust that's been lost.
It sucks that I don't know if there's much I personally can do to
impact how things go.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@DerPesky
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DerPesky commented May 28, 2023 *
edited

What specifically are you referring to saying that ThePrimeagen riled
up the masses? Are you saying the fact that he posted his reaction
and thoughts about certain events is milking subs and views? Or is it
something more specific? Kinda unfair to point out a specific person
when at first glance all they did was do just that, unless you're
saying that ThePrimeagen loses his right to give his honest reaction
to events because he his popular. If anything, you're contributing to
the very problem you describe. Instead of suggesting that content
creators have better avenues (without mentioning names), you
specifically called someone out in a public forum. I am sure you
realize that calling a specific person out when it isn't obvious at
all that they're being malicious, contributes heavily to more drama
and less productive discussions. I understand you might be passionate
and you feel Prime's content doesn't aid, but you are being extremely
hypocritical. You are calling for more productive discussions, but
instead of saying "I believe content creators should blah blah blah"
(aka being productive) you are putting further fuel onto the fire.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@Victor-N-Suadicani
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Victor-N-Suadicani commented May 28, 2023

    Up until recently, I was part of two private online discussion
    spaces where a bunch of Rust people hung out.

I find it very problematic that such private discussions even exist
(if they were used for "official"/decision-making communication that
is). Such communication should be in the open.

Would it be possible to adjust an official policy to explicitly
discourage/disallow these kinds of back-channels? For example, it
would be great if the Code of Conduct would explicitly call out
back-channel communication as improper behaviour. I realize that that
would be very difficult to enforce or discover, but it should at
least discourage people from partaking in such private communication
channels.

(I'm not saying all communication should be in the open; there is
certainly some stuff that should be private, some of which the Code
of Conduct already mentions)

Sorry, something went wrong.

@asyncfn
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asyncfn commented May 28, 2023

From my POV crablang is the most selfish try at hijacking a community
that I've ever seen.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@Xiretza
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Xiretza commented May 28, 2023

    Would it be possible to adjust an official policy to explicitly
    discourage/disallow these kinds of back-channels?

The Leadership Council RFC addresses this quite well in my opinion,
it's worth giving at least the summary a read. Whether it will
actually be followed once in effect is another matter entirely, of
course.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@dogue
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dogue commented May 28, 2023

    From my POV crablang is the most selfish try at hijacking a
    community that I've ever seen.

Your POV is incredibly wrong. The intent is very clearly stated on
the homepage.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@asyncfn
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asyncfn commented May 28, 2023 *
edited

        From my POV crablang is the most selfish try at hijacking a
        community that I've ever seen.

    Your POV is incredibly wrong. The intent is very clearly stated
    on the homepage.

Homepage is not important - you can write there anything. What I see
is a childish person who really want to be fameous but has problem
dealing with critique. (I'm saying it about a forker, not you,
contributor)

Sorry, something went wrong.

@dogue
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dogue commented May 28, 2023 *
edited

            From my POV crablang is the most selfish try at hijacking
            a community that I've ever seen.

        Your POV is incredibly wrong. The intent is very clearly
        stated on the homepage.

    Homepage is not important - you can write there anything. What I
    see is a childish person who really want to be fameous but has
    problem dealing with critique. (I'm saying it about a forker, not
    you, contributor)

A misinterpretation of intent on your part does not constitute
"childish" or malicious behavior on the part of someone else.
Regardless, this is really not the proper place for this discussion.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@asyncfn
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asyncfn commented May 28, 2023

                From my POV crablang is the most selfish try at
                hijacking a community that I've ever seen.

            Your POV is incredibly wrong. The intent is very clearly
            stated on the homepage.

        Homepage is not important - you can write there anything.
        What I see is a childish person who really want to be fameous
        but has problem dealing with critique. (I'm saying it about a
        forker, not you, contributor)

    A misinterpretation of intent on your part does not constitute
    "childish" or malicious behavior on the part of someone else.
    Regardless, this is really not the proper place for this
    discussion.

Malicious behavior is trying to exploit problems in community/
language governance in your interests.

You will not create anything good by exploiting problems and dividing
the community.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@LtGlahn
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LtGlahn commented May 28, 2023

    The recent incident with ThePHD's keynote downgrade was not
    racially motivated, thankfully, but...
    if that's what it looks like from the outside, any form of
    official communication is still days or weeks
    away, does it really make a difference?

I am at the outside. I can confirm that this is absolutely what it
looks like. It absolutely so much look like racism that the burden of
proof is now on the Rust people to prove otherwise, as well as take
appropriate actions.

Here's Occam's razor at play: There seems to be some fragments of
information buzzing around that possibly could be constructed into
some complicated timeline that can explain why events turned out the
way the did. But there also is this one extremely simple and straigth
forward explanation that starts with an R. Viewed from the outside
the answer seems obvious.

I truly feel very sorry for all those in the community who aren't a
part of this, or had some part of it, but with the very best
intentions. But I feel infinitely so much more sorry for the
brilliant ThePHD.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@Aloso
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Aloso commented May 28, 2023

    Your POV is incredibly wrong. The intent is very clearly stated
    on the homepage.

Yeah, the homepage clearly says "This was not a "knee-jerk"
reaction". And if the homepage says it, it must be true. /s

They forked Rust because of a draft, a document that is still being
edited. That is almost as silly as their hesitance to use the word
"Rust" on the homepage (although they did not remove it from the
source code). They could have at least contacted the foundation
(which they did not, according to Rebecca Rumbul) before forking the
language.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@redragonx
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redragonx commented May 28, 2023 *
edited

You sound so bitter lol. Grow up and faster than common sense please.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@JoshM-Yoru
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JoshM-Yoru commented May 28, 2023

    What specifically are you referring to saying that ThePrimeagen
    riled up the masses? Are you saying the fact that he posted his
    reaction and thoughts about certain events is milking subs and
    views? Or is it something more specific? Kinda unfair to point
    out a specific person when at first glance all they did was do
    just that, unless you're saying that ThePrimeagen loses his right
    to give his honest reaction to events because he his popular. If
    anything, you're contributing to the very problem you describe.
    Instead of suggesting that content creators have better avenues
    (without mentioning names), you specifically called someone out
    in a public forum. I am sure you realize that calling a specific
    person out when it isn't obvious at all that they're being
    malicious, contributes heavily to more drama and less productive
    discussions. I understand you might be passionate and you feel
    Prime's content doesn't aid, but you are being extremely
    hypocritical. You are calling for more productive discussions,
    but instead of saying "I believe content creators should blah
    blah blah" (aka being productive) you are putting further fuel
    onto the fire.

This was pretty much exactly my thought after reading this. You put
it into words better than I could've.

There really needs to be transparency at a time like this as it
doesn't matter how many good intentions or good people there are if
the way everything is being perceived by the public, or those in the
"out group", is negative. It's not necessarily the content creators
fault for people getting angry or frustrated about something, it's
the people causing the issues in the first place. If there was no
issue, then there wouldn't need to be a reaction from either the
public or content creators. Content creators are just shining lights
on shitty situations caused by others.

Fix the problems before there's nothing to fix anymore.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@asyncfn
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asyncfn commented May 28, 2023

https://twitter.com/OCamlAndrea/status/1662915435988230145

Shitshow by "tech twitter" influencers behind crab lang continues.
Let's heat up atmosphere even more using this gist and calling out
big tech twitter influencer.

You guys behind crab language count only stars, views and subscribers
on your channels.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@nyeogmi
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nyeogmi commented May 28, 2023 *
edited

    It's really more like those 4 or 5 persons.

I don't want anyone to be harassed, but I'm admittedly frustrated
that everyone who comments on this, who knows who the people who are
insistently behaving this way are, finds some excuse not to criticize
those people. It strikes me as incredibly conflict-avoidant to the
point of seeming cowardly: people who take public actions who affect
lots of people should be expected to be culpable for these actions.

Instead, I don't know, you have rabidferret running to Reddit
claiming "well, it's my fault, because when an anonymous person I
refuse to name told me to de-keynotize this person, I didn't object
because I was sure that could somehow end badly for me" and demanding
"demonize me instead of the people who are creating any problem."

There's this obvious credibility vacuum that is being filled by
people who certainly should not be getting harassed and who weirdly
seem to be the same people who got harassed the last time, again for
decisions they did not make.

I do not see how you actually resolve this problem without literally
naming and shaming the people who created the problem.

(I'll also admit I have little sympathy for the principal actors in
this case, because recent Highly Public Act Of Disrespect just seems
flagrantly racist to me in addition to all the other crap, even
though I'm sure that out of respect to The Project no one with any
power will ever publicly analyze it that way.)

You obviously have a list of people in your head who "should have
resigned." Great. You can equivocate about whether they're all bad,
but if that's your ruling, maybe take some action that could
plausibly lead to their resignation?

Sorry, something went wrong.

@nyeogmi
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nyeogmi commented May 28, 2023 *
edited

Additionally, I think JeanHeyd's response should be mirrored from
Mastodon, as it's extremely good:

    @fasterthanlime So, it's deeply inadvisable for me to still be
    reading and talking, especially halfway into PJs and sliding into
    bed, but I will have to say this. I mean this with as much love
    in my heart as I can possibly communicate to you, even though I
    am nowhere near the level of friendship as many others you know,
    including those in that in-group chat you just left.

    Just because they had good intentions does not mean they should
    not face direct accountability.

    Leaning heavily into "If they were well-intentioned, I cannot
    hold them accountable, and it's very regrettable" is not even
    close to how you respect and uphold someone to be a better human
    being. It is not how you make sure your friends hold up properly.
    It is eerily exactly how much of my abusive childhood went, with
    me never naming names and running cover for the people who
    repeatedly screwed up, to a point where they became irredeemable
    and unhelpable.

    If the Rust Project as an organization has people who need to
    resign, then their names should be clearly written out and their
    behavior called to account. If you have some expectation that the
    Rust Project will do it, fine. But if they don't, I want you to
    understand that this post did not help them get there.

Sorry, something went wrong.

@fasterthanlime
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Author

fasterthanlime commented May 28, 2023

(I've edited the Prime mention to more accurately reflect my feelings
-- the edit history is public anyway, so the curious can still see
what it was before.)

Since JeanHeyd's response was posted here, I'll post my response as
well:

    I understand where you're coming from. I can't make this happen
    any faster without causing splash damage to a lot of very good
    and very patient people involved. To be honest this post is more
    about preserving my mental health than anything else. I'm sorry
    it can't be more than that.

I've been the whistleblower in many situations -- this time, it's not
my turn to be. Although I've left the private chat rooms, I don't
want to squander the trust the people who invited me there in the
first place placed in me.

The project has to survive this, the people left after the right
people have resigned need to be able to work with each other and
trust each other, still.

Sorry, something went wrong.

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