https://forums.puri.sm/t/has-purism-refunded-you-is-purism-going-insolvent/18953?page=6

Purism community

Has Purism refunded you? Is Purism going insolvent?

Librem Phones (Librem 5)
Vertebra May 13, 2023, 7:33am #102

While we wait on news on the E5 batch production. Purism is now
shipping Q1 2020 orders and will soon announce investor-funded laptop
and tablet products.

The reports of Purism's insolvency are greatly exaggerated.

3 Likes
janek May 13, 2023, 8:19am #103

My case is similar: I've ordered Librem 5 over 4 years ago and
finally I got it on February. After couple of checks, I decided to
return it as for me it's on too early stage of development. I got
information from Purism that they need max 3-4 weeks after receiving
phone to check it and return my money. What was quite surprising for
me they return only 90% of the price. Now I'm waiting over 8 weeks
and I have no information from Purism despite it is in finance
department and they don't know when it will be processed. I see that
there are people who are waiting over 1 year... that's unbelievable
:confused:

1 Like
Vertebra May 13, 2023, 8:56am #104
# janek:


    I got information from Purism that they need max 3-4 weeks after
    receiving phone to check it and return my money. What was quite
    surprising for me they return only 90% of the price

This shouldn't be a surprise. The return policy is 90% for used
products.

cbl May 13, 2023, 10:22am #105
# Vertebra:


    The reports of Purism's insolvency are greatly exaggerated.

If they do have the money for refunds at hand, why do they violate
their refund policies and FTC rules? Are they just immoral and rather
keep the money for themselves for as long as they can (e.g. to invest
it)? To me that's even worse, because if they were on the edge of (or
well within) insolvency I could at least somehow understand their
situation and why they'd risk large fines by the FTC - after all the
company is at stake.

1 Like
Vertebra May 13, 2023, 11:27am #106
# cbl:


    If they do have the money for refunds at hand, why do they
    allegedly violate their refund policies and FTC rules?

Federal rules prevailing consumer protection rules. You can't pay out
old obligations with new obligations. Obviously Purism can't do that.

I think it is important to understand that Purism intent to meet all
their obligations when legally and financially possible. Purism never
denied any refunds or shipments. In my opinion their current actions
are the most fair and least risky approach to meet those intentions.

The easy way out would be FIFO refunds until bankruptcy back during
the early COVID days. Purism decided to stay in the long game and
ship all phones and honor all refunds. Such commitment is rare.

1 Like
cbl May 13, 2023, 12:20pm #107
# Vertebra:


    Federal rules prevailing consumer protection rules. You can't pay
    out old obligations with new obligations. Obviously Purism can't
    do that.

Of course not. If you can't meet your obligations you're insolvent.
Which you said is an exaggeration.

# Vertebra:


    I think it is important to understand that Purism intent to meet
    all their obligations when legally and financially possible .

That's irrelevant. If I sold you a trip to the moon within the next
year for 1 million bucks (with an option for a refund if I can't
provide it in time) and later found out that I can't do that because
I'm shitty at math and doing business, it's completely irrelevant
that I actually intended to get you to the moon when "legally and
financially possible". You're either entitled to get your money back
or to get a trip to the moon.

# Vertebra:


    Purism never denied any refunds or shipments. I

Refunds must be provided within a reasonable amount of time. The FTC
says "seven working days". By your logic I could delay your refund
for your trip to the moon for as long as I wanted, and that be fine,
because I "never denied" it.

    Purism decided to stay in the long game and ship all phones and
    honor all refunds. Such commitment is rare.

Such commitment is rare because it's illegal in most places. My moon
trip business is also going to play the long game and you'll
eventually get your trip or money back, if only I can find some
inventors or sell more trips to the moon.

1 Like
Vertebra May 13, 2023, 1:12pm #108
# cbl:


    ... Moon trip ...

We are done here. See you in a few months time as Purism intent to
meet all obligations actually happens.

cbl May 13, 2023, 1:33pm #109

If you don't want to argue fine, then say so. But don't pretend that
using a hyperbole is what made my argument invalid.

janek May 13, 2023, 2:38pm #110
# Vertebra:


    This shouldn't be a surprise. The return policy is 90% for used
    products.

That's the least significant part of my post... I just wrote it as in
my country, if you return the product in unused condition within
specified period of time (which was the case here), you get all money
back. That was the reason why it's surprising for me but I understand
USA has different law.
The key point is that it seems that Purism didn't tell the truth when
they were saying that they will return my money within max 3-4 weeks
(I got message with such info from them). At the same time they
didn't return money to other people for much longer.

1 Like
tracy May 14, 2023, 9:05am #111

To play the really long game your biz can wait until the customers
are dead, then you only have to launch the weight of their ashes.

2 Likes
Vertebra May 16, 2023, 10:24pm #112

While we wait on news on the E5 batch production. Purism is now
shipping Q2 2020 orders and lead time on new Librem 5 orders is
reduced to 20 weeks.

2 Likes
ShimmeringLight May 16, 2023, 10:39pm #113

Grateful if you could update us when you get your refund. Others
messaged me that they have been waiting for some years! I find it
incredible. They take the phone back but then do not return the
money...

1 Like
ShimmeringLight May 16, 2023, 10:41pm #114

Thank you CBL for rebuffing Vertrebra's constant case to defend the
indefensible.

Vertebra May 16, 2023, 10:51pm #115

I do not condone holding back refunds. What matters to me is the
intent to refund and a rational estimate on refund.

1 Like
irvinewade May 16, 2023, 10:58pm #116
# Vertebra:


    Purism is now shipping Q2 2020 orders and lead time on new Librem
    5 orders is reduced to 20 weeks

(nice pick up on the Librem 5 lead time change - I didn't see an
announcement of that)

Not to mention the partially announced Librem 11 tablet and the
Librem 16 laptop.

It seems increasingly likely that this topic title is defamatory
rubbish.

3 Likes
Vertebra May 16, 2023, 11:15pm #117
# irvinewade:


    It seems increasingly likely that this topic title is defamatory
    rubbish.

Yes. Seems like it should be moved to Round Table. It's really not
about phones anyway.

ShimmeringLight May 16, 2023, 11:40pm #118

Are you guys some Purism bots? Grateful if you could rather spend
your energy and getting us the refunds paid out?

It is abusive to refer to genuine concerns about refunds "as
defamatory" or "rubbish".

1 Like
irvinewade May 17, 2023, 12:30am #119
# ShimmeringLight:


    It is abusive to refer to genuine concerns about refunds "as
    defamatory" or "rubbish".

Please be clear on what I wrote ... this topic title is defamatory
rubbish.

(emphasis added this time)

It's your topic. You can fix the title. Or not.

OpojOJirYAlG May 18, 2023, 12:34pm #120
# irvinewade:


    this topic title is defamatory rubbish.

The title is a question. I've not known any question to be defamatory
nor, demonstrably true nor false... also many businesses have released
new products days before bankruptcy, releasing new products is not a
sign of profitability nor solvency.

Privacy2 May 18, 2023, 4:29pm #121
# irvinewade:


    Please be clear on what I wrote ... this topic title is defamatory
    rubbish.

A question is almost never defamatory. I think that I already gave
you a link to US Court rulings on this [see below]. However, you seem
immune to information that you wish to ignore.

IMO, given Purism's history as documented on these forums ( Estimate
your Librem 5 refund  ) of not providing timely refunds, violating
the FTC Mail Order Rule, and/or honoring their refund policy, it is a
good question.

[Edit: I think it was you, but I can't find where we discussed this.
The link I gave was here https://www.lexology.com/library/
detail.aspx?g=f00eb73f-40a8-4bd1-b522-5e112d23264c which contained
the following example which is even worse since what the judge dealt
with was an defamatory assertion with a question mark tacked on.

    "Were it not for the question mark at the end of the text, this
    would be an easy case," the court said. "Woods phrased his tweet
    in an uncommon syntactical structure for a question in English by
    making what would otherwise be a declarative statement and
    placing a question mark at the end. Delete the question mark, and
    the reader is left with an unambiguous statement of fact:
    "So-called #Trump 'Nazi' is a #BernieSanders agitator/operative."

    But the question mark cannot be ignored, Judge Smith found. "The
    vast majority of courts to consider questions as potential
    defamatory statements have found them not to be assertions of
    fact," he wrote. "Rather, a question indicates a defendant's
    'lack of definitive knowledge about the issue' and 'invites the
    reader to consider' various possibilities."

]

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