https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/396553/what-is-this-famous-example-of-the-absurdity-of-english-spelling Stack Exchange Network Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. Visit Stack Exchange [ ] Loading... 1. + Tour Start here for a quick overview of the site + Help Center Detailed answers to any questions you might have + Meta Discuss the workings and policies of this site + About Us Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. 2. 3. current community + English Language & Usage help chat + English Language & Usage Meta your communities Sign up or log in to customize your list. more stack exchange communities company blog 4. 5. Log in 6. Sign up English Language & Usage Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for linguists, etymologists, and serious English language enthusiasts. It only takes a minute to sign up. Sign up to join this community [ano] Anybody can ask a question [ano] Anybody can answer [an] The best answers are voted up and rise to the top English Language & Usage 1. Home 2. 1. Public 2. Questions 3. Tags 4. Users 5. Unanswered 3. Teams Stack Overflow for Teams - Start collaborating and sharing organizational knowledge. [teams-illo-free-si] Create a free Team Why Teams? 4. Teams 5. Create free Team Teams Q&A for work Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. Learn more about Teams What is this famous example of the absurdity of English spelling? Ask Question Asked 5 years, 9 months ago Modified today Viewed 25k times 65 Locked. Comments on this question have been disabled, but it is still accepting new answers and other interactions. Learn more. A long time ago I read about this funny example posited by some relatively well-known author who spelled a word (I forget the word) in the most difficult way possible, but in a way that was totally congruent with orthographic rules from other words of English. It was a simple word, like "fish" but he spelled it like "phystch" or something similarly absurd. It's a pedantic example, but sort of funny, too. Thanks * orthography * pronunciation-vs-spelling * spelling-pronunciations Share Improve this question Follow asked Jun 30, 2017 at 10:24 Teusz's user avatar TeuszTeusz 79911 gold badge55 silver badges77 bronze badges 1 * Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. - tchrist Aug 25, 2021 at 18:41 Comments disabled on deleted / locked posts / reviews | 4 Answers 4 Sorted by: Reset to default [Highest score (default) ] 125 Ghoti (/fIS/) This fallacy arises from the incorrect application of the rules linking orthography to phonology^1, resulting in an argument that ' ghoti' should be pronounced similarly to 'fish': gh, pronounced [f] as in enough [I'n^f] or tough [t^f]; o, pronounced [I] as in women ['wImIn]; and ti, pronounced [S] as in nation ['neIS@n] or motion ['m@US@n]. [This is not a definitive list.] --------------------------------------------------------------------- Key to the phenomenon is that the pronunciations of the constructed word's three parts are inconsistent with how they would be pronounced in those placements. To illustrate: gh can only resemble f when following the letters ou / au at the end of certain morphemes ("cough", "laugh"), while ti can only resemble sh when followed by the letters -on / -al ("confidential", "spatial") etc. Also of interest is that at the time (around mid-1800s) many persons were intrigued with the 'Phonotypy and Phonography' of English, with Alexander J. Ellis presenting a number of absurd respellings, like turning scissors into 'schiesourrhce' by combining parts of schism, s ieve, as, honour, myrrh and sacrifice. (Sacrifice was historically pronounced with a [z]) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Source: Wikipedia, NY Times ^1 Thanks to Azor-Ahai for confirming this. I originally thought it was an error with phonemes. Share Improve this answer Follow edited Jun 15, 2020 at 7:40 Community's user avatar CommunityBot 1 answered Jun 30, 2017 at 11:00 marcellothearcane's user avatar marcellothearcanemarcellothearcane 7,64166 gold badges3636 silver badges5656 bronze badges 9 * 29 I think it's worth emphasising the erroneous part. It is simply not the case that you could spell fish this way since the use of these letters to represent these sounds is contextual and they would never, ever be pronounced this way in the given context. - Jack Aidley Jun 30, 2017 at 14:27 * 1 @PeterShaw - I'm just quoting the original. (Which wasn't George Bernard Shaw, it's first appearance was in 1855 in a letter) - marcellothearcane Jun 30, 2017 at 16:50 * 3 Is it unusual that I pronounce the ti in "confidential" like ch, not sh? - Todd Wilcox Jun 30, 2017 at 19:01 * 3 @ToddWilcox no, that's extremely common in America. - Jasmine Jun 30, 2017 at 20:46 * 1 This isn't strictly about the pronunciation of phonemes, all the phonemes in /fIS/ are being pronounced as usual, rather this has to do with an incorrect application of the rules linking orthography to phonology. - Azor Ahai -him- Jun 30, 2017 at 21:05 | Show 4 more comments 41 Another is ghoughphtheightteeau, which is pronounced potato. Spacing it out: gh ough phth eigh tte eau * gh for P as in Hiccough * ough for O as in Dough * phth for T as in Phthisis * eigh for A as in Neighbour * tte for T as in Gazette * eau for O as in Plateau Source: Internet Archive: www.etni.org.il/farside/potato.htm Share Improve this answer Follow edited 4 hours ago KillingTime's user avatar KillingTime 5,9205959 gold badges3333 silver badges3939 bronze badges answered Jun 30, 2017 at 19:55 Aerom Xundes's user avatar Aerom XundesAerom Xundes 51133 silver badges33 bronze badges 8 * 6 I'm somewhat more wary of this one since I have never heard of "gh" being pronounced as "p" under any circumstances. I suppose it happens, since English is so weird and varied, but it kind of strains the bounds of credibility. ("hiccup" is how I've always known the word to be spelled when pronounced that way) - David Z Jul 1, 2017 at 0:00 * 5 @DavidZ - It's an old Britishism. - WhatRoughBeast Jul 1, 2017 at 3:04 * 1 Phth isn't pronounced 't' in Phthisis, it's pronounced 'th'. - marcellothearcane Jul 1, 2017 at 9:00 * @marcellothearcane Is there a reason why there is no /f/ in Phthisis? It being a technical term, I would have expected that those using it won't have difficulties with the "full" pronounciation ...?! - Hagen von Eitzen Jul 2, 2017 at 12:37 * @HagenvonEitzen No idea, I wouldn't have thought it was an issue of difficulty, rather that's just how the language and words evolved (for example how did 'ph' become f in the first place? - marcellothearcane Jul 2, 2017 at 13:02 | Show 3 more comments 17 "Ghoti" is typically attributed to George Bernard Shaw, the 'relatively well known author' (I am sure he would have objected to the "relatively"!). Wikipedia says: The first confirmed use of the word is in a letter from Charles Ollier to Leigh Hunt. On the third page of that letter, dated 11 December 1855, Ollier explains, "My Son William has hit upon a new method of spelling 'Fish'." Ollier then demonstrates that "Ghoti is Fish. An early known published reference dates to 1874, citing the above letter. The letter credits ghoti to William Ollier Jr. (born 1824). Ghoti is often cited to support the English spelling reform, and is often attributed to George Bernard Shaw, a supporter of this cause. However, the word does not appear in Shaw's writings, and a biography of Shaw attributes it instead to an anonymous spelling reformer. Share Improve this answer Follow edited Jun 30, 2017 at 22:01 ab2's user avatar ab2 26.2k1313 gold badges6868 silver badges102102 bronze badges answered Jun 30, 2017 at 14:33 user243356's user avatar user243356user243356 17922 bronze badges 7 * 5 Some links would be nice. And not just to untrustworthy wikipedia. - Arm the good guys in America Jun 30, 2017 at 14:37 * 22 @Clare: Strange, you don't seem to object to the use of "untrustworthy" Wikipedia in the accepted answer. - DarkDust Jun 30, 2017 at 15:17 * 9 @Clare: And why is Wikipedia less trustworthy than any other internet source? - jamesqf Jun 30, 2017 at 17:17 * 9 @alephzero: And anyone who wants to can put up a web site touting their crank theory-du-jour. The difference is that if something is on Wikipedia, it is likely to be noticed and eventually corrected, while the crank theory website is owned and modifiable only by the crank. - jamesqf Jun 30, 2017 at 19:22 * 6 @alephzero Wikipedia pages that are involved in edit wars or constantly being vandalized do not become definitive reference sources. Also, if you actually read the Wikipedia reference you will find the original, actual references from which the information was derived. If you doubt the information, simply check the references yourself. Not that anyone ever does, because we're all far too lazy and self-righteous to actually do such a thing. - barbecue Jun 30, 2017 at 22:11 | Show 2 more comments 2 Another absurdity I came across is ceougholo. And it means SHOWER. * ce = sh as in "ocean" * ough = ow as in "bough" * olo = er as in "colonel" Sure it is weird but it is what the question is asking about. "Ce" does not give the sh sound at the beginning of a word, and "olo" only gives the er in "colonel". If we look at the "ghoti", gh never gives f sound at the beginning and ti never gives sh at the end. So both of these are just the examples of absurdities of English spelling. Share Improve this answer Follow answered Oct 21, 2020 at 9:36 user387044user387044 Add a comment | Highly active question. Earn 10 reputation (not counting the association bonus) in order to answer this question. The reputation requirement helps protect this question from spam and non-answer activity. Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged * orthography * pronunciation-vs-spelling * spelling-pronunciations or ask your own question. Related 45 Does the quirky spelling in English actually make it easier to read? 7 Alphabetizing List of Mixed Words and Acronyms 0 Can we say that the words whose spelling is much contrary to the spelling rules get gradually expelled from English? 2 Double Consonants in Gerund 21 What's the current scholarly opinion on the "minims" explanation for the spelling of "love", "tongue," etc? 4 How should I spell this made up word that's a combination of "squeeze" and "snuggle"? 10 Why doesn't English spelling vary with region that much? 0 What is the correct spelling for 'finash'/'feenash'/'phinash'/ 'pheenash'? 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