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(/calendar/tasks/ contacts) Welcome to Reddit, the front page of the internet. Become a Redditor and join one of thousands of communities. x 405 406 407 I'm done with Standard Notes: Why I'm abandoning Standard Notes ( self.selfhosted) submitted 12 hours ago * by TheQuantumPhysicist[gold_48] Standard Notes is a good note-taking software. However, I've been facing issues with it and I'd like to share them because these issues wasted enough of my time, and this is the ethos of this sub. Maybe I'm wrong; make what you will out of this :-) * The straw that broke that back - The introduced paid subscription for self-hosted users (money isn't the problem, really): After having introduced their "paid subscription" for the self-hosted plan (yes, you heard that right, you have to pay for self-hosted now, and it won't work anymore without a key, so you're locked out), it's become impossible to rely on the software. They were nice enough to offer me a "free key", which they offer for free to those who had been using the software before they introduced self-hosted subscription (or if you write them an unbiased review, as per their words)... well, good luck getting it. Because their email server is listed as spam by many spam lists services for some reason, I simply couldn't receive that email after more than a week... and hence... * Your notes are not yours anymore: Since they introduced the subscription, this made me realize how little control I have over my notes. You have no control over your notes almost at all. Because I failed in activating my notes software, I failed to have any control over my notes for over a week. All their "special note types", like checklists (which are a given in markdown-based note-taking) stopped working (even though I'm hosting the extensions myself on my server). I can't fix typos. I can't update any notes. Everything fell apart! I can't take formatted notes anymore. Basically my notes are not mine, even though I'm hosting them, because the software that opens them is not free. It's licensed and I need to have the proper license to use it (or rebuild the code myself and remove that), which brings me to the next point * Proprietary solutions for everything: For some reason everything in Standard Notes is proprietary yet open-source at the same time. All solutions are reinventions of the same solutions to problems that have been already solved. Your note-taking software is basically a plain-text-editor. Then, anything more you need to do is a proprietary add-on. You wanna make a checklist? Proprietary extension. You wanna have some code highlighting? Proprietary. You wanna use markdown? Proprietary. Take a look at their "Super notes". They look like wonderful markdown notes! But it's all proprietary nonsensical json underneath that doesn't work anywhere else. You type markdown, but it's saved as json. You can't even change the pre-formatted code-block types natively because... it's not really markdown. You can't export your notes because they're not markdown (except one by one by hand in the app, which offers markdown format), and if you can export them, they won't work out of the box, because everything is proprietary, so you have to write your own json parser (which doesn't exist out there as of the time of writing this for Super Notes). You want to upload files? File uploads work with proprietary solutions, either with FileSafe (which you need a separate WebDAV server for, just for the files, in addition to everything else) or their own internal (new) file upload system, which isn't inherently compatible with anything related to the notes, so it's totally separate. Even worse, because of the bad design around all this, even if you have notes that are "protected" (need password for access, hence highly secret), that protection doesn't really apply to the files attached to the note, and you can see the files in a separate list! Everything is proprietary and once anything goes out of the plan (subscription problem, etc), everything breaks, and all your work stops, no more note-taking, or even edits. * The self-hosted server is complex: It seems that they adapted the server solution of their users to self-hosted. Basically, the easiest way to think about this is how Bitwarden is to Vaultwarden. Bitwarden is a huge, sophisticated solution that consumes lots of memory and resources because it's built for huge infrastructures. Standard Notes backend is quite the same. It has two SQL databases (which they promised to reduce to one)... it has a caching server, API gateway, file server, web server, authentication, and other things. I think there's more than 10 services running in their docker containers. That's not bad by itself... but it's a huge burden to maintain all that and to get it to work. And then because of this, the maintenance of this huge infrastructure makes the cost of maintaining it bigger, leading to "needing to fund this" by making the self-hosted service a paid-subscription... How many of you host notes for more than 500 people to require this amount of scaling? Or even 5 people, to need all this infrastructure? Just like Vaultwarden... a simple executable with a database and authentication is more than enough and is even fast enough. After all, the syncing server is a glorified WebDAV server. * Bonus: Fragmentation. While I was suffering and exporting my data from Standard Notes to Joplin, I simply failed to download the only one file I had uploaded with the new files system (that I've been explaining to people how to use). Why? I've got no idea. This is the problem I mentioned before about proprietary solutions combined with server complexity in action. But you see, the notes are separate from files in every way, so you could have notes working for weeks, but then files fail some time earlier for some reason, and you'll never notice until you're in the middle of your work, and you need the data, and you never get it... better stop working and start debugging. Now I have to dig to see what's going on with that thing. Wish me luck. (Update: I failed. Luckily I was able to retrieve that file from a backup). But does it mean Standard Notes is bad? Absolutely not. It's very nice in its own way, for absolute beginners who don't care about self-hosting (in my opinion), which is why I thought this whole self-hosted subscription is bad. But from all I mentioned above, it has close to zero interoperability or upgradability or compatibility with existing solutions and is fully proprietary in everything it does. I'm prepared to sacrifice the niceties in it to have a piece of mind that I will be able to export my notes to simple markdowns by using something like Joplin... and I'll be able to run a simple server that doesn't use tons of services just to host less users than a single-hand finger-count. I'm also sacrificing having encrypted notes locally. I basically split my notes into those that need to be secret, and I used other tools to write them down, and those that need to be flexible, and I'm using Joplin for that. And if you're the Standard Notes staff reading this, I'm sorry. I tried really hard to stay. But I can't hand my data control to the whims of your volatile decisions and proprietary solutions, because the value of data is in its accessibility; that's the ethos of self-hosting things. And I'll say that I donated and was happy to donate before the fiasco of locking me out of the software capabilities as if I'm using Microsoft Windows. Hope these issues get addresses some day in the future. All the best. * 93 comments * share * save * hide * report all 93 comments sorted by: best topnewcontroversialoldrandomq&alive (beta) [ ] Want to add to the discussion? Post a comment! Create an account [-]lividhedgehog 129 points130 points131 points 10 hours ago (5 children) This is excellent and detailed. Good for anyone thinking of trying out self-hosted Standard Notes. I was looking at Standard Notes as a self-hosted solution and couldn't see how it's possible to have 100% ownership of my notes. This helps explain. (I've eventually ended up using Obsidian with the Remotely Save plugin and using WebDAV to sync between devices. So far, it's worked remarkably well.) * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]jakegh 9 points10 points11 points 7 hours ago* (0 children) I did the same thing. I don't care about having my notes visible to my authenticated user, because I'm the one reading them in the first place. They are of course encrypted via full-disk encryption anyway. For those not familiar, the Remotely Save Obsidian plugin supports end-to-end encryption, so you can sync your notes to dropbox, etc, if you prefer. Obsidian is really nice, too, although I'm only using like 4% of its functionality so far. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]i_hate_shitposting 9 points10 points11 points 5 hours ago* (2 children) +1 for Obsidian. I avoided trying it for a long time because it's not open source, but I just switched to it from Joplin because, ironically, I feel like I own my notes more with Obsidian than with Joplin or most of the other open source options I've tried. With Joplin, I have to edit my notes in Joplin. If I wanted to write a script to work with my notes, I would have to use Joplin's bespoke APIs. I could try to figure out the database structure or the sync directory format and make changes there myself, but Joplin explicitly does not support this. No matter what I do, I'm functionally locked into a Joplin-specific solution. The same goes for any other offering with a bespoke database structure or file format. On the other hand, my Obsidian vault is just a bunch of Markdown files. I can edit them with whatever tool I want. If I wanted to quit using Obsidian, I could open my vault in any Markdown-supported editor and the only thing I would be missing (in terms of content) is nice rendering of some of its custom Markdown extensions. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]ilritorno 0 points1 point2 points 1 hour ago (1 child) As a Joplin user I'd point out that you are always one click away to bulk export your notes in a variety of formats (pdf, html, markdown) and use it however you wish. For instance you could export your markdown notes to Typora or Obsidian. I like to read in Typora from time to time and it's a breeze to do that, starting from a Joplin database. Sure you have the edit Joplin's database in Joplin, but you are hardly locked in. If you are an Obsidian user, don't you edit your notes in Obsidian? Note-taking can be very simple and very complex at once, with a dizzying array of different user needs. Before deciding to migrate to Joplin a couple years ago I've explored dozens of note-taking apps. Personally I came to the conclusion that there is no perfect app, especially if you want to use only one app. If a user would accept using different apps for what they do best, it would be probably preferable to use a combination of apps, but that would create a confusing fragmentation of your notes. In my case I preferred simplicity, a good search functionality, and the ability to bulk export notes. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]i_hate_shitposting 0 points1 point2 points 2 minutes ago (0 children) As a Joplin user I'd point out that you are always one click away to bulk export your notes in a variety of formats (pdf, html, markdown) and use it however you wish. Bulk export is manual, so it doesn't solve the problem of scripting. I want to be able to go to my terminal, type in ./list_tasks.sh, and have it work without extra steps. Also, Joplin's export is functionally one-way: if I export all my notes and modify them in bulk, I can't just merge those changes into my Joplin profile. Importing them back into Joplin generates duplicates of all my folders and notes, making it inconvenient for my purposes. Sure you have the edit Joplin's database in Joplin, but you are hardly locked in. If you are an Obsidian user, don't you edit your notes in Obsidian? But that's my entire point. With Obsidian, I can edit my notes in Obsidian and still do whatever I want with them using the same tools I'd use for any other files. With Joplin, I always have to do some kind of extra Joplin-specific work to use my notes however I want. By definition, that's a kind of lock-in. It may not be as bad as some more proprietary solutions, but it's still an extra obstacle that Obsidian doesn't have. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]Pressure-Emergency 43 points44 points45 points 9 hours ago (2 children) Another former SN selfhoster here. Great and well detailed post. I used their solution for roughly 6 months. Despite the amount of RAM the several docker containers consumed and the fact that they would introduce a breaking change that is not-so-obvious to fix once every month, I liked where their app UX/UI was going so I really tried to keep it. The day they announced their subscription for self-hosters I realized the balance has tipped too far. The hassle, resources and now money needed to keep it far outweight any benefits. I too have moved to Obsidian with Remotely Sync plug-in and it's been working great. Added bonus that having the files in plain text in my home server has allowed me to use bash to find and make bulk formatting fixes. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]fbartels 7 points8 points9 points 9 hours ago* (1 child) Yes, i feel similar. I have been using their stack for quite a while until one day the apps were updated and no longer wanted to connect with my self hosted install (of their old ruby stack). Instead of looking to upgrade my backend i instead migrated my notes to another system, if they disregard self hosted once (by not informing about breaking changes) i was sure they would do it again in the future. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]TheQuantumPhysicist[S] 10 points11 points12 points 8 hours ago (0 children) This is actually one point I forgot to add. The breaking upgrades... my god that drove me nuts! Every time you run ./server update you potentially get new things to do. They keep adding new configuration settings, and every time they do that I have to attend to the server and configure them. This... instead of having configuration done in a proper configuration format that supports default settings, and hence backwards compatibility. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]suddenlypenguins 27 points28 points29 points 9 hours ago (7 children) I use Trilium and I love it. https://github.com/zadam/trilium * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]zim1985 12 points13 points14 points 7 hours ago (5 children) I second Trillium. Dead simple to host. Easy to sync across multiple clients. Easy mobile app to create new notes. Super flexible with scripted additional functionality (I've recreated GoodReads and some other organizational functionality with my own scripts). Had it running for about two years now and haven't looked back. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]D0T1X 2 points3 points4 points 5 hours ago (2 children) Easy mobile app to create new notes Iirc, Trillium only has a webapp and desktop apps. Or am i missing something here? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]zim1985 2 points3 points4 points 4 hours ago (0 children) There's a sender app for Android that is a bare bones interface to adding notes. Far from perfect but especially when I just need to dump something from my brain real quick it's great. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]me109e 2 points3 points4 points 4 hours ago (0 children) I wrapped the URL in a app and run that.. works well * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]heserosfer 0 points1 point2 points 3 hours ago (1 child) Do you use the web clipper? If so how well does it clip full web pages? This is the one area that almost all note taking apps seem to really struggle with. Thanks! * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]zim1985 0 points1 point2 points 3 hours ago (0 children) That might be a feature I don't even know about! Sorry I don't have any experience with it to speak to! * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]zladuric 0 points1 point2 points 37 minutes ago (0 children) Is it flat-file or proprietary? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]theSlashyy 24 points25 points26 points 7 hours ago (5 children) Joplin with WebDAV Sync all the way. Works here for years * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]noahhefner 4 points5 points6 points 6 hours ago (1 child) I love Joplin as well! * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]Commercial_Count_584 1 point2 points3 points 6 hours ago (0 children) I just installed joplin the other day. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]h00tahs 2 points3 points4 points 2 hours ago (1 child) I recently moved over to Joplin server from WebDAV. Its amazingly quick and easy to setup. Alternative if you are only using WebDAV for Joplin. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]theSlashyy 0 points1 point2 points 1 hour ago (0 children) Oh Great, didnt know this was a thing. Will give it a try * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]lost-moments 0 points1 point2 points 49 minutes ago (0 children) This is the way. Simple and sweet. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]pintasm 14 points15 points16 points 10 hours ago (2 children) I also gave up on Standard Notes. Wiznotes may be the solution for you, and it works really well. Notesnook is also working on a self hosted solution. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]techsmex404 1 point2 points3 points 5 hours ago (1 child) Literally was scanning comments to see if Notesnook had been brought up. If I am not mistaken their self-hosted solution was expected to drop Q1 of 2023 too so potentially just around the corner. I switched from SN to Obsidian and fell in love with it. Notesnook is the first app to draw my attention away in quite some time. I have a hard time separating from the customization Obsidian offers as well as the notes graph. However if Notesnook makes their full feature-set hostable (including their beta version of Reminders) I simply won't be able to turn a blind eye to that functionality. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]pintasm 0 points1 point2 points 4 hours ago (0 children) Exactly. I've been using Wiznotes successfully so far. The reminders are a bit quirky, but it does the job. The integration is top notch. Mobile apps, the floating windows menu to add notes and screenshots, the Outlook button... I think it offers more than necessary, but i strongly suggest it because there's nothing selfhosted that comes close to it, and it's pretty intuitive. But i'm a bit anxious to self-host Notesnook to be honest. Every other day i go and check out if it's available. Btw, i love obsidian, but i wish it was self-hosted. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]panjadotme 10 points11 points12 points 6 hours ago (0 children) Dang, it wasn't the NINETY DOLLARS a year to take notes? * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]ithakaa 22 points23 points24 points 11 hours ago (8 children) I use logseq as my daily journal and outline as my wiki https://github.com/outline/outline https://github.com/logseq/logseq * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]hirotakatech00 2 points3 points4 points 9 hours ago (2 children) Logseq is not self-hostable or is it? Edit: typo * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]scgreg 1 point2 points3 points 8 hours ago (0 children) yeah, looks like SaaS? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]ithakaa -5 points-4 points-3 points 9 hours ago (0 children) There is a web version * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]natriusaut 1 point2 points3 points 10 hours ago (0 children) Yeah, using Logseq as well. Syncing with Nextcloud for destops and for android smartphone with Syncthing. But, if you are a backer it has an included sync as well. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]mbrochh 2 points3 points4 points 9 hours ago (0 children) but logseq notes don't offer strong encryption, right? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]indie_freak 2 points3 points4 points 7 hours ago (0 children) Can you share some guide(s) to self host Outline? Since it needs Google/Slack account I've not had any luck self hosting it but I'd really want to! I'll be the sole user of it so just need some local auth and was surprised that Outline doesn't support email/password login. Thanks. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]greenknight 0 points1 point2 points 9 hours ago (0 children) just started with logseq this week. good stuff. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]PyramidClub 0 points1 point2 points 9 hours ago (0 children) That looks like exactly what i'm looking for. It's a shame the license is so restrictive. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]azurroel 35 points36 points37 points 10 hours ago (3 children) I've been using Obsidian for local note taking, and although it's not FOSS it's been a fantastic tool, and if you sift through the community plugins most of them try to keep the interoperability of the markdown notes intact as a principle,(also a large part is community-made). I'd suggest you take a look (logseq is another great one), since their business model focuses on syncing exclusively and there are a million ways to sync the markdown files separately both inside and outside the software. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]nagelxz 10 points11 points12 points 9 hours ago (1 child) I kinda agree with Obsidian. I haven't dealt with any of their features like back links and I just sync with hit instead. For me, I like that it's quite lightweight by default, the notes are just markdown (I know the bare minimum for formatting) and folders for organization. I'll have to check logseq one day. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]sprayfoamparty 1 point2 points3 points 6 hours ago (0 children) Was looking at logseq the other day. Their FAQ indicates their server is closed source and will remain so. However you can use other sync options if you wish. I am not sure the details of what the server is doing. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]pkulak 4 points5 points6 points 7 hours ago (0 children) I switched to Obsidian, with the Vim plugin, and it's great. Best part is that most of the time I don't even use it, and just open the files on the terminal. I'm actually starting to think that a shared folder full of text files is the best knowledge base. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]snake785 10 points11 points12 points 9 hours ago (3 children) Many of the reasons you pointed out are why I gravitate towards emacs + org-mode for my note taking. All of my notes are simple text files, not dependent on any external tool. Emacs (and orgzly on my phone) are used for prettier output and make it easy to manipulate my notes. To sync, I use Nextcloud/webdav. If I need to encrypt a note, I just use gpg to encrypt the file itself. Emacs can handle the encryption/ decryption seamlessly as well. If these tools go the subscription route (which would be highly doubtful for emacs at least), I can still read and search through my notes since they are just text files. I understand that developers need to eat, but it still isn't great from a user's perspective when this sort of thing happens. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]SunkenCrayon 3 points4 points5 points 8 hours ago (2 children) I use something similar too - I edit all my notes using vim and sync them via syncthing. They are all markdown notes, so I can view them on my phone too, with a Markdown Editor. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]spicybenis 0 points1 point2 points 4 hours ago (1 child) What app on the phone? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]SunkenCrayon 1 point2 points3 points 3 hours ago (0 children) MardownPreview, it's on F-droid * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]linuxtek_canada 4 points5 points6 points 5 hours ago (0 children) Thanks for all the detail on your concerns. Glad I never went this way. I'll check out Joplin - I've heard a few other people recommend it. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]billFoldDog 9 points10 points11 points 6 hours ago (0 children) TLDR: Proprietary software, for-profit companies, always a short term arrangement. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]vayiku 2 points3 points4 points 8 hours ago (0 children) Point 3 is a little concerning. The rest of the problems seem to be that they're not specifically building standard notes to be self-hostable. They're just asking you to host it like they do which probably does not work for a "homelab" situation for a service that is sufficiently complex. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]CatastrophicLeaker 2 points3 points4 points 3 hours ago (0 children) Im so confused, i couldnt write a note earlier and it gave me an error about a subscription. Needed to write an important code down. Yeah im done. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]shittyfuckdick 2 points3 points4 points 1 hour ago (0 children) Standard used to be solid for a free note taking app. I hate the new direction they've taken it though. They got too greedy Also from a community standpoint they broke so many third party extensions over the years people just stopped making them. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]petalised 9 points10 points11 points 10 hours ago (8 children) Note that Joplin stores your files in a DB as well. I wouldn't recommend it because of this. And when you export it - it's a bunch of gibberish filenames, so you have to do some manual work as well. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]scottjl 5 points6 points7 points 7 hours ago (0 children) yep and this is exactly why i gave up on joplin. i want a format i can actually walk away from easily some day because nothing (apps) last forever. i type up text notes, if they aren't stored in text format, with easy to decipher file names, forget it. left evernote for joplin, after a few months ditched joplin for obsidian. haven't regretted it once. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]costasf 11 points12 points13 points 9 hours ago (0 children) Joplin stores your files as plain markdown, but gives them the weird filenames for versioning/syncing purposes. You can export your entire collection of notes using their desktop app, and it will give them the human-readable note title names. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]TheQuantumPhysicist[S] 5 points6 points7 points 10 hours ago (3 children) That kind of makes sense. What is the expected behavior in your opinion, note titles as file names? That can cause conflicts. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]petalised 10 points11 points12 points 9 hours ago (2 children) My expected behaviour is having markdown files in directories. That's it. You can name them whatever you like, you can search them with a GUI file manager, TUI file manager, grep etc. You can open them in vim, neovim, emacs, nano, notepad++, gedit. Whatever you want. I don't really know a lot about GUI markdown editors, since I use neovim, but I definitely heard of the ones that just can work with you file structure. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]sprayfoamparty 0 points1 point2 points 6 hours ago (0 children) Then what is the function of joplin? You are describing a gui markdown text editor. A good one with search and such. I was using (non free) typora for a long time, it did this and behaved how you describe. But it is a different category than joplin. Joplin does lots of other stuff, supports non markdown formatting (because users want it) and that has to be stored somehow. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]spryfigure 0 points1 point2 points 5 hours ago (0 children) What do you use together with neovim to have a nice workflow with markdown? I assume you have some WYSIWYG viewer as well for inline images and such. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]No_Manufacturer_5115 4 points5 points6 points 9 hours ago (0 children) But you can export all notes to markdown,html and apparently pdf besides their own format no ? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]Code_slave 0 points1 point2 points 8 hours ago (0 children) im pretty sure there is a config var to store as files instead of a db * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]a_standard_user 10 points11 points12 points 7 hours ago* (1 child) (SN dev here)--Thanks u/TheQuantumPhysicist. The bullet point headlines make for some good copywriting, but aren't really close to the truth. The descriptions also omit important details that paint a completely different picture than what is actually true. Things like "Your notes are not yours anymore" are blatantly written to incite, and it seems to have worked :) But to add context: * Self-hosting has historically been resource intensive due to the microservices oriented architecture. Making the experience exceptional takes effort. This effort comes at the cost of effort elsewhere, so we couldn't give it priority in the past. In an attempt to remedy this, we're iterating on the economics. On Discord, where u/TheQuantumPhysicist is active, their point was that it's not worth trying to make self-hosting economically viable because only few people self-host and it wouldn't make a dent to the bottom line. The problem with this line of thinking is that, if we did nothing, nothing would change. And, we're not so large a company that dozens of self-hosters contributing in any way they can every month wouldn't make a difference. It would. * It's important to note that the free features in SN have been constant, if not ever-expanding, since its inception. Historically we have been making more features free, than making them paid, over time. The forever-free plan provides you with a lot out of the box, including unlimited devices and unlimited notes. It's only if you want more powerful editing abilities beyond plaintext and if you want file storage that plans come into play. * The usage of "proprietary" is a bit exaggerated. By proprietary, u/TheQuantumPhysicist means that the underlying data format is not interoperable with other software programs. But of course this is dependent on the user experience you want. If you use the plain text, markdown, or checklist note type, the data is purely plaintext and of course interoperable with every other text editing software in the world. But if you want things like collapsable blocks and embedded encrypted files that can't use traditional tags, we have to roll our own solution. Even Obsidian, who had previously been really committed to "everything is a markdown file on your disk" had to expand to proprietary JSON for their canvas feature, because if you want more power, plaintext/markdown just won't do. And of course calling our encrypted file storage format "proprietary" is a bit hyperbolic, because as a software engineer themselves, u/ TheQuantumPhysicist likely knows there is no standard/ interoperable encrypted storage format. Ours is at the very least completely open-source. But overall I hear u/TheQuantumPhysicist's main gripe that self-hosting Standard Notes is not as "set it and forget it" as we'd all like it to be. In my experience it might require about half an hour a couple times a year or so to stay on top of the updates, and while this doesn't seem like a lot, it may be in the heat of the moment when you just want things to work and don't want to fiddle with devops on the side. To make it all more seamless is an ambitious goal for us, and something I'm personally committed to undertaking. Of course we didn't invent self-hosting and this is the tradeoff all self-hosters make when deploying infrastructure locally, but that shouldn't stop us from making it increasingly more seamless. It's surprisingly difficult to build infrastructure for our world-wide hosted users, while keeping the same infrastructure approachable for a single-user self-hosting use case. It's not quite "free" as in you can just build it once and expect it to run in both environments. The economics are of course significantly tipped towards optimizing for our own global hosted usecase, but if we want to balance the scales, then our only shot is iterating on the economics. We may not get it right the first few tries, but we have to try. Lastly, I want to add one last bit of color on the self-hosted plan iteration we made recently: * The self-hosted plan now costs $39/year, compared to the $120/ year it was previously. But to be fair, previously this plan was somewhat optional, and now it is required if you plan to use our official client distributions and want to unlock those extra premium features if the free plan isn't enough for your needs. * You don't actually have to pay. You just have to help out and make self-hosting viable and a win-win for everyone. You can get two years of free service by just leaving an unbiased review on the App Store or Google Play, or by writing an unbiased review on your blog or social media. Incidentally u/TheQuantumPhysicist's review here on reddit would 100% be satisfactory as an unbiased review of SN :) * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]sprayfoamparty 6 points7 points8 points 6 hours ago (0 children) It's not quite "free" as in you can just build it once and expect it to run in both environments. I really like the elaboration of "free" in FLOSS I heard from Nadia Eghba: free as in puppies. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]Everything-Bagel-33 1 point2 points3 points 9 hours ago (0 children) I did the same thing last week. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]joshp23 1 point2 points3 points 8 hours ago (0 children) I looked at SN when I was trying to land on a note taking app. I went with flat markdown files and later made the move to NextCloud Notes. It does everything I need and uses markdown with flat files, easy to backup, etc. I can't even with a paid subscription for self hosting. Glad I didn't go with SN. Pft. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]SkipTam 1 point2 points3 points 7 hours ago (2 children) Im having problems with Joplin sync. Some devices just don't get the notes. And I clone those and then there there. No idea. I'm thinking of switching to trillium have no idea how good the mobile version is * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]ratthing 0 points1 point2 points 6 hours ago (1 child) I gave up on Joplin a couple of years ago due to the very unreliable sync with my Nextcloud server. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]Camo138 0 points1 point2 points 2 hours ago (0 children) I've had 0 problems with Joplin so far. I've played with obsidian for acouple of months. I also do miss the plugins. Maybe I'll use it with syncthing next time * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]drr21 1 point2 points3 points 7 hours ago (0 children) Solution: plex pass model with lifetime license * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]sprayfoamparty 1 point2 points3 points 5 hours ago (0 children) I tried SN a few years ago when I was starting to get into FLOSS. I basically got the same vibe as described here. It's difficult to make a living off a FLOSS project, especially one who's utility is very individual and would probably not be of interest to enterprise backers (which can create its own problems). Since I don't have any great ideas about it, my criticism isn't exactly constructive. But the whole thing felt very locked in, locked down. Since my specific intention was to migrate to FLOSS, I moved on to trying other options. (None of which are perfect.) Btw I am not adverse to paying for things to support them. In comparison to my monthly utility bills, the amount I voluntarily pay towards projects is towards the higher end. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]not_that_batman 1 point2 points3 points 4 hours ago (0 children) I gave up self-hosting Standard Notes after my completely vanilla setup broke on me for the second time in three years. Both times were because of something screwy in an update. As soon as I stopped self-hosting SN I freed up soooo much space on my Docker VM. Bummer that they are going subscription for self-hosting. I understand that they have to make money, but I will just not use them. My notes are some of the most important things, so there's no way I'm going to lock them behind a subscription. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]lestrenched 1 point2 points3 points 7 hours ago (6 children) OP, why aren't you using Dokuwiki or just a plain self-hosted git repo instead? What extra features did standard notes have that you cannot have with plain markdown files? Other than tagged organisation, I presume. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]TheQuantumPhysicist[S] 1 point2 points3 points 7 hours ago (5 children) Dokuwiki doesn't fulfill the end-to-end encryption requirement I'm trying to achieve here. There are security assumptions combined with convenience that are taken into consideration when thinking of note-taking software. Having said that, Dokuwiki is a webtool, which means it'll be in the browser, and isn't end-to-end encrypted. It's clear-text on the server, meaning that if the server is compromised, everything will be exposed. From a security point of view, maintaining security of a laptop is relatively easier (assuming the user isn't a moron who just double-clicks every malware). And even then, the notes software should have encrypted notes on disk (which is a feature missing in Joplin, which I'm planning to kick-start later). The server also should have fully encrypted notes. Now using git, this isn't really that convenient, because searching notes will require you to grep, and viewing files will require you to manually open every file, leave alone end-to-end encryption... am I supposed to share a VeraCrypt volume? That's a nightmare to maintain, whether it's git in VeraCrypt volume or the other way around. Basically the right tool checks many checkboxes. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]lestrenched 0 points1 point2 points 7 hours ago (4 children) Could you reiterate your needs? Are you trying to share your notes outside your network? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]TheQuantumPhysicist[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 hours ago (3 children) My notes should be accessible from outside my network, but should be end-to-end encrypted. I'm happy with something like WebDAV combined with encryption, such that if the server is compromised, nothing can be achieved. Would be lovely if the notes can be encrypted on disk... but they can't for now in Joplin. I can live with that until that happens. Besides that, the app should be slick and fast like Joplin or SN (which a web-app, like Dokuwiki or Wordpress, hardly can achieve because of the http nature of these applications). SN is better with that regard, but again, it's not a big deal. Joplin is fast enough given the cost and trouble. There should be a good search function, where words are searched through in all the notes with filtering capabilities. There should be a smartphone app with sync feature. The server has to be as simple as possible. This isn't a requirement but more of a wish. That's why WebDAV is a good answer. I should be able to create notes easily with minimal preparation, where I click "+" icon and start writing. There should be formatting support. Markdown is the best in this department for interoperability. There should be attachment support. There's no unified system for this, but there should be some kind of strong coupling between notes and attachments, where files are not randomly scattered around for any reason. That's what I can think of, off the top of my head. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]lestrenched 0 points1 point2 points 6 hours ago (2 children) Are you going to be the only one using these notes? * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]TheQuantumPhysicist[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 hours ago (1 child) Sharing isn't required, really. Would be nice, though. But the usage isn't only for me, but also family members. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]lestrenched 1 point2 points3 points 6 hours ago (0 children) If you trust your family members enough, then I would again like to reiterate git for your scenario. There are apps on Android which can sync with a git server (GitJournal and Zettel Notes are the ones which I have tried). You can start writing notes in a jiffy, and they are relatively quick. You can commit and edit through them, although I haven't tried the more complex operations like merge and rebase. Git repositories can be encrypted on disk. As for the encryption, create a Wireguard VPN server and share the config with your family members. Personally I espouse the use of a VPN at all times for a "public" service anyway, so any suggestions I might have (like Nextcloud, since you mention WebDAV) should also be accessed through the VPN in my opinion. The only problem I see is of attachments. Most of my notes are text only with the pictures being hyperlinked from an assets sub-directory, in the root directory of the related note, in markdown, but that might not work for you (I just store the pictures in my phone till I get home and then upload it to my server and then go from there). If you are going to use links (something which Nextcloud can provide) for your media, note that you will face the same problem as the internet faces (dead links) as your infrastructure grows. I didn't want that sort of overhead so I stayed with simple files, but if you'd like to do it. The only problem with Obsidian on a phone is how are you going to sync it to the server. Maybe Syncthing. Doesn't work for me since I use git, but then I don't use Obsidian for serious notes (which need to be backed up) on my phone anyway. But a combination of a markdown app with a synchronisation app like Syncthing should also work. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]spider-sec -4 points-3 points-2 points 7 hours ago (0 children) The introduced paid subscription for self-hosted users (money isn't the problem, really): After having introduced their "paid subscription" for the self-hosted plan (yes, you heard that right, you have to pay for self-hosted now, and it won't work anymore without a key, so you're locked out), it's become impossible to rely on the software. For behind the "straw that broke the camels back" it sure take it a long time. I've had my subscription for two years this month, so you definately weren't in a hurry for it being such a big deal. Your notes are not yours anymore I don't know what you did, but that's not true and they make that very clear. The subscription is add those special note types and without the subscription you still have access to your data, just not the special types. There's lots of statements about it in their FAQ. You even talk about the process in your next complaint. I'm not even going to read and address the rest because they make all of this very clear on the website and have for at least two years and it seems like you're complaining about stuff that has been well-known for years and we're intentionally part of the design. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]Empyrealist -1 points0 points1 point 3 hours ago (0 children) So, is Standard Notes no longer open source? * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [+]corsicanguppy comment score below threshold-7 points-6 points-5 points 6 hours ago (1 child) a [...] software Nope. That word doesn't work like that. Consider 'application' or 'program' instead. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]Fillicia 0 points1 point2 points 10 minutes ago (0 children) Merriam Webster software noun soft* ware 'soft-,wer : something used or associated with and usually contrasted with hardware: such as a : programs for a computer accounting software Or a note-taking software * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]beigemore 0 points1 point2 points 9 hours ago (1 child) I really like Synology Notes. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]redballooon 1 point2 points3 points 8 hours ago (0 children) I sorta do also, but if you want to c&p to or from Synology notes it's usually a disaster. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]gani_stryker 0 points1 point2 points 9 hours ago (3 children) I was on the verge of abandoning for the very same reasons, especially when it came to maintenance of self hosted stack. I had to upgrade last year from my droplet instance to something capable enough to house standard notes. The subscriptions still work without having to pay, did you try this https://standardnotes.com/help/ self-hosting/subscriptions? * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]TheQuantumPhysicist[S] 0 points1 point2 points 9 hours ago (2 children) As of a week or two ago, this isn't enough anymore: https:// standardnotes.com/help/48/ can-i-use-extensions-with-a-self-hosted-server * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]gani_stryker 0 points1 point2 points 8 hours ago (1 child) That's only to use their proprietary plugins, activating the self hosted plan alone should work as intended. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]TheQuantumPhysicist[S] 1 point2 points3 points 8 hours ago (0 children) There's no activation required for self-hosted other than for "plugins" and so on, which are called proprietary because the basic note-taking editor is a simple plain-text editor. This is all weird! Then, the problem happens when you're locked out of your notes when something goes wrong with the subscription due to no-fault of your own, like the email issue. You could try to justify the "limitations", but stability is a big part of why this is a bad idea. I can't be using this one day and then locked out the next day because they decided to change their subscription plans without notice. This is literally what being under their whims is. Maybe I'm crazy, but if people find this acceptable, then please feel free to use SN. I cannot tolerate this model and I feel this is against the ethos of self-hosting. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]Wooden-Photo-2783 0 points1 point2 points 6 hours ago (3 children) What's a good alternative that is also open source? * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]TheQuantumPhysicist[S] 2 points3 points4 points 6 hours ago (1 child) I'm aiming at Joplin currently. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]JoeB- 1 point2 points3 points 1 hour ago (0 children) I've never heard of Standard Notes, but I'm a Joplin proponent. In the past, I've used OneNote and Evernote, but neither compare to Joplin. I highly recommend it. It is a desktop and mobile app, but can use a self-hosted WebDAV server for synchronizing between devices. There also is a dedicated synchronization server in development, currently in beta. I synchronize my notes between Mac, Linux, and mobile devices. Following is a screenshot of my Joplin app in use... Joplin app screenshot I created 72x72 png images to use for a number of purposes, including Joplin. I uploaded these to Dropbox if you are interested in using them... 72x72 image catalog The only two shortcomings that I see are... * It is an Electron app, so not the speediest. * Syntax highlighting in code blocks is not the best. Being built on MD also has its pros and cons. MD has its limitations, but Joplin can toggle back and forth between raw editing of the markdown text and editing in WYSIWYG. Personally, I like MD. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]ency 1 point2 points3 points 5 hours ago (0 children) I'm using Trilium. It does what it does very well. I would like if there were dedicated apps and a mobile app as well. It could also handle files a bit better but I cant complain too much as it does 95% of what in ways that I want. * permalink * embed * save * parent * report * give award * reply [-]0oWow 0 points1 point2 points 4 hours ago (0 children) Wow, I didn't know about the paid to self-host license now. I've been watching them from time to time to see if they go down on prices, but they only go UP and now they are at a ridiculous price. Self-hosted price seems to be $39/yr, which is really what the non-self-hosted price should be. Anyways, I've been testing Crypt.ee and like it a lot. I know this isn't a self-hosted option, but it is similar in security to Standard Notes. They just updated to make it a lot faster. It is open source and encrypts everything before it leaves your device. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]lenjioereh 0 points1 point2 points 3 hours ago (0 children) SaaS is killing all us slowly. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]schlyza 0 points1 point2 points 3 hours ago (0 children) Just try LogSeq. It's a bit of a change on the way you usually take notes, but once you learn, oh man. It is awesome. I'd never go back. For sync, I use syncthing and it is just flawless. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]mudkipdev 0 points1 point2 points 2 hours ago (0 children) Try Obsidian. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply [-]dizvyz 0 points1 point2 points 2 minutes ago (0 children) I too gave up on standardnotes a while ago. It is one of the weirdest web apps I've ever used. My current solution after trying everything out there is just plain markdown files in various named directories. I gave up on using a web interface. On the desktop I use the Kate text editor. The only features I need are a folder view, and recursive text search in said folder(s). On mobile I use markor which satisfies the same requirements. Everything is synced with syncthing. * permalink * embed * save * report * give award * reply * about * blog * about * advertising * careers * help * site rules * Reddit help center * reddiquette * mod guidelines * contact us * apps & tools * Reddit for iPhone * Reddit for Android * mobile website * <3 * reddit premium * reddit coins Use of this site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy. (c) 2023 reddit inc. All rights reserved. REDDIT and the ALIEN Logo are registered trademarks of reddit inc. [pixel] p Rendered by PID 29963 on reddit-service-r2-loggedout-6b8f497cc6-qkvwz at 2023-01-30 23:02:24.031189+00:00 running 8afdcc0 country code: US.