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Redundancy vs dependencies: which is worse?

May 27th, 2008 | software

I believe that there are just two intrinsic forces in programming:

 1. You want to minimize redundancy and, ideally, define every piece
    of knowledge once.
 2. You want to minimize dependencies - A should depend on B only if
    it absolutely must.

I think that all other considerations are of the extrinsic real-world
kind - domain modeling, usability, schedules, platforms, etc. I also
think that I can show how any "good" programming practice is mainly
aimed at minimizing redundancy, dependencies, or both. I even think
that you can tell a "good" programmer from a "bad" one by their
attitude towards redundancy and dependencies. The good ones hate
them, the bad ones don't care.

If this idea looks idiotically oversimplified, note that I mean
"programming aptitude" in a narrow sense of code quality. I've seen
brilliant, cooperative people with uncanny algorithmic capabilities
who still wrote awful code. I tried to figure it out and the common
denominator seemed to be that they just didn't care about redundancy
or dependencies, or even kinda liked them. Maybe it still looks
idiotically oversimplified. Let's leave it at that, because it's not
what I'm here to talk about.

I'm here to talk about the case when minimizing redundancy conflicts
with minimizing dependencies. This case is basically code reuse
beyond module boundaries. You can choose between having modules A and
B using a module C doing something, or have them do it themselves.
What's your call?

One strikingly dumb thing about this question is that it's centered
around the term "module", which is vague and informal. However,
"module" is what makes this a trade-off. Inside a module, of course
you want to reuse the code, end of discussion. Why would anyone want
to parse two command line options with two duplicated code snippets
when you could use a function?

On the other hand, if two modules parse command lines, we can still
factor out the parsing code, but we'd have to make it a third module.
Alternatively, we can stuff it into a "utilities" module. The one
affectionately called "the trash can". The one which won't link
without a bunch of external libraries used to implement some of its
handy functions. The one with the configuration which always gets
misconfigured, and the initialization which never happens at the
right time. You know, the utilities module.

I believe that years of experience barely matter in terms of
knowledge. You don't learn at work at a pace anywhere near that of a
full-time student. Experience mainly does two things: it builds
character, and it destroys character. Case in point: young,
passionate programmers are usually very happy to make the third
module, nor do they cringe when they delve into the utility trash
can. They're then understandably offended when their more seasoned
colleagues, having noticed their latest "infrastructural" activity,
reach out for the barf bags. This certainly illustrates either the
character-building or the character-destroying power of experience, I
just don't know which one.

No, seriously. Take command line parsing. You want common syntax for
options, right? And you want some of them to accept values, right?
And those values can be strings, and booleans, and integers, right?
And integers can be decimal or hexadecimal, right? And they can be
values of user-defined types, right? And they can have help strings,
right? And you'd like to generate help screens from them, right? And
GUIs with property pages? And read them from configuration files? And
check the legality of flags or sets of flags, right?

Sure. It's not a big deal. Trivial, even. (If you're smart,
everything is trivial until you fail completely due to exceeding
complexity. And admit that you failed due to exceeding complexity.
The former takes time to happen, the latter can never happen.) Quite
some people have devoted several of the beautiful months of their
youth to the problem of argument passing. Example: XParam, which
calls itself "The Solution to Parameter Handling". Took >10K LOC the
last time I checked. Comes with its own serialization framework.
Rumors tell that its original host project uses <5% of its features.

Clarification: I'm not mocking the authors of XParam. Reason 1:
Rumors tell they are pretty sharp. Reason 2: I'm really, really
ashamed to admit this, but I once worked on a logging library called
XLog. Took >10K LOC the last time I counted. Came with its own
serialization framework. First-hand evidence tells that its host
project uses 0% of its features. Ouch.

You know how I parse command line arguments in my modules these days?
Like so:

for(i=0; i<argc; ++i) {
  if(strcmp(argv[i],"-trace")==0) {
    trace=1;
  }
}

I used C for the example because it's the ugliest language for string
processing, and it's still a piece of cake. No, I don't get help
screens. No, I don't get proper command line validation. So sue me.
They're debugging options. It's good enough. Beats having everything
depend on a 10K LOC command line parsing package. Not to mention a
50K LOC utility trash can full of toxic waste.

Modules are important. Module boundaries are important. A module is a
piece of software that has:

 1. A reasonably compact, stable interface. An unfortunate side
    effect of OO training is that compact interfaces aren't valued.
    It's considered OK to expose an object model with tens of classes
    and hairy data structures and poorly thought-out extensibility
    hooks. Furthermore, an unfortunate side effect of C++ classes is
    that "stable interface" is an oxymoron. But no matter; nothing
    prevents you from implementing a compact, stable interface.
 2. Documentation. The semantics of the compact and stable interface
    are described somewhere. A really good module comes with example
    code. "Internal" modules lacking reasonably complete
    documentation suck, although aren't always avoidable.
 3. Tests. I don't think unit-testing each class or function makes
    sense. What has to be tested is the "official" module interfaces,
    because if they work, the whole module can be considered working,
    and otherwise, it can't.
 4. Reasonable size. A module should generally be between 1K and 30K
    LOC (the numbers are given in C++ KLOC units; for 4GLs, divide
    them by 4). Larger modules are a pile of mud. A system composed
    of a zillion tiny modules is itself a pile of mud.
 5. Owner. The way to change a module is to convince the owner to
    make a change. The way to fix a bug is to report it to the owner.
    That way, you can count on the interface to be backed up by a
    consistent mental model making it work. The number of people
    capable of simultaneously maintaining this kind of mental model
    was experimentally determined to be 1.
 6. Life cycle. Except for emergency bug fixes, changes to a module
    are batched into versions, which aren't released too frequently.
    Otherwise you can't have a tested, stable interface.

Pretty heavy.

Do I want to introduce a module to handle command line parsing? Do I
really wish to become the honored owner of this bleeding-edge
technology? Not now, thank you. Of course, it's the burnout speaking;
it would be fun and it would be trivial, really. Luckily, not
everyone around is lazy and grumpy like me. See? That guy over there
already created a command line parsing module. And that other person
here made one, too. Now, do I want my code to depend on their stuff?

Tough question. I've already compromised my reputation by refusing to
properly deal with command line parsing. If my next move is refusing
to use an Existing Solution, I will have proved the antisocial nature
of my personality. Where's my team spirit? And still, I have my
doubts. Is this really a module?

First and foremost, and this is the most annoying of all questions -
who owns this piece of work? Sure, you thought it was trivial and you
hacked it up. But are you willing to support it, or do you have
someone in mind you'd like to transfer the ownership to? You probably
don't even realize that it has to be supported, since it's so
trivial. Oh, but you will. You will realize that it has to be
supported.

I'm enough of a Kassandra to tell exactly when you'll realize it. It
will be when the first completely idiotic change is made to your code
by someone else. Not unlikely, tying it to another piece of
"infrastructure", leading to a Gordian knot of dependencies. Ever
noticed how infrastructure lovers always believe their module comes
first in the dependency food chain and how it ultimately causes
cyclic dependencies? So anyway, then, you'll understand. Of course,
it will be too late as far as I'm concerned. My code got tied to
yours, theirs, and everybody else's sticky infrastructure. Oopsie.

(The naive reader may ask, what can a command line parser possibly
depend on? Oh, plenty of stuff. A serialization package. A parsing
package. A colored terminal I/O package, for help screens. C++: a
platform-specific package for accessing argc, argv before main() is
called. C++: a singleton initialization management package. WTF is
that, you ask? Get a barf bag and check out what Modern C++ Design
has to say on the subject).

So no, I don't want to depend on anything without an owner. I see how
this reasoning can be infuriating. Shifting the focus from software
to wetware is a dirty trick loved by technically impotent
pseudo-business-oriented middle-management loser types. Here's my
attempt at distinguishing myself from their ilk: not only do I want
to depend on stuff with an owner, but I require a happy owner at
that. Contrary to a common managerial assumption (one of those which
rarely hold but do keep managers sane), I don't believe in forcibly
assigning ownership. If the owner doesn't like the module, expect
some pretty lousy gardening job.

What about life cycle? My modules and your modules are released at
different times. I might run into a need to check for compatibility
with different versions of your stuff. My tests won't compile without
your code, so now I need to always have it in my environment. What
does your code depend on - is it a small, stable, defined set of
things? I don't want to be stuck just because your new version drags
in more dependencies. What if I need a feature? You don't seem to
support floating point numbers. And I don't see abbreviations,
either; I need them for a bunch of flags 'cause they're passed
interactively all the time.

What about stable interface and semantics? Your previous version
would accept command lines passing the same option multiple times,
and take the last value. I have test scripts that count on that. Your
new version reports an error, because now this syntax is reserved for
lists (-frob=a -frob=b -frob=c passes the list a,b,c as the value of
the frob option). Sigh. I guess it could be worse - you could make
the string "a,b,c" from this command line, and then the problem would
propagate deeper.

I could go on and on, about how your interface isn't a decent public
interface (you don't seriously expect me to subclass EnumParser to
handle flags with a fixed set of legal string values, do you?). Or
about the size of your code, which at the moment dwarfs the size of
my own module, so I'd have more command line parsing code than
anything else in my tests. And how it hurts when you download the
tests using a slow connection to the target machine. And how I don't
like it when my tests crash inside your code, even when it's my
fault, because you have hairy data structures that I don't like to
inspect.

But you already got it - I don't want your code, because I'm an
antisocial asshole that has no team spirit whatsoever. I'm going to
parse arguments using 5 lines of C code. Worse, I'll make a function
out of those five lines, prefix its name with the module name, and
replicate it in all my modules. Yep, I'm the copy-paste programmer
and you're the enlightened developer of the next generation command
line parsing platform. Have it your way, and I'll have it my way.

To complete the bad impression I've been making here, I'll use a
flawed real-world analogy. Think living organisms. They have a very
serious Tower of Babel problem; redundancy is everywhere. I've heard
that humans and octopuses have very similar eye structure, despite
being descendant from a blind ancestor. Command line parsers?! Entire
eyes, not the simplest piece of hardware with quite some neural
complexity at the back-end, get developed independently. Redundancy
can hardly get any worse. But it works, apparently better than
coordinating everybody's efforts to evolve would work.

Redundancy sucks. Redundancy always means duplicated efforts, and
sometimes interoperability problems. But dependencies are worse. The
only reasonable thing to depend on is a full-fledged, real module,
not an amorphous bunch of code. You can usually look at a problem and
guess quite well if its solution has good chances to become a real
module, with a real owner, with a stable interface making all its
users happy enough. If these chances are low, pick redundancy. And
estimate those chances conservatively, too. Redundancy is bad, but
dependencies can actually paralyze you. I say - kill dependencies
first.

132 comments |

#1 Entity on 05.27.08 at 5:21 pm

    One thing you didn't touch on, even with redundancy in your code
    it does future proof your code. Where by dependence on a central
    library file being COM or DLL can break and disable your
    application long since development work has finished.

    Similar attitude I've read about from the Microsoft Excel camp
    was an old saying "Find the dependencies and eliminate them".
    Though, since then the Microsoft Excel team has since gone
    through so many developers I don't think that comment really
    reflects the new Microsoft Excel team.

    Would like to add, that I agree with you that it comes down to
    experience. Choosing and weighing up the dependencies and
    redundancy at the start of the project can in most cases mean the
    difference between finishing the project on time or overshoot it.
    Also your perspective and motivations.

#2 anthonyrstevens on 05.27.08 at 6:16 pm

    Fantastic post. I wish more developers had this kind of wisdom!

#3 Programmers: Go Read Proper Fixation << The Pursuit of a Life on
    05.27.08 at 7:41 pm

    [...] here's Yossi, writing about dependencies and redundancy:
    But you already got it - I don't want your code, because I'm an
    antisocial asshole that has no [...]

#4 Doug on 05.27.08 at 9:05 pm

    Another way to look at it (at least, I think it's similar): I'm
    old enough to remember when the big thing wasn't "don't repeat
    yourself", it was "coupling and cohesion". Minimum coupling and
    maximum cohesion are the desired traits. Dependencies increase
    coupling and reduce cohesion. Bad on both counts.

    Copy-and-paste still sounds evil to me, but I have to say that in
    my (considerable) experience it has actually caused me
    considerably less grief than dependencies have.

    Don Knuth seems to think so too: "To me, 're-editable code' is
    much, much better than an untouchable black box or toolkit...
    you'll never convince me that reusable code isn't mostly a
    menace."

#5 ilyak on 05.28.08 at 1:01 am

    Domain specific languages are good for you because a) They
    generally have small and consistent API, b) They generally
    require enough effort to make them owned and have real releases.

    Also, you've usually got to have a few functions which back up
    deficiences of your language, which will reside in utilities,
    used universally and can be generally considered part of
    underlying platform/language.
    They would also have a small stable API and would not generally
    have a release cycle, at all.

#6 Yossi Kreinin on 05.28.08 at 10:15 am

    Regarding the Excel team as portrayed by Spolsky and Knuth: it's
    the "do it yourself" way; this post was more about defending
    "don't do it". Both have to do with minimizing dependency, but
    it's a different battle. "Do it yourself" is loved by strong
    programmers; "don't do it" is something managers and bad/evil
    programmers are attracted to. I can sure relate to Excel's own C
    compiler and Knuth's own processor though, and DIY can be hard to
    defend in, um, an industrial environment; I think I should talk
    about it some time.

    Regarding future-proof code: to be fair, redundancy can make
    change hard, and future may force change. But still, depending on
    a vast array of external libraries with different life cycles is
    waaaay more likely to give you royal pain than redundancy, if we
    look at the kind of dependencies and redundancy found in code
    written by reasonable people. I think.

    DSLs: I love them. DSLs are DIY taken to an extreme though.

    Utility trash can covering up the deficiencies of your language:
    BARF. Works for exactly once person and becomes a nightmare
    otherwise. It's going to be neither small nor stable, and it will
    show up each time trouble surfaces. Give me one example of a
    language-deficiency-covering utility I want to drag with me
    everywhere.

    (By any chance, isn't your deficiency-ridden language C++, and
    isn't your trash can called debug.h? Many people have a debug.h.
    I'm just curious.)

#7 arakyd on 05.28.08 at 11:34 pm

    I think this is a really interesting topic. Some thoughts:

    Butler Lampson said similar things in "Software Components: Only
    The Giants Survive." He seems to be of the opinion that it hasn't
    turned out to be cost-effective to use someone else's modules
    unless they are 5MLOC+: databases, programming languages,
    operating systems, etc. At that point rolling your own is too
    hard, and there is probably an organization and maybe a business
    plan behind those 5MLOC, so there are resources to make decent
    general purpose interfaces and you don't have to worry about who
    the owner is. Everyone uses (a different) small fraction of each
    of these components and loses some number of orders of magnitude
    of runtime efficiency in exchange for having to write less code.
    No one can productively use more than a few modules at any level
    because of inevitable impedance mismatches.

    It's interesting to look at how Chuck Moore approaches this with
    Forth. Redundancy is eliminated in favor of dependency as much as
    possible, and dependencies are factored into the smallest
    possible groups (words). Words are grouped together in small
    bunches (screens), but there are no real module boundaries and
    the only real interface is the very simple one between words.
    Ideally one ends up with very little redundancy and dependencies
    that can easily be managed because 1) each word only has a few,
    and 2) the overall system is much smaller (the zillion tiny
    modules aren't a problem because there are really only a few
    hundred or so). You can have your cake and eat it too with
    respect to redundancy and dependency, but you pay for it by
    making it much harder to use any kind of external library at all.

    Forth is basically a DSL constructor, and the philosophy tends to
    the extreme of extreme DIY. Still, think about it: at small
    scales I think every language and every good programmer solves
    the problem the same way as Forth and other truly extensible
    languages do: all code necessarily contains dependencies (it's
    dependencies all the way down to the laws of physics), we know
    how to manage dependency up to some level by breaking it into
    small pieces, minimum redundancy is theoretically zero, and
    redundancy increases code size and therefore necessarily adds
    dependencies as well (although redundant dependencies are usually
    not as bad). The problem occurs when 1) the code grows past the
    point where the programmer can handle the dependencies, or 2) the
    code grows past the point where the language can break all the
    dependencies into small groups, or 3) you have to use code with
    an interface that someone else has designed that has any of the
    problems that are mentioned above, or by Lampson.

    The dominant model for scaling seems to be to try to solve
    everything with good modules. The result is that there are good
    large modules, but they all have their own complex interfaces
    that you have to learn and fit together. You don't get much help
    from the language scaling your own code, so your code size grows
    fairly quickly and at 1-30KLOC you feel pressure to tie it off
    with your own more or less ad-hoc interface. Pain scales
    super-linearly with the number of modules you try to glue
    together. It takes a lot of smart people to build large systems,
    and they probably write most of their own modules to minimize
    interface clash.

    Two other approaches:

    Niche languages with 2X better support for breaking dependencies
    into small groups: They have no libraries, so the largest systems
    that get built have 2*1-30KLOC. Nobody is impressed, nobody
    writes libraries, no one uses the language, it dies.

    Forth: Chuck Moore writes sophisticated applications with it in
    ridiculously small amounts of code (very low redundancy,
    relatively low number of very small packages of dependences) and
    without libraries (no external software dependencies), thus
    (almost) completely bypassing the interface problem. No one else
    wants to buy a simple unified interface and drastically reduced
    code size at the cost of a huge impedance mismatch with 99.9% of
    existing code and most large components.

#8 ilyak on 05.29.08 at 3:48 am

    Yossi Kreinin:
    Easy!
    In Java:
    public static String notNull(String src) {
    return (src == null ? "" : src);
    }
    public static boolean isEmpty(String str) {
    return str == null || str.trim().length() == 0;
    }
    public static boolean isNotEmpty(String str) {
    return !Util.isEmpty(str);
    }

    public static int intValue(String str, int def)
    {
    if(Util.isEmpty(str))
    return def;
    try {
    return Integer.parseInt(str);
    } catch(NumberFormatException nfe) {
    return def;
    }
    }

    Without them, I would DIE, my code will be much longer for all
    places where I would inline these helpers redundantly, and it
    will be exception-unsafe in every place where I will forget them
    (and yes, I tend to "forget" some checks if they are ugly and
    require a few lines per check).

#9 Entity on 05.29.08 at 4:46 pm

    @Yossi Kreinin

    Wouldn't you agree that this is soooo much easier to read. Its
    not as robust as your first example, but when you take a system
    wide view instead of a narrow single function such redundancy is
    the biggest enemy of simplicity.

    public static int intValue(String str, int def)
    {
    try{
    return Integer.parseInt(str);
    } catch(NumberFormatException nfe){
    return def;
    }
    }

#10 Yossi Kreinin on 05.30.08 at 12:04 pm

    to ilyak, Entity: I could start nitpicking along the lines of
    "why do you treat empty and null strings as the same thing, few
    languages do so and for a good reason, too, *I* never have
    problems with that", etc. But that would miss the point; of
    course you might need this kind of function. I drag a bunch of
    those with me; for example, C++ istream doesn't have a filesize
    function, you need to seekg and subtract, so I have a function
    for that, etc.

    The question is, do you drag it with you as a package that other
    people are supposed to use, or do you stuff it into a utility
    class/file you replicate in many packages/modules you work on.
    All I was saying is that the latter beats the former. Because if
    you make a "shared module" out of these few funny handy
    functions, you will have created a dependency problem. People
    will "enhance" it, add functions depending on still other utility
    modules, break the semantics of your functions, etc. Or if they
    can't do that socially, they won't reuse it, because you see, I
    want to try and parse the number as decimal and hexadecimal
    before failing and returning the default, but you only care about
    decimal, so I'll roll my own functions which I'd die without :)
    And if it won't be reused, and as you claim there's no release
    cycle, there seems little point in sharing it. Let those thing be
    the guts of a module, not a module in its own right, to make the
    overall picture of which modules there are and how they're
    related a cleaner one. It's surprising how much the cleanliness
    of this picture matters for the social well-being of projects;
    unclear dependencies and roles of modules actually confuse people
    a lot, despite the usual triviality of the issues.

#11 Yossi Kreinin on 05.30.08 at 12:38 pm

    to arakyd: thanks for the pointer to Lampson's paper. I
    particularly liked the bit about "specs with teeth".

    Chuck Moore is an extremist even in the Forth community. For
    example, most forthers, um, endorse ANS Forth, and Chuck Moore
    more or less hates it, because of being bloated and requiring
    compatibility. Here's a man who loves impedance mismatch...

    I used to like Forth a lot. I now think it's The Wrong Thing. Its
    terseness is achieved at the cost of extreme obfuscation, which
    has the side effect of few opportunities for automatic
    optimization.

    The compact programs written in Forth aren't just the result of
    language features. Having no variable names only gives you so
    much space savings, and the metaprogramming features like CREATE/
    DOES> aren't even in Chuck Moore's toolbox - apparently 'cause
    he's into simplicity and this stuff is hairy. And I think you can
    do with Lisp what you can do with Forth in terms of
    metaprogramming power, without getting cut nearly as painfully by
    the sharp edges.

    Compact Forth programs are the result of whole philosophy of
    preferring simplicity to features. Unix also has this philosophy,
    but Forth takes it to a 10x more extreme level (how did that
    quote by Chuck Moore go?.. "Forth uses a different approach. No
    syntax. No files. No types. No operating system."). Now, I don't
    think that cutting features to make your life easier is the way
    to go. Definitely not when end user-visible features are at
    stake. And even developer-visible features are more important
    than the less competent managers would like to believe. It's not
    trivial to draw the line correctly, and this is why I thought my
    command line example would be appropriate - there, I find that
    the question of what features to have is experimentally found
    non-trivial enough to be flammable. But even Unix has too few
    core features, and a Forth system has waaaay to few. Which is why
    Windows>Unix>>Forth in terms of market share. Dead simple.

    Take multiplexing. OSes essentially do multiplexing. You get the
    illusion of many files on top of one disk, many processes on top
    of one CPU and memory array, many sockets on top of one Ethernet
    cable, many windows on top of one screen, etc. Forth refuses to
    do that. How can a sane person argue for not doing that, except
    for saving labor for oneself? Of course many machines for the
    same money are better than one. You can copy and paste data
    between them, for example. Damn useful. On Unix, clipboards never
    quite worked - they weren't a core feature. Problem. Forth
    systems take over the machine and refuse to multiplex them. Why
    would I use a Forth system?

    Features are a good thing.

    Regarding Chuck Moore's Forth apps: I had a hardware hacker look
    at the (wildly incomplete) documentation of Chuck's ColorForth
    hardware design toolchain. You know, the alternative to the very
    expensive Verilog/VHDL-based toolchains. Well, the guy skimmed
    through it, and reported that the basic model of hardware was
    very simplistic and you just couldn't do with those tools what
    you could do with the industry-standard expensive ones. But no
    matter: Chuck uses the tools to produce hardware with tiny gate
    count. Which themselves have few features and so aren't very
    competitive.

    I never fully believed the tails about Forth being 10x or 100x
    more efficient than the rest of the industry, but it took time to
    fully appreciate how hallucinated this claim really was.

#12 jhonan on 06.03.08 at 4:00 pm

    Thanks for this. Clarifies something for me.

    On Chuck Moore. Years ago I saw Chuck Moore give a talk in
    Sydney, showing off his PCB design system. This was astonishingly
    minimalist. He had three push buttons instead of a keyboard.
    Basically he showed a screen of characters and you cursored left/
    right up/down to select.

    Hard core.

    He didn't believe in pull-up resistors. So to determine if a line
    was floating or driven, he drove it low, read its value, drove it
    high and read the value again.

    However, it wasn't all insanity. He didn't believe in floating
    point. I admire that in a programmer, even as I myself contribute
    to global warming through heating up millions of transistors.

    Has the world gone insane? I really feel that your
    prgonostications are very valuable, but I suspect that these
    belong to a very, very minority view. Should you choose to expand
    in a job interview or application form, you'll be confronted by
    blank stares, if not hostility.

    Programming is all orthodoxy now. Trying to make stuff work, is
    like, you know, hard?

    Jamie

#13 Yossi Kreinin on 06.04.08 at 1:39 pm

    Not believing in floating point IS insanity. To an extent making
    it worth to write about it some time. I've spat blood over this
    for a lot of time, and I'm going to share my takeaways with
    humanity even if it couldn't care less.

    Chuck Moore kicks butt, but he is, put simply, an extremist. At
    its core, extremism is rooted in refusing to accept the existence
    of "unsolvable" problems and having to choose between two bad/
    suboptimal options. "Problem? LET'S FUCKING BLOW IT AWAY!!" It's
    a whole mindset, which I love, and quite some very talented
    people have it, but it's incompatible with reality. It's OK;
    compatibility with reality isn't everything. As long as both you
    and your worst natural enemies are unarmed.

    Interviews are a special genre, where one key thing you want to
    demonstrate is compatibility. An inevitable genre, but a sucky
    one. Blogging is surely better than interviewing. BTW, quite
    shockingly, apparently a couple of quite senior managers liked
    this article (WHAT?), while programmers tended to like it
    somewhat less. Aside from the fact that I feel like having just
    sucked up to the authorities, this is natural.
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    Schedules. (I'm not making fun of the managerial perspective,
    just of the terms and the less competent managers.) So this
    particular opinion of mine isn't that counter-mainstream, on the
    contrary; of course it doesn't make it a good thing to say in an
    interview, because you shouldn't be opinionated there.

    If I had to make a bet on the question whether the world or
    myself has gone insane, I'd bet on the second option, since it
    proved to be a safe bet in the past.

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#15 Eli on 11.27.08 at 8:55 am

    On one hand, I'm really glad you raise this topic. The struggle
    between dependencies and redundancy baffles everyone who writes
    large amounts of code, at one level or another. You've summarized
    the problem nicely.

    However, I disagree with the conclusions you reach. Dependencies
    can be managed. Yes, they can! With judicious use of a common
    code repository, source control and tests dependencies can be
    tamed enough to bring much more merit than harm. It may take some
    energy to manage them, but surely less than implementing your own
    command line parser, text lexer, hash table, math utils, ...you get
    the idea... for every project.

#16 Yossi Kreinin on 11.27.08 at 1:16 pm

    I agree that they can be managed, and at times they should be,
    I'm just saying that I'm not trusting code isn't managed already
    as a full-fledged module.

    In fact, more often than not I'm the maintainer of "shared
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    But experience in that made me believe Brook's numbers -
    something "generally usable" costs 9x-10x more development effort
    than something "locally usable". I think this number should be
    kept in mind when deciding to make something reusable, that's
    all; it doesn't mean "don't do it" - it can still pay off. I just
    hate it when people pitch their half-baked utilities as
    "infrastructure". I do understand their motivation though; in
    fact I wrote about that motivation in "The internal free market".

#17 Entity on 12.01.08 at 3:03 pm

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#18 Yossi Kreinin on 12.01.08 at 3:07 pm

    Sure. It's from The Mythical Man Month (a "classic" that I
    generally didn't like very much.)

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    result of the compounding of a 3x and another 3x. The first 3x
    was "generalizing the program's inputs and outputs" and the other
    3x was documentation and other polishing needed for "exporting"
    something. But I'm not sure.

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#20 rarecactus on 01.30.11 at 11:45 pm

    It's 2010. There is no reason to write your own command-line
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    casual search will turn up hundred of libraries, either with LGPL
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    The same is true for a lot of other problems. It's always best to
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    rush out to do something. And don't rule out the possibility that
    that library might be libc itself! For example, consider using
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    writing TheWorldsBillionthConfigFileParser.

    I agree with you that some programs just have excessive
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    impossible to come up with a hard and fast "rule" about when
    something is worth factoring out into a library.

#21 mp on 05.21.12 at 10:33 am

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    Sometimes even depending on one library can be a massive
    nightmare (C++ boost anyone?). But you can't say this to people
    because it goes against everything they have been taught about
    good software engineering practice and it makes you sound like
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#22 Yossi Kreinin on 05.21.12 at 9:43 pm

    Yeah, it's a good thing boost is pretty much banned where I work.

    As to what's considered "good practice" - I guess a lot of people
    are burnt by "independence extremists", for instance, people who
    clone someone else's (massive) chunks of code for the sake of
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#23 Phil on 08.13.12 at 11:14 pm

    "Utility trash can covering up the deficiencies of your language:
    BARF. Works for exactly once person and becomes a nightmare
    otherwise."

    This has not been my experience. Good fix-the-language libraries
    get used by everybody. Eventually they can become part of the
    stdlib for that language.

    "It's going to be neither small nor stable, and it will show up
    each time trouble surfaces. Give me one example of a
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    Every C standard header file, before it became part of the
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#24 Yossi Kreinin on 08.13.12 at 11:21 pm

    @Phil: let's say that I haven't contributed to the standard
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    the typical "fix the language" attempt is not worthy of becoming
    a part of a standard. I mean, in the same way you could say that
    one's own programming languages "tend to be used by everybody and
    eventually become standard" based on the examples of C, Perl,
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#25 lesto on 06.17.15 at 3:51 pm

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    dependency manager let you specify the RANGE of dependency, so
    you can fix it to Y.x.x and if rules are respected, problem
    shouldn't exist.
    Redundancy IMHO is the worst, and i can say I'm one of those who
    does NOT like to use external library as i often find them
    overkill and/or too complex for my goals; i just have a long
    series of repository, and git submodule (still have to really try
    subtree) is my friend

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#27 yossi kreinin on 06.18.15 at 9:07 pm

    If you expect your friends to malfunction once the page is
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    webmaster.

#28 Aristotle Pagaltzis on 06.21.15 at 5:18 am

    The existence of services like Pinboard's "archive every page I
    bookmark" subscriber tier shows that copy-pasting articles is
    obviously a ludicrous, ridiculous, and totally absurd notion. :-)

#29 Kyle Lahnakoski on 11.04.17 at 12:20 am

    Thank you for taking a position, even if I disagree. :)
    I would like for you to consider adding the module source code to
    your repo, and writing a facade to isolate you from its quirks
    and broken edge cases.
    1. The facade is wonderful for implementing your
    application-specific calling patterns, so the main code is easy
    to read; it's responsible for biolerplate necessary to use the
    module
    2. The facade is a good place to add related utility functions.
    3. Including source code protects you from breaking changes. You
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    4. Including source code allows you to fix bugs in a timely
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    If you happen to be working on a legacy system using g++ pre
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    broken and unusable. So what do you do when you require regular
    expression parsing capabilities?

    I encourage you to go ahead and write your own regular expression
    parser for the C++ language and use that instead of Boost. You
    can waste your entire career fixing all of the little edge cases.
    And then every time you make a fix please feel free to copy and
    paste that fix everywhere you use regular expressions -- Obviously
    you can't just fix it in one place and re-link your applications
    because of course you refuse to even depend on your own library
    because "dependencies are evil".

    Dependencies aren't the problem. Poor dependency management is
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    is so widespread though... There is a massive quantity of god awful
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    managing dependencies. It is very rare to come across a good
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