https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2251762-powerline-adapters-the-security-threat Home * News & Insights + News & Insights Home + Innovation + IT Careers & Skills + Cloud + Cyber Security + Future of Work + All Categories + Marketing + HR + Finance * Community + Ask question + Community Home + Spiceworks Originals + Cloud + Collaboration + Networking + Water Cooler + Windows + All forums + How-Tos + Scripts + Vendors + Meetups * Reviews * Online Events [ ] Login Join Login Join * Home * Networking * General Networking Powerline Adapters - the security threat Posted by deanmoncaster General Networking Last year i bought a house, i need to network the place up, rather than run ethernet all over the shop i decided that powerline adapters would be good as it is a new house with good cables. I get about 400MbPs through the lines and i am happy with that as my internet connection is only 200Mb and the only machine that will use the powerline is the one i use for storage of video so the speed isn't that important to me. However, for the past few months i have noticed that downloads on my XBOX using wifi connected to my internet router have been EXTREMELY SLOW! I was lucky to get 8Mbps on a 200Mbps line, i thought nothing of this and assumed that virgin were having problems. Fast forward onto last night and i turn my video file storage server on thinking i will watch a movie. I check the ip address on my laptop and i cannot find anything that starts 192.168.0.X which is my internal network. However my laptop has a 192.168.1.X ip address, which is strange because that isn't my ip addressing scheme. I try to connect to my video server and the ip doesn't work, which is strange because i have a DHCP reservation on my router. I do a network scan and i found out that 80% of my network is made of other devices. Devices that i dont own and never will, strangely enough the devices are named after my nextdoor neighbours. I go to the web interface of this networks default gateway. It is a BT router. BUT I USE VIRGIN MEDIA NOT BT!! then i realise, that possibly for the past 3 months my network has been exiting out of my house and receiving a DHCP address from next doors BT internet router and passing all network traffic into their house and down their 8Mbps internet connection. I do a bit more investigation and i see that they purchased a powerline (after my advice for them to get one because they needed networking) and that both my and their powerlines were in same network and my two devices were create a bridge between my electricity and theirs! I deleted their powerline from my network config but it made me realise that at any time i want, i can now "resync" my powerline which will add their network into my network and I will have full access to their entire network and vice versa so we can share movies etc. Has anyone else come across this situation where a powerline in 1 house can communicate with the powerline from nextdoor without any problems at all? We both basically had full access to each others network and could access each others files without either of us doing anything wrong! #Spice (17) Reply (16) flagReport deanmoncaster deanmoncaster This person is a Verified Professional This person is a verified professional. Verify your account to enable IT peers to see that you are a professional. datil Popular Topics in General Networking IP spoofing. What's the worst that could happen? Your solution for old scanners that cannot support SMB 2 or 3 Firewall port to Patch Panel port shutdown of port while trying to create a span port Router loses WAN connection over night View all topics 16 Replies * Graham C Graham C chipotle Have used these powerline adapters for years and whilst I haven't come across your situation I am sure the manuals etc. mention that it is a possibility for this to happen, depending on how the houses are wired. I believe that is why they offer functionality to set an encryption key on them, to secure your network from your neighbours. #Spice (5) flagReport Was this post helpful? thumb_up thumb_down * Da_Schmoo Da_Schmoo This person is a Verified Professional This person is a verified professional. Verify your account to enable IT peers to see that you are a professional. mace General Networking Expert + check 65 Best Answers + thumb_up 305 Helpful Votes Agreed - did you not have encryption enabled? #Spice (2) flagReport Was this post helpful? thumb_up thumb_down * Alex3031 Alex3031 This person is a Verified Professional This person is a verified professional. Verify your account to enable IT peers to see that you are a professional. mace Do you share main circuit breakers I didn't think Powerline could cross panels.... but it makes sense that it could happen based on the way Ethernet works. #Spice (1) flagReport Was this post helpful? thumb_up thumb_down * MorrisNTex MorrisNTex serrano I have seen something similar. A house across an alleyway was sharing internet with another house. In our area several houses will be on the same transformer. I think there is seven on the transformer my house is serviced by. From what I've read such devices would work for all houses/ buildings serviced by the same transformer. #Spice (2) flagReport Was this post helpful? thumb_up thumb_down * Gorfmaster1 Gorfmaster1 This person is a Verified Professional This person is a verified professional. Verify your account to enable IT peers to see that you are a professional. ghost chili I thought there was an encryption or a sync that has to happen before they would talk, maybe only certain brands will have that happen. Maybe it is a distance thing. I have never heard that and will have to investigate that further. The powerline adapter company must know about this by now and have a fix.... Edit: I did find some information on ways to secure the Powerline adapter, Maybe this will help. flagReport Was this post helpful? thumb_up thumb_down * deanmoncaster OP deanmoncaster This person is a Verified Professional This person is a verified professional. Verify your account to enable IT peers to see that you are a professional. datil Hi all, thanks for the replies, everything is secure now BUT i left my powerline devices default out of the box, all the devices use the same encryption key looking at it so next door was able to connect to my network and vice versa just by syncing, next door are not technically savvy so i doubt they accessed my side of the network, plus their network router was taking over the entire network traffic so they would have been on their network only not knowing any different! it wasn't until i started wondering why my ip address scheme was wrong that i realised i was on the wrong network! flagReport Was this post helpful? thumb_up thumb_down * Graham C Graham C chipotle Its kind of fortunate that there router became the dominant DHCP server because by the sound of it they wouldn't have noticed they were using your network / virgin broadband and its lovely 200Mbps connection. #Spice (2) flagReport 1 found this helpful thumb_up thumb_down * deanmoncaster OP deanmoncaster This person is a Verified Professional This person is a verified professional. Verify your account to enable IT peers to see that you are a professional. datil Very true, i am also tempted to say, "quit your internet and use mine" because they set up CCTV at the weekend and it covers my house too :D #Spice (1) flagReport Was this post helpful? thumb_up thumb_down * greggmh123 greggmh123 This person is a Verified Professional This person is a verified professional. Verify your account to enable IT peers to see that you are a professional. datil deanmoncaster wrote: Hi all, thanks for the replies, everything is secure now BUT i left my powerline devices default out of the box, all the devices use the same encryption key looking at it so next door was able to connect to my network and vice versa just by syncing, next door are not technically savvy so i doubt they accessed my side of the network, plus their network router was taking over the entire network traffic so they would have been on their network only not knowing any different! it wasn't until i started wondering why my ip address scheme was wrong that i realised i was on the wrong network! "... BUT i left my powerline devices default out of the box" Famous last words, regardless of the device! Gregg #Spice (2) flagReport Was this post helpful? thumb_up thumb_down * deanmoncaster OP deanmoncaster This person is a Verified Professional This person is a verified professional. Verify your account to enable IT peers to see that you are a professional. datil greggmh123 wrote: deanmoncaster wrote: Hi all, thanks for the replies, everything is secure now BUT i left my powerline devices default out of the box, all the devices use the same encryption key looking at it so next door was able to connect to my network and vice versa just by syncing, next door are not technically savvy so i doubt they accessed my side of the network, plus their network router was taking over the entire network traffic so they would have been on their network only not knowing any different! it wasn't until i started wondering why my ip address scheme was wrong that i realised i was on the wrong network! "... BUT i left my powerline devices default out of the box" Famous last words, regardless of the device! Gregg You are absolutely right, BUT they are meant to be isolated between power boxes on the electricity network, turns out our cables are too good and we can cross through the box (albeit with a massive reduction in speed!). flagReport Was this post helpful? thumb_up thumb_down * * Kenny8416 Kenny8416 This person is a Verified Professional This person is a verified professional. Verify your account to enable IT peers to see that you are a professional. ghost chili Very surprised at this, I always thought they couldn't cross out of the consumer unit / fuse box they were connected to I used them at an old employer and certainly couldn't get from one side of the building to the other as they crossed fuse boxes. I have one in my house but rarely used, (only when I want to update an old Raspberry Pie / retropie cabinet), think i'll double check the ISP router stats! #Spice (2) flagReport Was this post helpful? thumb_up thumb_down * JoeWilliams JoeWilliams This person is a Verified Professional This person is a verified professional. Verify your account to enable IT peers to see that you are a professional. EBS Computer Services is an IT service provider. mace Kenny8416 wrote: Very surprised at this, I always thought they couldn't cross out of the consumer unit / fuse box they were connected to I used them at an old employer and certainly couldn't get from one side of the building to the other as they crossed fuse boxes. In a commercial building the CUs may well be on different phases from the local transformer. I've had powerline adapters working fine across CUs that share the same supply head (which is not surprising - electrical path just goes through two extra breakers), and can see that in theory they could work on neighbouring installations on the same phase. Increased distance & noise would reduce speed and the likelihood of a reliable sync, but there's nothing in the electrical path that would completely block the signals. #Spice (1) flagReport Was this post helpful? thumb_up thumb_down * Shanetech74 Shanetech74 This person is a Verified Professional This person is a verified professional. Verify your account to enable IT peers to see that you are a professional. datil Im thinking the electric circuits are done differently in the U.K vs the U.S. Can anyone verify this? #Spice (1) flagReport Was this post helpful? thumb_up thumb_down * JoeWilliams JoeWilliams This person is a Verified Professional This person is a verified professional. Verify your account to enable IT peers to see that you are a professional. EBS Computer Services is an IT service provider. mace Shanetech74 wrote: Im thinking the electric circuits are done differently in the U.K vs the U.S. Can anyone verify this? Yes, definitely. Residential buildings here have one 240V phase and a neutral. The three phases from the local transformer (step-down from 415V IIRC) will be split evenly across the properties it serves. Commercial/industrial buildings generally have 3 phase supplies, split into single phase for office equipment if required or presented as 3 phase for plant. I believe that houses in the US generally have two 120V phases and a neutral, giving you two 120v phases for normal equipment and the ability to present 240v for high current applications like dryers? Internal wiring standards and conventions vary quite a lot too. #Spice (3) flagReport 1 found this helpful thumb_up thumb_down * Chris2741 Chris2741 tabasco JoeWilliams wrote: Shanetech74 wrote: Im thinking the electric circuits are done differently in the U.K vs the U.S. Can anyone verify this? Yes, definitely. Residential buildings here have one 240V phase and a neutral. The three phases from the local transformer (step-down from 415V IIRC) will be split evenly across the properties it serves. Commercial/industrial buildings generally have 3 phase supplies, split into single phase for office equipment if required or presented as 3 phase for plant. I believe that houses in the US generally have two 120V phases and a neutral, giving you two 120v phases for normal equipment and the ability to present 240v for high current applications like dryers? Internal wiring standards and conventions vary quite a lot too. You are correct. In the USA it's 2 120v phases and a neutral. Dryers, Stoves, HVAC, etc., will get 2 hot legs plus the neutral in order to get their 240v. In my part of the country, 2-4 houses will share one transformer, and every once in a while RFI from the neighbors will feed up my line and into the baby monitor or ham radio rig. For that reason I'm not entirely surprised that powerline ethernet could feed back up the line and to the neighbors who are on the same transformer as I am. Moral of the story: never, ever, ever leave any piece of network hardware on factory defaults. #Spice (1) flagReport Was this post helpful? thumb_up thumb_down * deanmoncaster OP deanmoncaster This person is a Verified Professional This person is a verified professional. Verify your account to enable IT peers to see that you are a professional. datil I know diddly squat about electronics and electricity apart from the things you guys have said kinda sound familiar so i go with your superior knowledge. I left everything default on my powerlines because i was only connecting the most sporadically used device to it, never using it for anything worthwhile (hell it is still windows 7!) but once i realised my entire network was being rerouted....that was when i started to worry. Virgin claim their wireless boxes fight your wifi battles for you. My virgin box couldn't even win the DHCP battle against a disperate network and that was with my wireless devices connecting directly to it! flagReport Was this post helpful? thumb_up thumb_down lock This topic has been locked by an administrator and is no longer open for commenting. To continue this discussion, please ask a new question. Read these next... * What happens to my environment if my Vmware license expires? What happens to my environment if my Vmware license expires? 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