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Stanislav Grof interviews Dr. Albert Hofmann
Esalen Institute, Big Sur, California, 1984

Editor's note: This remarkable dialogue from 1984 has never been
published. We're printing it now in part to provide historical
context for a new effort, in which MAPS is participating, to restart
LSD psychotherapy research in the United States. In addition, this
dialogue addresses and helps clarify the idealist view of the
potential value of psychedelics, when used properly, to help
"engender ecological sensitivity, reverence for life, and capacity
for peaceful cooperation with other people and other species,"
qualities that are desperately needed in these times of terrorism and
war.

PDF version of this document  #
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Grof: It is a great pleasure and an honor for me this morning to
welcome and introduce Dr. Albert Hofmann, to the extent to which he
needs introduction at all. As you all know, he became world famous
for his discovery of a compound that is probably the most
controversial substance ever developed by man, diethylamide of
lysergic acid, or LSD-25. When LSD made its entry into the world of
science, it became an overnight sensation because of its remarkable
effects and also its unprecedented potency. It seemed to hold
tremendous promise in the research of the nature and etiology of
schizophrenia, as an extraordinary therapeutic agent, as a very
unconventional tool for training of mental health professionals, and
as a source of inspiration for artists.
      Dr. Hofmann's discovery of LSD generated a powerful wave of
interest in brain chemistry and, together with the development of
tranquilizers, was directly responsible for what has been called the
"golden age of psychopharmacology." And then his prodigious child
became a "problem child". This extraordinarily promising chapter in
psychology and psychiatry was drastically interrupted by unsupervised
mass self-experimentation and the ensuing repressive administrative,
legislative, and political measures, as well as the chromosome scare
and the abuse by the military and secret police. But I firmly believe
that this chapter is far from being closed. Whether or not LSD
research and therapy as such will return into modern society, the
discoveries that psychedelics made possible have profound
revolutionary implications for our understanding of the psyche, human
nature, and the nature of reality. And these new insights are here to
stay as an important part of the emerging scientific world view of
the future.
      Before we start this interview, I would like to add a little
personal note. Dr. Hofmann's discovery of LSD and his work, in
general, have had a profound impact on my own professional and
personal life, for which I am immensely grateful. My first LSD
session in 1956, when I was a beginning psychiatrist, was a critical
landmark and turning point for me and since then my life has never
been the same. So this interview gives me the opportunity to express
my deep appreciation and gratitude to Dr. Hofmann for the influence
he has had on my life. What I would like to ask you first has
something to do with the way people tend to qualify your discovery of
the psychedelic effects of LSD. It is usually referred to as a pure
accident, implying that there was nothing more involved in this
entire matter than your fortuitous intoxication. But I know from you
that the history was somewhat more complex than that. Can you clarify
this for us?

Hofmann: Yes, it is true that my discovery of LSD was a chance
discovery, but it was the outcome of planned experiments and these
experiments took place in the framework of systematic pharmaceutical,
chemical research. It could better be described as serendipity. That
means that you look for something, you have a certain plan, and then
you find something else, different, that may nevertheless be useful.
      And that is exactly what happened with LSD. I had developed a
method for the synthesis of lysergic acid amides in the context of a
systematic study, the purpose of which was to synthesize natural
ergot alkaloids. At that time, in the 1930s, a new ergot alkaloid had
been discovered which is named ergometrine, or ergonovine. It is the
real active principle of ergot. The presence of this alkaloid in
ergot is the reason why it has been used in obstetrics to stop
uterine bleeding and as an oxytoxic. And this substance turned out to
be an amide of lysergic acid.
      Until the late 1930s, it had not been possible to prepare such
substances in the laboratory. I discovered a technical procedure that
made it possible and was able to achieve partial synthesis of
ergonovine; I then also used this procedure to prepare other
lysergamides. First came the modifications of ergonovine and one of
these modifications, methergine, a homologue of ergonovine, is today
the leading medicament in obstetrics to stop postpartum bleeding. I
also used this procedure to prepare not so close derivatives of
ergonovine, more different than methergine. And one of these
compounds was LSD-25, lysergic acid diethylamide. The plan, the
intention I had, was to prepare an analeptic, a circulatory and
breathing stimulant.

Grof: Was there some indication in the early animal experiments that
LSD could be an activating agent?

Hofmann: No, I made LSD because it is an analog of coramine, which is
diethylamide of nicotinic acid. Because of the structural
relationship between LSD and the ring of the nicotinic acid, I hoped
to get an analeptic. But our pharmacologist concluded that lysergic
acid diethylamide did not have any clinically interesting properties
and suggested that it be dropped out of research. That happened in
the year 1938. But all along, I had a strange feeling that we should
again test this substance on a broader scale. Then, five years later,
in 1943, I finally decided to synthesize another sample of LSD. At
the end of the synthesis, something very strange happened. I got into
a dreamlike condition, in which all of my surrounding was
transforming. My experience of reality had changed and it was rather
agreeable. In any case, I left the laboratory, went home, lay down
and enjoyed a nice dreamlike state which then passed away.

Grof: Did you immediately suspect that this was an intoxication from
the drug you were working with?

Hofmann: I had the suspicion that it was caused by something from the
laboratory, but I believed that it could have been caused by the
solvent I had used at that time. I had used dichlorethylene,
something like chloroform, in the very final state of preparation.
So, the next day in the laboratory, I tried the solvent and nothing
happened. Then I considered the possibility that it might have been
the substance I had prepared. But it did not make any sense. I knew I
was very careful and my work was very clean. And, of course, I did
not taste anything.
      But I was open to the fact that, maybe, some trace of the
substance had in some way passed into my body. That, maybe, a drop of
the solution had come onto my fingertips and, when I rubbed my eyes,
it got into the conjunctival sacs. But, if this compound was the
reason for this strange experience I had, then it had to be very,
very active. That was clear from the very beginning because I had not
ingested anything. I was puzzled and decided to conduct some
experiments to clear up this thing, to find out what was the reason
for that extraordinary condition I had experienced.
      Being a cautious man, I started this experiment with only 0.25
milligrams (the ergot alkaloids are usually administered in milligram
dosages). That is an extremely low dose and I expected it would not
have any activity. I thought I would increase very cautiously the
quantity of LSD in subsequent experiments to see if any of the
dosages were active. It turned out that when I ingested this quarter
of a milligram, I had taken a very strong, a very high dosage of a
very, very active compound. I got into a strange state of
consciousness. Everything in my surroundings changed - the colors,
the forms, and also the feeling of my ego had changed. It was very
strange! And I became very anxious that I had taken too much and I
asked my assistant to accompany me home. At that time we had no car
available and we went home by bicycle.

Grof: Many people who have taken LSD, particularly in such a high
dose, have a lot of respect for that ride. They realize what it is to
ride a bicycle in that kind of a condition.

Hofmann: During this trip home on the bicycle - it was about four
kilometers - I had the feeling that I could not move from the spot. I
was cycling, cycling, but the time seemed to stand still. In my
report afterward, I mentioned this trip on the bicycle to show that
LSD affected the experience of time, as an example of the distortion
of the sense of time. Then the bicycle trip became a characteristic
aspect of the LSD discovery. As we arrived home, I was in a very,
very bad condition. It was such a strange reality, such a strange new
universe which I had entered, that I believed I had now become
insane. I asked my assistant to call the doctor. When the doctor
arrived, I told him that I was dying. I had the feeling that my body
had absolutely no feeling any more. He tested me and shook his head,
because everything was OK.
      Then, my condition became worse and worse. When I was lying on
my couch, I had the feeling that I had already died. I believed, I
had a sense that I was out of my body. It was a terrifying
experience! The doctor did not give me anything, but I drank a lot of
milk, as an unspecific detoxicant. After about six hours, the
experience of the outer world started to change. I had the feeling of
coming back from a very strange land, home to our everyday reality.
      And it was a very, very happy feeling and a very beautiful
experience. After some time, with my eyes closed, I began to enjoy
this wonderful play of colors and forms, which it really was a
pleasure to observe. Then I went to sleep and the next day I was
fine. I felt quite fresh, like a newborn. It was an April day and I
went out into the garden. It had been raining during the night. I had
the feeling that I saw the earth and the beauty of nature as it had
been when it was created, at the first day of creation. It was a
beautiful experience! I was reborn, seeing nature in quite a new
light.

Grof: We have seen this kind of sequence, the death-rebirth process,
very regularly in psychedelic sessions. Many people link this
experience to the memory of their biological birth. I wanted to ask
you, if during the time when it was happening, it was just an
encounter with death or if you also had the feeling that you were
involved in a biological birthing process?

Hofmann: No, the first phase was a very terrifying experience,
because I did not know if I would recover. First, I had the feeling
that I was insane and then I had the feeling I was dying. But then,
when I was coming back, I had of course the feeling of rebirth.

Grof: When did you become aware that this drug could be of
significance to psychiatry?

Hofmann: Immediately! I knew immediately that this drug would have
importance for psychiatry! But, at that time, I would never have
believed that this substance could be used in the drug scene, just
for pleasure. For me it was a deep and mystical experience and not
just an everyday pleasurable one. I never had the idea that it could
be used as a pleasure drug. And then, soon after my experience, LSD
came into the hands of psychiatrists. The son of my boss at that
time, Dr. Werner Stoll, who was working at the Burghoeltzli
Psychiatric Institute in Zurich, conducted the initial experiments
with LSD.
      First, we checked it in our laboratory, because the head of the
Chemical Department, Professor Stoll, and the head of the
Pharmacology Department, Professor Rothlin, said that what I was
telling them was not possible. They told me: "You must have made a
mistake when you measured the dosage. It is impossible that such a
low dosage could have an effect." And Professor Rothlin then made an
experiment with two of his assistants. They took only one fifth of
what I had taken, 50 micrograms, to check it out. And even then, they
had a full-blown experience!

Grof: So, this was, in a nutshell, the story of the discovery of LSD.
And then we come to the next important chapter of your psychedelic
research, the isolation and identification of the active principles
of the magic mushrooms of the Mazatec Indians in Mexico. How long
after the discovery of the psychedelic effects of LSD did Gordon
Wasson contact you?

Hofmann: For the first ten years, LSD was my "wonder child", we had a
positive reaction from everywhere in the world. Around two thousand
publications about it appeared in scientific journals and everything
was fine. Then, at the beginning of the 1960s, here in the United
States, LSD became a drug of abuse. In a short time, this wave of
popular use swept the country and it became "drug number one". It was
then used without caution and people were not prepared and informed
about its deep effects. And then all kinds of things happened, which
caused LSD to become an infamous drug. It was a troublesome time!
Telephones, panic, and alarm! This had happened, that had
happened...it was a breakdown. Instead of a "wonder child", LSD
suddenly became my "problem child".
      I saw in the newspaper a notice that an American amateur
mycologist and ethnologist, Gordon Wasson, and his wife had
discovered mushrooms which were used in a ritual way by the Indians.
These mushrooms seemed to contain a hallucinogen that produced an
LSD-like effect. Of course, I did not know who these ethnologists
were, but I certainly was interested in investigating these
mushrooms. Then, I got a letter from Professor Heim, a French
mycologist from the Sorbonne in Paris. Mr. Wasson and his wife, who
had discovered this very old Mexican mushroom cult and had published
information about the ritual use of these mushrooms, had sent him
some samples. They had asked him if he could examine the mushrooms
and make a precise botanical investigation.
      Professor Heim tried to isolate the active principle from the
mushrooms, but did not succeed. Gordon Wasson had also initiated
chemical studies of the mushrooms in the United States, at the
University of Delaware, but this work had not brought any positive
results either. And so Professor Heim, who knew about the work we had
done with LSD in Basel, asked me in his letter if I would be
interested in taking on this research. So, in this way, LSD attracted
the mushrooms to come into my laboratory.
      At first, we had only 200 or 300 grams of these mushrooms. We
tested them in animals, since we had some experience with LSD and we
knew what kind of pharmacological activity could be expected from
such psychoactive principles. We did not find anything and our
pharmacologist suggested that the mushrooms probably were not active
at all, that they were the wrong mushrooms, or that they had lost
their activity when they had been dried in Paris. In any case, to
clear the problem, I decided to make a self-experiment. I took a
dosage that was mentioned in the prescriptions in the old chronicles
- 2.4 grams of dried mushrooms - and I had a full-blown LSD
experience.
      And it was very strange. I took it in the laboratory and I had
to go home, because I had again taken a dosage that was rather high.
At home, everything looked Mexican - the rooms and surroundings -
although I had never been in Mexico before. I thought that I must
have imagined all that, because I knew that the mushrooms had come
from Mexico. For example, I had a colleague, a doctor who supervised
me for this experiment. When he checked my blood pressure, I saw him
as an Aztec. He had a German face, but for me he became an Aztec
priest and I had the feeling he would open my chest and take out my
heart. It was really an absolutely Mexican experience!
      After a few hours, I came back from the Mexican landscape and I
knew that we had not used the right tests. The work with animals
would not have taken us anywhere; we had to test the activity (of the
various amounts) in humans. And from then on, my colleagues and I
tested personally all the extracts we made from the mushrooms. We
extracted them with different solvents and used fractionating
procedures to isolate the active principles.

Grof: How many steps did it take you from the beginning to the end to
identify chemically the active principles?

Hofmann: We had about five or six steps. Finally, we ended up with a
very small quantity, several milligrams of concentrated material that
was still amorphous. And we could use it to make a paper
chromatogram. It turned out that the substance was concentrated in
four phases. We cut the paper chromatogram and four of my colleagues
and I ate these fractions. When one turned out to be active, then we
could make some tests with this fraction, crystallize it, get the
color reaction specific for it, and so on. Finally, we were able to
isolate the active principles and it turned out to be two substances,
which I named psilocybin and psilocin because they had been isolated
from Psilocybe mexicana. Most of these magic mushrooms used by the
Indians belong to the genus Psilocybe. Then, when we had these
substances, we sent them for pharmacological testing. It turned out
that they were about a hundred times less active than LSD, but still
very active. It means that about 5 to 10 milligrams is the active
dose. Later I received a letter from Professor Moore in Delaware, who
congratulated us for solving the problem of the mushrooms. He and his
team had worked for more than a year trying to isolate the active
principles from these mushrooms and were not able to do it. They had
tested all their extracts in animals, all kinds of animals, even
fish, but were not able to find a lead. The reason for our success
was that we used our own team for testing the fractions and did not
rely on animal experiments. Professor Moore then sent me the rest of
these mushrooms; after all this work, he still had about 12 kilograms
left.

Grof: What was the overall time that it took you to identify the
active alkaloids?

Hofmann: About half a year. Having chemically identified these
substances, we were then able to synthesize them in the laboratory.
We were able to use the basic materials we had on hand from the LSD
research, namely derivatives of tryptamine which could now be used
for the synthesis of psilocybin, and psilocin. Gordon Wasson, who was
a banker by profession and an amateur mycologist, was very impressed
by the results. He did not know what active principles meant; for him
it was the mushrooms that were the active agent. He came to Basel to
visit us and I showed him these active principles in a pure
crystalline form. It turned out that only about 0.5% of the mushrooms
represents the active principles. Instead of 5 grams of the mushrooms
you can take 25 milligrams of psilocybin. Gordon was quite fascinated
to see these crystals and then he said: "Oh, by the way, there is
another magic drug the Indians use which has not yet been studied
scientifically. It is called ololiuqui.

Grof: And so began another important chapter of your research.

Hofmann: Yes. I went with Gordon Wasson to Mexico to study the other
magic plant materials, ololiuqui (morning glory seeds) and Salvia
divinorum, a new Salvia species that the Indians also used like the
mushrooms. We visited Maria Sabina, the curandera or the shaman woman
who had given the mushrooms to the Wassons. They were probably the
first white people who ever ingested the mushrooms during the sacred
ceremony. It was already late summer or beginning of fall and there
were no more mushrooms. We explained to Maria Sabina that we had
isolated the spirit of the mushrooms and that it was now in these
little pills. She was fascinated and agreed to make a ceremony for
us.
      To participate in the ceremony, you always have to have a
reason. The mushroom ceremony is a consultation, like going to a
doctor or a psychiatrist if you have some problems. Gordon told Maria
Sabina: "I left New York three weeks ago and my daughter had to go to
the hospital to have a child. I don't know what happened with her.
Can the mushroom tell me what happened with my daughter?" So that was
the reason they made a ceremony for us. It involved Maria Sabina, her
daughters, and other shaman colleagues and it was a beautiful
ceremony.

Grof: I understand that, on this occasion, Maria Sabina gave you the
official "seal of approval," that after having taken the pills, she
actually confirmed that their effects were identical to those of the
magic mushrooms.

Hofmann: Yes. I gave her for the ceremony tablets of the synthetic
psilocybin. I knew that she used a certain number of mushrooms and I
assessed the corresponding quantity of tablets. We used them and it
was really a full-blown wonderful ceremony which lasted until the
morning. When we left, Maria Sabina told us that these tablets really
contained the spirit of the mushrooms. I gave her a bottle of them
and she said: "I can now also perform the ceremonies during the times
when we have no more mushrooms."

Grof: How did you now move from your mushroom research to the work
with ololiuqui?

Hofmann: I got the supply of ololiuqui, seeds of a certain morning
glory family, from Gordon Wasson. Gordon got them from a Zapotec
Indian who had collected them for him. These seeds, like the
mushrooms, were used in ceremonies for a kind of magic healing and
for divination. We were able to isolate the active principles
responsible for the effect of these seeds and I was quite astonished
to find out that these seeds contained as the active principles
monoamid and hydroxyethylamid of lysergic acid and a bit of
ergonovine. These were derivatives of lysergic acid which I had on my
shelf through my studies with LSD. I initially could not believe that
this was possible, because the lysergic acid derivatives I had worked
with before were produced by a fungus.

Grof: And the morning glory seeds come from flowering plants that
belong botanically to an entirely different category.

Hofmann: Yes, these plants belong to two very different stages of
evolution in the plant kingdom, which are quite remote from each
other. And it is absolutely unusual to find the same chemical
products in quite different stages of plant evolution.

Grof: I have heard that, at the beginning, your colleagues actually
accused you, saying that you must have contaminated your samples from
the ololiuqui research with the products of your LSD work that you
kept in your laboratory. Knowing how meticulous your work is, that
was quite an outrageous accusation!

Hofmann: That is true. I gave the first report on this work in 1960,
at the International Conference on Natural Products in Sydney. When I
presented my results, my colleagues shook their heads and said: "It
is impossible that you find the same active principles in a quite
different section of the plant kingdom. You are working with all
kinds of lysergic acid derivatives; you must have mixed up something
and that is the reason." But finally, of course, they checked it and
confirmed our results. That was the closing of a kind of magic
circle. I started with the lysergic acid amides - methergine and LSD
- and LSD attracted the mushrooms. The mushrooms then brought the
ololiuqui and the work with ololiuqui took me back to lysergic acid
amides. My magic circle!

Grof: Have you actually tried the ololiuqui yourself?

Hofmann: Yes, I did. But, of course, it is about ten times less
active; to get a good effect, you need one to two milligrams.

Grof: And what was that experience like?

Hofmann: The experience had some strong narcotic effect, but at the
same time there was a very strange sense of voidness. In this Void,
everything loses its meaning. It is a very mystical experience.

Grof: Usually, when you read the psychedelic literature there is a
distinction being made between the so-called natural psychedelics,
such as psilocybin, psilocin, mescaline, harmaline, or ibogaine,
which are produced by various plants (and this applies even more to
psychedelic plants themselves) and synthetic psychedelics that are
artificially produced in the laboratory. And LSD, which is
semi-synthetic and thus a substance that was produced in the
laboratory, is usually included among the latter. I understand that
you have a very different feeling about it.

Hofmann: Yes. When I discovered lysergic acid amides in ololiuqui, I
realized that LSD is really just a small chemical modification of a
very old sacred drug of Mexico. LSD belongs, therefore, by its
chemical structure and by its activity, in the group of the magic
plants of Mesoamerica. It does not occur in nature as such, but it
represents just a small chemical variation of natural material.
Therefore, it belongs to this group as a chemical and also, of
course, because of its effect and its spiritual potential. The use of
LSD in the drug scene can thus be seen as a profanation of a sacred
substance. And this profanation is the reason that LSD has not had
beneficial effects in the drug scene. In many instances, it actually
produced terrifying and deleterious effects instead of beneficial
effects, because of misuse, because it was a profanation. It should
have been subjected to the same taboos and the same reverence the
Indians had toward these substances. If that approach had been
transferred to LSD, LSD would never have had such a bad reputation.

Grof: Let me move to another subject. Can you tell us something about
the attempts to isolate the active alkaloids from Salvia divinorum?

Hofmann: Yes. When I was in Mexico, we also encountered another plant
that the Indians used ritually, like ololiuqui or like the mushrooms.
It was a member of the Salvia species which had not been botanically
identified. After a long trip into Sierra Mazateca, we finally found
a curandera who conducted a ceremony with this plant and we had the
opportunity to have an experience with it. Gordon Wasson, my wife,
and myself ingested the juice of fresh leaves and experienced some
effects, but it was very mild. It was a clear-cut effect, but
different from the mushrooms.

Grof: Have you attempted the isolation and chemical identification of
the active principle from Salvia divinorum?

Hofmann: I took the leaves and made extracts from them by pressing
out the juice. I took this extract to Basel to my laboratory and
wanted to chemically analyze it, but it was no longer active. It
seems that the active principle is very easily destroyed and the
problem of chemical analysis is not yet solved. But we were able to
establish the botanical identity of this plant. It was determined at
the Botanical Department at Harvard that it was a new species of
Salvia and it got the name Salvia divinorum. It is a wrong name, bad
Latin; it should be actually Salvia divinatorum. They do not know
very good Latin, these botanists. I was not very happy with the name
because Salvia divinorum means "Salvia of the ghosts", whereas Salvia
divinatorum, the correct name, means "Salvia of the priests", But it
is now in the botanical literature under the name Salvia divinorum.

Grof: Was it Dr. Richard Schultes at Harvard who identified the
plant?

Hofmann: No, it was done in the same Institute, but by two other
botanists; they were the ones who gave it the name.

Grof: Was this the end of your research of psychedelic substances?
Have you been interested since then in any other psychedelic plants?
And have you made any more attempts at identifying some of their
active principles?

Hofmann: No. No more.

Grof: Was this work interrupted because of the political and
administrative problems at Sandoz caused by the unsupervised use? Do
you think you would have otherwise continued in this work? And would
you have liked to carry on?

Hofmann: Yes, I have already said that the abuse and misuse in the
drug scene brought many troubles to our company. Then came the legal
restrictions from the health authorities in nearly all countries and,
of course, management of our company was no longer interested in
pursuing this avenue of research.

Grof: I would like to ask you now about another project, your work
with Gordon Wasson concerning the Mysteries of Eleusis. In your book
The Road to Eleusis, you suggest the possibility that it was a
psychedelic cult that actually existed and practiced for almost 2000
years, from 1400 BC to 400 AD. And even then people did not just lose
interest in it, but it was terminated by an edict of the Christian
emperor Theodosius who prohibited and suppressed all pagan
ceremonies.

Hofmann: In professional circles of Greek scholars, it is absolutely
clear that the ancient Greeks used some psychoactive substance in
their cult. There exist many references to a sacred beverage, kykeon,
that was administered to the initiates after preparations which took
one week. After the adepts got this potion, they had, all together,
powerful mystic experiences that they were not allowed to talk about
and describe exactly. I had worked about twenty years ago with the
Greek scholar, Professor Kerenyi, on this problem.
      The interesting question is: what were really the ingredients
of this kykeon, this sacred potion? We had studied many plants that
Professor Kerenyi had suggested as possible candidates, but they were
not at all psychedelic. Then came Gordon Wasson with his hypothesis;
naturally, it involved mushrooms, because he saw mushrooms
everywhere! He asked me, if the men in Greek antiquity had the
possibility to prepare a psychedelic potion from ergot. He came to
this idea, because the Mysteries of Eleusis were founded by the
Goddess Demeter and Demeter is the goddess of grain and ergot
(Mutterkorn). That gave him the idea that ergot could be involved in
the preparation of kykeon.
      I had all the materials at hand because, as part of our studies
of ergot, we had collected all the literature and also many samples
of ergot from all around the world. This included the ergot that was
growing in the Mediterranean basin, in Greece, and so on. One or two
of these wild ergots growing on grasses can also be found in rye
fields or in barley fields. Rye did not exist in antiquity, but
barley did, and in barley fields you can find certain wild ergots.
      We had found and analyzed all this ergot before Gordon asked me
his question and in one species growing on wild grass (Paspalum) we
had found exactly the same components as in ololiuqui. Its main
components were lysergic acid amide, lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide,
and also lysergic acid propanolamide (ergonovine). Therefore, I had
no difficulty answering Gordon's question: Man in antiquity had the
possibility to prepare a psychedelic potion from ergot. He had to
just collect the ergot, grind it, and put it into the kykeon.
      Gordon, pursuing the problem of kykeon, addressed not only me,
as a chemist, but also a Greek scholar Professor Carl Ruck at
Harvard, who was a specialist on the role of medicinal plants in
Greek mythology and Greek history. Professor Ruck was able to direct
Gordon to some allusions in the Hymn to Demeter that provided support
for his hypothesis. These passages mentioned that, indeed, there was
some kind of ergot which was used to make this kykeon psychedelic.
And the three of us then co-authored a book, which explored this
evidence.

Grof: That was the book The Road to Eleusis?

Hofmann: Yes, that was The Road to Eleusis, which was published here
in the United States and also came out in some other languages, such
as Spanish and German.

Grof: You describe in this book that you actually did a
self-experiment with one of the natural ergot alkaloids to test this
hypothesis, to see if it was psychedelic. Was it ergonovine?

Hofmann: Yes, we had found active principles in this ergot which
grows in Greece. It contained lysergic acid amide and
hydroxyethylamide, about which it was already known that they were
psychedelic. But it was not known if ergonovine had some psychedelic
effects and I was interested to find out. Ergonovine had been used
already for many decades in obstetrics without any reports that it
had been psychedelic. But the dosage which is injected to women in
childbirth, is only 0.5 mg and 0.25 mg. I tested it up to 2 mg and,
in that dosage, it had clearly psychedelic effects. It had not been
discovered earlier, because when it is administered, women are just
at the end of the process of delivery. They are thus in a state in
which they are not very good observers and, in addition, the dosage
is too low to produce psychedelic effects. Methergine and ergonovine
also produce psychedelic effects but in higher doses.

Grof: It is a very interesting hypothesis, because it gives a
plausible answer to the intriguing question: What was it that was
being offered at Eleusis? What could possibly have been so powerful
and interesting that it kept the attention of the ancient world for
almost two thousand years without interruption? And that it attracted
so many exceptional and illustrious people? Also the fact that it was
such a strongly guarded secret - the punishment for revealing the
secret of the mysteries was death - suggests that something quite
extraordinary, something extremely important was happening there.

Hofmann: It was a very important spiritual center for nearly 2000
years. All we have to do is to look at all the famous people, who for
thousands of years in the world of antiquity, in the Roman and Greek
world, were introduced to the Mysteries of Eleusis. For us it was a
very interesting problem to find out what the initiates really
ingested. There were two families in Eleusis who knew the secret of
the kykeon, two generations of families who conserved the secret.

Grof: One often hears that the use of psychedelic materials is alien
to the Western culture, that it is something that is practiced in
pre-literate human groups, in "primitive" societies. The enormous
effect that the death/rebirth mysteries of various kinds must have
had on the Greek culture, which is generally considered the cradle of
European civilization, must be the best kept secret in human history.
Many of the great figures of antiquity, such as philosophers Plato,
Aristotle, and Epictetus, the playwright Euripides, military leader
Alkibiades, Roman statesman and lawyer Cicero, and others were
initiates of these mysteries, whether it was the Eleusinian variety
or some other forms - the Dionysian rites, the mysteries of Attis and
Adonis, Mithraic or Korybantic mysteries, and the Orphic cult.

Hofmann: It shows again that in old times, and also in our time among
the Indian tribes, psychedelic substances were considered sacred and
they were used with the right attitude and in a ritual and spiritual
context. What a difference if we compare it with the careless and
irresponsible use of LSD in the streets and in the discotheques of
New York City and everywhere in the West. It is a tragic
misunderstanding of the nature and the meaning of these kinds of
substances.

Grof: I would now like to move away from these cultural and
historical explorations and go back to chemistry. Although
pharmacology is not your primary interest, I would like to ask you a
question about the mechanism of the action of LSD. There does not
seem to be unanimity as to why LSD is psychoactive and there are
several competing hypotheses about it. Do you have any ideas in this
regard?

Hofmann: We have done some research that is related to this question.
We labeled LSD with radioactive carbon, C14. That makes it possible
to follow its metabolic fate in the organism. Strangely enough, we
found, of course in animals, that 90% of the LSD is excreted very
quickly and only 10% of it goes into the brain. And in the brain it
goes into the hypothalamus and that is where the emotional functions
are located. This corresponds also to the fact that it is primarily
the emotional sphere that is stimulated by LSD. The rational spheres
are rather inhibited.
      And, of course, it is not LSD that produces these deep psychic
changes. The action of LSD can be understood only in terms of its
interaction with the chemical processes in the brain which underlie
the psychic functions. Since LSD is a substance, its action can be
described only in terms of interaction with other substances and with
the structures in the brain, the receptors, and so on. One of the
popular hypotheses was, for example, the  serotonin hypothesis' of
the British researchers Woolley and Shaw. It was found that LSD is a
very specific and strong inhibitor of serotonin in some biological
systems. And since serotonin plays a very important role in the
chemistry of neurophysiological functions in the brain, this was seen
as the mechanism underlying its psychological effects.
      Since this antagonism between LSD and serotonin was very strong
and specific, our pharmacologist was very interested to find out, if
there are serotonin antagonists without hallucinogenic effect. This
was not only an interesting theoretical question, but a matter of
some practical interest, because serotonin is involved in the
mechanism of migraine headaches and in certain information processes.
A serotonin antagonist without psychedelic effects could be used as a
medicament.

Grof: This was the reason why 2-brominated LSD, a strong serotonin
antagonist without psychedelic effects, was so important?

Hofmann: We made all kinds of LSD derivatives. Also among them was
the 2-brominated LSD, which turned out to have strong anti-serotonin
effect, but without any psychedelic effects. After that finding, the
 serotonin hypothesis' could not be sustained any more. Another
problem was that the serotonin antagonism is not studied in the
brain, but on peripheral biological preparations.

Grof: Then there is, of course, the complex question of the blood/
brain barrier; which of the substances that show peripheral
antagonism are actually allowed to enter the brain?

Hofmann: Yes. LSD also has effects on other transmitters, such as
dopamine and adrenaline and it is very complicated. For this reason,
LSD was a very useful and influential tool in brain research and has
remained that until this very day.

Grof: I am very interested in one particular hypothesis concerning
the effects of LSD. It was formulated by Dr. Harold Abramson and his
team in New York City. On the basis of some animal experiments,
particularly with the Siamese fighting fish (Betta splendens), they
came to the conclusion that the most relevant aspect of the LSD
effect involves the enzymatic transfer of oxygen on the subcellular
level. For me this was interesting, because it could account for the
similarity between the LSD effects and the experiences associated
with the process of dying. And there might also be connections to the
effects of the holotropic breathwork that my wife Christina and I
have developed. Unfortunately, it seems that this research remained
limited to that one paper; I have not seen any additional supportive
evidence for this hypothesis.

Hofmann: There was another hypothesis, where the emphasis was, I
believe, on the effect of LSD on the degradation of adrenaline and
noradrenaline leading to abnormal oxidation products (Hoffer and
Osmond's adrenochrome and adrenolutine hypothesis). But none of this
has been confirmed and the question of the effective mechanisms of
LSD is still open. In addition, it is important to realize that there
is an enormous leap from chemistry to psychological experience. There
are limits to what this basic chemical background can tell us about
consciousness.

Grof: If I understand you correctly, you feel, very much like I do
myself, that even if we could explain all the biochemical and
neurophysiological changes in the neurons, we are still confronted
with this quantum leap from biochemical and electrical processes to
consciousness that seems unbridgeable.

Hofmann: Yes, it is the basic problem of reality. We can study
various psychic functions and also the more primitive sensory
functions, such as seeing, hearing, and so on, which constitute our
image of our everyday world. They have a material side and the
psychic side. And that is a gap which you cannot explain. We can
follow the metabolism in the brain, we can measure the biochemical
and neurophysiological changes, electric potentials, and so on. These
are material and energetic processes. But matter and electric current
are quite a different thing, quite a different level, than the
psychic experience. Even our seeing and other sensory functions
already involve the same problem. We must realize that there is a gap
which probably can never be overcome or be explained. We can study
material processes and various processes at the energetic level, that
is what we can do as natural scientists. And then there comes
something quite different, the psychic experience, which remains a
mystery.

Grof: There seem to be two radically different approaches to the
problem of brain/consciousness relationship as it manifests in
psychedelic sessions. The first one is the traditional scientific
approach that explains the spectrum of the LSD experience as a
release of information that is stored in the repositories of our
brain. It suggests that the entire process is contained inside of our
cranium and the experiences are created by combinations and
interactions of engrams that have accumulated in our memory banks in
this lifetime.
      A radical alternative to this monistic materialistic view was
suggested by Aldous Huxley. After some personal experiences with LSD
and mescaline, he started seeing the brain more like a "reducing
valve," that normally protects us against a vast cosmic input of
information, which would otherwise flood and overload our everyday
consciousness. In this view, the function of the brain is to reduce
all the available information and lock us into a limited experience
of the world. In this view, LSD frees us from this restriction and
opens us to a much larger experience.

Hofmann: I agree with this model of Huxley's that in psychedelic
sessions the function of the brain is opened. In general, we have
limited capacity to transform all the stimuli which we receive from
the outer world in the form of optical, acoustic, and tactile
stimuli, and so on. We have a limited capacity to transfer this
information so that it can come into consciousness. Under the
influence of psychedelic substances, the valve is opened and an
enormous input of outer stimuli can now come in and stimulate our
brain. This then gives rise to this overwhelming experience.

Grof: Have you actually personally met Aldous Huxley?

Hofmann: Yes, I have met him two times and we had very good, very
important discussions. He gave me his book Island, which had come out
just before he died. In it he describes an old culture on an island,
which is trying to make a synthesis between its own spiritual
tradition and modern technology brought in by an American. This
culture used ritually something called moksha medicine and moksha was
a mushroom that brought enlightenment. Moksha was given only three
times in the lifetime of each individual. The first time it was
during the initiation in a puberty rite, the second time in the
middle of life, and the third time at death, in the final stage of
life. And when Aldous gave me his book, he wrote: "To Dr. Albert
Hofmann, the original discoverer of the moksha medicine." I am very
proud to have this book, Island; it is a beautiful book.

Grof: It is interesting that Aldous Huxley actually used LSD to ease
his transition at the time of his death.

Hofmann: Yes, after he had died, his widow sent me a copy of a paper.
When he was in the process of dying (he was unable to talk because of
his cancer of the tongue), he wrote on it: "0.1 milligrams of LSD,
subcutaneously." So his wife gave him the injection of the moksha
medicine.

Grof: There is a beautiful description of this situation in her book
which is called This Timeless Moment.

Hofmann: Yes, This Timeless Moment, by Laura Huxley.

Grof: I would like to ask you now something very personal. You must
have been asked this question a number of times before, I am sure.
You have had during your lifetime quite a few psychedelic
experiences, some of which you described to us today. It began with
the LSD experiences associated with the discovery of LSD, then the
experiences during the work on the isolation of the active principles
from the magic mushrooms and ololiuqui, the experience in the
mushroom ritual with Maria Sabina, the sessions you described in LSD,
My Problem Child, and some others. What influence have all these
experiences had on you, on your way of being in the world, on your
values, on your personal philosophy, and on your scientific world
view?

Hofmann: They have changed my life, insofar as they provided me with
a new concept about what reality is. Reality became for me a problem
after my experience with LSD. Before, I had believed there was only
one reality, the reality of everyday life. Just one true reality and
the rest was imagination and was not real. But under the influence of
LSD, I entered into realities which were as real and even more real
than the one of everyday. And I thought about the nature of reality
and I got some deeper insights.
      I analyzed the mechanisms involved in the production of the
normal world view that we call the "everyday reality." What are the
factors that constitute it? What is inside and what is outside? What
comes from the outside in and what is just inside? I use for this
process the metaphor of the sender and the receiver. The productive
sender is the outer world, the external reality including our own
body. The receiver is our deep self, the conscious ego, which then
transforms the outer stimuli into a psychological experience.
      It was very helpful for me to see what is really, objectively,
outside; something that you cannot change, something that is the same
for everybody. And what is produced by me, homemade, what is myself,
that which I can change. What is my spiritual inside that can be
changed. This possibility to change reality, which exists in
everyone, represents the real freedom of every human individual. He
has an enormous possibility to change his world view. It helped me
enormously in my life to realize what really exists on the outside
and what is homemade by me.

Grof: You have a tremendous awareness and sensitivity in regard to
ecological issues, for example, the industrial pollution of water and
air, the destruction of nature, the dying of the European forests,
and so on. Would you attribute this to your psychedelic sessions, in
which you experienced oneness with nature and the interconnectedness
of creation? Do you think that these experiences somehow opened you
to this greater ecological awareness, to a sharper sense of what we
are doing to nature?

Hofmann: Yes, through my LSD experience and my new picture of
reality, I became aware of the wonder of creation, the magnificence
of nature and of the animal and plant kingdom. I became very
sensitive to what will happen to all this and all of us. I have
published and lectured about the main environmental problems we have
in Europe and at home in this regard.

Grof: The discovery of LSD has been such an important part of your
life and you have also personally experienced what a positive impact
this substance can have on us if it is properly used. I would like to
ask you: what was your reaction to what happened in the 1960s in the
United States?

Hofmann: Well, I was very sorry, really sorry. As I said, I would
have never suspected LSD could be misused in such a way. Now I have
the feeling that the situation has improved, because you never read
in the newspapers about accidents with LSD any more, as it happened
in the 1960s practically every day. People who use LSD today know how
to use it. Therefore, I hope that the health authorities will get the
insight that LSD, if it is used properly, is not a dangerous drug. We
actually should not refer to it as drug; this word has a very bad
connotation. We should use another name. Psychedelic substances, if
they are used in proper ways, are very helpful for mankind.

Grof: You wrote a book entitled LSD, My Problem Child. I heard you
say, at the conference, that you hope you might see the day when your
problem child will become a desired child again.

Hofmann: I myself will not probably see this day, but it will
definitely happen sometime in the future, I am sure. The truth will
finally come out and the truth is: If LSD is used in the right way,
it is a very important and very useful agent. LSD is no longer
playing a bad role in the drug scene and psychiatrists are again
trying to submit their proposals for research with this substance to
the health authorities. I hope that LSD will again become available
in the normal way, for the medical profession. Then it could play the
role it really should, a beneficial role.

Grof: Do you have a vision for the future concerning this, an idea of
how you would like LSD to be used?

Hofmann: We have a kind of model for it in Eleusis and also in the
so-called primitive societies where psychedelic substances are used.
LSD should be treated as a sacred drug and receive corresponding
preparation, preparation of quite a different kind than other
psychotropic agents. It is one kind of thing if you have a
pain-relieving substance or some euphoriant and (another to) have an
agent that engages the very essence of human beings, their
consciousness. Our very essence is Absolute Consciousness; without an
I, without the consciousness of every individual, nothing really
exists. And this very center, this core of the human being is
influenced by these kinds of substances. Therefore, excuse me for
repeating myself, these are sacred substances. Because, what is
sacred if not the consciousness of the human being, and something
which activates it must be handled with reverence and with extreme
caution.

Grof: Many of us who have experienced psychedelics feel very much,
like you do, that they are sacred tools and that, if they are
properly used, they open spiritual awareness. They also engender
ecological sensitivity, reverence for life, and capacity for peaceful
cooperation with other people and other species. I think, in the kind
of world we have today, transformation of humanity in this direction
might well be our only real hope for survival. I believe that it is
essential for our planetary future to develop tools that can change
the consciousness which has created the crisis that we are in.

Hofmann: That certainly would be a major step in the right direction.
We need a new concept of reality and a new set of values for things
to change in a positive direction. LSD could help to generate such a
new concept.

Grof: I would like to thank you for giving up your time of leisure on
this beautiful day and for coming here to be with us and share your
life experiences. I really appreciate it very much and, I am sure, so
does everyone else in this room.

Hofmann: Thank you for inviting me to Esalen. I really enjoy this
very beautiful landscape. It is so wonderful to be here and to
experience the atmosphere in this institute with old friends and
colleagues. It has been a great experience for me. Thank you, too.
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