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Offline Haenk * Frequent Contributor * ** * Posts: 550 * Country: de * [xx] Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << on: Yesterday at 03:39:48 pm >> EU will make it mandatory to use customer-replaceable batteries, that is "with standard tools", no hot-glueing etc. on all household items. https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/ eu-parlament-will-festverklebte-handy-akkus-verbieten-17867864.html (in German) This has to be put into effect, requiring a few more details, but it seems all law-making entities will pass this (and more) soon. Industry is not too happy about this. Timeframe is not stated, but I assume "really soon". [ip] Logged The following users thanked this post: edavid, Ian.M, AVGresponding --------------------------------------------------------------------- Offline magic * Super Contributor * *** * Posts: 4345 * Country: pl * [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 05:39:37 pm >> You still won't be able to buy them other than from dodgy eBay vendors ;) [ip] Logged --------------------------------------------------------------------- Online ataradov * Super Contributor * *** * [index] * Posts: 8546 * Country: us * + Personal site [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 06:36:35 pm >> I don't read German, but if the law does not require them to actually produce those batteries more than what is required for the initial run, then all they will do is come up with a proprietary battery format for every device and never make them. And yes, even if some form factor becomes popular (BL-5C, here we go) only dodgy suppliers would bother making compatibles. And for others you will never see a spare battery in your life. << Last Edit: Yesterday at 06:49:42 pm by ataradov >> [ip] Logged Alex --------------------------------------------------------------------- Offline Haenk * Frequent Contributor * ** * Posts: 550 * Country: de * [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 06:43:52 pm >> The law will require the availability of replacement batteries for as long as one expects the device to be usable. Guess there will be some more lawmaking involved, to define these expected lifetimes. Also, I'm note sure if this is valid for the pure cells or only for complete battery packs. That would mean "original, but expensive replacement packs". [ip] Logged --------------------------------------------------------------------- Online ataradov * Super Contributor * *** * [index] * Posts: 8546 * Country: us * + Personal site [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 06:52:39 pm >> Well, it is good. But I'll wait to celebrate until something happen. There are so many tricks they can do to make this not work. Including replacement batteries costing 1/2 of the initial device price. I don't think there is a reasonable way to make a generic law limiting all that. A battery may be 1/2 of the device price for real. [ip] Logged Alex --------------------------------------------------------------------- Online Cerebus * Super Contributor * *** * [index] * Posts: 9657 * Country: gb * [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 07:31:57 pm >> Quote from: ataradov on Yesterday at 06:36:35 pm I don't read German, but if the law does not require them to actually produce those batteries more than what is required for the initial run, then all they will do is come up with a proprietary battery format for every device and never make them. And yes, even if some form factor becomes popular (BL-5C, here we go) only dodgy suppliers would bother making compatibles. And for others you will never see a spare battery in your life. You don't need to read German, the EU employs a lot of translators. The draft and final regulations will be available in BG, ES, CS, DA, DE, ET, EL, EN, FR, GA, HR, IT, LV, LT, HU, MT, NL, PL, PT, RO, SK, SL, FI, SV, at: https://ec.europa.eu/ [ip] Logged Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Online ataradov * Super Contributor * *** * [index] * Posts: 8546 * Country: us * + Personal site [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 07:45:45 pm >> I was mostly speaking about the news article. I'm not a lawyer, so reading a law even in English will not do me any good. I'm sure companies will employ real lawyers that will tell them how to sabotage that law. [ip] Logged Alex --------------------------------------------------------------------- Online Cerebus * Super Contributor * *** * [index] * Posts: 9657 * Country: gb * [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 07:55:52 pm >> Sorry, I was being very terse because I got caught mid-comment by the need to serve up dinner. EU documents are usually rather wordy, but are straightforward to understand once you get past the wordiness, law degree not required. As I understand it this is early days for this proposal, so the available documents will be less formal and more oriented towards informing policy makers what the proposals are. I'll see if I can find something later - dessert now. [ip] Logged Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Online ataradov * Super Contributor * *** * [index] * Posts: 8546 * Country: us * + Personal site [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 08:04:51 pm >> Sure, I get it. But the lawyers will argue the meaning of common words to the death. It is their literal job. Laws like this need to be paired with strict enforcement and amendments to plug the creative ways manufacturers will find around it. And this is where everyone usually moves on and gives up. Remember all those cookies laws. Did they really help anything? They just made the whole internet experience shittier. I expect this law, if implemented, to have the same effect. All they need to do is make the whole replaceable battery experience so miserable that people would give up and just get a new device. [ip] Logged Alex --------------------------------------------------------------------- Offline twospoons * Regular Contributor * * * Posts: 111 * Country: nz * [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 08:06:27 pm >> Very few device manufacturers make their own batteries. So somewhere there always going to be different company making these 'proprietary' batteries, and an enterprising employee skimming the production line and selling cheaper 'OEM' replacements. Probably with management's blessing. [ip] Logged --------------------------------------------------------------------- Online ataradov * Super Contributor * *** * [index] * Posts: 8546 * Country: us * + Personal site [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 08:12:08 pm >> Quote from: twospoons on Yesterday at 08:06:27 pm Very few device manufacturers make their own batteries. But if all of them spec their own unique package dimension and contact placement, then shops would have too carry dozens and hundreds of different batteries or have them permanently out of stock (apart from a few really popular ones). The real solution would be to have a series of standard sizes, similar to what we have for the regular batteries. But that is not happening in a modern world. [ip] Logged Alex The following users thanked this post: amyk --------------------------------------------------------------------- Offline twospoons * Regular Contributor * * * Posts: 111 * Country: nz * [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 09:07:06 pm >> If there's a market then someone will fill it. Looked at Aliexpress lately? There's also the cost of making a different battery for every product. Manufacturing loves economy of scale. Using the same pack in a bunch of products just makes sense economically. Making custom batteries (and this applies to pretty much every other part too) is only really justified if there is no existing part that meets the design requirements. I get this all the time: "Why can't we use this chip? - we already use it in products X, Y and Z". [ip] Logged --------------------------------------------------------------------- Online Someone * Super Contributor * *** * Posts: 2961 * Country: au * + send complaints here [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 09:22:46 pm >> Japan had had something more complex in place for a long time: https://www.oecd.org/environment/waste/EPR_Japan_battery.pdf Quote manufacturers of compact rechargeable batteries are required to use designs which make it easy to remove compact rechargeable batteries from equipment which contains compact rechargeable batteries Thankfully that was from a prior era when batteries weren't serial coded/paired and you could just swap them out, which was the intent of the legislation making "specified reuse-promoted products". But, as an odd instance of reverse globalisation, these superior products were not sold outside Japan. You could by the "exact" same item in another country where the battery access was glued/welded shut to prevent reuse, requiring the casing to be damaged to remove the battery. Still meeting the recycling/disassembly laws of some other countries mandating separation of components with hand tools, but preventing reuse. Shavers, bicycle lights, electric toothbrushes, anything with rechargeable batteries and waterproofing: order Japanese domestic models! << Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:27:21 pm by Someone >> [ip] Logged --------------------------------------------------------------------- Online Someone * Super Contributor * *** * Posts: 2961 * Country: au * + send complaints here [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 09:26:31 pm >> Quote from: ataradov on Yesterday at 08:12:08 pm Quote from: twospoons on Yesterday at 08:06:27 pm Very few device manufacturers make their own batteries. But if all of them spec their own unique package dimension and contact placement, then shops would have too carry dozens and hundreds of different batteries or have them permanently out of stock (apart from a few really popular ones). The real solution would be to have a series of standard sizes, similar to what we have for the regular batteries. But that is not happening in a modern world. Prior to the uptake of prismatic lithium cells, this worked out ok. You could find all the odd 4/5th or 3/2rd "standard" length cylindrical batteries without too much trouble, even lithium rechargeable coin cells weren't difficult to source (10, 20 years after the original manufacturing). The system can work. [ip] Logged --------------------------------------------------------------------- Online SiliconWizard * Super Contributor * *** * [index] * Posts: 8593 * Country: fr * [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #14 on: Today at 12:36:05 am >> Quote from: Haenk on Yesterday at 06:43:52 pm The law will require the availability of replacement batteries for as long as one expects the device to be usable. What's the definition of this? [ip] Logged --------------------------------------------------------------------- Offline amyk * Super Contributor * *** * Posts: 7748 * [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #15 on: Today at 04:47:06 am >> Quote from: Someone on Yesterday at 09:26:31 pm Quote from: ataradov on Yesterday at 08:12:08 pm Quote from: twospoons on Yesterday at 08:06:27 pm Very few device manufacturers make their own batteries. But if all of them spec their own unique package dimension and contact placement, then shops would have too carry dozens and hundreds of different batteries or have them permanently out of stock (apart from a few really popular ones). The real solution would be to have a series of standard sizes, similar to what we have for the regular batteries. But that is not happening in a modern world. Prior to the uptake of prismatic lithium cells, this worked out ok. You could find all the odd 4/5th or 3/2rd "standard" length cylindrical batteries without too much trouble, even lithium rechargeable coin cells weren't difficult to source (10, 20 years after the original manufacturing). The system can work. Lots of things still use 18650s. As for prismatics, I believe L x W x H is still how they are specified, and obviously if the manufacturer decides to specify some odd size there is likely to be a "close enough" standard size to fit. [ip] Logged --------------------------------------------------------------------- Offline sokoloff * Super Contributor * *** * Posts: 1493 * Country: us * [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #16 on: Today at 01:57:18 pm >> I replaced the battery in my wife's iPhone X last weekend with a <$20 battery from Amazon. Though it took around 45 minutes, none of it was particularly challenging nor required exotic tools. (The screwdriver and plastic wedge needed came in the kit; I used her hair dryer and a spring clip suction cup thing to open it.) Would it be nice if it was easier? Sure, but this was already not difficult and if I threw away the suction cup thing, I'd still have been under $35. Apple would have done it for $70. I'm not convinced this is a major problem. [ip] Logged --------------------------------------------------------------------- Online ataradov * Super Contributor * *** * [index] * Posts: 8546 * Country: us * + Personal site [xx] Re: Not dodgy at all and long overdue - user replaceable batteries. << Reply #17 on: Today at 06:44:20 pm >> Quote from: sokoloff on Today at 01:57:18 pm Though it took around 45 minutes, none of it was particularly challenging nor required exotic tools. Don't worry Apple is working on a better design with no screws and ID chips in the batteries. Also, Apple is a bad example, due to popularity there will be an incredible amount of spare parts supply. But even if you look at the second and third vendor, it is already much harder. And if your thing is not a phone, then forget about it. 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