https://alanany.com/2021/12/23/upwork-12k-refund-client-using-another-credit-card/ Al Anany x Al Anany Tech Investment Consultant * Who's Al? * Learn * Journal * Book a call * (c) 2021 Al Anany | Zurich, Switzerland Upwork is asking me for a $12,500 refund because their client was using someone else's credit card. * 23 December 2021 * The Art of Freelancing https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/ t_fit-1500w,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2020_22/3364551/ 200526-upwork-scams-social-cs.jpg --------------------------------------------------------------------- Before starting to read this, you should be aware that this article is concerning an Upwork complex situation and refund that's been forced to my account after two years of working on the platform. I'm a successful Upwork freelancer, and I love it. I've made over $100k on that platform and was able to career shift through it. The reason why I'm posting about this is to understand whether I'm being in a fair or a non-fair position from an external perspective. It's important to note that I've informed Upwork's support that I'll post this problem externally online on Medium and my website. They didn't inform me not to. Here's what happened:- I started off on Upwork a few years back. I built my status slowly and learned a huge deal along the way. In 2018, I signed a client as usual. Let's call him "Robin" for the sake of the non-disclosure agreements. Robin was far by the best and the worst thing that ever happened to me on Upwork. I've worked with him till Sept of 2020. Robin worked with me fairly and I never had any dispute with Upwork on him. He needed presentations for investments, plans, designs, financial sheets; all within my area of expertise. It was perfect. I even met Robin in real life in Zurich, instead of virtually. We continued working via Upwork while locating in Zurich, as to not violate any Upwork terms. Here's the first thing you should be aware of. There are two ways of recording how you work on Upwork, either hourly through the software or adding manual hours. They state it very obvious that a freelancer falls under the Upwork protection if they record their hours through the software, not manually. I meet Robin, and we conduct a brainstorming session and a few meetings. The only reasonable thing to do at this stage is to add manual hours. It doesn't make sense to open the software on a blank screen, and just click somewhere to keep the computer alive. Hence, I recorded manual hours, lots of them. I usually do that with other clients as well, it's never a problem. Here's when it could be a problem: If the client on Upwork asks for a chargeback (refund). Then he might be entitled to it if you're manually recording the hours. I'm on very good terms with Robin. He would never request a refund from Upwork, I'm sure of that. Anyway, that lasted for a couple of years and ended when he informed me that he has issues with Upwork and his credit card. I just told him to go sort it out and call me when he's ready to work again. I will not work with him for free till he fixes his credit card on Upwork. In all cases,I don't care really, I have several other clients, and Upwork pays me per week. So, worst-case scenario, I would lose one week of earnings, but that's tolerable. That was the end of it. Until May of 2021, when I receive an email from Upwork: We are writing today to let you know that a payment made to your account has been reversed by your client's bank. This reversal (chargeback) is a result of your client contacting their bank and asking them to reverse the payment for the following transaction(s): Amount: $1,306.67 $2,200.00 $3,453.33 $1,200.00 $1,580.00 $2,820.00 Total: $12,560 I went nuts. A day after, a few other freelancers whom we were working with, started contacting me saying that Upwork is asking all of them for a refund as well. Is Robin really asking for a chargeback? That's impossible. I start investigating by calling Robin. He apologized and said he never called any bank, additionally, he said this is a bit of a mess-up as he forgot that there is "a credit card connected in his account that wasn't actually his". Let me translate this. Robin has been using someone else's credit card for two years, and this other person realized that money was being withdrawn in the previous two years on a platform called Upwork without his consent. Now, here's what I thought of. 1. I've worked with Robin for two years, and I worked hard for this. 2. I will not give a refund, as this is not my fault. Then, I spoke to Upwork. They told me, here's what you can do: -- Provide us with proof of your work, and we will try to convince the bank to not ask for this chargeback on behalf of their client. -- That option sounds illogical in all sorts of ways. Why would a bank take my side (a freelancer from another country) instead of his own actual client who never actually requested those services? Nevertheless, I sent Upwork two years' worth of projects. They respond 40 days later telling me that they tried and failed. Then they said something that seemed, in my point of view, a bit of a human-right violation. "You have to pay this money back, what we want you to do is work on our platform and we will take your earnings from there. Till then, you're not allowed to withdraw any earnings." (Paraphrasing) Let me get this straight -- Upwork, a billion-dollar company, wants me, a freelancer, to work for free on their platform for approximately 230 hours (with my hourly rate) because a client on their platform was using someone else's credit card? How in god's name is that my fault? Yes, the clients can ask for a chargeback if I record the hours manually and their case was proven. But that's not the client asking for the money. That's the credit card owner, who is another person. That's Upwork's fault for not vetting their clients. Eventually, I keep trying to open a communication channel with Upwork and their support concerning this refund situation. They insist on this situation. They eventually wrote this message. "Hi Al, We have already discussed this in our numerous communications from May. Whoever owns the credit card can ask their bank to chargeback a payment. We cannot get around this, unfortunately. We consider this matter closed as we believe we have gone over this with you at length." They consider this matter closed. I even tried to raise a complaint on this "Escalation" department -- their response "We're sorry, the executive escalations are the highest tier." At the moment of this writing, I'm still on the platform. It's a little bit demotivational knowing that the next 230 hours that I'll work will go to Upwork instead of me because of this, so I'm slowed down on a motivational level. I've worked honorably and by the book on Upwork for a long time. When things were not making sense, I still followed the rules. I could've easily gotten paid from Robin outside of Upwork. Heck, he was physically in front of me. Yet, I respect how Upwork opened my eyes to becoming the person I am today, and for that, I'm forever grateful. Whenever I speak to someone about this, they are shocked and deem it unfair. I decided to write this here because I would love to hear opinions on both sides of the matter. If you have any opinion on this matter, please share it with me. In my opinion, a better way to think of this is as follows -- If you're working as a cook at Mcdonalds and it turns out that Mcdonalds has been scamming the world without you being aware. Do you, as a cook, have the responsibility to pay what you honorably earned back to the world? Thanks, Al Anany --------------------------------------------------------------------- My Upwork Profile - Al Anany Upwork Profile (23 December 2021): https://www.upwork.com/freelancers /~0155e42f63471e6bdf Website: https://www.alanany.com Do you want to receive a monthly newsletter? [ ][Subscribe] ChargebackClientCredit CardRefundUpwork Comments (23) * Elpidio 9 January 2022 - 1:46 pm Dude, get off Upwork. Do not do any work for them. Invest that time and build your name on your own or some other platform. Take your clients off Upwork. Would love to see what you're doing. You don't owe them a thing. Reply + John Olson 9 January 2022 - 3:25 pm Don't work for free. Get a lawyer. Reply + Jdare pilsk 9 January 2022 - 5:24 pm Mr Anany, What you have here is what I'm t legal system in the us a 'tort'. And the legal system here is designed to right the wrong as it relates to torts. Call a lawyer in the jurisdiction in which the terms and conditions state you must. Your lawyer should start by sending a letter to upwork along the lines of... negligence here occurred. No doubt. And we can pretty easily track the dots of the negligence back to your actions (or lack there of), and we will seek redress in superior court (the sum is likely too large for small claims court, but maybe. Depends on the jurisdiction). Ideally upwork will get the message and restore your ability to capture revenue at the next billable hour on their platform. If not, you ask them for discovery (interrogatories and requests for productions). Then you start visiting a judge and ideally they get the picture that it's a no win battle and the reputation hit will force them to a settlement that ideally includes your legal fees, too. But yeah, this one is pretty straightforward if the story is accurate. Lawyer up and right the wrong. Reply * Dennis 9 January 2022 - 1:53 pm Al Anany, Its sad to hear the story. Please do not get demotivated. You will get more clients in future. We also found out a dark model that is circulating on Upwork, it is Id Impersonation or Id fraud. its on a rise and there are people who make IT company for example using a generic name like "FL Office" which are hiring experts ask experts to give interviews and get projects and later give the code to low budget developers on Upwork and ask these Low budget developers to use the username/password of expert users to publish the code changes or updating Jira and confluence. Real Companies who are actually paying the recruiting companies are not aware of this model. You can read here: https://community.upwork.com/t5/Coffee-Coconut-Break/ Why-companies-are-not-hiring-IT-freelancers-directly-on/m-p/ 999111 Reply * Philipp Ludewig 9 January 2022 - 1:56 pm Aloha, I believe it's time to invite a lawyer in this conversation you have with Upwork. This kind of behavior is unheard of to me. Your story feels like a short story from a dystopian book. All the blame and the cost is put on you, but the profit is held by Upwork. Wish you all the best. Reply * Will 9 January 2022 - 2:03 pm Hiya, your story about the client using another credit card is trending on Hacker News https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29862860 (That's news[.]ycombinator[.]com/item?id=29862860 in case your software strips it.) Have a nice day, Will Reply * mk3 9 January 2022 - 2:03 pm I don't know how not too swear after reading this. It seems it would be done in any case no matter what hours will be charged. So in the end why they are taking 5-10% commision for guaranteed pay??? I can get hourly tracker for much cheaper than that? Reply * Jean-Pierre Rupp 9 January 2022 - 2:13 pm These platforms should start using Bitcoin Cash, and if the client refuses, then charging extra to pay for fraud insurance. There are very few reasonable alternatives to the sort of transactional finality that is needed for this kind of transaction. Physical cash is not an option. Bank transfers are an alternative, but can be costly outside of areas with SEPA or similar agreements in place. Credit card transactions aren't "hard" enough. They can be reversed fairly easily as you've seen. I think it is Upwork's responsibility to do due diligence and ask for proof of identity to avoid this sort of problem, if they choose to allow the use of credit cards. You don't have the tools to do that, so it is impossible for you. It's their responsibility to do what is possible to mitigate this sort of fraud. I think you might be able to take them to court over this, if you are so inclined. Reply + Harish 9 January 2022 - 4:04 pm Bro, keep away from upwork. They may not give any value to freelancer. One day they simply deleted my 4.9 star profile for unknown reason. in the end, they will write to us something like "... we consider this case as closed. Thanks for your understanding" Reply * Peter 9 January 2022 - 2:19 pm Get a lawyer. That is Robin's debt, not yours. You did the work and were compensated, you do not owe Upwork anything except bad press. Reply + Vinicius Correa 9 January 2022 - 5:26 pm I'm credit card expert and once you aren't in charge to process Robin's payments, Upwork have to deal with chargeback issue. This situation looks like eBay trying to get a refuse from the seller once the buyer refuses to pay a purchase. I don't know how much a lawyer costs in your country, but this could be a good case. Otherwise, leave the platform and find some alternatives. Reply * Pete 9 January 2022 - 2:20 pm Oh btw, you made HN - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id= 29862860 Reply * Alex Ivanovs 9 January 2022 - 2:26 pm I don't think is the first time Upwork has managed to get themselves in this situation. But, honestly, I feel I am missing some more information about this Robin guy. Couldn't he have helped you fix this issue? Who's credit card was he using? Just feels like some details are missing. Reply * Tony 9 January 2022 - 2:28 pm If I were you, I'd sue Robin for the payment. He owes the money, not you. You pay back the money to Upwork, and turn the situation is resolved, no? Reply * Robert Michaels 9 January 2022 - 2:36 pm You need to take this up with politicians. A law must be passed that requires upwork (and all other similar companies) to verify the identity of the clients and that their methods of payment are valid and linked properly to the purchaser. Otherwise, companies like upwork should be made liable for the chargeback. Your situation is just another reason I refuse to take credit card payments in my service business, anyone can "chargeback" on you and prevail. I don't take PayPal, Nenmo, or any other electronic "voodoo" payments either. Cash, check, or money order only. I know where the client actually lives and I can repossess my expensive parts promptly. If someone writes a check and then stops payment at their bank - - that is considered "Theft of Services" in Texas by my local county prosecutor, for $25 I can file papers and have a warrant for their arrest issued (NEVER had to do it either). Every job I do requires my signed contract in writing. Reply * SH 9 January 2022 - 4:52 pm Is this fair? No. To be honest, it's not fair neither to you nor Upwork, the bank, the credit card holder, etc. Robin is a thief - that's the clear culprit here. Is this reasonable? That's another story. Upwork is pulling their weight because they believe they add more value here than you (as an individual). And don't yell at me for this... but they're right. Could yo go solo and avoid Upwork? Yes. Could you retain customer acquisition? Unlikely. This is the story of aggregators and how much value they add. If Upwork is powerful and can pull these trump cards, it's because they add huge value to content creators out there. What can you do? What you're already doing. Upwork is more powerful and adds more value than you individually. Upwork DOES NOT add more value than your community combined. If your story becomes the potential story of any Upwork freelancer...they probably will pushback vs. the credit card/bank. Just don't get caught up in a "Upwork is being unfair to me situation". I would frame it as "Upwork puts its freelances under considerable unpaid work risk". Reply + Simon Durkee 9 January 2022 - 5:26 pm I'm surprised no one has suggested, split future Upwork income. 50% goes to the debt and 50% goes to you. You're not working for free and they get their money back. It's the only solution that is equitable to all parties. BTW - I have extensive experience in credit card processing. It is VERy DIFFICULT to reverse a chargeback. Upwork is at the mercy of Visa/MC/Amex, and you are at the mercy of Upwork. Upwork can choose to not use Visa/MC/Amex but they add enough value to accept the chargeback risk. You can choose to not use Upwork but they add enough value to accept the chargeback risk. You can walk away from this, use a competing platform, and not pay a dime. Upwork has already paid back the $12k+ and are stuck, which is the primary reason why they should consider the 50/50 split of future income. Good luck with future endeavors! Reply * Chris hector 9 January 2022 - 5:04 pm Sent this letter to them on your behalf: This is half press inquiry half annoyance I read: https://alanany.com/2021/12/23/ upwork-12k-refund-client-using-another-credit-card/ I was going to promote and use your service to my numerous professional friends as I step into the role of an industry leader and consultant. I cherish what you are doing and want you to do better I did a full stop when reading this. Not only will I refuse to support your service I will actively discourage others and actively encourage them to seek other directions until you make this right Take care of your own. Lead by example. You created this problem and you are responsible to make it right. Don't shift the blame down the line Lead us into the new era. Please don't set this example With great sadness, Chris Hector Principle Engineer and designer Sequential Reply * Kuba Tyszko 9 January 2022 - 5:05 pm Here's the catch - chargeback is usually allowed UP TO 120 days after the transaction, so you might be able to question the previous charges (not sure about the exact timing of everything). It really shouldn't be your problem that the card owner did not notice anything for TWO YEARS - that's pure negligence. You could try contacting upwork (although they might stand by the matter being "closed") and working at least a compromise with them to only agree to chargeback the transactions <120 days. Other than that, you're at a loss, even if you did the work, the card owner can SIGN a document with their bank where they declare that they didn't authorize the charges - no matter what you say they're going to side with them. It sucks but that's often the cost of doing business, even though I DO AGREE that upwork should be insuring the transactions and taking at least SOME responsibility. I'm pretty certain that their terms state that they wouldn't be responsible for any losses - but hey, THEY ARE the ones who verify the identity of the other party - you could probably sue and claim that they didn't do it well enough to protect their and your business. So again, I'd recommend writing a CERTIFIED letter to upwork, pointing the 120 days for chargeback and breaking the transactions to which you MIGHT CONSIDER agreeing to (<120) vs the ones that are too old. Also, you should point out that it's THEM who process the payment and they did not properly verify the payee, so you don't feel like you should take the hit. This happens ALL the time with services like UBER where passengers use fake card, take the ride and disappear. UBER is who usually takes the hit in such cases, even if there are chargebacks. Reply * GreenTail 9 January 2022 - 5:14 pm Upwork should pay you immediately and try to recoup the loss by making some contact with Robin. Reply * Axe 9 January 2022 - 6:02 pm Take your work off Upwork, stop working for free, lawyer up. Reply * JC 9 January 2022 - 6:22 pm Upwork should be responsible. I'm not sure why you're paying them a commission if it's not to guarantee payment. I could understand a month or two chargeback dispute, but going back several years is ridicules. Still I wouldn't just leave the platform. Being independent means sometimes eating unfair losses. Every contractor (and company) in the world has similar stories that are even more ridicules. Make your decision based on whatever is going to get you more money in the future. If Upwork still helps bring in clients then in the long run this is a lesson not to log work manually anymore. And an active Upwork profile helps outsiders see your reviews and activity. Also this got you on Hackernews so hopefully you'll land more clients outside the platform. Losing the cash is BS, but life is sometimes. Good luck. Reply * Bob 9 January 2022 - 7:35 pm It seems like you should be going after Robin. If Robin paid you with someone else's credit card, then Robin is a fraud and needs to pay you. You should sue Robin, especially if you have as much information about him as you seem to. He is not an upstanding guy. He could easily pay you for the charges that were reversed because he "accidentally" used someone else's credit card. Reply Leave a reply Cancel reply Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked * [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. [Post Comment]