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Sign up for a free GitHub account to open an issue and contact its maintainers and the community. Pick a username [ ] Email Address [ ] Password [ ] [ ] Sign up for GitHub By clicking "Sign up for GitHub", you agree to our terms of service and privacy statement. We'll occasionally send you account related emails. Already on GitHub? Sign in to your account Jump to bottom Remove all direct links to languagetransfer.org #44 Merged SyntaxBlitz merged 1 commit into master from remove-all-links-to-website Aug 13, 2021 Merged Remove all direct links to languagetransfer.org #44 SyntaxBlitz merged 1 commit into master from remove-all-links-to-website Aug 13, 2021 +2 -47 Conversation 26 Commits 1 Checks 2 Files changed 2 Conversation @SyntaxBlitz Copy link Quote reply Contributor @SyntaxBlitz SyntaxBlitz commented Aug 13, 2021 * edited Google has removed Language Transfer from the Google Play Store. Some history When we first published, the app was rejected because we had a link to Language Transfer's Patreon: image Since this was a way of soliciting funds (for our free, open-source project) that didn't give Google a 15% cut, it wasn't allowed. This sucked, because Language Transfer has always been run entirely on donations (which pay Mihalis's rent), even before a mobile app existed at all. The mobile app became our best way to get these language courses out into the world, and it isn't allowed to link to our fundraising platform. The app doesn't provide any special features to people who donate; it's just a way to help support the project. Google makes an exception for tax-exempt nonprofits, but Language Transfer is a small project run by one guy. If we want to let people donate, Google wants a cut. To appease Google, we swapped out those links for links to the Language Transfer website so that users could learn more about the project themselves. We don't have any text in the app anymore about contributing or donating to the project. Google accepted this version of the app to the Play Store, and (about a year later) it's now on around 50,000 devices. This morning Today, Google pulled the app from the Play Store (with no notice, as is their way) with this series of screenshots attached to the rejection: image org languagetransfer-InAppExperience-410 That's right; someone at Google reviewed this app, visited the LT website, scrolled to the very bottom of the page, and clicked through twice to find a way to contribute funds to the project. Our app isn't allowed to link to the homepage of the project's own website unless we completely remove our users' ability to discover a way to give us money. This isn't a change, by the way; this link was on the website when Google first approved the app. I'm hoping this PR does the trick, but we're still linking the GitHub page (which seems, yknow, reasonable, for an open-source app) and the Facebook page (again, doesn't everyone do this?), and of course it will be possible to find ways to donate through either of those links. We'll just have to hope that this is good enough for Google. 112 37 16 @SyntaxBlitz Remove all direct links to languagetransfer.org 91868d4 Hide details View details @SyntaxBlitz SyntaxBlitz merged commit e2c11af into master Aug 13, 2021 0 of 2 checks passed 0 of 2 checks passed @github-actions build build Details @github-actions build build Details @SyntaxBlitz SyntaxBlitz deleted the remove-all-links-to-website branch Aug 13, 2021 @SyntaxBlitz Copy link Contributor Author @SyntaxBlitz SyntaxBlitz commented Aug 13, 2021 tested on my device, works @Ycta Copy link @Ycta Ycta commented Aug 13, 2021 Rewrite it as PWA and let users directly download it from your site. 29 1 [?] 2 @KevinColemanInc Copy link @KevinColemanInc KevinColemanInc commented Aug 13, 2021 Google's cut is 15%, not 30% (source). 1 7 9 1 @Greg-Boggs Copy link @Greg-Boggs Greg-Boggs commented Aug 13, 2021 Is it possible an open source nonprofit may be able to assist in supporting the app so it can get an exemption? @SyntaxBlitz Copy link Contributor Author @SyntaxBlitz SyntaxBlitz commented Aug 13, 2021 Google's cut is 15%, not 30% (source). Ah, thanks for the correction. I forgot they had changed that. @a1batross Copy link @a1batross a1batross commented Aug 13, 2021 Google as always. There is a form buried in the email or on developer console where you can try to send an appeal but it may take too long. Also, you can send APK with no changes and see if they will reject it, sometimes it works too. This need to be covered by the media, like sharing on the Hackernews or like that, many people read it. Consider adding your app to F-Droid as well, these guys don't mind when FOSS apps show donation links. 13 @adeekshith Copy link @adeekshith adeekshith commented Aug 13, 2021 Also consider making it available on alternate app stores F-Droid or IzzyOnDroid to reduce dependence on Google. Let me know if you need any help with that. 13 [?] 5 4 @SyntaxBlitz Copy link Contributor Author @SyntaxBlitz SyntaxBlitz commented Aug 13, 2021 I'm hoping to submit to F-Droid eventually, though at the moment we don't have an explicit open license on the actual content being served by the app, so we'll need to get that worked out first. 1 @theonewolf Copy link @theonewolf theonewolf commented Aug 13, 2021 Kind of a line of thinking with @Greg-Boggs, but would it be prohibitively costly to file for and create a non-profit LLC for this app? Totally understand if you think that's too much work @SyntaxBlitz. @ocdtrekkie Copy link @ocdtrekkie ocdtrekkie commented Aug 13, 2021 * edited Contact your Congresspeople and ask them to support and vote for the Open App Markets Act as soon as possible: https:// www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/11/ apple-google-senators-app-store-conflict/ (The primary goal of this bill is to prohibit Google and Apple from punishing app developers from soliciting payments outside of their platforms.) Also, consider hooking up with the Coalition for App Fairness, who may be able to help draw more visibility to your issue: https:// appfairness.org/ The only solution to constant abuse by app market actors is legal action. 11 5 @lodenrogue Copy link @lodenrogue lodenrogue commented Aug 13, 2021 I'm deleting all my Google accounts if they don't fix this 3 @SyntaxBlitz Copy link Contributor Author @SyntaxBlitz SyntaxBlitz commented Aug 13, 2021 Kind of a line of thinking with @Greg-Boggs, but would it be prohibitively costly to file for and create a non-profit LLC for this app? Totally understand if you think that's too much work @SyntaxBlitz. I've thought about this before, but I don't personally run the Language Transfer project (I just work on the app). Mihalis Eleftheriou would be the one to file, but I think it would be tricky for him to set up a legal entity for the project because he's a bit of a nomad (and he already has a lot on his plate). 2 @Greg-Boggs Copy link @Greg-Boggs Greg-Boggs commented Aug 13, 2021 I don't think you'd need to form a new nonprofit for the app. Rather you could be supported by an existing nonprofit that already has 503 status. @ted-gould Copy link @ted-gould ted-gould commented Aug 13, 2021 +1 on using an existing charity. One example is https:// sfconservancy.org/ 1 [?] 1 @ashsidhu Copy link @ashsidhu ashsidhu commented Aug 13, 2021 The only long term solution is to support the open web. More we give in to gated gardens, more they are going to subjugate indie app makers. Both Apple and Google are upto no good. I can help you write a PWA which will be at par in performance and features with the android app. While we know Play Store has more users today, we're duty bound to serve everyone through the open web non gated platform first. 1 [?] 1 @lachesis Copy link @lachesis lachesis commented Aug 13, 2021 Now that this is #1 on HN, hopefully Google will reverse their decision. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28172490 3 @adeekshith Copy link @adeekshith adeekshith commented Aug 13, 2021 I'm hoping to submit to F-Droid eventually, though at the moment we don't have an explicit open license on the actual content being served by the app, so we'll need to get that worked out first. IzzyOnDroid F-droid repository is more lenient so may want to consider that at first. It is easy. You just need to provide a signed APK. Also F-droid will accept it without having an open server side license. It will just slap a "Non free dependency" warning though. @dessant Copy link @dessant dessant commented Aug 13, 2021 Now that this is #1 on HN, hopefully Google will reverse their decision. @lachesis, this has happened several times before, but so far open source developers have caved in within hours and removed links to their websites or donation pages. Google will never have to reverse their abusive decisions, if no open source developer is willing to stand their ground. @piotrblasiak Copy link @piotrblasiak piotrblasiak commented Aug 13, 2021 Same thing happened to us with Attendium on the app store a couple of years ago. We had to add a query parameter to any links that we have in the app/description to remove links that could lead to a payment page. Basically stripping the header & footer. 4 3 2 @ocdtrekkie Copy link @ocdtrekkie ocdtrekkie commented Aug 13, 2021 @piotrblasiak That's a brilliant workaround the issue in the short term, though it's frustrating people who find you through Google Play can then no longer find how to support you. :/ 2 @SyntaxBlitz Copy link Contributor Author @SyntaxBlitz SyntaxBlitz commented Aug 13, 2021 @piotrblasiak I thought about that kind of solution too, but it'd be tricky. The owner of the project runs the site himself with Squarespace; the project itself isn't really a tech project, only the app is. I wouldn't want to make it harder for him to make updates to the website by adding a bunch of awkward server-side code. @piotrblasiak Copy link @piotrblasiak piotrblasiak commented Aug 13, 2021 Ok, yeah I see the problem with people visiting a site and then not finding a way to support it might seem as if there is no way - which might be worse than not linking to the site at all. Then this could be better - as you are not allowed to add a "call to action" on how to pay, at least you are allowed to tell them what you can not do. So I added this to our app and people seem to get it most of the time (see screenshot below). You could keep the button but direct them to a screen like this and let them figure out themselves where to donate. IMG_093640059C55-1 4 [?] 1 @SyntaxBlitz Copy link Contributor Author @SyntaxBlitz SyntaxBlitz commented Aug 13, 2021 Ok, yeah I see the problem with people visiting a site and then not finding a way to support it might seem as if there is no way Yeah, I'm a little concerned even with the version of the app that got rejected; the app is likely to draw in people who would've found other ways to consume the course content (like YouTube or SoundCloud), where we're able to include Patreon links. So by being barred from including links to the donation page, we're potentially reducing income. Fortunately I think so far this effect has been offset by the increased distribution we've gotten by having a mobile app. @ArneBab Copy link @ArneBab ArneBab commented Aug 13, 2021 Maybe get in touch with conservancy? I know it sucks to just go along, but you're already Free Software, so let folks give you the orga needed: https://sfconservancy.org/ -- that's what they live for: liberating free software projects from the burdens of bureaucracy to get the organizational structure that matches their approach. @SyntaxBlitz Copy link Contributor Author @SyntaxBlitz SyntaxBlitz commented Aug 13, 2021 Thanks @ted-gould and @ArneBab for the pointer; it's annoying that we'd have to route contributions outside of our existing setup, but I'll definitely have a look. @patcon Copy link @patcon patcon commented Aug 13, 2021 * edited Came here from hackernews front page. Google makes an exception for tax-exempt nonprofits, but Language Transfer is a small project run by one guy. Have you heard of or explored Open Collective? They do international fiscal sponsorship of open source projects, essentially making you a project if their nonprofit, with a platform to streamline expenses (incl contractor invoices/payouts for project contributors/ maintainers) cc @SudharakaP Sign up for free to join this conversation on GitHub. Already have an account? Sign in to comment Reviewers No reviews Assignees No one assigned Labels None yet Projects None yet Milestone No milestone Linked issues Successfully merging this pull request may close these issues. None yet 16 participants @SyntaxBlitz @Ycta @KevinColemanInc @Greg-Boggs @a1batross @adeekshith @theonewolf @ocdtrekkie @lodenrogue @ted-gould @ashsidhu @lachesis @dessant @piotrblasiak @ArneBab @patcon Add this suggestion to a batch that can be applied as a single commit. This suggestion is invalid because no changes were made to the code. Suggestions cannot be applied while the pull request is closed. 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