Mr. Griffin. I thought you mentioned earlier when he said no, he couldn’t do that, he mentioned something about his having some business, some other things to do.

Mr. Meyers. If he said it, I have no recollection.

Mr. Griffin. Did he mention anything to you about having had a telephone call from one of his dancers who wanted to borrow some money?

Mr. Meyers. Well, now, you see, here I am confused because I know that he sent this kid some money in Fort Worth. I read all about this. Now, whether he mentioned it to me or not, Mr. Griffin, I don’t remember. He might have. He might not have. I don’t know. But, you see, you must appreciate my position because it is difficult for me to disassociate what I have read from what actually happened. Now, I do know that he sent this kid, this pregnant kid, some money. I don’t remember his mentioning it to me Saturday night. He might have. I don’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. In thinking back on his conversation, to what extent did his conversation focus on his competitors as opposed to the extent that it focused on “those poor people, those poor people”?

Mr. Meyers. This is Saturday night you are talking about?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Meyers. Well, you see, I don’t think I have made myself very clear. When he talked to me Saturday night, he did mention the fact that these competitors were open Saturday night and he did mention the fact of how terrible it was because of a sign of disrespect to the President and the fact that this money hungry Jew did it.

Mr. Griffin. Did he use the phrase “money hungry Jew”?

Mr. Meyers. Yes. He used that phrase to me many times. Whether he used it that night, you see, I can’t be specific.

Mr. Griffin. I don’t want you to be if you can’t be.

Mr. Meyers. I can’t be specific.

Mr. Griffin. So you are not clear?

Mr. Meyers. I am not specific. Let’s say I am not factual on that. I am not exact.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Meyers. Now, somewhere in this conversation he swung from his competitors to these poor people. Now, this could have been early in the conversation that I had with him that night or later in the conversation, in the same conversation, that is, and when he went from speaking directly about his competitors to these poor people, I still assumed he was speaking about his competitors. My belief since, of course, is that he was no longer speaking about his competitors. He was speaking about the Kennedy family.

Mr. Griffin. Was this conversation a conversation in which Jack would pause frequently and you would say something or was it something which——

Mr. Meyers. It was pretty much his conversation to me and me saying Jack, calm down, unwind, you know, get it off your mind, or something of this type.

Mr. Griffin. Try to think about your side of the conversation and tell us what things you were saying to him?

Mr. Meyers. Well, actually, Mr. Griffin, I said very little to him other than to—I used the words, pacify him. He was obviously very upset, and again I thought he was upset because of his competition and he was upset obviously because of the assassination. My conversation to him—my words to him were nothing specific more than typical pacifying comment every now and then when he would let loose another tirade.

Mr. Griffin. Is there any possibility in your mind that this conversation could have taken place after midnight?

Mr. Meyers. No. I would be extremely surprised if that took place after midnight. I couldn’t have lost that much time. It would have to have taken place somewhere around—10 that night. It might have even been closer to 11 but it couldn’t possibly have been midnight because I was not yet asleep.

As a matter of fact, I was in bed reading, either reading or watching television, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. You mentioned Jack’s concern about the Weinsteins being what he apparently called money hungry Jews. In your experiences with Jack, would you say that Jack was any less interested in making money than the Weinsteins?

Mr. Meyers. No, no; Jack was just as interested in making money, I am sure. You know, a good psychiatrist could give you the answer to this very simply. The fact remains that the Weinsteins have evidently lots of money and Jack doesn’t or didn’t, and I suppose he resents this to a degree.

Mr. Griffin. What was your experience with Jack as to whether or not he was an aggressive or passive business entrepreneur?

Mr. Meyers. Whether he was aggressive or passive as an individual?

Mr. Griffin. As a businessman. Was he——

Mr. Meyers. Oh, extremely aggressive. Extremely aggressive. I think Jack’s entire nature is aggressive. I think his character is extremely aggressive.

Mr. Griffin. In connection with his attitude toward the Jews, had you ever talked to him about any books that he was reading about the Jews?

Mr. Meyers. No. Let me make his attitude about Jews a little clearer to you. I may have given you a wrong impression. Jack in my opinion is extremely proud of being Jewish—and we’ll put it on a personal basis—just as I am. And due to Jack’s childhood, which I have read so much about—I knew nothing about it until I read about this—and his home life, the way he matured, it is very obvious to me that Jack did have an inferiority complex, we’ll use the old cliche, and that he had become or tried to become an extrovert in order to fit in with what he thought were important people to fit in with due to his lack of formal education. He would attach himself to people from whom he thought he could learn, from whom he thought he could better himself, which, more power to him.

I think also he resented maybe to a degree of envy what some of these—what these Weinsteins were doing, first because he envied them their success, and second, because on this particular night, this Saturday night, they had done something that he felt was derogatory to his people and he would resent it, just as I would resent—and here I must put it on a personal basis, it is a stupid thing, believe me—just as I would resent the living caricature of what a Hitler would portray as a Jew or just as you would resent a living caricature that somebody might portray as the worst element in your faith, and we all have this in our faith.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember, Mr. Meyers, any specific episode or conversations you had with Jack about his feelings towards his Jewish background or his sensitivity toward being a Jew?

Mr. Meyers. I have a feeling he was very proud of being a Jew.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall any specific conversations?

Mr. Meyers. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did he actually mention his feelings about being a Jew from time to time in conversations that you had with him?

Mr. Meyers. No, we just didn’t discuss it. There was just nothing to discuss between he and I on this.

You know, something else comes to my mind now. I also—it is so hard for me to separate what actually happened from what I have read. Can I word it this way?

I am reasonably sure that when he talked to me Saturday night he also said something about going to his rabbi or to the synagogue and that he was surprised that there were no special services that day for the memory of the President.

Now, again, I want to emphasize the fact that I am reasonably sure he said this to me because it seems to come into my mind when he was talking about synagogue and services and rabbis and there would have been no occasion for it other than this, at that time of the night.

Mr. Griffin. Could this have been something that you perhaps learned as a result of talking with one of his brothers or sisters?

Mr. Meyers. I don’t know his brothers or sisters. I have never met them.

Mr. Griffin. In the various times that you had seen Jack Ruby, had you ever seen him get in any fight or become violent with people?

Mr. Meyers. No; I have never seen Jack become physically violent. I have seen him verbally bawl out people, but I have never seen him become physically violent.

Mr. Griffin. Has Jack ever talked to you about his associations with underworld characters—hoodlums?

Mr. Meyers. Many times.

Mr. Griffin. What has he told you about it?

Mr. Meyers. Generalities. Typical—nothing specific, just typical of a man who wants to be with the ingroup, if you want to call this the ingroup, just dropping names of so-called important people that he met or had known, or so on and so forth.

Mr. Griffin. Did he ever say anything to you which indicated that he had ever been a part of any criminal organization?

Mr. Meyers. No; not—of course, you get a finer point of what is criminal and what is not. Jack did tell me, in his youth he was, well, the words he used, a hustler around Chicago, trying to make a stray buck on selling scalping tickets for various fights or hockey games or something like this. I don’t know if he was a criminal. I mean, you know what interpretation you want to put——

Mr. Griffin. Well, did you ever get any indications from him that he had ever sold narcotics?

Mr. Meyers. No.

Mr. Griffin. Or that he had ever, himself, been a part of any gambling organization.

Mr. Meyers. Mr. Griffin, if I ever thought that Jack was involved in anything—in a narcotic or this kind of thing—I would immediately have bought back my introduction to him. I personally, now, this is—should I say this is off the record, because this is not going to be published anywhere, is it?

Mr. Griffin. Well, let me tell you that it will be.

Mr. Meyers. Published?

Mr. Griffin. Everything that is going to be said here will be published, but we appreciate your frankness.

Mr. Meyers. There is one thing that—what were we talking about? It slipped my mind.

Mr. Griffin. You were going to comment about if you ever had any idea or known that he was connected with narcotics or anything like that.

Mr. Meyers. You can put this down if you want to, but I prefer you to stop for a minute.

Mr. Griffin. We have a policy of not——

Mr. Meyers. Well, I don’t want to embarrass myself. This is all that this has to do with.

Mr. Griffin. All right. We will go off the record here.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Griffin. Let me state for the record that we have perhaps talked for 2 or 3 minutes off the record here, and Mr. Meyers told us about Jack Ruby’s attitude toward people who would come to him and ask him to fix them up with one of his female employees, and Mr. Meyers stated to me that one of the things that Jack Ruby liked about Mr. Meyers was that Mr. Meyers was not one of those kinds of people who had done that.

Let me ask you this question pertaining to Jack Ruby now.

Did Jack do or say anything to you, or do you have any knowledge that Jack was making any money by offering extra curricular services for his girls?

Mr. Meyers. I can only answer that by telling you, Mr. Griffin, that if this is so, I would be the most surprised man. I personally have absolutely no knowledge or indication of this in any shape, manner, or form, and my reason for being so positive is that I don’t think Jack ever lied to me. He would have no reason to lie to me in any of our conversations, and that he made it a point to tell me that one of the things that he detested about people who would try to impose on their friendship with him to get him to influence any of the girls in his club to go with them.

He made it a point to tell me that he didn’t approve of this type of thing. He said what they do when they are out of here is their business.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have any indication, any information, that Jack Ruby was a homosexual.

Mr. Meyers. I have been asked that question by the FBI. If Jack Ruby is a homosexual, I know absolutely nothing about it. He certainly never indicated to me in any shape, manner, or form.

Mr. Griffin. Now, let me now switch from Jack Ruby to some of your own activities. Let me ask you have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. Meyers. No.

Mr. Griffin. Have you ever been a member of any political group, let me state it, have you ever been a member of any group who lobbied for any bills or——

Mr. Meyers. Let me answer by telling you this. I have a daughter who is a nuclear chemist and who has worked at Argonne and various nuclear reactors. I have a son who was in the ASA for a couple of years.

Mr. Griffin. What is the ASA?

Mr. Meyers. Army Security Agency, who had a crypto clearance and I and my wife and my family and my wife’s family have been investigated two or three times by various agencies who have to do with these things, and there is absolutely no record of any subversive, Communist, or neopolitical organization or any of this type.

Now, I will answer these questions one by one as you ask them of me if you want me to, but these facts have already been established through my son and my daughter.

You see, when Vicki went to work for Argonne, she had to get a security clearance, and Ralph was in this operation, Ralph was stationed someplace outside of Turkey, and to this day he can’t tell me what he did. I said, “Ralph, what were you actually doing.” He said, “Dad, if you don’t ask me I won’t have to lie to you.”

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Jack Ruby at any time on Sunday, November 24?

Mr. Meyers. No.

Mr. Griffin. Have you seen Jack Ruby at any time since November 24?

Mr. Meyers. I have been tempted, but I decided the thing to do is to stay away from him. I have been to Dallas any number of times since, but I don’t see where I could do him any good by seeing him, and I certainly can’t do myself any good by seeing him. He doesn’t need me.

I will tell you this. Had I been called—for any reason had I been called to testify at his trial, I would have testified.

Mr. Griffin. Have you ever seen a gun in Jack Ruby’s possession?

Mr. Meyers. You mean in his pocket.

Mr. Griffin. Either in his pocket or——

Mr. Meyers. I have seen a gun in his hands.

Mr. Griffin. On how many different occasions?

Mr. Meyers. One occasion I remember distinctly. I saw on one of my trips to Dallas—I don’t remember which one it was—I stayed with Jack until he closed the club and then we went from there and got his car and went to have some coffee or something, and then we said goodby. He went home and I went home. When he left the club he had a money pouch, I suppose you would call it, and he always kept his car in the garage adjacent to his club. He opened the trunk of his car and opened a little bag that looked to me like a little airplane bag, and he put the pouch in this bag, and a gun.

Now, I am actually trying to remember, although I am almost positive the gun was in the bag. In other words, I don’t think he took the gun out of his pocket and put it in the bag. I think it was in the bag and then I said to him, “Jack, why do you carry that damn thing?” He said, “Well, you never know. You have got money around,” and so forth and so on.

I said, “Well, it is yours. You do what you want to. Include me out.”

I have a very healthy respect and fear for those things.

Now, the gentlemen from the FBI asked me if I knew whether Jack Ruby carried a gun, and the answer I would have to give you is the same I gave them. I don’t know. I don’t know if they were carrying a gun. They had their coats on. Maybe he did have a gun, maybe he didn’t. I would have no way of knowing.

Mr. Griffin. In your conversation with Jack Ruby Thursday night, November 21, at the Dallas Cabana, do you recall an incident in which Jack Ruby was angry at the head waiter?

Mr. Meyers. No; I don’t. I really don’t.

Mr. Griffin. I want to ask you——

Mr. Meyers. That this happened while he was at the table with me?

Mr. Griffin. I don’t know. I am asking you if you recall it?

Mr. Meyers. I don’t recall it. I have no recollection of it.

Mr. Griffin. I am going to ask you if you can identify for us a couple of people—a person by the name of Elsa Hacker?

Mr. Meyers. Yes; how in the hell would she get into this?

Mr. Griffin. Is this a business associate?

Mr. Meyers. No; this is a friend.

Mr. Griffin. A person by the name of William Heiman?

Mr. Meyers. William Heiman?

Mr. Griffin. H-e-i-m-a-n.

Mr. Meyers. He was my former employer.

Mr. Griffin. A person by the name of Chris Diaz Carlos or Carlios.

Mr. Meyers. Who?

Mr. Griffin. Chris Diaz Carlios, Puerto Rico. Do you know any people in Puerto Rico?

Mr. Meyers. No; nobody. That is, I don’t know—offhand I couldn’t tell you of anybody I know in Puerto Rico.

I have got to ask you this question. How did Elsa Hacker get into this thing?

Mr. Griffin. I can’t answer the question for you.

Mr. Meyers. If there was anything more farfetched, this would be it.

Mr. Griffin. I say I can’t answer that.

Mr. Meyers. Oh, my goodness.

Mr. Griffin. Is there anything else that you can think of that we haven’t discussed here which you think might be relevant?

Mr. Meyers. Really not—I mean—we have talked about it. The only thing that I discussed with the FBI other than what you and I have talked about is, of course, my personal feelings about Jack, and I have given you indications of these as I have gone along.

Mr. Griffin. I don’t believe I have any more questions. I want to thank you very much for coming here. You have been very helpful to us.

Mr. Meyers. Fine, I hope so.

Mr. Griffin. I hope we haven’t interrupted your schedule too much.

Mr. Meyers. Just took a day out of my life, that is all.

Mr. Griffin. Okay, fine.

Mr. Meyers. I don’t think I have left anything out of any consequence, actually. There is really nothing. I tried to think if there is anything that I could add to this and I can’t, other than, as I say, my own personal opinion of what the heck went on, this is beside the point, because it is all over and done with, more or less. That is right.

Mr. Griffin. Thank you very much.