Mr. Rubenstein. Once a year.

Mr. Griffin. Was your father trained as a carpenter?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes; in the army.

Mr. Griffin. How old was he when he went in the army?

Mr. Rubenstein. He was a young man, very young.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know what rank he attained?

Mr. Rubenstein. According to the thing on his hat for the uniform it was a No. 2, and he always used to get in trouble with the captain, but he always would get right with the captain’s wife, he would always make something for her, a cradle or a chair or something to even up the score.

Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you any of his adventures, where he was?

Mr. Rubenstein. He was in China, but he didn’t like it. He was in Korea and he didn’t like it. He was in Siberia and he hated it most of all. He broke away from the army.

Mr. Griffin. How did he happen to leave?

Mr. Rubenstein. He just left; walked away, walked away; went over to England; from England he went to Canada; from Canada he came to the United States.

Mr. Griffin. Now, when he married your mother was he in the service?

Mr. Rubenstein. He was in the service; in fact I and my sister were born when he left Europe.

Mr. Griffin. You mean you were born after he left Europe?

Mr. Rubenstein. No.

Mr. Griffin. You had been born when he left Europe?

Mr. Rubenstein. My sister and I.

Mr. Griffin. That is the oldest?

Mr. Rubenstein. That is the oldest sister.

Mr. Griffin. She is Ann Volpert?

Mr. Rubenstein. Right.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know where you and your mother stayed when your father left?

Mr. Rubenstein. Probably in Warsaw.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know any reason why you did not accompany him?

Mr. Rubenstein. Well, the only reason I can give you is he had to get away first. He didn’t want the army to find him.

Mr. Griffin. He was really escaping from the army?

Mr. Rubenstein. Right. He didn’t want any more of it. He had it. And I think there was a Japanese war going to break out there any day, and he didn’t want no part of that so he just broke away.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know if, did he ever mention whether religious problems were a reason, any factor in his leaving or do you have the impression it was strictly his dislike for the military service that caused him to leave?

Mr. Rubenstein. Well, you know Jews in the Russian Army is a tough proposition, a very minority race and he probably didn’t like that, either.

Mr. Griffin. He never mentioned that to you?

Mr. Rubenstein. No, he wouldn’t anyway. I don’t think he is the type of a man who would mention things like that. He always felt that he belonged. We, the Jewish problem was never really brought up. We felt like if you did you were a coward. The Jewish problem was always kept to ourselves. Even when I went to high school there wasn’t too many Jewish people there but we tried to belong. We tried to face it.

Mr. Griffin. And your father; I take it from what you say, was very much this kind of a man that he didn’t outwardly voice any feelings of sensitivity or separation because of the fact that he was Jewish in a——

Mr. Rubenstein. I doubt it. I doubt if he would have said anything. No, not with him. But if you asked me that about somebody else in our family——

Mr. Griffin. How about your mother?

Mr. Rubenstein. No, no; I don’t think she—she just wanted to look out for my welfare. My mother was very much interested in the welfare, how we got along, how we got along at school and how our progress was going with us in Chicago.

Mr. Griffin. Now, I take it from what you say also that if your father had any family back in Europe once he came to this country he didn’t maintain contact with them?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t think he ever got one letter. I don’t remember ever hearing a word of his family in Europe; not one word. We would have known about it. If he heard anything about the family indirectly it was through somebody else. Somebody else from his home town might have gotten a letter and mentioned the fact that so and so——

Mr. Griffin. Did he go into the service with any of his brothers?

Mr. Rubenstein. Who?

Mr. Griffin. Your father.

Mr. Rubenstein. I told you there was only one member taken from a family.

Mr. Griffin. The reason I ask you is I believe that in one of the newspaper articles about Jack’s life that was serialized the story was told by the newspaper reporter that your father had joined the service with his two brothers and that your father and his two brothers married your mother and her two sisters.

Do you ever recall a story like that?

Mr. Rubenstein. Never. I don’t even remember seeing the article. I don’t think it is true.

Mr. Griffin. I am going to ask questions about your mother’s family then. Did your mother talk about her family background?

Mr. Rubenstein. Except her father was a very important man in the community. He was like a doctor.

Mr. Griffin. You say like a doctor?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t know. That is the expression they used at home. I don’t know. You know, you are going back 4 or 5 thousand miles, and that is the expression that was used.

Mr. Griffin. Yes; but I take it the words “like a doctor” were used which sort of indicated to you that maybe he wasn’t quite a doctor or something similar to it.

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Like a pharmacist?

Mr. Rubenstein. Could have been. I know he went out and took care of people and my mother was called in to take care of the family when somebody was sick.

Mr. Griffin. Your mother was?

Mr. Rubenstein. Do you follow me?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Rubenstein. My mother went along as a servant to take care of the needs of the family that was sick. Her father took care of the family in a medical way.

Mr. Griffin. I see.

Mr. Rubenstein. That is the impression that I always had from the stories we gathered at home.

Mr. Griffin. Did your mother spend her life around Warsaw, her early life?

Mr. Rubenstein. I suppose, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall her talking about her life in Europe where she came from?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes; I think Warsaw was her main life.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall how big her family was?

Mr. Rubenstein. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did she have any brothers or sisters who came to this country?

Mr. Rubenstein. One brother, Harry Rutland. He was, he worked for the Union Pacific for many, many years as a boilermaker.

Mr. Griffin. Was Rutland his name?

Mr. Rubenstein. I think it used to be Rutkowsky and he changed it to Rutland, naturally.

Mr. Griffin. Where did he live?

Mr. Rubenstein. Denver.

Mr. Griffin. Is he still living?

Mr. Rubenstein. No.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have some knowledge he is dead?

Mr. Rubenstein. Oh, no; we know he is dead.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have any family?

Mr. Rubenstein. Four children, two boys and two girls.

Mr. Griffin. I see. Had your family maintained any contact with the Rutland family?

Mr. Rubenstein. About as much as we maintained with Europe. We would see them occasionally when they would come through or during the war, the boys would pass through Chicago they would stop off and say hello, and if I were working west with the Plymouth Rubber Co. and I went to Denver I stayed there for a week. And then Rita left a trunk at our house one time in Chicago for a couple of years and it blocked up our closet and we asked her to remove it. That is the only connection.

Mr. Griffin. Rita is one of his daughters?

Mr. Rubenstein. Out on the west coast.

Mr. Griffin. So far as you know the only aunts or uncles that you have, whoever came to this country, were your father’s brother Hyman?

Mr. Rubenstein. No; my father’s brother Abraham.

Mr. Griffin. Abraham, who has a son Hyman.

Mr. Rubenstein. A doctor.

Mr. Griffin. And your mother’s brother Harry?

Mr. Rubenstein. That is it.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear your mother talk about having any sisters?

Mr. Rubenstein. Here in this country or in Europe?

Mr. Griffin. Either place.

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t remember. There might have been one—I don’t think she is a sister. She was very close to my mother. I don’t remember her name.

Mr. Griffin. Where was she?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t know. It has been so many years ago.

Mr. Griffin. Did your mother—do you remember any contact being maintained by your mother with her family in Europe?

Mr. Rubenstein. None. Not even one letter.

Mr. Griffin. How did your mother—did your mother ever express any feelings about that?

Mr. Rubenstein. I imagine she got lonely. She used to sort of daydream and tell us a few stories about Warsaw, and her family but she never mentioned any names. I don’t remember her ever mentioning one name.

Mr. Griffin. As you were growing up, as a child, did your mother speak English?

Mr. Rubenstein. No.

Mr. Griffin. What did she speak?

Mr. Rubenstein. Jewish.

Mr. Griffin. Yiddish?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yiddish.

Mr. Griffin. How about your father?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yiddish mostly.

Mr. Griffin. So it—the conversation in the home was Yiddish among the children?

Mr. Rubenstein. Always, always with them.

Mr. Griffin. What sort of religious practices were maintained in the home?

Mr. Rubenstein. Not orthodox, not strict, nothing strict, except for the holidays. We would have for Easter, we would follow the Easter services. For Yom Kippur my father would go to synagogue and try to take me along when I was a little boy; and I went to Hebrew school for a while, and that is all I can remember. I don’t know whether any of the other boys went to Hebrew school or not.

Mr. Griffin. But at least you as the oldest child——

Mr. Rubenstein. I was an oldest child and they tried to set me as an example for the others, but I couldn’t see it. I couldn’t understand it. It is like speaking, what is that language that the Catholics use in their church?

Mr. Griffin. Roman.

Mr. Rubenstein. Roman.

Mr. Griffin. Latin.

Mr. Rubenstein. It is like the Catholics speak Latin in their churches and it is like Hebrew speaking to us kids in America, if you don’t know Hebrew you don’t understand it.

We tried to get some meaning out of it just enough so that we could stay in school and then there was no use. It just didn’t absorb. There was no practice. That is the word, practice.

Mr. Griffin. Did your family, did your mother, observe any of the dietary laws?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes, yes; we had two sets of dishes, and very clean. My mother was very clean with the children and with her own life and her own family and her own home. She was very strict about those things.

Mr. Griffin. Can you explain how it is that your mother would observe the dietary laws and so forth and yet the more religious, the formal religious aspect of the life was not incorporated in your home?

Mr. Rubenstein. Very simple. You try to bring up eight kids in Chicago and keep them in shoes and keep them in school, out of jail, out of trouble, that was enough, that is the big problem. That is more important.

Mr. Griffin. There were troubles in your home, weren’t there?

Mr. Rubenstein. Always.

Mr. Griffin. What kind of troubles?

Mr. Rubenstein. Family troubles.

Mr. Griffin. Would you be specific?

Mr. Rubenstein. Between my father and mother.

Mr. Griffin. What seemed to be the trouble?

Mr. Rubenstein. Arguments constantly, quarrels, unfortunately.

Mr. Griffin. What would they fight over?

Mr. Rubenstein. Who knows?

Mr. Griffin. Did your father drink?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us about his drinking?

Mr. Rubenstein. Always. He learned that in the army.

Mr. Griffin. Where would he drink, at home or go to a corner saloon or what?

Mr. Rubenstein. I would say both.

Mr. Griffin. Did he drink to excess?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Was he abusive in any way?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Would you tell us about that?

Mr. Rubenstein. My mother objected to it and they would start to fight and started an argument and sometimes they hit each other.

Mr. Griffin. They did separate at one time did they not?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What was the cause of the separation?

Mr. Rubenstein. Just ill-feeling.

Mr. Griffin. While you were a child, did your mother have any peculiar ideas, any delusions of any sort, did she seem to have any mental problems?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes; she always felt there was a bone stuck in her throat and about once a month I had to take her downtown. I being the oldest, to a clinic for 50 cents, we had clinics, you know those days, and she insisted there was a bone stuck in her throat from fish, and everytime we would go there the doctor would tell her, “Mrs. Rubenstein, there is nothing in your throat, you are imagining things. Why don’t you forget it.”

Thirty days later, about 30 days, I don’t know, I would go back there with her again. She insisted and I went, she made me go. This kept on for a couple of years, and she finally got tired of going and then we quit going.

Mr. Griffin. Well, was this after you left high school?

Mr. Rubenstein. No; before.

Mr. Griffin. Did there ever come a time when your mother was inattentive to the children, sloppy and so forth?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes. There came a time when she felt very despondent, very disgusted, because she felt she had to keep up the job by herself taking care of the children, and she was unhappy, and so I think the family service suggested that she go to Elgin Sanitarium for a while.

Mr. Griffin. That was in the thirties, though, was it not?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t remember what year, but I know I went out to see her one time with my sister Marion, I drove her out there. It could have been the thirties and it could have been the twenties.

Mr. Griffin. But it was after you got out of high school.

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. How many children were born into the family?

Mr. Rubenstein. Nine.

Mr. Griffin. How many of them are now living?

Mr. Rubenstein. Eight.

Mr. Griffin. And one of them died as a young child?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Where did the one who died come in the picture, in the age span of the children?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t know. It was a girl. She was about 5 years old, I think.

Mr. Griffin. How did she happen to die?

Mr. Rubenstein. She got burned. She tipped over a kettle of hot soup on herself. It was a very tragic incident in our family.

Mr. Griffin. Were you living at home at the time?

Mr. Rubenstein. I was a kid. I was only about 6 or 7 years old, I think.

Mr. Griffin. Was—it is clear to you that you were a child and you were not an adult when this happened?

Mr. Rubenstein. Oh, definitely.

Mr. Griffin. Was this before your parents separated?

Mr. Rubenstein. Many years before.

Mr. Griffin. How did your mother take that?

Mr. Rubenstein. Don’t ask. I thought she was going to go crazy. She loved her children.

Mr. Griffin. I take it you have considerable affection, affectionate feelings toward your mother?

Mr. Rubenstein. Always.

Mr. Griffin. How about the other children, did they feel that way or was there some fighting?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes; yes.

Mr. Griffin. All right.

Mr. Rubenstein. The reason I think for that is, she had a tough life. It wasn’t easy for her putting up with my father all these years, moving from place to place, trying to raise her children decently and honestly. It was tough for her, and alone.

Mr. Griffin. How did your father feel towards the children?

Mr. Rubenstein. I can’t find the word for it but it wasn’t like—wasn’t—he loved the children but I believe since he didn’t have to have an education he felt that grammar school was good enough for all of us, and that is what we should have done. But my mother felt differently. She realized that you have got to have an education to progress, and maybe that is why we all felt more for our mother than we did for our father as a parent.

Mr. Griffin. Your father ultimately came back and lived with you?

Mr. Rubenstein. After my mother died.

Mr. Griffin. Not before?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. Of all of the children in the family, who do you think is the one who has paid the most attention to this early family life and would have the most information to contribute on it?

Mr. Rubenstein. I imagine Eva. Eva is a pretty smart woman. She could, she was at home most of the time and I think she could, tell more about the family than any of us. She has a very good memory, too, by the way, which is important.

Mr. Griffin. How close were you to Jack as he was growing up?

Mr. Rubenstein. I wasn’t home much. I told you. You have got the history of my life here. I wasn’t home much. I am about 10 years older than Jack so when he was 15, I was already 25. I was working and traveling on the road, and whatever he was doing as long as he didn’t get into any serious trouble I felt it is OK.

Except one incident and I found this out not so long ago. On the West Side on Roosevelt Road there used to be a place called the Lawndale, it is a restaurant. During the Roosevelt administration some character made a wisecrack about Roosevelt. Jack picked up a chair and was going to hit him right in the head with that and got stopped by two guys.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see this?

Mr. Rubenstein. No; but I was told this by fellows who have no direct connection with them.

Mr. Griffin. Who were those fellows?

Mr. Rubenstein. I can give you the name of the owner of the tavern, I can mail it to you, and the fellow who told it to him was afraid to get involved because he has got a record and I said, “What are you afraid of?”

He said, “I don’t want to get involved.”

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember the name of the tavern owner?

Mr. Rubenstein. I can find it for you. I can give it to you, I can mail it to you as soon as I get back to Chicago.

Mr. Griffin. Why don’t you make a note of it and mail it to us.

Mr. Rubenstein. Sure, this came as a complete surprise to me because we tried to get, we tried to get, some information from the boys how he reacted away from home, and when a fellow told me this, I almost fell through the floor. I know this, Jack went out to the northwest side many times and broke up Bund meetings. That is one thing he wouldn’t go for.

Mr. Griffin. You know this from your own?

Mr. Rubenstein. From my own fact, and not that he will tell anybody. It came also back to me.

Mr. Griffin. This other people have told you?

Mr. Rubenstein. Other people told me. They said, “Your brother is terrific. He just goes in there and breaks up the joint.” He just couldn’t tolerate those guys. Nobody would dare mention the word “Jew” in a derogatory form to him because he would be knocked flat in 2 minutes. That is the kind of a guy he was, hasty, quick, and he was agile, he is built good, he never drank or smoked, and he took care of himself. And I admire him for it and I love him for it.

Mr. Griffin. Did he ever put this strength and physical ability to use in any sort of a job? For example, did he ever act as a bouncer any place?

Mr. Rubenstein. He never liked to show off. He is not that kind of a loud mouth braggadocio, he never went in for that stuff. He hung around Barney Ross all his life. He liked Barney Ross. Everybody liked Barney Ross.

Mr. Griffin. Were you one of Barney Ross’ followers?

Mr. Rubenstein. Naturally when you live on the west side you have got to be a follower.

Mr. Griffin. I mean did you hang around him?

Mr. Rubenstein. No; he was Jack’s age. I knew Barney through Jack, you know, met him.

Mr. Griffin. I take it you were not in a position to know Jack’s friends when Jack was a child.

Mr. Rubenstein. His friends were the fellows who loved life and go out and have a good time. His business associates were fellows who were hustlers and like to make money. So you put two and two together. You find good business associates who are hustlers, and you had to be, without much education, go out and make money, and in the evening you go out and you find the friends you like to spend it with. He never hung around with no hoodlums. We knew hoodlums, sure. If they come into a restaurant where you are, next to them you are sitting, “Hello, Hy,” “Hello, Joe.” What do you do, ignore them? You have known them all your life, you don’t ignore them.

Mr. Griffin. Kids from the neighborhood?

Mr. Rubenstein. Kids from the neighborhood.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have any people in mind?

Mr. Rubenstein. Wherever you lived on the west side there was a hoodlum or became a hoodlum who you went to school with, or you belonged to some club with, or maybe—let me give you another example or you played ball with them. You never knew. You never knew. They surprised you.

Mr. Griffin. Who were Jack’s closest friends before he went to Dallas?

Mr. Rubenstein. He was very popular, he had a lot of friends.

Mr. Griffin. Who were the people he was closest to?

Mr. Rubenstein. What age?

Mr. Griffin. Let’s take it after he got out of high school.

Mr. Rubenstein. Harry Epstein was one, a business promoter. Sam Gordon on the west coast now, very wealthy man, a business promoter.

Mr. Griffin. How about Ira Kolitz?

Mr. Rubenstein. He knew Ira from the Lawndale; he knew Ira.

Mr. Griffin. But they weren’t close?

Mr. Rubenstein. Leave me tell you something now so you people understand. Ira Kolitz comes from one of the finest families in Chicago. His father was a banker on the west side. But living on the west side you are next door—your next-door neighbor might be a hoodlum, you don’t know. Maybe Ira Kolitz went to school with Jack, it could have been. Maybe they hung around the same poolroom together. I was in the Army with Ira. How much Jack hung around with Ira, I don’t know. I know Ira had a couple of taverns downtown; that I did know. Whether a tavern owner is a hoodlum that is another category, that I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. How about Marty Gimpel?

Mr. Rubenstein. He died; poor Marty. Marty was a nice guy; worked for the post office for many years, saved up a nice piece of change, went down to Dallas, Tex.; they tried to promote homes, build homes, out of log cabins. They built one, they sold it and that was the end of that deal as far as I know.

Mr. Griffin. Was Marty friendly with Jack during the thirties?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t know. I imagine; yes.

Mr. Griffin. When did you first become aware that Marty was——

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know Marty in Chicago?

Mr. Rubenstein. I knew of him. Probably met him once or twice at the house.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know when he went to Texas?

Mr. Rubenstein. No. Leave me tell you about Dallas, Tex. I mean anybody that Jack knew when Jack came up to Chicago maybe once every 4 or 5 years. “Come down to Dallas, I have got a proposition for you.” “Come down to Dallas, I have a proposition for you.” Everybody he wanted to come down that he wanted to have a friend down there, that was the kind of a guy he was, or else have a place for him to stay, he probably would have a job for them, or if a proposition come up that this fellow could handle Jack would fix him up for it. That was the kind of guy Jack was; you never go hungry with Jack.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know a fellow in Chicago named Frank Howard?

Mr. Rubenstein. No; never heard the name.

Mr. Griffin. Jack Howard?

Mr. Rubenstein. The musicman?

Mr. Griffin. Is that who he is?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t know, that is the only Jack Howard that I remember.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us how you knew him?

Mr. Rubenstein. I can’t tell you nothing. I don’t know him that well; no.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack know him?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember Jack being in the music business?

Mr. Rubenstein. No; I don’t.

Mr. Griffin. Selling sheet music or anything like that?

Mr. Rubenstein. That is the guy that Jack counted sheet music; that is the guy.

Mr. Griffin. Did your brother Jack sell sheet music?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know a man named Irwin Berke?

Mr. Rubenstein. Never heard of him.

Mr. Griffin. Or Sam Chazin?

Mr. Rubenstein. Never heard of him.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know a fellow by the name of Paul Labriolla?

Mr. Rubenstein. Needlenose; I seen his name in the paper. I never met him.

Mr. Griffin. How about Hershey Colvin?

Mr. Rubenstein. Hershey was an Army buddy of Jack in Mississippi, and Hershey is a gambler by profession, and he now is a bartender on the north side of Chicago. That is about all I can tell you.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us what you mean by a gambler by profession.

Mr. Rubenstein. Well, years ago when everything was open in Chicago, like certain communities were. He is a professional gambler. He dealt cards or he run a crap table, or he was in that particular line. Maybe he booked horses; I don’t know. But I know Hershey.

Mr. Griffin. How about Jimmy Weinberg?

Mr. Rubenstein. Never—I heard of him but I don’t know him.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know Alex Gruber?

Mr. Rubenstein. Never heard of him.

Mr. Griffin. How about Mike Nemzin?

Mr. Rubenstein. Oh, there is a nice guy. Mike is a nice guy, but Mike is not Jack’s friend; he is Earl’s friend.

Mr. Griffin. How about Marty Eritt?

Mr. Rubenstein. Rambler agency in Chicago; very well respected and a very nice guy.

Mr. Griffin. Was he a friend of Jack or was he Earl’s friend?

Mr. Rubenstein. Both. I think Jack introduced him to Earl.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever loan Jack any money while he was down in Dallas?

Mr. Rubenstein. No; I didn’t. Earl did, I think.

Mr. Griffin. How about Eva; did you ever lend her any money down in Dallas?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes. Eva went down there, I don’t know, before the war. What she was doing down there I can’t tell you, how she ever fell in love with that city that is her business. She came up to Chicago one year, and I had a little money hustling around like I told you, buying and selling things for myself. “I got a good spot,” she says. “1717 Ervay Street.” I said, “What do you need?” She says, “I need about a thousand dollars.” I said, “What for?”

She wants to buy a piano, so I bought her a piano and cost me $625 for the piano. She wanted a loudspeaker system for the nightclub, cost me a couple of hundred bucks for that. Then she bought some dishes, and some pots and pans for the restaurant in the back. I said, “O.K. I will ship them all down to you.” We picked out the piano. I got her the loudspeaker system, and the paraphernalia that goes with it, the speakers, and we went down to Maxwell Street and we bought pots and pans and dishes and cups and saucers and shipped it all down to Dallas, Tex. That was the last I heard of it until I went down there. I was subpenaed by the Government by a guy by the name of Paul Jones. They got in a jam. How did she meet Paul Jones? Eva sent him up to Chicago and he is in Chicago and he calls me. I came downtown and I met him. Do you want this part of the story now?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. Rubenstein. Paul is looking over things down in Dallas that they can’t buy. We were looking for stuff in Chicago that you can’t buy either; merchandise, legitimate merchandise. One of the items was pipe. Of course right after the war, you couldn’t buy anything. There was nothing to be had. I made a connection with somebody I don’t remember now—this is 20 years ago—on pipe. So I sent Paul down a small piece of pipe about 6 inches, and I put a sticker on it and I mailed it down to Dallas, and I said, I sent him a letter, how else can you send a piece of pipe, that was the best way. I figured nobody is going to use a piece like that. I put a label on it and I mailed it down to Paul Jones.

I mailed it to the tavern; Eva’s place. He got it.

Mr. Griffin. Had you met Jones before you sent the pipe down?

Mr. Rubenstein. Up here in Chicago. I never heard anything else from Paul Jones. But shortly after I am subpenaed, come down to Dallas by the U.S. District Attorney from Chicago, Al Lehman, who died since, they wanted me to go to Dallas. “What do you know about Paul Jones?” So I told them. He said, “Go down there and tell the truth,” and I did. I go down to Dallas, the district attorney down there cross-examined me for about an hour, and I told him exactly what happened about the pipe deal, and he didn’t like it because he subpenaed me as his witness, here I am testifying for Paul Jones on the pipe deal. I had to tell him the truth. So he got sore at me, and I said, “Look, I don’t want no part of this court; you sent for me and I am telling you the truth,” and he got angry at me. That was it.

I hung around, this was not in Dallas, the trial was in Nuevo Laredo, Tex. It seems that some of Paul’s associates were smuggling dope, by airplane, from Mexico—across the line—and Paul got grabbed. They found my ticket, I think one of my cards, in his pocket. So, I am subpenaed. I am a dope peddler right off the bat. What the hell do I know about dope peddling? And that was the story of my connection with Uncle Sam. I don’t know what year it was, either 1944 or 1945. That was it.

Mr. Griffin. Was it before or after Jack had moved down to Dallas?

Mr. Rubenstein. Jack was in the service.

Mr. Griffin. This was while Jack was in the service?

Mr. Rubenstein. I am almost positive.

Mr. Griffin. Jack didn’t testify in that trial, did he?

Mr. Rubenstein. No.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall being questioned by Federal narcotics agents in connection with Jones?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Was that—were you questioned about that before or after the trial?

Mr. Rubenstein. It must have been before the trial because after the trial they let me go. They didn’t even bother with me after that because I was no good to them.

Mr. Griffin. So the best way to date it when you went down there was when the Federal narcotics agents questioned you in Chicago?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes. Al Lehman, I think, was the one who questioned me.

Mr. Griffin. How about Jack, was he questioned at the same time?

Mr. Rubenstein. Jack was in the Army.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t have any recollection of his being questioned?

Mr. Rubenstein. Jack was never in Dallas before in his life. He didn’t know nothing about Dallas. He never met Jones. I met Jones through Eva.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t ever remember meeting Jones with Jack?

Mr. Rubenstein. I told you Jack did not know Jones.

Mr. Griffin. Well now, if the record showed differently, would you think you might be mistaken?

Mr. Rubenstein. No; I am almost positive. Because this was before Jack went down there.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember a time when Jack was living at the Sherman Hotel?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. All right. When was that?

Mr. Rubenstein. When he came out of the Army.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall if during part of the period when he was living at the Sherman Hotel he also went down to Dallas for a while to see Eva?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t remember that.

Mr. Griffin. Incidentally, when Jack was in Chicago were there times when he did not live with the family?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes; when he stayed at the Sherman Hotel.

Mr. Griffin. Any other time?

Mr. Rubenstein. Either the Sherman or the Congress, one of the two hotels I know he stayed.

Mr. Griffin. For how long was he living in a hotel?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t know, after he got out of the service.

Mr. Griffin. Why was it that he was not living with the family?

Mr. Rubenstein. He had sold out his business to my brother Earl or part of his interest to my brother Earl, and he had some money, and so he felt he wanted to live by himself for a while, which is all right. I mean he was no kid any more, he was a man.

Mr. Griffin. Was there room for him at home?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any contact with Jack during the fall of 1963 prior to the time that the President was assassinated?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us about your contact with Jack?

Mr. Rubenstein. In the fall of 1963. Let me tell you when the first time was. He called me on the phone, the records you get from the telephone company, and he is going to send me up—he wanted me to come down and become his manager of the Carousel Club.

Mr. Griffin. When was this?

Mr. Rubenstein. In the fall, sometime in the fall of 1963 and he also told me in 1962 he wanted me to come down——

Mr. Griffin. Let’s talk about this being the manager first before we get into the other thing.

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Why did he need a manager?

Mr. Rubenstein. He wanted someone in the family to run the place.

Mr. Griffin. What was he going to do?

Mr. Rubenstein. He was going—he used to come down later. Jack did not come down early. A manager has got to be there from 4:30 until closing. Jack used to come down around, I understand, nine or ten o’clock in the evening. Probably he belonged to a couple of the clubs there, I understand he was a member of the YMCA and the Dallas Athletic Club I think he was a member of—maybe even had a girl friend or two, I don’t know.

Anyway, he asked me to come down and be the manager. I could not see working in a place 7 days a week, I couldn’t stand the noise in the striptease joints, those brassy bands, you know. I know right away that was out.

Mr. Griffin. Were you having trouble at that time making a living?

Mr. Rubenstein. No; I had a good job. I was making good money.

Mr. Griffin. Now, this is in 1963, this was after you left the Lewis Ribbon Co.

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes; I had a lot of money outstanding on the road from merchandise I had sold to my customers and that was more important to me than taking any kind of a job.

Mr. Griffin. This wasn’t going to help you out?

Mr. Rubenstein. He thought—he didn’t know what my position was.

Mr. Griffin. But you told him, did you tell him, that you really didn’t need it? That you were doing all right?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes; I told him, I didn’t want no 7-day a week proposition right off the bat, that was No. 1.

No. 2, I was a little bit too old for that kind of a deal. You get to be a certain age you don’t want that noise all night long and you realize it, you don’t have to be there but you can realize it, you can visualize the job. I didn’t want it.

All of a sudden he sends me up, do you know what a twistboard is? I should have brought one with me.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us what it is.

Mr. Rubenstein. I showed it to the FBI. Somebody in Dallas invented a twistboard. It is a square board, two boards, one on top of the other with a ball bearing that separates it in the center.

Mr. Griffin. So that one piece of wood rests on the floor and the other would swivel around on the top of it?

Mr. Rubenstein. And you stand on this and you can twist.

Mr. Griffin. Indicating you stand on the board and twist your body around.

Mr. Rubenstein. “$1.69 retail, hottest thing in the world. Go out and sell it.” I still have it home with the original wrapper and all.

Mr. Griffin. This is what Jack told you?

Mr. Rubenstein. He told me and he also made me a sample.

Mr. Griffin. How many did he mail you?

Mr. Rubenstein. Just one. He mailed Earl one, anybody in Chicago he thought he could contact for promotion he mailed one, because he had the distributorship.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember any——

Mr. Rubenstein. That is the kind of a guy Jack is. He gets a hot item, boom, he wants to go out and sell it, promote it, that is his life.

You can never take that out of a person.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember some of these other things that he did like that?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us about it.

Mr. Rubenstein. When Roosevelt died he was the first one with a plaster of Paris bust, and he sold them all over the country. I don’t know, it wasn’t much. He probably paid them $1 apiece for them and sold them for $2.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know who manufactured them?

Mr. Rubenstein. No; but somebody in Chicago done Jack a favor, they made him a mold and kept on making these things for him and he either shipped them or took them and sold them by himself, always something, anything that is hot, he is right there out with it.

Mr. Griffin. Any others; can you think of any others?

Mr. Rubenstein. Punchboard deals. He would pick up items that the average person couldn’t afford to buy. Let’s say a small radio, probably would retail for about $18 or $19 he would arrange on a punchboard card that from 1 to 39 cents the winner would get the radio and the guy selling the board would get a radio, that the radios would probably cost him about $5 apiece because they would buy lots of them, small radios, little ones, cheaply constructed. Well, you walk into a plant and get hold of a foreman and say, “Would you like one of these for yourself?” “Sure.” “Well, sell out the punchcard on their lunch hour, mail me the money, give the winner this radio and I will mail you a radio.” Perfect. Good gimmick.

Mr. Griffin. As I understand it then, part of the punchboard gimmick was that he would give some merchandise away with it, is that right?

Mr. Rubenstein. That is right. Incentive. Otherwise, why should the foreman take the board? The foreman wants one exactly like he is going to give to the winner, and there was always enough profit left over for Jack to sufficiently cover his expenses, and make a little profit on the side, and that was one of his other promotion deals.

What else did he do? During the football seasons when he was a kid, you know, these little footballs with the school colors. He would go out to the games, Wisconsin, Ohio, Champaign, Mich., he would leave on the Friday morning with some fellow who had a car and they would load up the car with these emblems and these different school things and he would sell them.

That is another one of the things he did when he was—after he got out of high school—I forgot to tell you that. That was a good deal for him.

Mr. Griffin. Can you think of anything else? While he was in Dallas, did he call you with anything else beside the twistboard, any other promotions he had? How about entertainers?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes. He had more trouble—this is a guy in charge of the union down there was giving Jack a headache.

Mr. Griffin. I am not asking you for his problems now, did he promote any entertainers?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us about that.

Mr. Rubenstein. He came up to Chicago on one time with a little colored boy by the name of Sugar Daddy, was about 10 years old.

Mr. Griffin. Would this have been Little Daddy Nelson?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t know; I don’t know the extra name but there was a little colored boy who was the greatest pianoplayer and singer for a kid 10 years of age.

Jack took him to Chicago, tried to get him on the TV and tried to get him on radio, and we went to New York, Jack spent all this money, and the deal was all set, with even a tutor for the kid, a tutor, all set, the contract was going to be signed, and everything, and he had to give the mother and father 25 percent or something like that of the kid’s earnings and Jack took 25 percent, I think for his work and expenses, and the kid would get the rest of the 50 percent and all the money for the tutoring would come out of the kid, expenses and so forth, all set and signed. This you will never believe. A second mother shows up. You know that would make a story in itself.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us about it.

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t know, that is it. That is all.

Mr. Griffin. How did you learn about the second mother?

Mr. Rubenstein. From Eva.

Mr. Griffin. When did you learn about this?

Mr. Rubenstein. Way after; Jack was advised by his lawyer in order to avoid a lot of legal difficulties, and all that stuff, drop it, and Jack dropped it like a hot potato. You can get yourself into a lot of trouble, two mothers. Talk about Jack with his promotions. That is the kind of a guy Jack was, you would love him, nice guy, likable guy. Do you a favor any time.

Mr. Griffin. What other promotions can you think of?

Mr. Rubenstein. It is really funny. Jack’s promotions. I wish I could think of all of them. Ever since he was a kid. I can’t think offhand now. But when I heard about that two-mother deal that was really funny.

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear about the two-mother problem before or after the President was killed?

Mr. Rubenstein. Oh, this is long before.

Mr. Griffin. So this is something that was, you all knew about?

Mr. Rubenstein. I am just trying to give you the background of Jack’s life, what kind of a guy Jack was. He would never hurt anybody, I mean either physically or mentally. He loved life, he loved a story, he loved to laugh, he loved women, and—but don’t hurt him, don’t hurt him or you would never hear the end of it. He was very sensitive, very sensitive.

Mr. Griffin. Give us some examples of that.

Mr. Rubenstein. Well, I gave you one about the Roosevelt chair, and I am trying to think of something very important in his life. Yes; he popped Eva on the nose one time.

Mr. Griffin. How did that happen?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t know. Something about chop suey. I wasn’t there. He popped my own sister on the nose. That is the kind of a guy he was, something quick, something broke in him and he hit her, hit her right in the nose, which isn’t like our family.

Mr. Griffin. So when you say he wouldn’t hurt anybody, what do you mean by that?

Mr. Rubenstein. I mean he wouldn’t go out of the way and start a fight. I mean he wouldn’t just pick a fight on the street.

Mr. Griffin. He did fight with people on the street?

Mr. Rubenstein. Oh, yes; oh, sure—sure. That is because they were doing something to, something to hurt him.

Mr. Griffin. Or at least he felt they did?

Mr. Rubenstein. That is right. He wouldn’t start anything. Let’s put it that way. He wouldn’t start anything. He would let the other guy start it. That would be the end.

Mr. Griffin. Well, when you say he wouldn’t start anything, he sometimes would strike the first blow, wouldn’t he? He didn’t wait for the other guy to hit him?

Mr. Rubenstein. That is true. But there must have been cause to lead up to it.

Mr. Griffin. You feel that these—were there any times when you observed him in a fight?

Mr. Rubenstein. No.

Mr. Griffin. So what you are telling us about his fights you heard from other people, fights that he did get in? How about arguments? Have you observed him in arguments with people?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes; he was a little bit stubborn with his arguments. When he felt he had a certain idea that was it. He was a hard person to change or to convince.

Mr. Griffin. Do you think—was Jack a personally ambitious person?

Mr. Rubenstein. Oh, definitely.

Mr. Griffin. What were his aspirations and his ambitions? I want you to tell us from your own personal knowledge. Do you have any personal knowledge of what his aspirations and ambitions were, did he ever talk to you about that?

Mr. Rubenstein. No; but I feel he always wanted to be successful and he was capable, and always trying to meet the right type of people, where he could either be friendly or have knowledge to a promotion. Let’s put it that way. To him a promotion was the greatest thing in his life, something to have exclusive that was his, with his experience in selling items and promoting items, or promoting an individual, where he would get some profit out of it, that was his ambition.

Mr. Griffin. Well, was he interested in the promotion aside from making money, was he interested in any notoriety that he might get out of it?

Mr. Rubenstein. Jack was not the type, I am trying to tell you. Jack was not the notorious type of a person. Because of all the fights that he had, he never came home and told us about one. We had to hear it from his friends.

Mr. Griffin. Did he do anything, did he promote anything which would have also involved the promotion of himself?

Mr. Rubenstein. Explain that.

Mr. Griffin. Well, for example, in the promotion of this Little Daddy, would it have become known that, generally known that, this was Jack’s boy? Would Jack have received some recognition for that?

Mr. Rubenstein. Possibly. It is possible naturally being in the entertainment field and Jack was learning more and more about the entertainment field and the prospects of promotion in another form, naturally he would have to be recognized as he is the one who found Sugar Daddy.

Mr. Griffin. Can you think of any other thing that he was promoting, any products that he was promoting?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes; some vitamin deal down there. He mailed us a sample that somebody was making something down there but I couldn’t see it. He mailed me a sample of that, too, I believe. Somebody was making a vitamin pill down there that Jack got ahold of and he became the distributor.

Mr. Griffin. He wanted you to sell them. You started out to tell us about the twistboard.

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And how Jack contacted you on the twistboard. Tell us what happened.

Mr. Rubenstein. He wanted me to call on the department stores on the road. He says that is where they sell best. I would make about $3 a dozen which is a good deal, because if they start selling the reorders would come in automatically, the missionary work is hard, when you are making $3 a dozen on an item that sells for $1.69 that is a pretty good profit.

Mr. Griffin. So you thought Jack’s idea as far as pricing was concerned, he was talking about selling them for $1.69?

Mr. Rubenstein. Retail, I think so.

Mr. Griffin. Retail for somewhere less than $2?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And you would have made?

Mr. Rubenstein. Three dollars a dozen.

Mr. Griffin. Three dollars a dozen, which would have been how much on each item?

Mr. Rubenstein. A quarter on each item.

Mr. Griffin. Is that the normal?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes; for a salesman, yes; that is about right. Especially for an item like that, I don’t think it costs very much to make, to be honest with you. Two pieces of board, and some kind of a gimmick in the center in between.

Mr. Griffin. All right. What was your response to that one?

Mr. Rubenstein. I hadn’t had a chance to take it out. It was shortly before the incident.

Mr. Griffin. Did he send you anything else in connection with it besides the board?

Mr. Rubenstein. Literature. I think I got some literature if I can find it. I have got the board home, that I can show you, with the original wrapper.

Mr. Griffin. Did he ask you to advertise in any newspapers or anything for him?

Mr. Rubenstein. No; I don’t remember that.

Mr. Griffin. Was it your intention to try to sell these and promote them?

Mr. Rubenstein. I didn’t ask him for the board. He just mailed it to me with all the literature after he spoke to me about it.

Mr. Griffin. How many times did he speak to you about it?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t remember, several times, I would say.

Mr. Griffin. Was he going to have a company name or anything that he was going to use?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What was it called?

Mr. Rubenstein. Spartan; you see his nickname is “Sparky.” He was going to call it Spartan Manufacturing and Promotional.

Mr. Griffin. How did he get the nickname “Sparky”?

Mr. Rubenstein. Fast, aggressive, quick thinker, always on the ball, you know, I imagine that is where he got the name.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t really know of your own knowledge?

Mr. Rubenstein. No; but how else would a fellow get a name “Sparky”. Like a sparkplug, fast, you know, lightning.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack have occasion to call you in the fall of last year before November 22 for any reason other than about the twistboard?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes; union trouble.

Mr. Griffin. When did he call you about that?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t remember the exact date.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us what he said to you and what you said to him about the union trouble.

Mr. Rubenstein. I can’t give you the exact words but I will come close to it. He wanted me to contact some people in Chicago who had connections with AGVA in New York, the president. I didn’t know anybody so I started calling people. I called everybody in Chicago I knew. One of the fellows I called was Jack Yanover. Jack Yanover owns the Dream Bar at 1312 South Cicero Avenue, a striptease joint.

Jack and I are old friends for many years, in fact, he is one of the oldest friends I have. Jack told me two things, Jack Yanover. First, my brother Jack was looking for girls down there, was only going to pay them $150 a week for 6 weeks’ work. So Jack Yanover explained to me, he says, “You cannot get a girl to go down to Dallas for 6 weeks’ work for $150 a week and she will have to pay her own expenses, that is out. They won’t do it.” And the second problem was with the union. Jack Yanover told me that the people in Chicago, the agents, the union agents, had no connection with the agents in Dallas. It would have to come from New York, and Joey Adams, I think, is one of the big men in the organization, the entertainer Joey Adams, president. So I tried to call some people in Chicago who could get to Joey Adams or anybody else in the New York deal. I didn’t succeed, let’s put it that way. I remember now. We didn’t succeed. It was just one of those things that didn’t work out, and if I am not mistaken I think Jack tried to call some of the other boys in Chicago, one bail bondsman, I can’t think of his name, and then he tried to call Lenny Patrick, I believe, Lenny Patrick, and then I think he tried to call somebody else.