Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. You are sure that was in connection with Leonard Wood?

Mrs. Grant. That is what I heard.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you this. Could it have happened Saturday night?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know if he told Andy. I know Crafard didn’t have any money. “Put it in an envelope and you go next door, and there will be $10 for you.”

Mr. Griffin. Well?

Mrs. Grant. Maybe you are right. Maybe it was Saturday. I know the call came to the house. That is all I know, and I know I talked to Leonard.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk to Leonard about the money in the envelope, or did Jack talk to him about the money in the envelope?

Mrs. Grant. I talked to him, because Jack was talking to me, and I was relating it on the phone, but I did not call anyone to tell them where to put the envelope. That I do remember. If I did, I don’t remember, and I don’t want to be quoted that I do remember. And I am not trying to get out of it. I know we put—there was supposed to be left $10 one of those nights.

Mr. Griffin. But you have no recollection of talking with Branch any time over that weekend?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t have. I know I had talked to him in the last month at that time.

Mr. Griffin. Mrs. Grant, how long did Jack stay at your house? When did he leave your house on Saturday night?

Mrs. Grant. 8 o’clock, or 10 to 8, or 10 after 8.

Mr. Griffin. Could it have been as late as 11 o’clock?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, no; no. I tell you what happened. May I?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mrs. Grant. He came over, and he was excited and goofy. Said he had been to the post office, connected with the Morning News. He said the box is full of mail. He said it some commie. He takes out three pictures. It is postalcard pictures, and in the left-hand corner there was a picture of Earl Warren.

He told me he had a fight at the bar, and I know the man Solomon at the Turf Bar or Surf. It is on Commerce Street. And he said he nearly took a swing at a guy. And I want you to know, I do not know this person. I don’t think I ever talked to him yet. If I have, I don’t remember. It seems to me our accountant was in there, Abe Kleinman. He said there is a little weasel or creep was in there, and he said, “I am leaving Dallas. This is a hell of a place. We got a black mark here.” And that is when Jack picked up his hand, and said, “I will take a whack at you.” He picked up his hand and said something to the effect, “I ought to take a whack at you for things like that. You made all your money here and now you are running out. There is nothing wrong. This is the best city in all this business.” And he said he called Gordon. Oh, he called Gordon McLendon. I don’t know what went on. Of course, I didn’t give a damn, and I went to take a shower.

Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you that he had been to the police station the night before?

Mrs. Grant. No; this is Saturday afternoon. Now, see, you skipped over Friday night late after the synagogue.

Mr. Griffin. You didn’t see him Friday night?

Mrs. Grant. He called me.

Mr. Griffin. After the synagogue he called you?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Where did he call you?

Mrs. Grant. He said he was in Phil’s.

Mr. Griffin. In Phil’s?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What did he say to you?

Mrs. Grant. He said, “Do you have the private number of KLIF?” I thought he was nuts. You want to know why? I never had any reason to call over there for a private number and little bit I know they had any.

Mr. Griffin. He called and said he wanted to know the number of whom?

Mrs. Grant. Of Russ Knight. And why did he ask me the number. I hadn’t had Russ Knight’s number in the last 2 years, because he played a record of Joe Johnson, and I gave it to Russ Knight. But I couldn’t think in—I couldn’t think of his last name, and I didn’t think we were going to find out.

To make a long story short, he said he was in Phil’s, and I don’t know if he was in Phil’s on the highway or the one in the neighborhood. The first thing he wanted to know is how I felt, because I was pretty bad. And I asked him if he had gone to the synagogue and he said, “Yes.” He said, “What are you doing?” Truthfully, I was watching and not hearing, but it didn’t mean a thing any more, because I was already—he said he was going to the station, and this is something I want to get very clear. I didn’t give a damn if he went to the radio station or police station. I don’t know what idea, because he knows somebody everywhere he goes, they know him. I assumed he had friends there. And he asked me if I remembered Russ’ name? At the time I didn’t even remember who he was talking about. He said, “The weird beard.” I don’t know who he was talking about, and it didn’t make any difference to me. This was late. He said after he had been to the synagogue, it wasn’t before 10:30—it could have been around midnight—there was no conception of time any more for me that following evening.

Now, the next day, he called me sometime in the afternoon. He came over about 3:40. He says, “I went to a mailbox.” He said that in the middle of the night he took pictures, and he told me a bunch of stories. And in his mind, Bernard Weissman was a gentile using a Jewish name to implicate the Jews again and all this business. I said, “He is probably some Commie.” And while in my home, and this I heard, he called Stanley Kaufman. And I don’t know what went on on the other side, and he is telling him this, he says, “He is out of town, but I am going to take this to the FBI.” And I asked him during that time, I said, “What are you going to do with it?”

There were a lot of things that happened Friday and Saturday. I am not smart about politics or the phrases they use always, whether they are right or wrong. He said, “I got a scoop for Gordon.” And I said, “What are you going to do with it?” And he said, “I am going to take it Monday to give it to the FBI.” And I thought he said it said, “Impeach Earl Warren.”

Mr. Griffin. Did he know who Earl Warren was?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes; he is quite familiar with the position he holds in the United States.

Mr. Griffin. Did he know at that time who he was?

Mrs. Grant. I am sure he did.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember him making a telephone call to Russ Knight from your apartment Saturday?

Mrs. Grant. Now, let me tell you, I know he called him. No; I know he called Stanley. This, I swear my life. He may have. I don’t want to be held responsible for saying that he did or didn’t.

Mr. Griffin. All I ask is if you remember?

Mrs. Grant. No; sir, but he made calls.

Mr. Griffin. Who do you remember him calling from your apartment on Saturday?

Mrs. Grant. I know in this conversation he said this, “I went all through the telephone book and I went along Oak Cliff Avenue, and I even went to the city directory.” Now, whether I had said something to him earlier or then, or what, but I figured that would be the police. It is in the back of my mind. I said something, whether I was telling him to go, or he told me he had been, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Who was he telling this bit about?

Mrs. Grant. He was telling, mostly he talked, I would say, 15 minutes anyway to Stanley Kaufman, his attorney here in town.

Mr. Griffin. About the city directory?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know about that, but I know we talked about it. He said he was looking for Bernard Weissman.

Mr. Griffin. Where?

Mrs. Grant. You messed up on a lot of stuff that went on Friday.

Mr. Griffin. Did it take place in your presence?

Mrs. Grant. This conversation was made in front of me, and this is what I heard.

Mr. Griffin. Have you missed anything on Friday that took place in your presence?

Mrs. Grant. Well, Betty Gouchuin came with the newspaper on Friday morning at 10 a.m.

Mr. Griffin. We covered that.

Mrs. Grant. Even the second time after the conversation, and while he wasn’t there, I read the darn thing, and I am going to tell you the truth, I am not smart enough to detect if there is any animosity. It is like we sent wheat to Russia.

Mr. Griffin. Did he talk——

Mrs. Grant. He asked me did I see the ad, and I said, “Yes, but I didn’t like it. I looked at it.” And since he has already been fed up and fouled up in the newspaper office, when he came Friday he brought me back the morning paper and the evening paper with “The President is dead,” and he said, “Look at it.” He said different things like, “Any other city would be honored to have him visit them. Of all the cities in the United States to have the President to come here.”

Mr. Griffin. Let’s get back to Saturday with this understanding that if there is anything that took place in your presence or that Jack said to you on Saturday that we haven’t covered already? We are finished with Friday. When you read this transcript again, if there is anything that comes to your mind in reading that transcript, write it out and send it to us. But let’s go on to Saturday. Let’s stay on Saturday. Now, the telephone calls, you said he called Stanley Kaufman?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Griffin. What did he talk to Stanley Kaufman about that you heard?

Mrs. Grant. He went to the post office, and he was still talking about these pictures, and he said he couldn’t find a name like that anywhere. He implied that this was not a Jewish man that did it. It was a gentile, and he just wanted to get the Jews in trouble.

Mr. Griffin. He implied that?

Mrs. Grant. Well, yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did he actually say that?

Mrs. Grant. No; I could tell from the way he worded. You don’t have to say a lot of things if you know a person as well as I know Jack.

Mr. Griffin. Did you arrive at that conclusion on Saturday when you were talking to him, or is that some conclusion you——

Mrs. Grant. This was Friday. Well, no, I got to thinking that (pause), I had said this to him. “It could be a gentile with a name just like that,” and didn’t think anything of it.

Mr. Griffin. Why did you suggest to him that it might be a gentile?

Mrs. Grant. I said in words that it might be a gentile, with a name like that.

Mr. Griffin. What made you think that?

Mrs. Grant. Because I know a lot of Swedes, like the name Swanson, or Peter. I know a lot of Jewish people named Miller.

Mr. Griffin. What gave you the idea that the Weissman ad was put in by a gentile?

Mrs. Grant. Nothing any more than I was just trying to cover—not cover up—maybe in my subconscious mind I didn’t want a Jew to be connected with it either.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack suggest that to you, or you to him, first?

Mrs. Grant. This is it. We both feel—we don’t have the feeling that anyone would be such a low life.

Mr. Griffin. Do you understand my question?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t remember which one said it. We felt that way. We talked about it. I could have said a lot of things.

Mr. Griffin. Mrs. Grant, what do you remember saying to Jack about the Weissman ad on Saturday afternoon or evening?

Mrs. Grant. I asked him, I said, “Did you look in the city directory?” I probably indicated stuff like he is a Commie, and by Saturday he already changed. I figured I talked about Birchers.

Mr. Griffin. Mrs. Grant, on Friday when you talked with Jack about the Weissman ad, did you suggest to him, or was there any talk that Weissman might not be a Jew?

Mrs. Grant. He was a commie straight with Oswald.

Mr. Griffin. On Friday when you talked about the ad; is that right?

Mrs. Grant. I mean, he implied little things like that. After all, it is my brother. We have a right to have private conversations.

Mr. Griffin. I see.

Mrs. Grant. I maybe even said, “Jew” to rile up everybody.

Mr. Griffin. When you first talked with Mr. Burleson about this, did you tell him what you have just been telling us here?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know. If he remembers, he is doing better than I am doing. If he thinks I lied, or I am not telling the truth, I don’t know—did I leave something out?

Mr. Burleson. Not that I know.

Mrs. Grant. Saturday afternoon he brought me three pictures, and he is reading them, and this is on the paper, “Impeach Earl Warren,” and he thinks this is commies and Birchers. That is when it all came, to remember about Birchers, and I know very little about them, and I know less about communism.

Mr. Griffin. Did he mention any literature by H. L. Hunt?

Mrs. Grant. He had that literature for some time. I think he had that literature a couple of weeks.

Mr. Griffin. Did he talk to you about that literature after?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; he hated him.

Mr. Griffin. Hated whom?

Mrs. Grant. H. L. Hunt.

Mr. Griffin. When did he mention this to you?

Mrs. Grant. He don’t have to say he hates. I know my brother. If a man looks at his wife, he don’t have to tell me. He implies he hates her. This was something—he went someplace and he told me something that, I think we read this in the paper, I will be honest about it, that at the World’s Fair they don’t want them in. I don’t know where I got the information.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember any radio script he got from H. L. Hunt?

Mrs. Grant. It seems to me the day I was in his car, he took me from the hospital, and I think he had it in there before I even went to the hospital, I don’t know. It seems to me in October or September I seen something that my brother didn’t like in Life Line. I can’t use the words for this machine.

Mr. Griffin. Can you remember any other phone calls that he made on Saturday from your apartment?

Mrs. Grant. He made a lot of them. He was there until almost 8 o’clock, or 10 after 8. He did not leave before 7:30, and he was out of my house before 8:30, but he spent a good 4 hours Saturday, and he slept a little bit. He said he hadn’t slept for two or three nights.

Mr. Griffin. Did he call Tom O’Grady from your apartment?

Mrs. Grant. He may have.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember that?

Mrs. Grant. In the back of my mind, he may have; yes. Now, I don’t know. You know what, I am going to tell you something. I wasn’t too, what do you call it when you can’t recall your thoughts—it was 2 terrible days. It was the worst days for me than a lot of people, because I was taking pills.

Mr. Burleson. Amnesia?

Mrs. Grant. No; I was more like in a trance. I was sick physically. I was taking these pills. The shock of the President knocked me off gear. I thought the world was coming to an end. My brother sitting there like a broken man crying. All this went until days for me.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack call Ralph Paul from your apartment?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; I think he did. He may have even called Friday, I don’t know. If it is on my bill.

Mr. Griffin. Did you call Ralph?

Mrs. Grant. No. I think I called him that following Sunday, the 24th.

Mr. Griffin. But you didn’t call him on Friday or Saturday?

Mrs. Grant. No; I had very little business with Ralph Paul. Not that I remember. It would have to be an exceptionally good reason, and I don’t know what reason it would have been.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack receive a telephone call from Little Lynn while he was at your apartment?

Mrs. Grant. Not that I can recall. The phone did ring, but I couldn’t say who it was. But I remember the Friday night, because Andy called.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall the telephone call from somebody asking Jack for some money on Saturday night?

Mrs. Grant. I remember I spoke with Leonard Wood about he wanted some money. Either I picked up the phone—I thought it was Friday night. Now, if it wasn’t, I am quite mixed up. In fact, until recently, I forgot about giving him $10 until Sunday morning, and this only came to me recently.

Mr. Griffin. Mrs. Grant, on Saturday night from your apartment, did Jack call a man named Lawrence Meyers?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know Lawrence Meyers?

Mrs. Grant. No. Who is he? I would like to know who he is. Someone else asked me.

Mr. Griffin. A friend of Jack’s from Chicago.

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know who he was. Was he in Chicago, the fellow?

Mr. Griffin. No; he was in Dallas.

Mrs. Grant. I never heard the name, believe me, so help me God. I don’t even know who you are talking about. I know Lenny Patrick. I know who he is, and I haven’t seem him in 35 years. We are very well acquainted!

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack——

Mrs. Grant. Who is this guy, a racketeer? I want to know. I want to find out.

Mr. Griffin. He is not a racketeer. He is a perfectly legitimate man, but a friend of Jack’s.

Mrs. Grant. Who is he? I want to find out.

Mr. Griffin. He sells sports goods.

Mrs. Grant. That is more like my brother’s friends. I once had lunch with a judge. That doesn’t make me a judge.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t think I am accusing you of anything?

Mrs. Grant. No; I like you, but I want you to try to understand that we are not children. If we were 20 years of age, we only have many acquaintances. Jack and I traveled a great deal, and we met many people. Jack has a vast amount of knowledge of people’s names. That is more than I have.

Mr. Griffin. Let me say this, that in the testimony we have been taking today, I don’t think there has been any suggestion of any accusations—I have simply been trying to find out from you what you did.

(U.S. Attorney H. Barefoot Sanders enters room.)

Mrs. Grant (to Mr. Sanders). If you hear hollering, it is me. You want to shut me down and not let me explain this. When you run a business like we have, people come up and, you don’t go up and ask what business are you in.

Mr. Griffin. Look, you don’t even have to go into this, as far as I am concerned, because all I want to find out about is what you did on Saturday night and Sunday, and I only mentioned Mr. Meyers’ name, not to suggest he was a racketeer or anything like that.

Mrs. Grant. I would like to know who he was.

Mr. Griffin. Well, I have told you.

Mrs. Grant. I appreciate it, and I want to thank you, because someone else asked me.

Mr. Griffin. We will give Mr. Burleson his address. In fact, I think Mr. Burleson already has his address.

Mrs. Grant. How come you don’t ask Harry Rosenthal why he goes to Las Vegas every weekend? I want to know why you don’t ask him.

Mr. Griffin. Let’s stay on the track.

Mrs. Grant. If he came to visit me, would it make me a gambler? I wish I had money to gamble. I like to go to the racetracks.

Mr. Burleson. No; you don’t, either.

Mr. Griffin. Mrs. Grant, when Jack left your apartment on Saturday night, did he say where he was going?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Where was he going?

Mrs. Grant. When I first told the story, I had forgotten about his saying he was going to the club, something to talk to Andy, or to go to the garage about the money again. It had to do with leaving money again.

Mr. Griffin. Let’s——

Mrs. Grant. But this is what he had in mind.

Mr. Griffin. Let’s get back on this, now.

Mrs. Grant. He didn’t eat at my house this Saturday. In fact, he spent so much time, all he drank was juice.

Mr. Griffin. How did this money thing that he had to take care of downtown, how did that come up?

Mrs. Grant. Well, you see, you have confused me. I don’t know if that was Leonard Wood’s deal or anybody else, but it seems to me in the back of my mind there was someone else that needed money, and I don’t know who to put the finger on that asked, because with all the help, and it was something to do with his club. At least that is what it seems to me. In one of those conversations, either Friday or Saturday, he said, “You stay there until 9 o’clock.” On Saturday night, it could not have been Larry, because when Jack came in the afternoon, he told me, “Guess what, Larry left me a note and took some money. He is mad at me.” And I said, “Why?” He said, “Because I didn’t leave him money, or something, I didn’t buy dogfood.”

He said, “Well, don’t you take money,” or something. I heard this. This is what Jack told me, something about dogfood. And I said, “Why did he leave?” He said, “Well, after we took the pictures, I told him I am going to be up, I feel good, I am going to go here,” and Jack talked like that, and I do too. But instead of that, he went home, because this is the morning of the 23d after he was up all night. Well, I don’t know if he slept, because he didn’t get home till 2:30 or 3 or 4. He called Larry and got him out of bed, and they went to take the pictures, and took these pictures sometime.

Mr. Griffin. This is something you didn’t see?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Griffin. They told you? Jack told you all this when?

Mrs. Grant. George told me.

Mr. Griffin. When did George tell you that?

Mrs. Grant. Well, I don’t know when I saw him. It was the next time, but I don’t remember when I saw him. I didn’t see him that Sunday, that I remember.

Mr. Griffin. This was sometime after Oswald was shot?

Mrs. Grant. Oh yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack tell you about this?

Mrs. Grant. The pictures, I saw myself, three pictures.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, when Jack came up to your apartment Saturday afternoon, what did you spend most of your time doing? Talking, or watching television or what?

Mrs. Grant. No; he didn’t watch it at all. I know he didn’t. In fact, he fell asleep for over an hour on my bed. This is the first time he has ever done that. He noticed I got a new spread a month and a half ago, and since it cost $20.50 apiece, I have twin beds, he didn’t even pull the top down, and there is a big oil spot from his head, and I was going to give him hell on Sunday.

Mr. Griffin. How long after he showed up at your place did he go in there and rest?

Mrs. Grant. He came about 20 to 4. He was there almost to 8, or 10 after 8. It seems to me there were many hours. He talked and called Stanley and took the phone in the bedroom. He laid down, and then got up, and when he left, he told me he was going home to eat. I think he called George.

Mr. Griffin. Now, Mrs. Grant, let’s see, maybe we can pinpoint when he was sleeping there. How long after he woke up did he leave your apartment? About how much time elapsed?

Mrs. Grant. Well, I would say maybe an hour. Maybe 40 minutes.

Mr. Griffin. How long had he been in your apartment before he went to sleep?

Mrs. Grant. A few hours.

Mr. Griffin. Then he didn’t sleep very long?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Griffin. How long would you say he slept?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know. I think I actually fell asleep myself. I hadn’t slept well for a couple of nights. Hadn’t slept all Friday night, and neither did I sleep Saturday during the night, or either Thursday night. That was the reason I would take one of these pills.

Mr. Griffin. Now, Mrs. Grant, if the other evidence showed that Jack arrived down at the Carousel Club about 11 o’clock——

Mrs. Grant. The date?

Mr. Griffin. Listen to me.

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know nothing about that.

Mr. Griffin. Now, listen.

Mrs. Grant. Can I catch you up a little before that?

Mr. Burleson. Let him ask questions, and then you can fill it in.

Mr. Griffin. Let me finish. If the evidence showed that he left and arrived down at the Carousel Club about 11 o’clock at night, and that he received a telephone call about money——

Mrs. Grant. It could be.

Mr. Griffin. At about 10:30 at night.

Mrs. Grant. Not from my place.

Mr. Griffin. It couldn’t have been at your place?

Mrs. Grant. No. Will you listen to me? Don’t forget—Friday night we had all of the delicatessen stuff. This is Saturday. I did not make one thing. He asked me what I had got to eat. I said, “Same thing that you brought yesterday.” That didn’t satisfy him. This is in the back of my mind. He may have called his apartment and George was there, because he made calls. He wasn’t home. I don’t know where he was for 2 hours or 2½ hours.

He was home, it seems to me, after 10. I would say 10:15. He said he took a shower and was getting dressed, and he made liver and onions, or liver. George had bought liver. Whether it was prepared before, or whether it was raw, and Jack had to fry it, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. How did you find out about that?

Mrs. Grant. He was telling me, and he said, “Ask me what I ate?” I said, “I don’t feel like eating. I ate enough for six people, just little bites.” And I said, “Did you eat?” And he said, “Yes George brought a lot of stuff.” George is a Jewish housewife, in my estimation.

Jack called me from his house. He said he had liver. And he was very depressed, and he was droopy depressed. We get high and low, which you probably know. He was so low, I said, “Go see somebody.” And he said, “I don’t want to.” And I said, “You are depressed. Go see somebody.” Well, I don’t know, I mean go see somebody that you like. Now, I didn’t know this then. I did not know this Sunday. I found out maybe a week later or two, I don’t know when. I found out he went to Bob Norton of the Pago-Pago Club.

Mr. Griffin. How do you fix the time in which you told him to go see somebody?

Mrs. Grant. After 10 o’clock.

Mr. Griffin. How do you arrive at that?

Mrs. Grant. Well, I knew it.

Mr. Griffin. I mean, he was watching television. Was it getting late in the evening and he had been gone a couple of hours?

Mrs. Grant. It wasn’t after 11 o’clock, and it wasn’t after 12 o’clock.

Mr. Griffin. Could it have been as early as 9 o’clock?

Mrs. Grant. You know, this sounds crazy. I think he went home and slept a little bit too. I think that is what he told me. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that he could have slept a little bit. And he is a very slow dresser. Anybody that probably can get dressed like in the Army, how they ever tolerated him, because it is hustle bustle, eager beaver—it could take him 3 hours to shave and dress, the way he wants to look like, because he stops and make a phone call, but he was very slow.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack talk to you at all about Breck Wall that Saturday?

Mrs. Grant. I think he made a call to him Friday. Was it?

Mr. Burleson. Saturday.

Mr. Griffin. Did he talk to you about Wall?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What did he say to you about Wall?

Mrs. Grant. It seems to me he is out of town.

Mr. Burleson. Can I give you some testimony. It might shed some light that might help her?

Mrs. Grant. Let me explain this. In all sincerity, I am trying to remember. I have a good memory, but I have been sick, and I have been taking pills, and this is the thing that bothers me.

Mr. Burleson. Let me say this into the record. I am sure the Commission knows Breck Wall is a client of mine who was running a show at the Adolphus Hotel here in Dallas, and he closed down because of the assassination, and he went down to Galveston to visit his parents. And Jack called Breck Wall at night on Saturday night.

Mrs. Grant. That I remember, Galveston.

Mr. Burleson. And was very, very upset.

Mr. Griffin. When you say late, what time did he call?

Mr. Burleson. Between 9 and 11, as best I recall, because he called me the next day when Jack was charged, and asked me to go help Jack, and he told me that he talked to him the night before, and he was very upset, and had just seen it on television, and wanted to see if I could help in any way.

Mrs. Grant. It seems to me he told me—I know the word Galveston, and I didn’t know anybody in Galveston, and he said he talked to Breck. Don’t ask me what he said, I don’t know. I don’t know if he was at the club or at home. Where was he?

Mr. Griffin. Mrs. Grant, after he left your apartment, and called you from his own apartment and you told him——

Mrs. Grant. I want to tell you, I didn’t hear from him for at least 2 hours, it seems to me, from the time he left my home Saturday night, at least 2 hours.

Mr. Griffin. You said, when he left your house, he said he had to go downtown and give somebody some money. You said a couple of hours later he called you and you told him go see somebody?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. All right, are you sure that when he left your house he said he was going to give somebody some money, or did he tell you that in the telephone call that he made a couple of hours later?

Mrs. Grant. It seems that he said something about money.

Mr. Griffin. Was that in the telephone call, or when he got to your house?

Mrs. Grant. It seems to me when he left the house, while he was at the house.

Mr. Griffin. After the telephone call that he made in which you told him to go see somebody, did he call you again?

Mrs. Grant. Wait a minute, let’s get this right. After what?

Mr. Griffin. After the telephone call?

Mrs. Grant. After 10 o’clock.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mrs. Grant. Sure, he called me again.

Mr. Griffin. When did he call you again?

Mrs. Grant. It was almost a quarter to 1, or 20 to 1.

Mr. Griffin. Where was he?

Mrs. Grant. I thought he was home.

Mr. Griffin. What did he say?

Mrs. Grant. He asked me how I was.

Mr. Griffin. What did you say?

Mrs. Grant. Well, I was reading Reader’s Digest, and he asked me was I watching television. Yes, I was watching, but I wasn’t listening. And he said, “What else? What was happening?” And I said, “Nothing.” And I said, “I think they signed off.” And they got terrible; they got terrible music on. What I meant to say was, very depressing music. I said it was from 11, only memorial, and it was some singing, I think, and I go on watching him.

No; I don’t say I was watching, but they turned it off. I think, all the stations went off early.

Mr. Griffin. When he called you this time, did he say anything to you other than just ask you how you were?

Mrs. Grant. I can’t remember all the conversation. He asked me if I called home or something, did I call somebody, it seems to me, but I am confused on Friday and Saturday.

Mr. Griffin. Are you sure that this telephone call we are now talking about occurred at 1 o’clock Sunday morning, or could it have been 1 o’clock Saturday morning?

Mrs. Grant. No. [He could of called me both nights; at that time.] The last time I talked to my brother previously to him shooting Oswald was close to 1 o’clock, was more like 20 to 1, or a quarter of 1—it was after 12:30.

Mr. Griffin. How do you place the time?

Mrs. Grant. Well, because he says to me, “What are you doing?”

My trouble, I have a habit, and this watch stays right there on this long table, and I watch television when it is on.

Mr. Griffin. How long did that telephone call last?

Mrs. Grant. Not too long.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack say to you that he was at his apartment?

Mrs. Grant. No, but it was very quiet. I felt he was there alone.

Mr. Griffin. Did he indicate to you he was going to go anyplace after that telephone call?

Mrs. Grant. No. He could have been at a booth, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Did he indicate anything about the Weinsteins to you in that telephone call?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did he mention the Weinsteins to you on Saturday night?

Mrs. Grant. No. Friday we talked about it. We talked about clubs, and I am sure in the back of his mind he referred to the, what is it, Branch office club.

Mr. Griffin. Did he say anything about doing something to Oswald?

Mrs. Grant. Never even mentioned his name. Never even watched only the one time Friday. He took a look and said something, “What a creep.” He didn’t watch television from my house. Now, I don’t mean he didn’t watch television. If he did, it wasn’t that it would have—where he sits, he don’t face it like I sit opposite it.

Mr. Griffin. Then the next thing you heard from him, heard about Jack was that he had shot Oswald?

Mrs. Grant. May I go back to you and tell you all the things that happened Sunday morning? Is that what you want to know?

Mr. Griffin. I am sure I do. Did you remain at your apartment all Sunday morning?

Did you remain at your apartment all Sunday morning?

Mrs. Grant. Never left it until the time I walked out with Pauline and Bill Rainbow. No, I didn’t leave. No, I stayed there. Pauline and that New York reporter——

Mr. Griffin. Jim Underwood? Ike Pappas?

Mrs. Grant. No. I think his name is something like Denson or Jensen. I think he said New York Times.

Mr. Griffin. At the time were you watching television when your brother shot Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Grant. Let me explain this. I got up early in the morning. I took a pill. I freshened up myself. I didn’t get dressed into my clothes. I went back into the bed. Then I decided to get out, and I turned on television, and all I saw is important people passing the coffin on television, people from all over the world.

I started to put on water, and I didn’t feel good, and I was listening, and then all of a sudden they started, they changed the scene themselves, and I saw a guy with, it seems to me a three-quarters length coat with glasses and a lot of hair, and he is talking, and is mumbling.

Mr. Burleson. Tom?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know who to this very day. I don’t know who they were talking about.

Mr. Griffin. This was on the occasion——

Mrs. Grant. This was after 11 o’clock now.

Mr. Griffin. But this was how you learned that Jack had shot Oswald?

Mrs. Grant. Let me explain this. My phone rang, and I heard this guy say—this may be twisting the words around. “There has been a little excitement here,” and he stopped and he says. “I think they shot Oswald.”

And my phone rang. Leonard Wood was talking to me on the phone. This is all in—whether he was listening to another station, or something, I don’t know, and he is talking to me, and what do you think I said to him, I said, “Leonard, you don’t call me every day. Now don’t tell me, ‘How do you feel, Mrs. Grant?’”

“Fine. Do you know where Jack is at?”

And I said, “No.”

Mr. Griffin. Had Leonard tried to call Jack in the morning?

Mrs. Grant. Now, don’t ask me that. I want to tell you. I don’t know what he tried to do.

Now, we talked about different things, and then he was almost gone, and hanging on, and he said, “Are you watching television, Mrs. Grant?”

And I said, “Yes.”

I was watching, but I wasn’t listening.

Mr. Griffin. How soon did you learn that Oswald had been shot?

Mrs. Grant. I want to tell you how many phone calls I got. This is one for the books. I am talking to him, and I finally said, “Now, listen, Leonard”—I figured he was trying to find Jack to get some money. I said, “Now, listen, Leonard, you know things have been pretty rough in the club, and you got $10 either last night or the night before.”

And he said, “I don’t want any money.” And he said, “Are you all right?”

And I said, “Yes.”

See, he probably—I never got to talk to Leonard. I wish he would come to see me. I don’t know whether he knew of something or what, and he was hemming and hawing over the phone, I didn’t get a chance to put the phone down a second, not a second. The phone rang and Andy said, “Mrs. Grant, this is Andy. Where is Jack? Is Jack with you?”

And I said, “No. He is at home.”

He said, “No, he is not at home.”

I said, “Listen, you know when Jack takes a shower—ring him again.”

And he said, “I rang four or five times.”

I said, “Hang up and call again.”

And he said, “Mrs. Grant, I rang.”

I said, “If he is in the bathroom, he isn’t going to hear the phone.” And we talked—I don’t know if he knew. I mean, this I found out he knew.

I asked him about 2 weeks later, or a week later, and he knew about it.

Wait a minute, I am not through. The phone rang again, and I want to tell you, you may know I put on water for boiling—Madeline Blainey was on the phone.

By this time I got to the television. I only had to walk from there to a few feet. I had it on that wall, maybe 9 feet, and I turned it up, and this is what I heard, “John Logan, no Jack Luby.”

I wanted to back in the kitchen with the phone, and I wasn’t walking too much, and I turned it down.

Madeline is on the phone and says, “How do you feel?”

And I said, “Fine.” I am talking to her, and I turned the damn thing down.

I saw—this is rerun—if it is, I don’t know—I actually saw what the other people saw. This is my conversation with Madeline and why they never went to see her, I will never know.

I am watching it. “Don’t forget,” I said, you get the name, repeat the two names. But I turned it down, because it was too close to the phone.

I wasn’t going to go out of the living room, and I wasn’t going to eliminate one or the other. I wanted to be sure I know both things are going on.

I said, “How are you,” and she said, “OK, who is there?”

And I said, “Who would be there.”

I am wearing my mu-mu my daughter-in-law sent me for Christmas, and I wouldn’t dare let anyone in. I am shooting my mouth off about Joe Johnson. I have a great admiration—he’s a colored boy been with us 8 years. He told me, “We had a fight, not 130 fights, but a fight.”

I said, “Madeline, I want to apologize for sort of neglecting you,” because when I was in the hospital, Madeline and Joe came walking in the very same time to visit me in the hospital. Here both walking in. Madeline and I understand, but this is the guy we want as a band leader to come back.

I said, “Joe, take a seat.”

I said, “Madeline, I hope you don’t resent me talking to Joe about his children,” and we talk about his children, and he kept on talking.

She said, “Eva, I don’t want to be the one to tell you this. Do you know who did the shooting?”

And I said, “No.”

She said, “Jack shot Oswald.”

That was the end of me. Now, I never hung up. I never turned my television off. I remember these people, Jim Holland and his wife, Margo, and a fellow who, these people live next door, Jim Reed—the manager had gone away for the day, but I didn’t know it. As a rule, she would have heard me. I didn’t know for 2 days that she wasn’t there Sunday.

I ran to the door, and I don’t know what happened—this I tell you. In the first place, no one ever told me. I thought they killed my brother too.

All I know is, I was out of my mind. I ran to the door—I don’t usually dress in this—in my mu-mu to meet strangers, but there was such a knock on my door. There were minutes I can’t recall.

I will not tell you any stories. I don’t know exactly, before I knew it, all I know there were photographers there—and your best guess is to ask Pauline what took place, if you get in touch with her.

I go into the bathroom. I want to change, but instead, I had put a robe on. This is what I think I done.

Whoever talked to me, I thought they said they killed Jack too. I don’t know what took place.

Mr. Griffin. Now, Mrs. Grant, what you are telling us now can’t affect your brother’s case in any way.

Mrs. Grant. I am not trying to hide anything.

Mr. Griffin. I realize, but I want to tell you—I realize you want to tell us, and I am going to have to cut you off.

I want to explain to you that what you could tell us from here on, since it is all after the fact, is not material relevant to the shooting of Oswald. So, we are at the end really.

Let me ask you this question: Did you talk to your brother at all about the President’s visit, expected visit to Dallas before President Kennedy arrived?

Mrs. Grant. During that week on Monday—now, it may have been Tuesday, Dallas Morning News had a picture of a desk similar to this. Looked like two doors, and little John-John was right here, and the President was back there, and the President was looking at him, and my brother had said, “This guy don’t act like a President. He is just like a regular father.”

This is what my brother enjoyed.

Mr. Griffin. Did your brother talk to you about going to see the parade?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you if we can do this. You brought a number of items here that you would like us to look at. I don’t want to take them from you without making a record.

Mrs. Grant. I want to sign that paper for you. That is what I want to do.

I think you are being very fair, and I am going to tell you this, there are a lot of things that concern these things, and they are upsetting me because I can’t tell them, and I can’t leave them here. I know your time is limited.

Mr. Griffin. Let me try and reassure you this way. I think I am going to be back in Dallas, probably once more, and I know that you probably would like to talk to us again, and we will make arrangements to talk to you at that time.

Mrs. Grant. Well, if you don’t talk to me, I am going to Washington, and I am going to do some pretty stiff talking.

Mr. Griffin. We want to hear everything you have to say. I wonder if you would want to send to us the particular things that you want to talk to us about, so we can be prepared to handle them perhaps in a relatively orderly fashion?

Mrs. Grant. No, I don’t want it in any mail.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t want to send anything to us?

Mrs. Grant. Not through the mail.

This is the stuff, take it with you.

Mr. Burleson. That is the post office package that Jack picked up.

Mr. Griffin. This is the material you had printed?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Okay.