The testimony of Eva L. Grant was taken at 2 p.m., on July 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Mrs. Grant was accompanied by her attorney, Mr. Phil Burleson. Mr. Ernest Conner was also present.
Mr. Griffin. Let me introduce myself again for the record. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
This is the second appearance, I believe, that Mrs. Grant has made before a staff member of the Commission, and I will not repeat for you the things that are routinely said at the beginning of each one, because I know you have heard them already.
I simply tell you that the primary purpose for coming back here again to talk to you is because we would like to get in a detailed form an orderly chronological formal statement of your activities on November 22, 23, and 24.
When we have completed that, I understand that you have a good many papers that you would like to present to us, and we will be happy to take whatever time is necessary to receive those.
I am hopeful we can get through the statements of your own activities in a fairly quick and orderly fashion.
So, if you will raise your right hand, I will administer the oath to you.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Grant. I do.
Mr. Griffin. Would you state again for the record, your name?
Mrs. Grant. My name is Mrs. Eva L. Grant.
Mr. Griffin. Mrs. Grant, where were you when you heard that President Kennedy had been shot?
Mrs. Grant. I was sitting in my living room.
Mr. Griffin. Was anybody with you at that time?
Mrs. Grant. Not at that time.
Mr. Griffin. How did you get word, over the radio or television?
Mrs. Grant. Pauline Hall called me on the phone, and I believe it was shortly—Pauline Hall called shortly after 12:30, at least I believe it was that, and said, “What are you doing?” And I said, “Nothing.”
She said, “Turn on your television to channel 8,” and I did.
She said, “Do you know that the President has been shot?”
I thought it was a—wait a minute, well, I did remark about the fact that someone is passing it around to make it look bad like you do hear some things.
Mr. Griffin. How long did you continue to watch television?
Mrs. Grant. Well, I had watched it earlier that morning. Wait—I knew he was going to be in town, and I watched him on television on channel 5. I think he was eating breakfast in that Texas Hotel, I believe.
Mr. Griffin. How long did you continue to watch television before you talked with anybody else after Pauline called you?
Mrs. Grant. Well, wait a minute, I had it on, it seems, most all of the time. I think that I went into shock or something, but I had it on, I think. Even if I didn’t have it loud, I had it on. A lot of times I have the picture on and the voice real low.
Mr. Griffin. Now, think back to this particular day after Pauline called you. Did you go about your housework, or did you watch television?
Mrs. Grant. Well, if I remember, I had just been out of the hospital 9 days, and I wasn’t doing anything outside of trying to prepare myself some food if my friends downstairs didn’t bring me something up. Most days she saw that I had a hot biscuit every day. It was something else, whether it was dinner or breakfast, or if she thought I wanted something.
Mr. Griffin. Try to think about what you did.
Mrs. Grant. Now, let me ask you something. Do you want me to go back until the time I got up?
Mr. Griffin. I simply want you to tell me everything after you hung up the telephone with Pauline. Did you sit in front of your television set until you next heard from somebody else, or did you do your housework, or what did you do?
Mrs. Grant. This is what it seems to me. We talked about 5 or 6 minutes, and I kept on talking, and I may be confused about this minute, because I just couldn’t accept it, and it threw me off guard, and she said, “I will call you back.”
But we talked, and it seems to me he (meaning TV) kept talking about different things, and I may be wrong, but it seems to me a Federal man or security man—truthfully, I had not heard anything about the Governor. I don’t remember now.
Mr. Griffin. By “he,” you mean the person on television?
Mrs. Grant. On channel 8. At the time, he wore glasses, it seems, and had black hair.
Mr. Griffin. After Pauline Hall called you, who did you next speak to?
Mrs. Grant. It seems to me she was on three or four times. Wait a minute, Jack had called me, but it seemed he called me after 1 o’clock.
Mr. Griffin. Did you talk after Pauline called?
Mrs. Grant. I talked again to her about three times. Either I called her or she called me. I wanted to see if she had news from another station.
Mr. Griffin. Did all these telephone calls occur before Jack called you?
Mrs. Grant. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Now, did anybody else telephone you before your brother Jack called you?
Mrs. Grant. Now, she may have called me—this girl’s name is Emma Collins, who worked for us as a waitress. I think she came in on weekends. I remember she wasn’t working for a couple of weeks, because I was in the hospital. It seems she may have called me during that afternoon. Whether she called me before Jack, or after, I wouldn’t put my life on that. But almost 1 o’clock I was listening the best I could to channel 8, and I heard this man say distinctly, “The President is dead.” I know I don’t want to even think of that. I don’t know what happened. I kept listening, and I don’t even know what he said. I don’t remember. Security, or the Governor, or I don’t remember anything more. I kept listening, and it seems to me another 3 minutes—even time didn’t mean anything, because, I don’t know, I just don’t know. He said, “It is not official.” So I kept hoping. I threw myself into a fit, and I have never done the crucifixion, and I don’t know which way is proper or correct, but I thought if it would help him, I would feel, well it would just help him. And he kept talking, and it seems to me he said, “The President is at Parkland Hospital.” And Pauline and I talked again, and she said, “I have to hang up.” She wanted to call some friends, or her daughter. And it seems to me I already heard—it might have been 20 minutes later this time, a fellow says, “The President is dead” [starts crying]. And it seems to me Jack called.
Mr. Griffin. Now, Mrs. Grant——
Mrs. Grant. Let me explain something. I have been very sick, and I was taking pills, which I showed Leon Hubert. No; someone came to my house recently, Clemmons—what is the name of that fellow? An FBI man and Hosty.
Mr. Griffin. Hosty?
Mrs. Grant. Hosty came, and I showed him the pills. I think there were 2 dozen originally. And I didn’t start taking them until a few days before. I don’t remember, I think the pills were given to me around the 15th or 16th of the month. I took some, and I had called Dr. Aranoff, and Dr. Bookatz. He was his associate, somebody. After I had taken the pills, I called the nurse, either Bloom or Blum or something, and I told her these pills put me in a trance. I am stiff and I can’t think. And she said cut down to one every 4 hours.
Mr. Griffin. Let me interrupt you a second. I want to keep on the track.
Mrs. Grant. I want to explain, I was taking these pills. I had taken one that morning.
Mr. Griffin. You were taking pills, and that is when Jack called you?
Mrs. Grant. No. I had taken one early in the morning and went back to bed, and I took one about 4 or 5 hours later before Pauline called me.
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack call you before you heard this man on television who said he thought——
Mrs. Grant. Yes; he talked to me earlier in the morning. When I say early in the morning, it could have been 10:30.
Mr. Griffin. Now, after you learned that the President had been shot, and you talked with Pauline Hall, did you then talk with Jack before you heard the man on channel 8, or after you heard the man on channel 8?
Mrs. Grant. No; I heard the man first, because just as the—this is his word—Jack said, “Isn’t that awful?”
Mr. Griffin. Was Jack talking to you about the fact the President had been shot, or did he mention that the President was dead?
Mrs. Grant. I want to tell you something. He assumed that I am listening, because he had spoken to me earlier in the morning, and he said nothing about this ad. Don’t forget the ad. Even before this.
Mr. Griffin. We can go back to that, but I want to——
Mrs. Grant. He assumed and I assumed that each one knew. When he called me, I had an idea. I tell you the truth, I thought he was in the Morning News. I don’t know—I thought he was. Did you ever have the feeling that the party wasn’t at home?
Mr. Griffin. Was there anything you heard over the telephone which indicated he was in the Morning News?
Mrs. Grant. Well, the background. I mean, like I have heard it before, maybe. After all, I heard it many times. I don’t say someone came and talked to him at the Morning News or announced themselves.
Mr. Griffin. You indicated that Jack called you on an earlier occasion that day.
Mrs. Grant. Absolutely.
Mr. Griffin. All right, about what time of the morning was it that he called you?
Mrs. Grant. It seems it could have been 10:30 or 11, or 11:30. It seems to me still before Pauline.
Mr. Griffin. He called you before you knew that the President had been shot?
Mrs. Grant. Yes; 11 a.m.
Mr. Griffin. Now, let me ask you this——
Mrs. Grant. Let me explain this. We have a lot of daily talk about the club, and our conversation was mostly about the club.
Mr. Griffin. The first conversation?
Mrs. Grant. It was about the club.
Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, in the first conversation, did he mention the advertisement that had been run in the Morning News?
Mrs. Grant. He said about three words, “Did you see the ad? Did you see this morning’s paper?” And I said, “Yes.”
Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, in the second conversation, did he mention the advertisement in the Morning News?
Mrs. Grant. The second time—now I am going to tell you when he came over. He was already in a fight.
Mr. Griffin. I am not talking about when he came over. The second time he telephoned you.
Mrs. Grant. Yes; he mentioned the ad.
Mr. Griffin. That was shortly after you heard the man on television say the President was dead?
Mrs. Grant. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Now, you had a telephone conversation which you thought was made from the Morning News?
Mrs. Grant. There was evidence that it was made from there.
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack say anything about the advertisement?
Mrs. Grant. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. What did he say about the advertisement?
Mrs. Grant. You know, I have never met John Newnam personally or over the phone or anything. I was carrying on so, and I said, “You better come here.” He said, “Listen.” I knew I wouldn’t be able to get through to him. His mind was wandering.
Mr. Griffin. I don’t know what you have in mind. I want to know what he said.
Mrs. Grant. He said, “The telephones are ringing like mad.” He said, “People from all over the country are calling up and canceling their ads, big companies,” and this is what he said. And John Newnam did not put it in his statement. Jack went over to this fellow, and this fellow came to the phone, because I heard him say “Hello.” He said, “This is my sister, and she is hysterical.” I heard my brother say that to this guy.
Mr. Griffin. What did you say?
Mrs. Grant. I want to tell you with Jack——
Mr. Griffin. Tell us what you heard Jack say to somebody who apparently was coming over to the phone?
Mrs. Grant. Now, you know, whether he repeated this in the house later on or over the phone, I know this, Jack, knowing my brother, I know he can’t control himself like I can, which you probably know. He said, “What the hell, are you so money hungry?” And the guy had said this to Jack, “Well, you know, Jack, I take orders from my superiors.”
Mr. Griffin. Did you hear the man say that over the telephone?
Mrs. Grant. It seems to me I heard something like that.
Mr. Griffin. But it could have been something Jack said to you in the apartment later on?
Mrs. Grant. It could have been, though I know he said later on, that he was so steamed up.
Mr. Griffin. About how long did that telephone conversation last with Jack?
Mrs. Grant. Well, 10 minutes would be exaggerating.
Mr. Griffin. Might have been as little as 5 minutes?
Mrs. Grant. Could have been. It wasn’t 3 minutes. From 5 to 10 minutes. I don’t know.
Mr. Griffin. Mrs. Grant, how long after that telephone conversation did you then either hear from Jack or see him?
Mrs. Grant. I would say now, it seems to me, this phone call came in about 20 or 25 after 1, because I already heard it, don’t forget. And it seems to me I heard it 10 minutes. Now, see, you can’t depend on my timing that day.
Mr. Griffin. We are not going to. Just let me worry about that.
Mrs. Grant. Okay.
Mr. Griffin. Now, listen, now, I want to find out when it was that you next either heard from Jack or saw him again?
Mrs. Grant. I said over the phone, “You better come here.” And I don’t remember even what my last words on the phone.
Mr. Griffin. Did you receive a telephone call from him before you saw him again?
Mrs. Grant. This time was around 1:30, we assume. You mean from anybody?
Mr. Griffin. No; from Jack now.
Mrs. Grant. I don’t think so. This was the last, because I had said you better come here.
Mr. Griffin. After the telephone from the Morning News, your recollection is that the next thing was that you saw him?
Mrs. Grant. Before 1:30, that was that call, and one other call in the morning. That was before 1:30, and we will say 11 o’clock or 11:10 or a quarter of 11.
Mr. Griffin. Now, after 1:30, when did you next hear from him or see him?
Mrs. Grant. He came over, and it may have been an hour and 15 minutes. That is what it seems to me.
Mr. Griffin. Would it be as much as 2 or 2½ hours?
Mrs. Grant. That was later. Now, he came over, because I said, “You better come here.” And he knew how sick I had been.
Mr. Griffin. When he came over, did he have anything with him?
Mrs. Grant. What are you talking about?
Mr. Griffin. The first time he came to your apartment on Friday afternoon?
Mrs. Grant. He had the newspaper.
Mr. Griffin. Did he have any sandwiches with him at that point?
Mrs. Grant. No.
Mr. Griffin. Now, between the time that he showed up, going backward, and the time that he called you from the Morning News, had he telephoned you?
Mrs. Grant. Not from that last phone call.
Mr. Griffin. Do you have any recollection of his telephoning you from the Carousel Club on Friday?
Mrs. Grant. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Now, did he telephone you from the Carousel Club between the time he called you from the Morning News and the time he saw you at your house?
Mrs. Grant. Mr. Griffin, if you don’t let me tell my story my way—that is what this whole—I had told him he better come. I was sick. I was so sick. I had a major operation, and I felt I was going to fall apart. I don’t know what was happening to me over there. I just can’t explain it. I was operated—let me tell you—on November the 7th, so you figure, and the other doctors know about what happened.
He came over and he didn’t stay long. It seems to me he stayed 5 minutes or 8 minutes or 10 minutes. He did not stay a half-hour. He said, “What do you want?” I said, “Will you get something from the delicatessen?” And he said, “I have to go back to the club.” He said. “Well, did you read it?” And I said, “Yes.” He left.
Now, I assume he called me from the Carousel, and I actually assume it was about an hour later, maybe, or even an hour and a half. So, I said, “When are you coming?” And he said, “Well, I will go over to Phil’s Delicatessen.” And I said, “Where are you?” And he said, “I am downtown.” And I said, “Listen, I would rather you went to the Ritz,” which is down the street. They have better food. They have fresher and better variety. He said, “I am coming right over.” His “right over” came, I would say it was, after 4 o’clock. Maybe a quarter of 5. Maybe it was 5. Maybe it was even 5:15.
Mr. Griffin. Could have been as late as 5:30 or 6?
Mrs. Grant. It wasn’t after 5:30.
Mr. Griffin. What makes you think this?
Mrs. Grant. Well, we were waiting for the 6 o’clock news, and it seems to me that there wasn’t enough news on there. But as a rule, as little as I stay home to listen, I know there is a 6 o’clock news. By that time I heard already a policeman was shot, and he probably heard it where he was. And I remember watching television, and that afternoon it seems to me this man was Curry, said we got the right man. He had three draft cards and a bunch of stuff. He defected. That is what it seems to me in my mind. If I could get the tape. And I was still tuned to channel 8.
Jack came in with enough food——
Mr. Griffin. If I understand you correctly, when he came to your house at 2:30, at that time you mentioned to him to get some food?
Mrs. Grant. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Then he went down to the club and called you from the club, and again you mentioned to him to get the food?
Mrs. Grant. Because he called me to see how I was.
Mr. Griffin. Had you had lunch that day?
Mrs. Grant. Well, you can’t call it—because my breakfast is coffee and cookies or something light. The neighbor could have brought me up a sweet roll. Her name is Betty Goodman. She has done things like that, and has been very kind.
Mr. Griffin. Was anybody else at your apartment when Jack came back the next time?
Mrs. Grant. Unless it was Betty. I am sure she came when I started screaming over the telephone, “The President is dead.”
Mr. Griffin. Did you call her on the telephone to tell her?
Mrs. Grant. No; Pauline Hall called her and said I am having a fit or something.
Mr. Griffin. Then did Mrs. Goodman come up to your apartment?
Mrs. Grant. Yes; she was up much earlier. She came up, I think it was, 10 o’clock. That is how I got the paper, because I don’t get the paper.
Mr. Griffin. After Pauline Hall called and said you were having a fit, did she come up again?
Mrs. Grant. Yes; she stayed, and well, she thinks I am very emotional or something wrong. She is of a different temperament, and she said, “Do you think you will be all right?” Now, after that, my brother came up.
Mr. Griffin. But Mrs. Goodman came up to your apartment after you learned that the President had died?
Mrs. Grant. Sometime; I would say, very shortly.
Mr. Griffin. How long did she remain?
Mrs. Grant. Not too long. I think 5 minutes. Five minutes or 7 minutes. You know, not long.
Mr. Griffin. How long after Mrs. Goodman, did Jack arrive?
Mrs. Grant. This is the first time you are talking about? It could have been an hour. It could have been 40 minutes. It wasn’t 3 hours.
Mr. Griffin. Could it have been 2 hours?
Mrs. Grant. I think it was a terrible day. How could anyone—I mean I can’t remember.
Mr. Griffin. If you can’t remember?
Mrs. Grant. Listen; that was not a normal day. First of all, I wasn’t watching the clock. I wasn’t watching for anything.
Mr. Griffin. When Jack came back to your apartment the second time, what did he have with him?
Mrs. Grant. Enough groceries for 20 people.
Mr. Griffin. What did he have? How many grocery bags did he have?
Mrs. Grant. He went down to the car to get another load of it. You figure it out. Six big bottles of pop, or whatever you call it. A pound of corned beef. A pound of tongue. He had four meats, a pound of each.
Mr. Griffin. Did he have——
Mrs. Grant. A pound of lox, which is smoked salmon, and some smoked fish, and he bought onions and oranges and a variety of six different kinds of cakes.
Mr. Griffin. Were they things that he would have gotten at the Ritz Delicatessen?
Mrs. Grant. All but the vegetables. He bought vegetables and fruit.
Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you where he got those?
Mrs. Grant. I didn’t ask him.
Mr. Griffin. Did you have a grocery store that you regularly shopped at?
Mrs. Grant. He liked the Safeway.
Mr. Griffin. Was there a Safeway somewhere near the Carousel or between the Carousel and your place?
Mrs. Grant. There is one on Lemmon Avenue not too far from Oak Lawn.
Mr. Griffin. What was the name of that store; do you know?
Mrs. Grant. Well, I live in that neighborhood. I don’t think he ever lived in that neighborhood. I don’t know where he could have gotten it. I knew where the cakes and things come from because this particular place makes or handles several.
Mr. Griffin. Where did the cakes come from?
Mrs. Grant. They have little biscuits, and their rye bread is entirely different than any place in town.
Mr. Griffin. Where did the cakes come from?
Mrs. Grant. From the Ritz Delicatessen. They carry stuff like that to go.
Mr. Griffin. Was there anything that you noticed that he brought back that you could identify with any other store?
Mrs. Grant. He had a newspaper, the Times Herald. Had “The President is dead.”
Mr. Griffin. How long did he remain in your apartment on that occasion?
Mrs. Grant. I know it was around 7:15 or 7:20 when he left.
Mr. Griffin. About how long?
Mrs. Grant. I would say a good 2 hours. Maybe 2½ hours.
Mr. Griffin. Did he receive any telephone calls?
Mrs. Grant. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, let’s try to think about how you are going to organize this, because I want to take it chronologically.
Mrs. Grant. I am sorry if I am confusing you, because that day wasn’t exactly a good day for me.
Mr. Griffin. Before you start to talk, try to think a little bit about what you are going to say. He got some telephone calls and he made some?
Mrs. Grant. That’s correct.
Mr. Griffin. Now, try to think about who he called first, or who he heard from first, and how things progressed.
Mrs. Grant. He wasn’t at the house 10 minutes or 15 minutes or 20 minutes at the top, and he was on the phone. I think it was Andy. I am going to tell you this.
Mr. Griffin. Why do you think it was him?
Mrs. Grant. I didn’t answer the phone. He wanted the scrambled eggs and lox.
Mr. Griffin. Who is he?
Mrs. Grant. My brother Jack. And I heard the conversation.
Mr. Griffin. What did you hear?
Mrs. Grant. “Didn’t you get a number from him?” “Yes; I got it.” And he said, “Call me back if you find the number.”
May I say something?
Mr. Griffin. Yes; go ahead.
Mrs. Grant. I bawled my brother out for buying so much food. And he said, “That is not much.” And I know it was at least enough, not exaggerating, to feed 12 people, but he didn’t know what he was doing then. I said, “I bet you spent $25.”
And he said, “No; only $22.”
Well, it was no sense of making discussion. I said, “Now, you are going to take some of this stuff for you and George. Don’t leave it around here.” And I said I didn’t feel like eating, and he said, “I don’t feel like eating either.” And I said, “You better eat,” because he hadn’t had anything since early in the morning. And I said, “What do you want?” And he said “Some scrambled eggs.”
Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you where he ate breakfast that morning?
Mrs. Grant. No; haven’t the least idea. Andy called back, and he ran. He was practically in the bathroom. I have a very small apartment. If you want to take a diagram—you can practically carry your phone in there and close the door and still hear. And he ran to the phone. He knew I was busy. I was moving around very slow, not in my normal speed or stride. If it was only 4 feet, I wasn’t trying—I did better than a lot of other people, but he took a number down and he called this number and said, “Jack Ruby.” I heard something, but I don’t know. I mean, he said, “Yes, I am closing tonight.” I don’t know what the other guy said. But Jack had told me this after he hung up. Now, this may have been the first conversation or the second. Seems to me he talked to him twice. I mean, I am just assuming this.
Jack said, “You know the Cabana and the Century Room are closing, but the rest of the clubs aren’t closing.” Or something to that effect that other clubs weren’t closing. Whichever ones they were, I don’t remember that he mentioned. But he mentioned the two that were closing. I don’t know what went on in regard to all the clubs and things, but Jack says this, he wants to know, and he was sitting there, and that is when I could see there was something wrong, but I couldn’t detect what was wrong.
He became really a very broken man, but you see, I figure everybody looked and acted like he did, and I not being out, I don’t know what other people outside of Pauline or the other people that called. He said, “Don wants me to call him and let him know if I am going to be open.” And this is almost the exact words he said, as much as I remember. And he said, “Listen, we are broke anyway, so I will be a broken millionaire. I am going to close for 3 days.” I heard him go back to the phone. By then I was in the bedroom for Kleenex or something. He went back and dialed. I don’t know who he talked to. And he says, well, this is what I heard him tell, “Don’t tell the Weinsteins that I am closing, Don.” He said, “Yes, I want to be closed.” And he seemed to be, when he come out, we talked a little bit about our family and things. I said, “Call the printing room.” Of course, I am not familiar, though I shouldn’t say this, I have heard it a million times—I am not familiar with the newspaper although I have been there many times with him. I said, “You better cancel your ad.” He said, “Well, I am going to cancel the ad for 3 days.”
Truthfully, he tried to cancel the ad, but they said they held the space for him. I don’t know which paper it was. He said, “This is Jack Ruby.” The other guy knew him. Oh, no, he mentioned the composing room. He said composing room. He said, “This is Jack Ruby. Do me a favor. Listen, use my space and say, closed Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.” Then he waited.
Mr. Griffin. Let me interrupt you here, and not because—you are doing very well.
Mrs. Grant. I am trying to.
Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you this: You made the statement that Jack initially called simply to cancel the space?
Mrs. Grant. No. Andy called our house. Listen to me. Andy told him Don called. Jack bawled him out why he didn’t have the number, and he says, “I will get the number.” But we have about five phones in the place of business. Andy must have went to the other part of the club to get the number, and he called back.
Mr. Griffin. I got that. What I am referring to is after Don Safran called him, and you and he talked and you said, “Jack, you better call the printing room,” and then he made the telephone call. And I think you indicated that Jack said, “I want to cancel my ad.” That Jack’s original thought was to cancel the ad, not to use the space.
Mrs. Grant. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. What do you remember was said that indicated this to you that makes you remember?
Mrs. Grant. It seems to me, and I was sitting right next to him on the couch, and the way my place is, there was a little white table, and there is a telephone there, and it seems to me he said, “I would like to cancel,” and the guy says, “Well,”——
Mr. Griffin. Of course, you couldn’t hear the man on the other end?
Mrs. Grant. No; I assumed the ad was already paid for.
Mr. Griffin. Go ahead. What else happened in that telephone call?
Mrs. Grant. As I said, “You better call the printing room,” or, “Did you call the printing room?” Or something. Jack said he knew the department better than I did. At least he was thinking a little better. He said, “You mean the composing room. The fellow there knows me real well.” And Jack said, “Tom,” something, and he said, “Well, put in closed Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.” But I want to explain something here. He made two calls like that. And from what Jack told me later on, he said, well, the first edition, it will be out, like Friday night, the space and wording is in the paper.
Mr. Griffin. What newspaper did he call from your house that afternoon?
Mrs. Grant. He called both of them.
Mr. Griffin. And after he made those telephone calls, what did he do?
Mrs. Grant. Well, he tried to eat. By now, the eggs were cool. He took a spoonful or fork full and went back to the phone. And he took this phone into the bedroom, and it seems to me he called Alice Nichols, because, you know, that is the girl he was engaged to.
Mr. Griffin. Let me interrupt. Do you have a recollection of his making a telephone call to Alice Nichols from your house?
Mrs. Grant. It seems to me it was that day or the next day, but I think it was that day.
Mr. Griffin. Let me—I am going to keep this in mind—let me ask you some other questions before we get to Alice Nichols. When he brought the sandwiches and so forth——
Mrs. Grant. It wasn’t sandwiches.
Mr. Griffin. All right, he didn’t have any made up sandwiches from the Ritz Delicatessen?
Mrs. Grant. No. When he brings stuff for me, he don’t usually do it that way, or for us.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember his making any telephone calls to inquire about the synagogue?
Mrs. Grant. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Did he make that telephone call before or after he called about canceling the ads?
Mrs. Grant. It seems to me the call to the synagogue was later.
Mr. Griffin. Was it before or after he talked to Alice Nichols?
Mrs. Grant. Seems to me that it was later.
Mr. Griffin. Which was later, the call to the synagogue?
Mrs. Grant. It seems to me the call to the synagogue was later.
Mr. Griffin. The next thing you remember his doing is talking to Alice Nichols?
Mrs. Grant. Let me explain this, Mr. Griffin. Did you ever feel—this girl and him, there had been a very fine relationship, respectable, but I have noticed in the past, and I think I have heard this name for 15 years, and in this time they were engaged—that during tragic days or something very exhilarating, he called Alice Nichols. And when my brother talked to her, it is sort of a secret. He took the phone into the bedroom, and I had all reason to believe, and believe me I did not hear anything mentioned like “Alice,” or “Dear,” or “Honey.” I had a feeling he was talking to Alice Nichols.
Mr. Griffin. What made you feel that?
Mrs. Grant. I couldn’t help it. There was something about when he talked to her.
Mr. Griffin. Did you hear anything that was said in that conversation?
Mrs. Grant. I don’t know whether this is in the back of my mind or knowing him, or whether I actually heard him saying something to her, but I have all reason to believe that was the first call, because he jumped up from his eating, I told you, for each call, and as it was, he didn’t eat. He ate less than a third than he normally eats. I don’t know if I am imagining this. I mean this is a terrible thing to say, but there was something in his voice, or I may have heard, at least it is in the back of my mind, that he talked to her. I may have even heard her name, but I don’t want to say. Later on that same night we talked about her, and this is what bothers me. Whether it is in the back of my mind he told me that, or did I hear him say, “Alice, it is Jack.”
Mr. Griffin. Did you hear him make some telephone calls about going to the synagogue?
Mrs. Grant. I sure did.
Mr. Griffin. Tell us about that. Let me stop just to get the place and time. About how long after he made the telephone calls concerning the cancellation of the ad did you hear a call about the synagogue?
Mrs. Grant. Maybe an hour or 45 minutes. He walked up and back a couple of times. He took the phone in the bedroom. He made another call in there, and I want to tell you what I heard him say. This I heard him, “I am sorry I am calling you so late.” I didn’t hear too much of their other conversation, but he said, “Say hello to Jean.”
Mr. Griffin. Who is Jean?
Mrs. Grant. This girl is named Jean Hamblen. She is married to Cecil Hamblen. They have one little child. Now, this could have been around 6:30. He had already been to the table three or four times. I remember Andy called twice. I remember Don—oh, wait a minute, I told you about Don. He called twice, didn’t he?
Mr. Griffin. Yes.
Mrs. Grant. Okay, I know he called the composing room. Wait a minute, when Andy called, and Andy called back, and he called Don, now it seems to me that he already talked to Alice Nichols. I mean it may have been before Andy called, and he wasn’t in the house too long.
Mr. Griffin. What makes you think that he had already talked to Alice Nichols?
Mrs. Grant. Well, I think he used the phone.
Mr. Griffin. Or had he mentioned to you that he had already talked to her earlier in the day?
Mrs. Grant. It seems to me I heard that too, but that would be nothing to him. I know it would sound crazy. My brother has called me when I am not sick five times a day. I mean, there are times, it is not an everyday occurrence, but there has been times, but it seems to me he said he had called her.
Mr. Griffin. How long did he remain?
Mrs. Grant. I am going to be honest about this. Alice is a very cold person. A very fine person, but I could never get to talk to her as even to this day, and I have known her for years.
I never sort of pushed conversation like, “How is she, what is she doing.” Yet I knew he had a great liking for her.
Mr. Griffin. You indicated earlier that he had been engaged to her. Was that actually a formal engagement?
Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes. He gave her a ring.
Mr. Griffin. Now, after he talked with Cecil Hamblen, did he make any other phone calls, that you remember?
Mrs. Grant. Then it seems he called Dr. Jacobson, Coleman Jacobson, who attended the same synagogue.
Mr. Griffin. Let me see if I can help you with this. Do you recall Jack saying in the telephone call to the doctor—well, do you recall after Jack made the telephone call to Dr. Jacobson that Jack actually called the synagogue?
Mrs. Grant. He either did one or the other, but he did call both. You understand the whole deal, I got to tell you this.
Mr. Griffin. All right.
Mrs. Grant. Dr. Coleman Jacobson and Stanley Kaufman are supposed to be his friends and they used to bawl Jack out that he didn’t come Friday night, which was the thing to do.
My brother, when he called Coleman Jacobson, and he often apologized, and I heard this mentioned, and I am not a big synagogue goer, because Friday and Saturday night is the time we do business.
I know it is not right, but I don’t know whether Coleman Jacobson told him to call the synagogue or he called the synagogue, but I did hear, I know he made both calls.
Mr. Griffin. About how much time elapsed?
Mrs. Grant. Between the two calls, it could have been an hour.
Mr. Griffin. How much time elapsed from the time he called Cecil Hamblen until he left the house?
Mrs. Grant. Not more than an hour, but maybe 45 minutes.
Mr. Griffin. All right, was this telephone call to Cecil Hamblen the last one he made?
Mrs. Grant. No. I think it was before the other two calls. I mean, I think that.
Mr. Griffin. In the period shortly before he left your house, what was he doing?
Mrs. Grant. He was sitting in my golden chair with his head in his hand, and we were talking. I said, “I never thought in my lifetime I would ever hear of a President being assassinated.” I thought when they do those things, when McKinley was shot and Garfield—I said, barbarians were running around.
Mr. Griffin. Were you doing most of the talking, or was Jack?
Mrs. Grant. Yes. He was quiet. He sat in the chair and he says, “Really, he was crazy,” and between that time he went in the bathroom and threw up. It was after he ate what he considered eating.
Mr. Griffin. He didn’t have very much to eat?
Mrs. Grant. No. Because he asked me for scrambled eggs. I made him three eggs. He wanted the eggs.
I said, “I will make you four, and if you don’t eat it, I will eat it.”
I know those eggs, he ate one-third and just very little of anything that was there. So the amount of food he normally eats, he is a pretty good eater even with his diet.
Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you he called Eileen?
Mrs. Grant. Yes, it seems to me he told me that.
Mr. Griffin. What did he say about that?
Mrs. Grant. Now, let me explain something. You see, you are jumping the gun. When he was sitting on this chair and crying, I had made this remark—don’t forget, I saw all this business on television already.
This was now after 6. Maybe even a quarter of 7. He left shortly after 7, so it can’t be after 7:20 or 7:25, so we can straighten that out.
I said, “That lousy Commie. Don’t worry, the Commie, we will get him.”
I also said this. If I say the word “commie” low, does it go in there when I say it?
I would like to see the television deal in order to get something straightened out. It seems to me Curry said he had three draft cards and he defected to Russia.
This was all in the late afternoon, and he kept repeating it. I figured out in my intelligence that this guy was sent to do it, so I said this.
I could never conceive of anybody in his right mind who would want this President hurt. Only a guy just of his caliber. [Lousy Commies—L. H. Oswald.]
Mr. Griffin. What did Jack say?
Mrs. Grant. He didn’t say nothing. I heard him say, “What a creep.” Whether it was Friday or Saturday, that is the exact term. [It was Friday.]
He never used the word “rat” or “skunk.” He doesn’t like my vocabulary. I come out and call his friends s.o.b., but you want the word, and he don’t like them. That don’t have to go on the record.
Did I get off the track? I am sorry, Mr. Griffin.
Mr. Griffin. Well, when did you next see him again after he left the house Friday night?
Mrs. Grant. The next day he came.
Mr. Griffin. Did he come back to your house at all Friday night?
Mrs. Grant. No. Wait a minute, you are asking me—I know what the question is. Now, I am sorry, sir, you will have to forgive me. My mind isn’t that good any more.
When he was leaving, he looked pretty bad. This I remember. I can’t explain it to you. He looked too broken, a broken man already. He did make the remark, he said, “I never felt so bad in my life, even when Ma or Pa died.”
So I said, “Well, Pa was an old man. He was almost 89 years. Anyone lives that long, you are lucky, such as the life he lived.”
I can’t put the things in there, the things that I said.
Mr. Griffin. That is all right.
Mrs. Grant. I said, “I don’t want anyone to get killed.” I said, “If it was Hoover, now, he is a man 85 years old, and I read a confidential report out of some magazine, he has the same thing that my father had, uremia. I bet he would almost or wish someone would shoot him.” I know how my father suffered.
Don’t misunderstand me, let him live and be well. This is not a thought on my part. It is a thought that this poor man who is suffering so much.
Mr. Griffin. Did you tell this to your brother?
Mrs. Grant. Yes. I think we were discussing—we were very close in saying things.
Mr. Griffin. This was before he went to the synagogue?
Mrs. Grant. During the time he was eating and the phone calls and all those little conversations that go up and back.
Mr. Griffin. Did you see him again that night after he left?
Mrs. Grant. No. When he was leaving, he already threw up, and I was very worried about him getting killed in traffic. I said, “Don’t go to the synagogue.” And he said, “Yes, I got to go.” He said, “I will never feel right.”
Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you when he left the house he was going home first?
Mrs. Grant. This is what—he was too dirty. He never wears clothes, the same clothes all day, if he has to go out in the evening or go into the club, and he wasn’t dressed right.
It seems to me his tie was loose, or whatever it was. I don’t even remember. I think he wore a grey suit.
Mr. Griffin. After he left?
Mrs. Grant. He got home.
Mr. Griffin. You didn’t hear from him again, did you?
Mrs. Grant. Yes, I did.
Mr. Griffin. Did he call you when he got home?
Mrs. Grant. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. He called you from his house? How long after he left?
Mrs. Grant. About an hour.
Mr. Griffin. What did he say?
Mrs. Grant. That is when he says to me, “I told Eileen you were going to call her. I told Eileen you were going to call her.”
Mr. Griffin. When did he say that to Eileen?
Mrs. Grant. How do I know? He told Eileen in Chicago that I was going to call her that night.
Mr. Griffin. Did you call Eileen?
Mrs. Grant. It seems to me I did. You want to know, my records would show it better than I can.
Mr. Griffin. You know you talked with Eileen?
Mrs. Grant. Yes, but I don’t remember when I talked to her that night, Saturday night, but I am almost certain it was that night.
And I want to tell you what happened in the conversation. I said, “You know Jack wanted me to call you. I guess he called you. Such a tragedy. And how do you feel?”
And she said, “I want to send you a robe.”
And I said, “I don’t want nothing. I got flowers to bury me, and I would like to be buried away. I am just sick about this thing.”
And we were talking, only I didn’t speak so hectic as I am now. I was pretty low and sick physically. I said, “I am going to call over at Mary’s.” That is Mary and Ann Hyman, and Mary lives at 1044 Loyola, Chicago.
She said, “When you call over there, tell Hyman (my older brother) he left his glasses here.”
So I said, “You are in Chicago, why don’t you call him.” Kidding her.
And she said, “No.”
I think I called that night. You look and see. It seems to me I called.
Mr. Griffin. Did you leave the apartment at all that night?
Mrs. Grant. Never.
Mr. Griffin. Now, somebody made a telephone call early Saturday morning from the Vegas Club.
Mrs. Grant. That wasn’t right. That is a confusion. I billed it to the Vegas Club telephone, unless one of my help went there, which I doubt. But I wanted to call my son’s father-in-law, which I straightened out with the FBI.
Mr. Griffin. That was a call made to a family named Hirsch?
Mrs. Grant. I don’t think I made it Friday. I think Saturday. [Made on Saturday.]
Mr. Griffin. The record indicates it was made somewhere around 1:00 or 12:45 Saturday morning, and the records indicate it was from the Vegas Club.
Mrs. Grant. I would like to doubt that very much on the words. Let me explain something. What about the other two calls? Are they Friday? Do you have it there, to Chicago? [The phone company has written a letter to me stating that the call was made from LA 6-6258 at 10:45 p.m. (CST) on Saturday.]
Mr. Griffin. Someone made a call late Friday night to Hyman’s number in Chicago.
Mrs. Grant. Wait a minute.
Mr. Griffin. Let me tell you what the record shows. The record shows that Eileen called you around 9 o’clock.
Mrs. Grant. She called me?
Mr. Griffin. That’s right.
Mrs. Grant. Maybe that is right. See, I don’t know.
Mr. Griffin. The record shows that Eileen called you.
Mrs. Grant. Oh, maybe that is the—wait a minute, I thought Jack wanted me to call her. But that wasn’t it, was it?
Mr. Griffin. I don’t know. The record shows that.
Mrs. Grant. I know I talked to her. You want to know the truth. I know I talked to them once or twice a month, so I don’t know.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember calling Hyman?
Mrs. Grant. It seems to me I remember calling that number over there.
Mr. Griffin. You don’t remember exactly when you called?
Mrs. Grant. It seems to me it was Friday.
Mr. Griffin. Well, the records indicate that a call was made to Hyman’s house from the Vegas Club on Friday night. Did you go out of the house?
Mrs. Grant. Never left that house; never. So, I hope I don’t see my son alive. I did not leave Friday or Saturday out of that building. Not until Sunday when I was sneaking over to what I thought was the city hall. Let me explain this.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember calling the Hirschs?
Mrs. Grant. Yes; but I think it was Saturday. Please listen to me. It was Saturday, November 23. I had called another number where my son lives. It is in my book. And calling my son’s number, maybe it was at 10:30 at night, Dallas time, and nobody answered. This was Saturday night. I decided to call Cecil and Viril Hirsch. That is the mother and father of my daughter-in-law.
And I said, “It is Eva.” And we talked, and I told him the town is falling apart over this, we are just sick. And I said, “Where are the kids?” I figured maybe Cecil is not answering the phone. And she said, “They are here.” And I said, “How come you are having an affair like this?”
And she said, “For three or four different weekends they were supposed to have a temple affair and are installing new officers. It started in September, but it is a new community, and all the mothers and fathers have young infants, and every other week, if they postponed it, a child had measles or chickenpox, and they said that this particular Saturday night, November 23, let’s see if everyone can’t come. We will install them whether they are there or not.”
And I said, “You tell Ronnie he is not to take the kids out of bed.” Not that my kid listens to me, but that is me talking. “And to stay there overnight, and maybe I will call them tomorrow or something.” Anyway, I said, “Don’t let them take the kids out.” And she said, “I told him not to.” And she said he was going to drive up at 12 o’clock sharp.
And I said, “Where does he get this traveling 40 miles and another 40 miles from my son’s mother-in-law’s home back to where they live.”
Mr. Griffin. Let me move ahead now. It is a Saturday morning. Did you see your brother Saturday morning, November 23?
Mrs. Grant. I don’t remember.
Mr. Griffin. How about Saturday afternoon, did you see him Saturday afternoon?
Mrs. Grant. Yes; I did. I spent every bit of 3½ or 4 hours, not 3½ hours, and not much more than 4 hours, with him.
Mr. Griffin. What time did you get up Saturday morning, as best you recall?
Mrs. Grant. Well, it would be easiest to say that I didn’t sleep at all.
Mr. Griffin. Let me just ask you this. What time do you think your brother came to your house?
Mrs. Grant. I would say 20 minutes before, and I think it would be the closest I could ever get, 20 to 4 in the afternoon, Saturday, November 23, and it could have been 5 to 4.
Mr. Griffin. Had you contacted him?
Mrs. Grant. Between the time that he left Friday night and the time he showed up Saturday afternoon, I think one time.
Mr. Griffin. When do you think he called you?
Mrs. Grant. I don’t know. It seems to me, I may be wrong, he didn’t call me early in the morning. It seems to me he called me—now, it wasn’t before noon—this I will swear, at least I can’t remember. He called me enough after 4, after 8 o’clock to make up for all the calls he didn’t. One call. I think he was in the club, and I would say after 12 o’clock, but I don’t know when.
I don’t know, I am just assuming that many times. I never know where he is at. I don’t question about where he is at. It don’t make any difference, unless he is in the neighborhood, like Friday, I might have questioned him when he said he was going to Phil’s. I said, “Where are you,” and he said, “I am in the club.”
Mr. Griffin. I am going to get on for a second here. Do you remember calling a man named John Henry Branch on Saturday, November 23?
Mrs. Grant. Me?
Mr. Griffin. Yes. Do you know who Branch is?
Mrs. Grant. Yes; I know him. Gee, I don’t know. I have called him different times, but I don’t remember talking to him.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember trying to make some arrangements with Branch about getting a pianoplayer?
Mrs. Grant. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. When did you do that?
Mrs. Grant. I don’t know, I was having trouble right along. [I believe it was Friday, November 15.]
Mr. Griffin. Was that after you went in the hospital, or before you were in the hospital?
Mrs. Grant. Well, Joe left the first week in November. I have called Henry Branch, I think it was, before my operation, now that you brought it back to me. I don’t remember calling that Friday or Saturday, unless I wanted to show some people, because I had a pianoplayer. Leonard Wood was working for me. He was the pianoplayer.
Mr. Griffin. But he quit you fairly soon?
Mrs. Grant. But he was working then, because I want to tell you what happened. He had called the house. Now listen closely. Leonard Wood called the house. You brought that up, and I have all reasons to believe it was Friday night. And he said, “How do you feel, Mrs. Grant?”
You know one thing about the colored people, since I have been sick, most of them were very nice, even if they hated me. I know if I got mad at them, like Joe, we still love him. I don’t know what it is, he had called, and I have reasons to believe it was Friday night.
Now, listen to this. He said, “How do you feel?” Now, I may have called him and told him not to come into work, or Jack called, or someone had called him.
Mr. Griffin. Who called the personnel at the Vegas Club to tell them not to come to work? Did you make any calls to your personnel at the Vegas Club?
Mrs. Grant. Pauline was calling me all the time, and Emma Collins, and I am glad you brought it up. I can’t think of every damn thing. Leo Torti is our helper or manager. He does many things, and we owe him some money. It wasn’t we—Ralph Paul. Anyway, it seems to me, the best of my knowledge, he had all of their phone numbers, but it seems to me I, myself, may have called Leonard sometime late that afternoon, I don’t know.
Mr. Griffin. Well, Mrs. Grant, just let——
Mrs. Grant. And Leonard Wood wanted some money, and I think it was Friday night.
Mr. Griffin. I don’t want the details.
Mrs. Grant. Wait a minute, this is very important.
Mr. Griffin. All right.
Mrs. Grant. He wanted some money, so I think, it seems to me I said—Jack was in the house—“You will tell the guys at the garage next door to the Carousel Club, you give him your name, and he will put $10 in an envelope.” Now, Jack made this call from the house. This is Friday night.
There was a guy there, Larry Crafard, and Andy is supposed to be there. Jack says, “You stay there until 9 o’clock, and then you put up a sign ‘closed tonight’.”
Mr. Griffin. Who did he say this to?
Mrs. Grant. I don’t know.
Mr. Griffin. That would have been Saturday night that he said this?
Mrs. Grant. It could be.
Mr. Griffin. Okay, was that the same night that Leonard Wood called?
Mrs. Grant. No. It seems to me Leonard called Friday. I may be wrong.
Mr. Griffin. Leonard called and wanted some money?
Mrs. Grant. He was already informed we were not going to be open.
Mr. Griffin. But Leonard called and wanted some money?
Mrs. Grant. Yes. And Jack—I was on the phone, this much I remember.
Mr. Griffin. You talked to Leonard?
Mrs. Grant. Yes. It seems to me he talked to me.
Mr. Griffin. Did you call the Nichols Garage?
Mrs. Grant. No. I don’t even know the number.
Mr. Griffin. What garage were you saying he could get some money in an envelope?
Mrs. Grant. Next door.
Mr. Griffin. Which garage is that? Next door to the Carousel Club?
Mrs. Grant. Next door to the Carousel Club.
Mr. Griffin. Did you call that garage?
Mrs. Grant. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack?