Mr. Griffin. I am going to show you what I have marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 5.

Take a look at that man in that picture and tell me to what extent does he look like the Jack Rubenstein that you knew?

Mr. Fehrenbach. If this is Jack Rubenstein here he is much older now than when I knew him, much older.

Mr. Griffin. The man here in this picture, does he look substantially different from the man that you remember as Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes, he does. There is a vague familiarness about his face, but I can’t—I wouldn’t want to say definitely that was the same Jack Rubenstein I know unless he had changed considerably with the years.

Mr. Griffin. I want to hand you what I have marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 7. This is another photograph. Would you look at the man in that picture and tell me to what extent that man resembles the man that you recall as Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, it would be very hard to say because I never remember the features, like I say, it does look similar to the Jack Rubenstein that I knew only he is much older than then plus the fact he has got a hat on. I never remember seeing him with a hat, but—and somewhat heavier, much heavier, in fact than what he used to be.

Mr. Griffin. Well——

Mr. Fehrenbach. But I don’t know the certain way he is holding his mouth or is there some way that reminds me of the same one that I knew. He had a funny way of holding his mouth, kind of a—I don’t know just exactly how you would call it—a prissy look about his mouth, and that there picture there, the last one you showed me he is holding his mouth very nearly the way that he used to hold it.

Mr. Griffin. Well, on the various occasions that you saw this man how much time would you say that you spent with him?

Mr. Fehrenbach. The second time he came there when we had lunch, I would say I spent approximately 2 hours with him that day. We was at lunch. I remember this because I was somewhat afraid that Sam was going to give me a good bawling out for being late because we were over at the restaurant for about an hour and a half, and the first time I met him, I would say it could have been 2 hours because we was there in the office, that is when they were showing me all those tricks and things, and then the third time not over 15, 20 seconds.

Mr. Griffin. So a total of maybe 4 hours altogether?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And did you know on the occasions that you had seen Seymour Jasson about how many times would you say that you had been with him?

Mr. Fehrenbach. With Seymour, I would say maybe 6 hours out of the 12 out of the many times he was there. We didn’t spend too much time together. I think one reason why I remember the Jack Rubenstein, why this name sticks with me, and I think maybe I ought to explain this, when I worked for Sam I was young, 16, 17, and I was always given the understanding that I was a young fellow. Anybody my superior that I was to say “mister” to, I was never allowed to call anybody by the first name.

Jack Rubenstein was one of them who treated me like I was somebody. He treated me very decent and when I said Mr. Rubenstein he informed me that his name was Jack and that is the way I was supposed to address him and he was the only one of all of them that I can remember whoever told me this. In other words, he treated me very, very nicely. And also I was quite impressed when he asked me to go to dinner with him.

Mr. Griffin. This time that you went to dinner with him; what did you talk about?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Oh, we mostly talked about the jewelry, if I remember, and, of course, at that time also something came up about this Mr. Levinson and it was my impression that he knew this Mr. Levinson, and he was talking about, he said, when I got there he said, why if I didn’t have a place to go, a hotel or anything to let him know and he could find me a real cheap apartment and a real nice one.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk about any political topics?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; it was never mentioned that I know of. The Communist Party was never mentioned in any way.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear Jack Rubenstein talk about political topics?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Not to me personally, and I couldn’t, I wouldn’t want to say for sure that he ever did but I know there was one time when him and Seymour, Lawson Jaffe, and there was one or two others there, and they was in an argument about something, they was arguing about something about what Roosevelt was doing.

Anyway, they referred to him as everything but a President of the United States.

Mr. Griffin. What was Jack Rubenstein’s attitude about it?

Mr. Fehrenbach. He agreed with them.

Mr. Griffin. He was hostile to President Roosevelt?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; he was—well, I don’t know if it was Mr. Roosevelt or not but it was the way the U.S. Government was doing in the war. What they was doing.

Mr. Griffin. How soon—was this on the first meeting or the second meeting?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I am not sure. I know there were several of them there on the second meeting, the second meeting I had with him when we went to dinner. When we came back, I believe it could have been on the second meeting because this is the meeting that there were so many of them came in the shop there and they was all arguing and talking about it and then they commenced to jump on Sam Jaffe and Sam carried, had a large map on the wall, and he used to keep pins in it. All the moves, every move the Russians made and every move the United States made. He had a red pin for the Russians and I don’t know, a green or blue for the United States, and then I think he had another, the black pins he was using for the German Army where they were at, and every time there was news he would always jump up and go ahead and change his pins so he would know where they was at. And they came in and looked at his pins and they was saying he had it all wrong, and so forth, and so on, and they was going to change it and Sam wouldn’t let them.

This was actually, if I remember correctly, this is what really brought on the argument because they got to arguing about the United States wasn’t doing what they were supposed to do, and that they was lagging behind, and if they had a President of the United States that knew what he was doing that they could get this thing over with, go in there and completely wipe Germany out and take over.

Mr. Griffin. They were criticizing Roosevelt because they didn’t think he knew how effectively to conduct the war, is that correct?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I think this was mainly the drift of it. This is mainly what they was arguing about. But after they went into the other office while they was talking in there there were certainly things that came up about how the administration was being run, and there was, I remember something about some law that they had passed or a resolution or something, that they was all very concerned about, that they was all quite upset about but I can’t recall what it was they was talking about now.

It was something I don’t know now, what it was something Congress passed or what it was, and I don’t know if Jack Rubenstein entered into that conversation or not.

It seemed like I heard his voice once or twice, then like I say I am not sure. There were so many in there I couldn’t know who was talking.

Mr. Griffin. Was Mr. Shuster ever associated with Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Not that I know of. I mean he could have known him and he could have been up there sometime when he was there, I don’t know. There was usually so many in and out that I never really—I couldn’t really say.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see Mr. Jasser talk with Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Phil Jasser; yes, many times.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see Mr. Standt talk with Mr. Rubenstein?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Morton Standt usually came up. Bill Jasser, after Seymour and them would come in from Chicago, Lawson Jaffe was the first one to come up or usually he would come up with them.

Mr. Griffin. I am asking you, Jack Rubenstein was only there on one occasion that you recall when they had a meeting?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. All right. And my question to you is, do you ever recall that Mr. Jasser talked with Rubenstein?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes. Phil Jasser used to come up.

Mr. Griffin. But did he talk with Rubenstein on this one occasion?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I don’t know as he actually came up and talked to Jack Rubenstein personally but he would come up and him and Seymour and Rubenstein and Sam Jaffe were always in the same office and Lawson Jaffe.

Mr. Griffin. You say all would be, as if it happened a number of times but there was only one occasion when you mentioned that Rubenstein came in and you had any idea that there was a meeting afterward or there might have been a meeting afterward.

Mr. Fehrenbach. What I mean is when they would come up there to the office shortly after they would get there the rest of them would come in on various occasions. Usually when they came in they would spend anywhere from 1 to maybe 3 or 4 hours or maybe all afternoon in Sam’s office.

Mr. Griffin. But, you see, the first time you tell me that Rubenstein came he was only there for a short while, a couple of minutes, and the next time that he came you think he was around for a couple of hours, and the next time——

Mr. Fehrenbach. The next time he came in he was there quite awhile in the afternoon. This was when so many of them were in.

Mr. Griffin. The next time he came in he spent the 2 hours with you?

Mr. Fehrenbach. The second time is when he spent the 2 hours, hour and a half with me when we went out to dinner.

Mr. Griffin. The second time. I see. The first time he came how much time did he spend?

Mr. Fehrenbach. The first time I can’t recall exactly how long he was there that first time. All I remember is I couldn’t actually say how long but there was several different ones came in.

Mr. Griffin. Well, now——

Mr. Fehrenbach. So he could have been there 15, 20 minutes, a half hour, maybe an hour, 2 hours.

Mr. Griffin. Were there other people who visited Sam Jaffe regularly from out of town?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No. The only ones I actually recall out of town that used to come up there was just his son-in-law, Seymour.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t know anybody else who visited him from out of town?

Mr. Fehrenbach. There were others who came in but I can’t recall any of their names and they never came regularly, I mean never long enough for me to be introduced or anything like that that I could actually place.

Mr. Griffin. Were there any salesmen who called on Sam Jaffe?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Oh, yes; we had salesmen coming in all the time.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember any of their names?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I don’t recall any of their names. I mean, this was strictly business and Sam took care of the ordering and everything.

Mr. Griffin. Were there any customers who came in regularly?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Outside of the jewelry store we were doing work for; no.

Mr. Griffin. Didn’t have any business off the street?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Not that I recall of. If he did, I mean it was something that I would know very little about, and as a matter of fact, he wouldn’t let me know because he wouldn’t want the other jewelry stores to know.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have anything else that you haven’t told us or we haven’t covered already that you think is pertinent to this matter?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No. I think this is everything that I can remember to the best of my ability and knowledge right now. I know since I first told the FBI there in Medford about this that I thought it could possibly be the same man, the wife and I have talked it over on many occasions, and I have racked my brains trying to think of anything else that would be pertinent to it but I——

Mr. Griffin. You used the phrase that it possibly be the same man?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes. I told the FBI in Medford that I could not definitely swear it was the same man but his facial features and things leads me to believe that it could possibly be. And I didn’t really draw that conclusion until, and it is like I told them, I couldn’t actually draw that conclusion until after I had heard his name was Jack Rubenstein and he was from Chicago and then when I seen the picture of him, and it did very definitely look quite a bit like the Jack Rubenstein I knew, only somewhat older, because well I don’t know, the pictures I have seen of him since he shot this Oswald, he has always been rather sloppily dressed and when I knew him he was always very well dressed.

Mr. Griffin. Well, I certainly appreciate your—go ahead.

Mr. Fehrenbach. Of course, he is a lot paunchier now than he was.

Mr. Griffin. It is a number of years, 18 years have passed. I want to thank you for coming here all the way from Oregon, and helping us with this. We appreciate any cooperation we can get in this matter. I don’t have any more questions, and if you don’t have any more, why, we can recess, adjourn.