Mr. Griffin. You were in Muncie——

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Back in the period from 1948 to 1952, isn’t that right?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; 1950, 1950, and 1951 was back in the service at Green Cove Springs and then I came back and I was there for the rest of 1951, and I believe it was in 1952 when we moved to Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. Griffin. All of the late forties you were in Muncie?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And for a while in 1952 you were in Muncie?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now, you were aware of what information was being developed by the Communist Party in Muncie, at that time, weren’t you?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I don’t understand.

Mr. Griffin. During this period in the late forties and the early fifties when Senator McCarthy and other people in the Congress were very interested in Communist activities throughout the country, I take it you were paying attention to what information they were developing about Muncie, if any?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well now, for about a year and a half, 2 years directly, let’s see, that would have been latter part of 1948, 1949, and 1950, until I was called back in the service. I was working with Warner Gear and I wasn’t actually in contact with them so I didn’t know what they were doing at that time but I know nothing actually developed out of the list so I assume they knew who they were, and that I just felt that I had done what I should have done, and so if they wanted to talk to me they could have and I never brought it up.

Mr. Griffin. To your knowledge, has the House Un-American Activities Committee or any other committee of the Congress conducted an investigation into Communist activities in Muncie?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Not to my knowledge; no.

Mr. Griffin. Now, during this period when the Congress was very interested in this, were you attentive to whether or not they were investigating Muncie?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes. I often wondered why nothing ever came out of what they was doing there in Muncie.

Mr. Griffin. I am wondering why then at that point you didn’t make known to somebody the fact that you had information which led you to believe that there was a Communist Party group in Muncie?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Because I had already turned the list in and I felt I had already informed them that they were there.

Mr. Griffin. I see.

Mr. Fehrenbach. You see this is what I didn’t know until just recently, that Merv Collins never turned the list over to the FBI.

Mr. Griffin. How did you find that out?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Mr. Mullaney said there was no record of that list ever being turned in.

Mr. Griffin. I see.

Mr. Fehrenbach. Now then, I will also tell you this now. At the time my wife and I was talking about it the other day, shortly after I turned this list in, we used to have—my wife and I lived out in the country, we had our first child at that time, and there would be somebody, sometimes there was one, sometimes there was two or three men in a car, used to park out in front of our house and they would sit out there sometimes as high as an hour to maybe 3 or 4 hours, and very seldom under an hour, and we had called, my wife mentioned this the other day when I told her that the list had never been turned in, and she says, “Well, do you reckon he could have been a member?” And I said I didn’t know.

Mr. Griffin. This is Collins?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes. It never occurred to me, her own uncle, and I said it never occurred to me. She says, “You know, we used to call him and tell him these fellows were following you home and sitting out in front at night and he used to say it was just a paperboy, not to worry about it.”

Mr. Griffin. Excuse me, who were the people who were following you home? I didn’t get that.

Mr. Fehrenbach. I had no idea, I never recognized any of them.

Mr. Griffin. How long would this continue?

Mr. Fehrenbach. It went on, I would say, for a period of, I would say 5, maybe 6 months that this went on.

Mr. Griffin. When was this approximately?

Mr. Fehrenbach. This was in 1947 or 1948, let’s see, the oldest boy was born, it was and he was born because we had the baby and he was just a baby at that time. He was born in June of 1947, so it would have been from June on up until about Christmastime.

Mr. Griffin. What led you to believe that they were following you?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, it was quite obvious. When I left town the car would leave right behind me, follow me all the way out into the country, down the same roads and everything and when I pulled in the drive the same car would go on past the house, turn around and come back and then park.

Mr. Griffin. How close to your house would it park?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, right in front of it usually.

Mr. Griffin. What was across the street?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Just, there was a barn lot across the street.

Mr. Griffin. A barn lot?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; just nothing but a field across the street.

Mr. Griffin. I see. Did you ever get a look at these people?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; every time I would—I used to get quite provoked at them sitting out there and there would be several occasions when I would go out of the house and go toward the car and ask them what they were doing, but every time I started out the driveway they would leave. So, I actually never got a good look at any of them.

Mr. Griffin. Why do you think these people were following you?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I have no idea, but the only thing that I can figure is that they—I had been asked, I had been asked by Lawson Jaffe, I had been asked by the Pazols, and I don’t know, there were several different ones, Phil Jasser, all of them had asked me at one time if I had seen any papers lying up in this office or in this union hall when I went up there, and, of course, I denied that. I didn’t see anything when I went up there. All I did was went up and got the chair.

“Sam can tell you,” I said, “when I came down I didn’t have anything but the chair, that was all I could see, that was all I was sent up there for.”

Then Sam talked to me on two or three different times and asked me, he said, “If you did take the list I am not going to tell anybody, but did you actually take the list or see it up there?” And I said, “No,” I didn’t even tell him.

Mr. Griffin. What did they indicate that list was about?

Mr. Fehrenbach. They didn’t. They would never tell me. All they said there were two or three sheets of paper, said, “Didn’t you see them laying there?” And I said, “No,” I never did see them. But they would never tell me what it was all about.

Mr. Griffin. Who was it besides Sam Jaffe, was it Lawson Jaffe who asked you about the list?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Lawson, Phil Jasser, Herb and Morton Pazol had asked me. So in other words, they all knew I had been up there that morning to get this chair, and that apparently they all draw their own conclusions that I was the one who had to pick up that list. And this went on, I know, for a long time after I had picked that list up.

Mr. Griffin. Was there anything about that list which would indicate that they might have all been members of some other group that wasn’t a Communist group? For example, that they could all have been members of the same synagogue, it could have been a church affiliated group?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No, there was nothing on the paper to indicate what it was about, or what they were members of. To my knowledge there wasn’t, unless it would have been on one of the other pages. Like, I say, I didn’t go through them.

Mr. Griffin. But Sam Jaffe inquired about this list?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes, Sam wanted to know, he said they are going to get a little unhappy with you because they think you have taken those papers from up there in the hall, and I said, “Well, Sam, I didn’t see them when I was up there.”

Mr. Griffin. Well now, don’t you think that—let me ask you this. Did Sam Jaffe indicate that he had anything to do with that list?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No. He was, I think, more or less trying to find out if I had the list and if I would give these papers back to him he would see they would get back to them and they would leave me alone. I think this was the only reason why Sam wanted the list or these papers, as they kept referring to them. They never referred to them as a list, but said papers.

Mr. Griffin. Were there any other papers up there beside the list of names?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; I didn’t see them.

Mr. Griffin. Go ahead, you were going to say something.

Mr. Fehrenbach. Actually, I feel if I had had them as rough as some of them were getting about it and as nasty as they were getting about it, I would have given them back to Sam. But I had turned them over to Merv Collins and I couldn’t give them back.

Mr. Griffin. You never told anybody about it?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No, because they were getting a little nasty about it, and Lawson Jaffe came to me and said. “If I find out you took those papers I am going to cut your blooming throat,” those were his exact words and they were getting to be quite nasty about it.

Mr. Griffin. Were all the people who were listed on that list, were they all in the jewelry business that you knew?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No, they was in the clothing business, in the jewelry business and Seymour Jasson, Sam’s other son-in-law, was in show business of some kind in Chicago.

Mr. Griffin. Seymour was in show business?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes. He had, I would say, it was—anyway they knew an awful lot of entertainers.

Mr. Griffin. What can you say about him, can you describe Seymour?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Oh, he was roughly around 5′10″, 5′11″, and dark complexion, very handsome fellow, black wavy hair, curly hair. I guess you could call it, I believe it was halfway between curly and wavy.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know a son-in-law of Sam Jaffe who had red hair?

Mr. Fehrenbach. The only thing I can remember about Max Pritcher was he was short and fat but I don’t remember whether he had black hair or red hair. But it seems to me there was one that used to come up there with red hair but now who he was, I don’t know. It looked odd to me because I knew he was definitely Jewish, and he had red hair, and—but I can’t remember who he was or Rosalie or Rosalyn, I can’t honestly say I ever met her husband, in fact I don’t even remember her.

Mr. Griffin. The only two you remember are Marion and Charlotte?

Mr. Griffin. How often did you meet Seymour?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Seymour used to come down, Seymour and Charlotte used to come down, quite often, oh, I would say in a period of once every couple or 3 months they would come down.

Mr. Griffin. So you might have seen him a dozen times?

Mr. Fehrenbach. At least a dozen times.

Mr. Griffin. Now, on the occasions that they came from Chicago to Muncie, did they ever bring any friends with them?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes. There was, usually when they came down there was, anywhere from, Seymour and Charlotte, and then this Jack Rubenstein had come with them on three occasions that I know of.

Whether he had ever come any more than that I am not sure.

Then there was always—whether anybody else come with them or not I don’t know. Then, of course, there was this here blonde girl that this Jack Rubenstein, whether it was his wife or girl friend, who she was, I don’t know.

Now, those four used to be together all the time.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall any other people?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I don’t recall any of the others that came down with them. This Seymour and this Jack Rubenstein it was my impression they were very good friends. They were both in show business or some kind of business there pertaining to entertainment.

Mr. Griffin. But there were other people who came down with Seymour?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, whether they actually came down with them or not I don’t know but I know usually at one time or another during the time they would all seem to be gathering up there in the shop.

Mr. Griffin. And you don’t remember the names of any of the other people?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No, because I was never actually introduced to any of them.

Mr. Griffin. Were you introduced to Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes, I was introduced to Jack Rubenstein, the first time I was introduced to him, I can’t remember, I was working in the shop and they were in the office working, and Sam called me in there and introduced me, and somehow he asked me something about cards but I can’t remember how it was that it came up.

Anyway, an ordinary playing deck of cards, and this Jack Rubenstein was quite adept at playing cards, you could shuffle the deck and hand it to him and he could still give you almost any card he wanted.

There were other things they had done. He and this blonde girl worked together. He would take a piece of paper and write your names, different dates, when you were born, stuff like that, and fold it up in four or five squares and then I would give it to Jack, and he would hold it in his hands and then this other girl would tell me exactly what I put on the paper.

How they done it I don’t know. This was——

Mr. Griffin. You indicated that Jack Rubenstein was in show business?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What led you to believe that?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Because he had told me—now this was in, I believe on his second time that he was down there, there was some talk about Sam sending me to Chicago to work with a man there, a Mr. Levinson. I believe the man’s name was, who was a diamond setter, and this was all that he done was diamond setting and Sam wanted me to go up and work with him for a few months to learn more about diamond setting.

Anyway, we were in the middle of the plans about the second time that this Jack Rubenstein came in there and when Jack came in, he acted very friendly and wanted to know how I was and this and that, and then we in the course of the conversation, why Sam said something about my coming to Chicago maybe and working for Mr. Levinson there, and Jack said, “Fine” he said, “when you come,” he said, “I want you to come around to my place, and anything you want is on the house.”

Mr. Griffin. Indicating that he ran some sort of an entertainment place?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Right. It was either a nightclub or tavern or something, I don’t know. I never actually knew that.

Mr. Griffin. I see.

Mr. Fehrenbach. But I know Sam told me—he said, “well now,” he said “there you go; you would have to sit in the back room because you are not 21,” but he said “they have got peep holes and you can still see the show.”

I took it for granted it was a nightclub and apparently they had some kind of a show they put on there.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have any—what do you remember most about this fellow whom you called Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. Fehrenbach. The most I remember about him was he was a very nice looking fellow. He was very jolly, and he was what I would call a real character because he was always cutting up, laughing, always jolly, very happy-go-lucky more or less, so to speak.

And as I made the comment the other day, I made it, I think on several occasions, I thought he was nuts because he didn’t marry that blonde girl, because she was just about, they was two of a kind.

She was jolly, and happy-go-lucky, and I know, I was always under the impression that she was very much in love with Jack because she just absolutely idolized him. She would never get too far way from his side and never take her eyes off him.

Mr. Griffin. You refer to this man as Jack Rubenstein. How certain are you that his name was Jack?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Everybody referred to him as Jack. But now I will say this; there is one thing that I don’t understand and this is one reason why after this Jack Ruby shot Oswald, I didn’t connect him because I had never heard him referred to as Jack Ruby.

Mr. Griffin. How sure are you that this man you saw; his name was Rubenstein?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Being introduced to him on two or three occasions and it was always as Jack Rubenstein.

Mr. Griffin. Could it have been Rosenstein?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No, it could not have been Rosenstein. The Rosenstein they talked about, like I said, I never met the man but I heard them talking about was in Cincinnati, Ohio, or Dayton, Ohio, one or the other and he was a very close associate to Lawson Jaffe, and it is my impression that Rosenstein was a lawyer because I know Lawson Jaffe is the one who talked about him mostly and apparently this—he took care of legal matters or something for Lawson.

Mr. Griffin. When do you believe was the first time that you ever saw the man you call Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. Fehrenbach. The first time that I remember or that I met him, the time I was introduced to him and showed the card tricks and things was around, I believe it would have had to have been in 1943.

I went to work for Sam in 1942 and I had worked for him quite some time. Maybe he had been there before, I don’t know but I don’t remember him being there.

At least I had never been introduced to him.

Mr. Griffin. What part of 1943?

Mr. Fehrenbach. It must have been in the summertime, it would have had to have been in the summertime, I believe.

Mr. Griffin. How do you place it then?

Mr. Fehrenbach. By the way they were dressed because I remember when they first introduced me he looked so out of place because he had a very nice looking suit. We had—he had one of the loudest sports shirts I had ever seen in my life and I remember when he took his coat off it was a short-sleeved shirt and if I remember correctly it was a real bright red, and I know it was a very loud sport shirt and it just looked completely out of place with the suit he had on.

And that is why, was the only reason why I connect it with being in the summertime. I don’t recall them having topcoats or anything.

Mr. Griffin. Is what makes you remember this fellow; his clothing, his card tricks, his girl friend, or what?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, I think just his; like I said he was a real character, and he was always very, very friendly. Offered to take me out to lunch whenever he was there, and in fact I did go to lunch with him one time, in fact, we went, now this is what Max Pritcher was doing, Max had the restaurant on Main Street, and I was just going out to lunch on the second time that Jack was there, and we had been up there talking and this is the time we was talking that, about me going to Chicago, and Jack said, “Fine,” he said, “you can come up to my place, for an evening, you can come up there and really have a good time.”

And I was——

Mr. Griffin. Excuse me, was this before you went into the service or after?

Mr. Fehrenbach. This was before I went into the service.

Mr. Griffin. I see.

So, this was either in the summer of 1943 or later?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Summer of 1943, the first time I was introduced to him and when we went out to lunch it was early in 1944 and it was wintertime at that time because I know we walked from Jaffe’s to the restaurant. And we had to put on our topcoats because it was about two or three blocks away.

Mr. Griffin. I want to try to focus a little bit on the time here. What possibility is there that it could have been before the summer of 1943. Could it have been in the summer of 1942 that you saw him?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No. I don’t believe so, because, for the simple reason I say this is because the second time I remember when I went out to dinner with him it was in the wintertime and I know it hadn’t been too long that he had been there because if it had been too long I wouldn’t have remembered him but I did remember him when he came in, so I don’t believe it could have been over 6 or 7 months, and I, thinking back, it just doesn’t seem like it would have been too long. In fact, I would say it more likely would have been late summer in 1943.

Mr. Griffin. Now the first time you talked with the FBI about this it was your recollection that it was in the spring of 1943. Do you recall that? At least this is what they have reported.

Mr. Fehrenbach. As I told them, I can’t remember, at the time I called them, I just couldn’t remember. I couldn’t go back 18 years ago or 20 years ago and actually put my finger on any definite time or place, and——

Mr. Griffin. You think your recollection now as a result of this conversation we have been having is better than it was—— Mr. Fehrenbach. I think so. Not only that but I have had a lot of time to think about this, and I am just almost certain, I mean in our conversation here that it must have been in the summer.

Mr. Griffin. Of which year?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Of 1943.

Mr. Griffin. Now, you were going to tell me, I think when I interrupted you, that the second time that you met him you and he went to a restaurant?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Right. Now the second time—I don’t know if this blonde girl was with him the second time or not, it seems to me she was, but she wasn’t with him when him and Seymour came up the shop or Charlotte. Yes, Charlotte was with him or came in later. Anyway——

Mr. Griffin. Let me interrupt you now; are you sure on this second occasion that he came to Muncie with Charlotte and Seymour?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; he did come with them.

Mr. Griffin. How do you know that?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Because they had been talking about the trip and they had had some trouble or something, I can’t remember what it was, anyway they was talking about what had happened, and then also they was talking about when they was going to leave.

Mr. Griffin. Where were they going, someplace else from Muncie?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; they was going back to Chicago and how long they were intending to stay; I don’t know. It seems to me I would say it was 3 or 4 days that I seen them around there. But anyway, Jack Rubenstein and I went on to the restaurant, and we had lunch over there, and Jack paid for everything, and then just as we was leaving, why then Charlotte and Seymour came in, and then I went back to the shop and where Jack went I don’t know. He went someplace else.

Mr. Griffin. How did Jack happen to come to the shop without Seymour and Charlotte?

Mr. Fehrenbach. He just walked in. To my opinion, he knew Sam quite well, I mean apparently they had been, had known each other for quite some time. So there was talk; I had heard them talking about different things that had happened before, and wanted to know how each other were and were referring to different ones, different members that they knew, or different members of each family that they knew.

Mr. Griffin. Was there anything in Jack Rubenstein’s conversation that indicated to you that he might have been in the jewelry business?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No.

Mr. Griffin. Was there any indication that he may have been in any business outside of show business or running a bar?

Mr. Fehrenbach. None that I know of. At least not around me there was never anything said, because to me he was always talking about his establishment, that is what he called it, his establishment, and said he had two of the prettiest girls working for him that could be found in Illinois or Indiana, and he was quite proud of them, and I think in my opinion also he was quite a woman’s man. I don’t know, just the way he talked about women is where I suppose I draw that conclusion. And he was something of, like I say, of a real dandy himself. I mean he was always very well dressed, always very neat, but, like I say, that second time was the time, in fact, I wasn’t even sure I wanted to go down the street with him with that bright red shirt; no, that was the first time, with that bright red shirt. It really amazed me that a man could be so well dressed and still have on such a gaudy shirt and I think, this is my first recollection of him when I met him, because anyway he acted—cutting up all the time and joking, and I more or less thought to myself, what kind of a nut is this guy. But now the first time he dressed quite gaudy, the second time he was very well dressed, and the last time I saw him which was in, it was either in 1946 or 1947, I don’t recall which, there was after I came back from the service, him and Seymour and Charlotte came back up there, and this time the blonde wasn’t with him, I don’t think, at least I don’t recall seeing her now, and he was very cool. He wasn’t the same Jack Rubenstein that I had known before.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have any explanation for that?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I have none. I mean he was decent but he wasn’t just his jocular self, always joking and cutting up.

Mr. Griffin. When approximately was this when you saw him, 1946 or 1947?

Mr. Fehrenbach. It was 1946 or 1947. It was after I had came back from the service and had gone to work for Sam.

Mr. Griffin. When did you get out of the service?

Mr. Fehrenbach. In 1946.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember when it was?

Mr. Fehrenbach. June 21 when I was discharged. I was off about 2 weeks and went back to work for Sam. Now one thing that I hadn’t remembered or hadn’t said anything to the boys there in Medford was there was, and I didn’t remember it until the other day when they brought it up, actually, I don’t place any connection on it, he called me and asked me if there was ever any other employees of Sam’s. Before I went in the service I was the only employee. When I came back from the service, Sam had expanded, he had opened up, I guess I should put this on here.

Mr. Griffin. That is all right.

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, he had opened up.

Mr. Griffin. Did he open up something behind you?

Mr. Fehrenbach. A jewelry store; he was doing retail jewelry.

Mr. Griffin. You are indicating on Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Was this new store he opened up adjacent, directly connected with it?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Would you draw it?

Mr. Fehrenbach. His jewelry store came out here, this part was exactly the same.

Mr. Griffin. Would you draw on Exhibit No. 1 what he opened up in 1946 or 1947 and then indicate by some sort of language on the diagram that this was a new addition and the date that it was opened?

Mr. Fehrenbach. The date it was opened I don’t know, but when I returned in 1946 he had it.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Why don’t you say new addition by time you returned from service.

Mr. Fehrenbach. Do you want me to put retail jewelry store?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; why don’t you do that?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Because he was wholesale before that.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now go ahead with what you were going to say about that.

Mr. Fehrenbach. After I came back from the service he had this retail jewelry store and there was a lady working for him by the name of Marie Shaw. She took care of the books for him and done some selling, I believe. Sam, in the meantime, had taken another boy in, was teaching him jewelry work, and his name was Bill Miller.

Now Bill didn’t stay there very long, approximately, I think, if I remember correctly, I think Bill was only there 4 or 5 months, and then he quit, and I suppose this is one reason, I couldn’t even remember the man’s name the other day when Mr. Mullaney called me, I couldn’t remember the man’s last name. I remember it was Bill. But I had to—in fact, Mr. Mullaney called my wife and she told him what his name was, Bill Miller.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Fehrenbach. So I didn’t place any connection on him and that was the only other employee that I knew of Sam having.

Mr. Griffin. Was either Shaw or Miller working there at the time you found this list?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; Mary Shaw was.

Mr. Griffin. Was she aware that you had found the list?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No.

Mr. Griffin. Was she aware that Sam Jaffe was trying to get the list from you?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I don’t believe so. I don’t recall if Miss Shaw was ever around when they had questioned me at all; I can’t remember she was ever around at anytime. She could have possibly been.

Mr. Griffin. Was she employed there when Jack—did Jack Rubenstein ever visit the store when she was there?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; I am quite sure that she was there on the last time that I seen him. She would have had to be there—I am sure she was—because this was after I came back from the service and I don’t recall Mary ever taking a vacation or anything. She was always there, maybe once or twice I remember she was off sick but I am quite sure she was there. However, I don’t recall—yes; that is before, I was going to say the card tricks, I don’t recall her being there but then, of course, she wasn’t because he didn’t have the jewelry store then but the last time he was there. I am quite sure Mary would have had to have been there unless she was off sick or something. And now that was the time, like I say, that Jack was rather distant. He came in and he spoke, and that was about the length of it.

Mr. Griffin. Did he come in with anybody at that time?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; he came in with Seymour and Charlotte at that time.

Mr. Griffin. How long was this before or after you found the list?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, it was after I found the list but I can’t remember. It could have been before, too, I just could not say for sure whether it was before or after I found the list.

Mr. Griffin. Was it a matter of a couple of days or a couple of weeks before or after?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I would say roughly it would be right around very nearly the same time.

Mr. Griffin. Well——

Mr. Fehrenbach. It could have been after. I just can’t say for sure.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t have any recollection, I take it, or do you, that Jack Rubenstein, that you saw Jack Rubenstein on the same day that the meeting took place on which you found this list?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; I don’t think that it was on the same day. I do remember when I seen Jack’s name on that list, it struck me as rather odd because, well not actually odd either, I don’t know, I just, even though that Jack came down with Seymour and he knew all the rest of them, I couldn’t place him. He was so much different than what the rest of them were, and I just never connected him with being a member of the party. But now that I think about it, by seeing his name on there it must have been after I turned that list in that I seen him again.

Mr. Griffin. How long after would be your best estimate. I don’t want you to guess, I want you to try to give an informed estimate if you can and if you can’t make any informed estimate then we should indicate it.

Mr. Fehrenbach. I just can’t remember. I just have no idea. Because it was just, like I say, he walked in, he came into the jewelry store that time, he came back through the office, poked his head around the corner and said, “Sam, how are you?” He said, “Hello, Bill,” everybody else started calling me George, but he called me Bill, he said, “Hello, Bill.” Seymour and Charlotte come in and Charlotte come over and spoke to me for a while and Seymour, this Jack Rubenstein, and Sam went into the other office, and Charlotte and I were talking for a little while.

Mr. Griffin. I want to hand you a photograph which I have marked George William Fehrenbach, July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 2. Would you look at that and tell me if you recognize either of the people in that photograph?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No. He is not familiar but she is. He is a little familiar but I couldn’t place the name on either one of them.

Mr. Griffin. Could she be the blond girl that you recall being with Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. Fehrenbach. If she is she is a lot older now than she was then.

Mr. Griffin. Let me tell you that picture was taken in the 1940—in the 1940’s rather?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; it couldn’t have been because this other girl was, unless that is a very poor photograph, the other girl was quite slender.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever meet anyone by the name of Benjamin Kanter?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; that is not familiar.

Mr. Griffin. I want to hand you another photograph which I have marked George William Fehrenbach Deposition, July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 3, and tell me if you recognize anyone in that picture?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Now these both are very familiar but I can’t actually place their names.

Mr. Griffin. Does that man——

Mr. Fehrenbach. He is very familiar.

Mr. Griffin. Does that man look like the man you remember as Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No.

Mr. Griffin. Does that man look like anybody you recall having seen with Seymour and Charlotte Jasson?

Mr. Fehrenbach. To the best of my knowledge, as I say, I can’t place the name. He is very familiar but it seems to me he has been up there, it is not anybody that lived around Muncie that I remember of. But apparently it must have been one who came from Chicago. He is quite familiar. But she is not too familiar though, and yet it seems like I have seen her sometime, somewhere. But he is quite familiar but I can’t put a name on him. But it is definitely not the one I remember as Jack Rubenstein.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember a person by the name of Harold Sugerman?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember a man by the name of Irwin Berkstead?

Mr. Fehrenbach. The name is familiar but I can’t associate it. I can’t remember ever meeting the man. It seems the name, like I say, it seems like I heard of it but I couldn’t say where.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever have any other difficulties with Sam Jaffe other than in connection with the list?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No. I think possibly Sam was a little unhappy with me when I quit because I had quit and tried to start a shop of my own. Several of the jewelry stores around had asked me if I wouldn’t start a shop up and do their work for them because they were a little unhappy with Sam because he had started a retail store up and he was a competitor and Sam always seemed like he was always very friendly but it seemed he was not the same Mr. Jaffe I had worked with before.

Mr. Griffin. Did he ever accuse you of anything other than taking that list?

Mr. Fehrenbach. And he never accused me of taking that either.

Mr. Griffin. Did he ever accuse you of taking a bracelet or any jewelry?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No.

Mr. Griffin. After you left Mr. Jaffe, did you continue to work in Muncie?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; I went to work in a shop of my own and I was with Herb and Morton Pazol in their store in the basement.

Mr. Griffin. You worked with the Pazols?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I was working for myself but I was doing their work free for the rental of the space.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you rent the space in the Pazol store?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I would say approximately about 6 months. It didn’t last very long because Herb and Morton and I just couldn’t get along.

Mr. Griffin. What was the basis of your disagreement?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, they were too demanding. They thought I should do all of their work first and then do the other store’s work. I don’t know, I think Morton and I was the one that more or less couldn’t see eye-to-eye on many things. It seemed like it would take very little for us to get into an argument. One thing, I think Morton and I got into a row was he kept bringing all these here magazines and this was this newspaper that he kept bringing down there and he would leave them in my shop.

Mr. Griffin. What kind of magazines?

Mr. Fehrenbach. The magazines I can’t remember. I know I used to throw them in the waste basket when they were in there but this one newspaper, the Daily Worker or something to that effect, and I was always complaining about him coming down there and he would always come down and nibble around my bench, moving things around on me, whether he knew anything about a jeweler or not, this is just something we cannot tolerate because we know where everything is laying on our bench, and Morton had a very bad habit of coming down and moving things and then he would always bring these papers down and we was always constantly in it so I just got to the place where I couldn’t get along with him, so I just quit.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you move to after that?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, when I quit there I went to work for Warner Gear.

Mr. Griffin. Did you work for them as a jeweler?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; that was Borg-Warner, as a machine operator.

Mr. Griffin. I see. Did you believe at the time you were working for Borg-Warner Gear or Warner Gear, that Morton Pazol was a Communist?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, I would assume he was. He was before.

Mr. Griffin. Well now this newspaper that he was receiving, was that some sort of, did it appear to be a Communist newspaper?

Mr. Fehrenbach. It appeared to me because like I say I used to throw all the magazines in the waste basket and I threw a couple of the papers away and he gave me the devil. And I wondered what was so important, and I read one of them and here again this newspaper, it seemed to me like it was the Daily Worker and it was blasting the U.S. Government for this and for that and was running the President and everything down in the Government.

Mr. Griffin. When you say he was leaving these, he wasn’t leaving it for anybody to pick up? Was he leaving it for the trash collector?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; he was leaving it for me because no outside people could come into my shop but I believe he was leaving them for me because he believed I would read them. They never said anything to me, after I came back from the service Herb or Morton never said anything to me about the party in any way, shape, or form. In fact, if I remember correctly, Herb and Morton treated me about as nice as any of them in Muncie, Ind., after I came back from the service. In fact, they were much friendlier than the rest of them were.

Mr. Griffin. The rest of them meaning?

Mr. Fehrenbach. The rest of them, the other people, acquaintances that I knew through Sam before I went into the service. Then not only that, after I turned that list in, I think this is one reason why Morton and I couldn’t get along because it seemed like even Herb it didn’t take too much before they would find some reason, any reason, to start complaining, and——

Mr. Griffin. But after you took the list from them, they still rented out space in their store to you in the building?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; they did. Like I say that blew over, and then on, I don’t know, I could say that list was forgotten about as far as I was concerned, I mean nothing ever had been said about it for sometime and Herb and Morton continued to be, they were a little cool for a while but then they become very friendly again, in fact, Herb and Morton actually lent me enough money to start this shop. I had some money of my own and they put up the rest of it, and then I can’t recall what happened or how it happened or anything about it. It was something about that list came up again after I had been with Pazols for about 3 or 4 months, it was shortly after I was there, and then, well, I know Lawson came down here, and he told me that he frankly thought I was a no-good bum because I had quit Sam and went to work for competitors and two or three stores had started sending me work that they used to send to Sam, and he said not only that, he says, “I happen to know for a fact you were the one who took that list or those papers at the meeting.” He said “papers” and he didn’t say “list.” Herb and Morton were both there and it was right after that that they become very cool. Herb stayed very social but Morton, like I said, it didn’t take very much for him to get started again.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall that bingo games were held up in that third floor?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; they used to have bingo games up there, too.

Mr. Griffin. Did the Jaffes attend these bingo games?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I don’t believe so.

Mr. Griffin. Did the Pazols attend?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; not that I know of.

Mr. Griffin. Would you have any knowledge, would you know if they did?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I believe there would have been something said about it if they had.

Mr. Griffin. When did the bingo games usually start?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I couldn’t say because I never went to any of them myself but I would say somewhere around 7 o’clock, because it seems to me we had worked late a few evenings and I knew when they was going on up there, but after it did get started we usually quit because there was so much noise you couldn’t hear anything.

Mr. Griffin. Was the union occupying that third floor after you got back from the service?

Mr. Fehrenbach. All I remember they said it was a union hall, but I don’t remember ever a union meeting being up there and I don’t remember what union it was.

Mr. Griffin. It was really just a big hall. It wasn’t offices for any union or anything?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; it was just actually one great big hall.

Mr. Griffin. I see. Do you know, do you recall, that they made some arrests up there on the third floor in connection with some of those bingo games?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; unless it would have been done late at night and I just didn’t hear anything about it. I don’t recall anything being done up there. I recall, it seems to me, to the best of my knowledge, the best I can remember, I think they finally stopped it because the ministerial alliance there was going to complain about it. But whether there was ever any arrest made up there oh not, I don’t believe so.

Mr. Griffin. Did Sam Jaffe ever tell you that he had an aunt and uncle who were killed by the Communist in Poland?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t remember anything like that?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I don’t remember Sam ever talking about Poland. The only thing he ever talked to me about was the Russian people. He never told me how they lived or anything. I had always got the impression that he could have possibly at one time been an officer in the Russian Army.

Mr. Griffin. You think Jaffe was Russian rather than Polish?

Mr. Fehrenbach. He was definitely Russian.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Fehrenbach. Or at least he had always said that he was. He was Russian, like he told me on so many occasions, he was Russian-Jewish.

Mr. Griffin. During the time that you worked there for Jaffe in 1946 or 1947, were you working for him on a full-time basis?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever work for him on a part-time basis?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; I think whenever I worked for Sam it was always on a full-time basis.

Mr. Griffin. Was Miller working for Jaffe on a full-time basis when you worked for him?

Mr. Fehrenbach. After I came back from the service and went back to work for Sam it seems to me that somehow we did split up there. I think maybe Bill Miller worked a half day and I worked a half day but if we did it was for a very short period of time. It didn’t last very long.

Mr. Griffin. Well now, was Miller hired to replace you when you went into the service?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I assumed he was; yes, he was there when I came back.

Mr. Griffin. Did he continue to work there after you left Jaffe?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; he quit long before I did because after I came back from the service and went to work for Sam it was to the best of my knowledge Bill was only there 3 months at the very longest. And possibly not even that long.

Mr. Griffin. Why don’t we take a break here?

(Short recess.)

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall that this fellow that you know as Jack Rubenstein had any nicknames of any sort?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; I don’t recall anybody calling him anything except Jack. It was either Jack or Mr. Rubenstein and I have never heard him called as Ruby.

There is one reason after we saw it on TV it said Jack Ruby and I believe it was the day after that they came out and said his name was Jack Rubenstein, and then when—of course, they didn’t have a real, I never got to see a good picture of that, until a day or so after the actual killing, that when it came out his name as Jack Rubenstein, I don’t remember if I heard the radio, TV, or saw in the paper or what, I mentioned it to my wife and I said I knew a Jack Rubenstein one time, she said maybe it is the same man and I said why, I don’t think so. That was in Texas and this was back in Indiana and he was from Chicago. Then when they had a picture of him on TV, it was a pretty good picture, it looked very familiar. Of course, he was a little balder then than what he was when I knew him. When I knew him he had a full head of hair, and like I say he was, he had a good muscular build. He wasn’t slender. He wasn’t what you would say fat but he had a good muscular build on him and a very handsome fellow. He looked like the same one I knew only considerably older.

Mr. Griffin. Well, from what you saw on television, can you be positive that that was the man that you recall?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; no, this is what I told the boys there in Medford, Oreg. I cannot swear definitely it is the same man. He looks very similar to the one I knew only like I say somewhat older, and I actually didn’t think anything about it at the time, whether there could be any connection or not until after they said he was from Chicago, Ill., and then is when I said I should call them up, and tell them that I knew a Jack Rubenstein back down there. And that he was, as far as I can remember, and as far as I know, and to the best of my knowledge, he was a member of the Communist Party at that time, or at least he was certainly thickly associated with them.

Mr. Griffin. Really, but you don’t know anything more about his association other than what you have told us here at this time?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No; I did not. I never got to Chicago to see him or meet him or see his establishment; as he called it. So I don’t know anything about his Chicago activities. The only thing I know is that he did come down there and it seemed like every time they came to Muncie, Ind., they would have one of these meetings, either the day before or the same day, and that there was also quite a bit of talk about this meeting they was having.

Mr. Griffin. Well, were these meetings during the week or weekends?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Usually during the week. Because Sunday I wouldn’t have known anything about it. It could have been on a Sunday—no; it couldn’t have been because they were talking about the meeting that night and it couldn’t have been on a Saturday night, I am sure, because we would work until 9 o’clock unless they was quite late.

Mr. Griffin. Now, are you sure that Jack Rubenstein and Charlotte and Seymour came down during the week and not on weekends?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, usually they came on the weekend. It was usually now, as near as I can remember, there was only one time that I remember they came that there was a meeting that night. Usually they came down and spent the weekend, I don’t know where they stayed, whether they stayed with Sam or Lawson or who they stayed with.

Mr. Griffin. You only remember one occasion that Seymour and Charlotte came that there was what you called these meetings at night?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Seymour, that was the second time, that was the day that Jack and I went to dinner, Jack Rubenstein, and this was during the week.

Mr. Griffin. What makes you remember that there was a meeting that night?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Because they was talking, there had been several, I don’t know how many, up there during the day, they was talking about the meeting that night. They never referred to what the meeting was or where the meeting was going to be or anything about it.

Mr. Griffin. What was it that made you remember the meetings on this particular night?

Mr. Fehrenbach. You mean the second time that I met this——

Mr. Griffin. Yes; I take it—— Mr. Fehrenbach. There was a meeting that apparently had some significance because there were so many people coming in.

Mr. Griffin. But that wasn’t the meeting at which you found the list?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No.

Mr. Griffin. But what makes you associate a meeting, a large meeting with Jack Ruby’s or Jack Rubenstein’s visit?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, Jack, Seymour, and Charlotte came in that day, and then there was during the day, I don’t know how many others had come in, and some of them like I say were from Ohio, some of them from Chicago, Indianapolis, Indiana, and various parts, all over, and there was so many people, I was—people I had never seen before. I wasn’t introduced to anybody in any way, shape, or form that day but there was certainly a lot of them running in and out. And it seemed like everybody had to come in and say hello to Sam. This is why I say apparently it must have been a large meeting.

Mr. Griffin. Well, do you know, where the meeting was held?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I assumed that it was held upstairs but I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. But you don’t have any information as to where it was held?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No.

Mr. Griffin. Then you don’t have any information that there was a meeting on this occasion?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Outside of what they was talking about I mean when they came in, they said, why there was one fellow, what made me know the meeting was that night, they came in just as we was leaving, Jack Rubenstein and I was leaving, and Jack said something to him about what are you doing here and he said, well he says, I came to the meeting tonight, and this is why I know there was definitely a meeting that night.

Mr. Griffin. What makes you remember your eating with him, your being with Jack Rubenstein after so many years, what makes you remember your being with him on this particular occasion?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, I don’t know. At the time he asked me to go to lunch with him, I was under the impression that he was something of a—I never really affiliated him with the Communist Party up until at that time, and what he was it was his business; it was none of mine. Like I say, I didn’t think too much about it at that time. But because he asked me to go to lunch with him, I felt pretty important, this is why I remember.

Mr. Griffin. At that point though did you associate him with the Communist Party?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, I more or less, I suppose knew that he was because he was coming in with Seymour and all the rest of them.

Mr. Griffin. You mean you thought he was?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I thought he was but I wasn’t sure. I had no actual knowledge. I mean they never said he was or he never said in any way anything concerning the Communist Party in any way, shape, or form to me and the only way I do connect him with it is like I say when I picked up the list.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever talk with Seymour about the Communist Party?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No.

Mr. Griffin. How many times did you talk with Seymour?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I would assume almost every time that he came in.

Mr. Griffin. So you talked with Seymour at least a dozen times?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. You wouldn’t have any trouble picking out his picture, would you?

Mr. Fehrenbach. No, I don’t believe so. In fact, I think I have already identified his picture twice.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Fehrenbach. I think Mr. Mullaney had some pictures of him. The only thing about it is I remember him as Charlotte’s husband but I couldn’t put his name on it, that Jasson was the one I couldn’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. When he showed you a single picture of Seymour were you able to identify that picture alone?

Mr. Fehrenbach. There was one of them that I couldn’t identify. He had him in, it seems to me he was in a bathing suit. There was one of them I couldn’t identify and I couldn’t tell you which one it was. Anyway he told me it was the same man.

Mr. Griffin. I want to hand you what——

Mr. Fehrenbach. I think one reason why it was so easy for me to pick out this picture of Seymour the first time was because Charlotte was also with him. That was the first picture he showed me, Charlotte and Seymour both together, but then he showed me another one of Seymour that I picked out as the same man and then he showed me another one that I couldn’t identify. I think there were three pictures.

Mr. Griffin. I am going to show you what I have marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 4. I want to hand it to you. That is a photograph of a man. Do you recognize that man in any way?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes, I know this man. I want to say that that is Jack Rubenstein but it doesn’t hardly look like him.

Mr. Griffin. Why not?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, he is a little too heavy there, but he is muscular, heavy build, and it looks like——

Mr. Griffin. What about his features, looks like Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. Fehrenbach. His hair mainly and his eyes.

Mr. Griffin. How about his nose?

Mr. Fehrenbach. The nose is a little out of shape from the way I remember him.

Mr. Griffin. What kind of a nose did Jack Rubenstein have?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, it was, pardon the expression, an ordinary Jewish nose but it didn’t seem like it was that big.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Fehrenbach. And I remember him being as something more handsomer than this fellow here.

Mr. Griffin. More handsome?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes, this fellow is too rugged looking and Jack Rubenstein, the one I knew, didn’t look like a rough character in any way.

Mr. Griffin. I am going to hand you then what I have marked as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 5 and I will ask you—wait, I don’t want to show you that picture, let me show you a better picture. Here is a better one. I want to show you what I have marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach Exhibit No. 6, July 22, 1964.

Look at that picture and tell me if you recognize that man in any way?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, now there again this looks like the Jack Rubenstein that I knew then but he is somewhat older here than when I knew him or at least according to the picture but he looks very nearly the same.

Mr. Griffin. What about him is similar in that picture?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Oh, I don’t know. His whole features are all about the same except he is something older. The hair is still about the same, although his hair is receding somewhat. It seems to me like I remember him he had more hair than that.

Mr. Griffin. Which picture looks more like the Rubenstein that you knew?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I think that other one you showed me looks more like him.

Mr. Griffin. Of the two pictures?

Mr. Fehrenbach. I would say this one here putting them both together, this one.

Mr. Griffin. You are talking about Exhibit No. 6 looking more like him than Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. Fehrenbach. This one here looks more like him.

Mr. Griffin. Exhibit No. 6 looks more like him than Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes. Yes, it does.

Mr. Griffin. From looking at these photographs, do you have some doubts in your mind as to whether either or these—well, let’s take the man in Exhibit No. 6, this one here, do you have some doubt in your mind as to whether this man might be a man who is different from the Jack Rubenstein you knew?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes. I don’t know when this picture was taken but like I say, it does look very familiar or he looks familiar to the same Jack Rubenstein I know only he does look older here than when I remember him.

Mr. Griffin. Other than that, is there any doubt that you might have that these two people might be different people?

Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, this man, I can’t see the body of him too well but he looks like he may be just a little heavier—of course, I can’t tell by his height there but he does look like he might be a little heavier than the one I knew.