The testimony of George William Fehrenbach was taken at 9:30 a.m., on July 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. Griffin. Our normal procedure in these hearings is for me, for the examiner, to identify himself and explain to you the nature of the proceeding we are going through and then to give you a chance to ask any questions before I actually swear you in.
My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
This Commission was established pursuant to an Executive order signed by President Johnson in late November of last year, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress.
The Commission has been directed by virtue of those official acts to investigate into and to evaluate the facts and report back to President Johnson upon the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
The Commission has been authorized to promulgate a set of rules and regulations and which I believe were mailed to you.
Under the rules and regulations of the Commission I have been given the authority to take your deposition here today.
Our purpose in calling you in particular, Mr. Fehrenbach, is to inquire into what you may know about Jack Ruby, but also I might say, generally to obtain any information that you would have pertaining to the death of Lee Oswald or the assassination of President Kennedy.
I believe you received a letter from us?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Could you tell us when you actually received that letter?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Sunday morning. The first letter. I had talked to you on the telephone, and then you told me that you wanted me here Wednesday. So by my being in business for myself I had to work all night Saturday night, and I was still there, I think it was around 9 o’clock Sunday morning the post office called and, of course, they couldn’t deliver the letter to me because the building where I worked was locked, so I went to the post office and got it.
Mr. Griffin. The reason I ask you is that under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have notice 3 days in advance of your appearance before the Commission, and I would ask you if you had not received that 3-day notice whether you had, whether you were willing to waive the notice requirements to go ahead with the deposition, but I see from what you said that you did receive it 3 days in advance so we are within the rules.
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Do you have any questions that you would like to ask before I administer the oath to you and ask you to answer questions?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No; none.
Mr. Griffin. All right. If you will then raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I do.
Mr. Griffin. Would you state for the record your full name?
Mr. Fehrenbach. George William Fehrenbach.
Mr. Griffin. Where do you live now, Mr. Fehrenbach?
Mr. Fehrenbach. In Ashland, Oreg.
Mr. Griffin. Can you tell us when you were born?
Mr. Fehrenbach. March 8, 1926.
Mr. Griffin. Where was that?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Muncie, Ind.
Mr. Griffin. How long did you live in Muncie?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Lived in Muncie until I was 23 or 24, I believe. I could be wrong now. This is going back so far here. It would have been later than that. About 24 or 25.
Mr. Griffin. Can you place that in terms of a particular year?
Mr. Fehrenbach. It would be around 1952.
Mr. Griffin. Where did you——
Mr. Fehrenbach. I left there and went to Jacksonville, Fla.
Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain in Jacksonville?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I was in Jacksonville, Fla., for about 6 years.
Mr. Griffin. Then where did you go from Jacksonville?
Mr. Fehrenbach. To, I went back to Muncie, Ind., was going to stay there for a couple of weeks and visit and then we were going to move on to Grants Pass, Oreg., but we ended up staying there about a year.
Mr. Griffin. When was it that you first went to Oregon?
Mr. Fehrenbach. We went to Oregon, I left for Oregon in March, I believe, it was, of 1959 or 1960, I couldn’t say for sure.
Mr. Griffin. You mean you arrived in Oregon in March of 1959 or 1960?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right.
Mr. Griffin. How do you fix the year 1959 or 1960?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, it was a bad year because I was in Muncie and then my mother-in-law passed away and we was there, I stayed there approximately 8 to 9 months, and there was nothing to do there. I couldn’t go back in the jewelry work because there was already a jeweler there and he was pretty well established.
Mr. Griffin. Don’t you remember how many years you were working in Oregon?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I was with Bob Buckmaster for 2 years, and the Bates Plywood for 2 years.
Mr. Griffin. Excuse me. Let’s go back. Are you now self-employed, is that correct?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right.
Mr. Griffin. And you run a jewelry store?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, I have a jewelry shop.
Mr. Griffin. You have a jewelry shop, what is the name of the town in Oregon?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Medford, Oreg., is where I have the shop.
Mr. Griffin. I see; and you live in what town?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Ashland.
Mr. Griffin. How long have you been operating this shop in Medford, Oreg.?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I bought this shop the first of March of last year; 1963.
Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, prior to March of 1963, what did you do immediately prior to March of 1963?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I was off. I wasn’t working at all for about, roughly I would say around a year and 9 months due to an injury.
Mr. Griffin. What kind of an injury was that?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, my first injury was with Bates Plywood. I had a ladder slide out from underneath me and I just barely got to the place where I was getting around again and I was ready to go back to work again and I was bear hunting and I shot myself.
Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you on the ladder injury accident what sort of injury did you sustain?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I shot myself in the left foot.
Mr. Griffin. When the ladder slipped out from under you?
Mr. Fehrenbach. The injury there was to the right knee.
Mr. Griffin. I see. So, that would have taken you back to sometime in 1962, is that right? You say you were out for 9 months or a year?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right.
Mr. Griffin. All right. Prior to this accident, how long had you actually worked for, was it Bates and Co.?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Bates Plywood. Let’s see, I had been with Bates, I went to work for them March 8, 1960.
Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, immediately before that where were you employed?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I was employed with Buckmaster’s Jewelers.
Mr. Griffin. How long were you employed there?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I was with Buckmaster, I believe it was for 1 year.
Mr. Griffin. So that would have been early 1959 that you went to Oregon?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I went to work for him, I believe it was in March of 1959.
Mr. Griffin. Now, maybe if we can proceed going backward like this we can reconstruct this a little better. What did you do immediately before you went to work for Buckmaster?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I was driving a taxicab in Muncie, Ind.
Mr. Griffin. How long had you done that?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I worked for them for about 6 months. It was the Checker Cab Co. of Muncie, Ind.
Mr. Griffin. Did you leave your employment as a taxi driver and go directly to Oregon or was there a period of unemployment?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No; I went directly to Oregon.
Mr. Griffin. Did you know Buckmaster, had you had some connection?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I had a sister living in Glendale and she had said something to Bob Buckmaster that her brother was a jeweler and I had corresponded on two or three occasions with Bob Buckmaster and he wrote to me and said he would like for me to come to work for him.
Mr. Griffin. Prior to the time you were a taxi driver in Muncie, what did you do?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I was in business in Jacksonville, Fla., for approximately—I was in business for myself but there again I don’t remember—it seems like it was only 1 year because I only had books for 1 year I believe it was or possibly 2, but I think I only had the income tax record for the business there for 1 year, I believe.
Mr. Griffin. Let’s try to make some computations here then. You went to Oregon in about March of 1959.
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. For the 6 months previous to that you were in Muncie?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right, 6 to 9 months.
Mr. Griffin. Which would take you back to the summer perhaps of 1958.
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right.
Mr. Griffin. In the year before that was it a year or 2 years?
Mr. Fehrenbach. It was either a year or 2 years, I can’t remember, that is when I was in business for myself in Jacksonville, Fla.
Mr. Griffin. At least back until the summer of 1957?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right.
Mr. Griffin. You were in Jacksonville, and in business for yourself. Now, how long had you been in Jacksonville before you——
Mr. Fehrenbach. That I can tell you. I was with Underwood Jewelers for 2 years previous to when I quit and went into business for myself.
Mr. Griffin. All right, that would take you back to mid-1955.
Mr. Fehrenbach. I was with Duvall Jewelers previous to Underwood.
Mr. Griffin. That takes you back to mid-1953.
Mr. Fehrenbach. Then I went directly from Muncie, Ind., to Duvall Jewelers.
Mr. Griffin. Is there any way we can establish more clearly that it was 1 year or 2 years that you were self-employed in Jacksonville?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, Yes. Now, I started in my own business in Jacksonville, Fla., in October, this I remember, after I immediately left Underwood. I had two Christmases there, so it would have been roughly a year and 7 months because we left Jacksonville, Fla. after I closed my business up, we left Jacksonville, Fla., then and came to Muncie on our way to Grants Pass and then when my mother-in-law passed away why we stayed over there.
Mr. Griffin. So we might add another 7 months and this would mean that you left Muncie in early 1953 or late 1952?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I believe we will find it was around 1952 when I went there.
Mr. Griffin. All right.
Mr. Fehrenbach. The reason why I can come to this conclusion, I was called back into the service and I was in Green Cove Springs, Fla., that was in 1950 and 1951, and then I was discharged, I went back to Muncie, I went back to work for Borg-Warner Corp., for a year and I stayed there approximately I believe about 8 to 9 months before we left for Jacksonville, Fla.
Mr. Griffin. What branch of the service were you in?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Navy.
Mr. Griffin. Had you been in a Reserve unit, you said you were called back in.
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. So were you in military service during the Second World War?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. When were you in the service?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I was from June of 1944 until June of 1946, 2 years, 2 years and 1 week.
Mr. Griffin. June of 1946 you got out?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right.
Mr. Griffin. Now, are you a high school graduate?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I am now.
Mr. Griffin. I take it you have taken some work after you actually left school?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I took the equivalance test. After I was injured I didn’t know what I was going to do and I was going to go back to college and I had to take the equivalence test and pass that.
Mr. Griffin. Which injury are you now talking about?
Mr. Fehrenbach. This was after the last injury, I went and shot myself.
Mr. Griffin. Hunting. How far did you go with your formal education before you first left school?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I quit school when I was in the 10th grade.
Mr. Griffin. What year would that have been?
Mr. Fehrenbach. That would have been in 1941.
Mr. Griffin. Yes.
Mr. Fehrenbach. I would have graduated in 1944. I left school when I was in the 10th grade in order to go to work for Sam Jaffe. It would have been in 1942.
Mr. Griffin. 1942. How old were you in 1942?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I was 16.
Mr. Griffin. When did you begin working for Mr. Jaffe in 1942?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, it was in the summertime but I could not put the exact date on it or the exact month.
Mr. Griffin. So I take it you completed your term of school in June of 1942 and then during the summer you started to work for Jaffe?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right.
Mr. Griffin. When you began work for him did you work for him on a full-time basis?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. What was your job?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I was a jeweler apprentice.
Mr. Griffin. What did that involve?
Mr. Fehrenbach. That was learning to repair jewelry and diamond setting.
Mr. Griffin. Were you a member of a union in connection with that?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No.
Mr. Griffin. Is there any sort of formal apprenticeship training program?
Mr. Fehrenbach. There wasn’t at that time. Now, I stayed with Mr. Jaffe until 1944 when I went into the service, and then when I was discharged in 1946 I came back, I went back to Mr. Jaffe, went back to work for him. I was there, I think a period of just a few months and then he got set up on this here training program by the Government for training veterans, and I believe I was with him for about 2 years after that.
Mr. Griffin. How did you, in 1942, happen to get this job with Mr. Jaffe?
Mr. Fehrenbach. There was a friend of mine, a Jimmie Tricker who was working for him, and Jimmie’s eyes were very bad, he couldn’t see to do the work, and so Sam had asked him if he knew of another young boy that would be interested in learning this work. So Jimmie told him about me and I went to him, and it worked out and I stayed with him.
Mr. Griffin. Was Jimmie Tricker the same age as you?
Mr. Fehrenbach. He was the same age as I was.
Mr. Griffin. How long had he worked for Mr. Jaffe?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Jimmie had only been there about a week or so until he found out that he couldn’t see.
Mr. Griffin. During this period from 1942 to 1944, did Mr. Jaffe have any other employees beside you?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Not at that time, no.
Mr. Griffin. So from 1942 to 1944 you were the only employee of Sam Jaffe?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right.
Mr. Griffin. Where was his jewelry store located?
Mr. Fehrenbach. The jewelry store or his jewelry shop, he didn’t have a store, he had a jewelry shop at that time, was located on Walnut Street between Charles and Jackson and that is as close as I can come to it.
Mr. Griffin. How large a building was it in?
Mr. Fehrenbach. It was in a two-, three-story building.
Mr. Griffin. What floor was his shop on?
Mr. Fehrenbach. He was on the second floor.
Mr. Griffin. Did he have a walk-in trade or how did he operate?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No, I don’t believe—I think he had a few friends that would come up, but his friend’s was a business similar to mine, it was strictly wholesale, doing jewelry work for the other jewelry stores.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember what business was located directly beneath him.
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes. Lawson’s Jewelers were right below us, Lawson’s Jewelers, and then an entrance to the building and then there was an apparel shop on the other side but I am not sure of the name of that. It could have been, I believe it was, Roth. Roth clothing store.
Mr. Griffin. Now, you say you don’t remember whether this was a two- or three-story building?
Mr. Fehrenbach. It was a three-story building.
Mr. Griffin. Was there anything above the shop?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes, there was an union hall above it.
Mr. Griffin. What union was that?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I am not sure. There was too many unions around there. There was an automotive workers union and the plumbers union and every kind of union you can think of. But I remember it was a union hall because they used to rent it out and they used to have dances up there. I think it was around every Saturday night they would have a dance there and they had their meetings up there and then anybody who wanted to have meetings could rent the place.
Mr. Griffin. Did they have any other activity up there?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Other than just the dances and the meetings and then this is the place where all the friends of Sam Jaffe and which were, to my honest opinion were, all Communists used to meet up there.
Mr. Griffin. Well now, did they have any gambling up there in that union hall?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I had heard but I couldn’t say that there definitely was.
Mr. Griffin. How do you know that they had dancing up there?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, I was working on Saturday night many times, we stayed open until 9 o’clock.
Mr. Griffin. You say Sam Jaffe’s friends used to meet up there?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. How do you happen to know that?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, this was, for the 2 years I had worked with Sam Jaffe, Morton and Herb Pazol, and Phil Jasser, Morton Standt, oh, golly, there were so many of them it is hard to remember—several of the employees from the other jewelery stores, Lawson Jaffe, of course.
Mr. Griffin. Did Lawson Jaffe run Lawson’s jewelery store?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right. He was the nephew to Sam Jaffe.
Then there was Roth, I don’t remember his first name. Then there was a Pritcher, Max Pritcher, Max and Harry Pritcher.
Mr. Griffin. How do you spell that?
Mr. Fehrenbach. They were son-in-laws to Sam. One of them was a son-in-law to Sam.
Mr. Griffin. How old was Sam Jaffe at this time, would you say?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I would say roughly Sam was around 55, 60.
Mr. Griffin. You say that Sam Jaffe met with his friends up in this union hall?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well now, all of these people were connected with businesses around Muncie, and they used to come up there at various times to talk with Sam.
Mr. Griffin. To the second floor, to Sam’s jewelry store?
Mr. Fehrenbach. The second floor shop.
Mr. Griffin. Yes.
Mr. Fehrenbach. Our shop was here and, of course, we had an office over here.
Mr. Griffin. We can’t see the motions you are making with your hands, this man has a machine.
Mr. Fehrenbach. The office adjacent to the shop.
Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you to do this. I will give you a piece of paper and a pencil and I want you first to draw us a diagram and we can perhaps talk from the diagram.
Mr. Fehrenbach. All right.
Our shop is here, and then Mr. Jaffe’s office was here next to it. And there was a doorway here and our benches were here. The entrance into the shop was here.
Mr. Griffin. All right.
Would you want to write “Jaffe’s office.” Would you want to indicate somewhere where the street is?
Mr. Fehrenbach. This street was here. This was Walnut Street.
Mr. Griffin. All right. Why don’t you write “Walnut Street” on there.
Now, would you indicate where you, write in there, where you, mentioned the benches were.
If I can state for the record in words, what you have drawn there; you have indicated that there are two rooms to the shop, each room facing on Walnut Street.
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right.
Mr. Griffin. The larger room, which is open to the public, has benches in it and the benches run along the entire side of the room which faces Walnut Street.
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right.
Mr. Griffin. OK.
Let me mark that for identification as George William Fehrenbach, July 22, 1964, Deposition Exhibit No. 1.
(The diagram referred to was marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach, July 22, 1964, Deposition Exhibit No. 1.)
Mr. Griffin. You started to draw this exhibit I think in connection with explaining how people would come into the shop and talk to him.
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes, the stairway from Walnut Street ran directly below us. It came out about here and they would come around this way and enter the shop.
Mr. Griffin. In other words, the stairway ran up behind the shop, and they would really enter from the back side of the shop, that is?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right, because this was on the second floor.
Mr. Griffin. Yes. There was a hallway, I take it, on the back side of the shop.
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right.
Mr. Griffin. And so that the shop was between the hallway and Walnut Street?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right.
Mr. Griffin. Now, you say people would come in and visit in the shop?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes, they would come in here. Mr. Jaffe worked at the first bench here and my bench was the second one here and they would usually go into the office but, of course, I could overhear many of the things they said when they was talking in there.
Now, to my honest opinion, I don’t remember whether Mr. Jaffe ever attended any of the meetings upstairs, but they used to come up and talk about having these meetings with him.
Mr. Griffin. Let’s talk about particular individuals. What particular individual do you remember coming in and talking to him?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Phil Jasser was one of the main ones.
Mr. Griffin. All right now, what did Philip Jasser do for a living?
Mr. Fehrenbach. He had a clothing store.
Mr. Griffin. How often did you see Philip Jasser in the store?
Mr. Fehrenbach. On the average they—three or four times a week.
Mr. Griffin. Were you present when he talked with Mr. Jaffe?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes, I was in the shop. Many times they would talk right there in the shop also.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember any conversations they had?
Mr. Fehrenbach. None in particular. I was always taught, I mean, not to interfere with the other people’s business but, of course, by overlistening and different things they would be talking about the meeting and who would be there.
Mr. Griffin. What kind of a meeting did Jasser talk about?
Mr. Fehrenbach. At that time I really didn’t know what kind of meetings they were. I think—I knew they had something to do with Russia at that time. That is all I knew, and with the Communist Party. All of them——
Mr. Griffin. What was said that indicated to you that it had to do with Russia?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Because Phil Jasser, Morton and Herb Pazol, Morton Standt, Lawson Jaffe, and there was another man, Shuster, and I can’t remember his first name, all these men at one time or another have talked to me trying to get me to join their party, to join the Communist Party.
Mr. Griffin. Who—let me get these names. You say Standt talked to you?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Morton Standt.
Mr. Griffin. And Jasser talked to you?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Phil Jasser was the worst one.
Mr. Griffin. Who else?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Herb and Morton Pazol had talked to me. They hadn’t said too much but they had talked to me at times.
Mr. Griffin. Who else?
Mr. Fehrenbach. And Lawson Jaffe; and then Shuster.
Mr. Griffin. What is Shuster’s first name?
Mr. Fehrenbach. This I can’t remember.
Mr. Griffin. What did he do for a living?
Mr. Fehrenbach. He had a Shuster’s Clothing.
Mr. Griffin. Anybody else that you can think of?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well now, those were the only ones there in Muncie, Ind. Now, there were several of them that used to come from Chicago.
Mr. Griffin. Before we get to that let’s stay with the people in Muncie.
When was the first time that anyone of these men talked to you about what you called Russia or the Communist Party?
Mr. Fehrenbach. The first time was shortly after I went to work for Sam Jaffe, and Phil Jasser came in there.
Mr. Griffin. What did he say to you?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, he was telling me how wonderful it would be if everybody made the same amount of money whether they owned the store or whether they worked for it, and I can’t remember all the stuff he used to give me because he would very seldom get very far before Sam would interrupt and make him get out because Sam refused to let him talk to me if he was there.
Mr. Griffin. I see. Did you get some indication that perhaps Sam didn’t even want to have these political talks going on?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I always had the feeling that he didn’t like it, because now they was more or less down on Sam because of the fact that they used to fly the Russian flag in the synagogue and that was the Jewish temple there, and Sam put up a very strong protest about flying the Russian flag and said if they was going to live in the United States and be U.S. citizens then they should live by the U.S. flag, and because of that it was my understanding, whether it ever happened or not, but I have been told by two or three different ones, I can’t say particularly who they were right now, they were even threatening to throw Sam out of the synagogue because of it.
And I know whenever he came up there or if he ever came in and caught them talking to me about getting on the right side of the fence and joining their party and attending some of these meetings he would immediately jump on him, make him get out and he would lecture to me for 5 or 10 minutes not to pay any attention to them.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know of other young men in Muncie whom these men approached?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No; I didn’t. Not at that time I didn’t know any of the other young fellows. Most of them were all of the age of Sam. Lawson was, I think, about the youngest and, of course, his sons-in-law were a little older than I. I would say they was in their late twenties.
Mr. Griffin. Perhaps I should make my question a little more clear. Were there other people your age in Muncie whom, that you know of, your friends or what not?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No.
Mr. Griffin. That these men approached?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No; none that I know of.
Mr. Griffin. Had you known any of these men before you worked for Jaffe?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No.
Mr. Griffin. Was there anything that would indicate why they should have approached you about this?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No; no reason that I know of outside of the fact I was working for Sam.
Mr. Griffin. When you were first approached by these people did you tell anybody that you had been—that they had approached you?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No.
Mr. Griffin. Why was that?
Mr. Fehrenbach. It wasn’t really important to me at that time.
Mr. Griffin. You have indicated that you think now that they were approaching you about joining the Communist Party. Did you at that time think that they were approaching you about joining the Communist Party?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; they made no bones about it.
Mr. Griffin. What specifically did they say that would indicate they were talking about the Communist Party?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, now Phil Jasser is the one who talked to me the most and he was always talking about getting on the right side of the fence, and I had asked him specifically on several occasions what he meant by the right side of the fence, and he said well, he said, join the Communist Party.
He said, “Join us in this.”
Mr. Griffin. How did they know you were on the wrong side of the fence?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Because I wouldn’t attend the meetings, I suppose, I never——
Mr. Griffin. The first time, who was the first person to ever approach you?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Phil Jasser was the first one to ever approach me.
Mr. Griffin. This must be a, as you look back, this must be an occasion that you have some recollection of.
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; because I didn’t know exactly just how to take it I didn’t want to jeopardize my job with Sam Jaffe and I didn’t want to be rude to the man, and so, therefore, I told him that I would have to think about it, and I just kept putting him off.
Mr. Griffin. What did he say on this first occasion?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, the first time he talked to me it was about how nice it would be if everybody made the same amount of money.
Mr. Griffin. How did he happen to start that conversation with you?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I don’t know. I was sitting there working and Sam was out, and Phil came in and he was waiting on Sam so he got to talking to me and asked me how I liked the work and I said fine, I loved it.
Mr. Griffin. Were you a hardworking fellow?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, I tried to be.
Mr. Griffin. And what sort of wages did you get at that, point?
Mr. Fehrenbach. When I was serving my apprenticeship I was working for $35 a week to start with.
Mr. Griffin. Was that a good wage at that time?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No; I can’t say that it was a good wage, but I was learning a good trade.
Mr. Griffin. Was there anything that you had said or done that would indicate that you were unhappy that you weren’t making more money?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No.
Mr. Griffin. Was there anything about you or anything that you had said which would indicate, have indicated to Mr. Jasser that you might be receptive to the kind of things he was saying to you?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Nothing that I know of.
Mr. Griffin. Go ahead and tell us more about this conversation.
Mr. Fehrenbach. Oh, he would—there were so many things there, but the main point he was trying to get across to me was this fact of everybody making more money, everybody made the same amount of money regardless of who their employer—their employer didn’t actually make more money than the employees did.
Mr. Griffin. At that time did he mention the Communist Party in that conversation?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Not at that time; I would say it took approximately a couple or 3 months before he actually come around and told me then that, now my understanding were they were all Russian Jews but he didn’t—I believe he called it the Fifth Party or something like that, and I didn’t even know at that time what he was talking about and then I pointblank asked him why was the Communist Party, why did he consider the Communist Party so much better than our own democracy that we had here, and he said, “Because eventually,” he said, “We are going to rule the entire world.” He said it is bound to come.
Mr. Griffin. Did he say, did he use the word “we” or did he say that they would?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, the Communist Party would eventually rule the world.
Mr. Griffin. Did he say the Communist Party or did he say Communist philosophy or Marxist doctrine or something like that?
Mr. Fehrenbach. It wasn’t Marxist but it seemed to me like he said the Communist Party or the Communists——
Mr. Griffin. Can you be sure at this point whether he said the Communist Party or whether he said philosophy?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; I can definitely be sure he said the Communist Party or the Communist, I can’t be sure whether he said the Communist Party or the Communist doctrine or what it was.
Mr. Griffin. Something about Communist?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. You are not sure whether it was the Communist Party, the Communist doctrine or the Communist philosophy?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No; I am not.
Mr. Griffin. And during these conversations what attitude had you indicated?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I wasn’t interested. They knew this.
Mr. Griffin. But he continued to——
Mr. Fehrenbach. They continued to, just little different things that would be said. I can’t remember offhand.
Mr. Griffin. Did you argue with him?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No; I never argued with him. Like I said I didn’t want to jeopardize my job there.
Mr. Griffin. How long would these conversations last?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Anywhere from maybe a couple of minutes to 5 or 10 minutes.
Mr. Griffin. Did they all occur up there in the shop?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; they never approached me out of the shop. The only one other man that ever give me a bad time was Lawson Jaffe.
Mr. Griffin. Did anybody, was anybody else—let me ask you this. Did these conversations continue after you returned from military service?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Lawson Jaffe approached me one time after I returned from the service, and I can’t remember exactly how it all come about or what it was he said, but anyway he made some reference that I would have certainly looked a lot better in a good military uniform. He said, “You looked very, very silly in that Navy uniform.”
And that made me mad and I said, “Well, I suppose I should have been in the Russian Army or something.” I said, “That would have probably made you happier.” He said. “Well, you would have been on the right side of the fence at least.” And I said——
Mr. Griffin. Who was it who said this?
Mr. Fehrenbach. This was Lawson Jaffe. That was Sam’s nephew. I said, “That is your opinion,” and I said, “I will keep mine.”
Mr. Griffin. Was anybody else present during this conversation?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; Sam was there.
Mr. Griffin. Sam Jaffe?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. During the conversations and all the rest of the conversations that took place up in Jaffe’s——
Mr. Fehrenbach. They would always approach me whenever Sam was not there.
Mr. Griffin. Shop?
Mr. Fehrenbach. When Sam was there nobody said anything about this, concerning this, to me in any way, shape, or form.
Mr. Griffin. Did you have the impression that Sam Jaffe was not in sympathy with these people?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I had the impression that he was not in sympathy or if he was he certainly didn’t want me in there. I can’t say that Sam had anything against me personally because Sam treated me actually in many ways almost like a father. And I thought enough of Sam that I would have done anything for him. But like I say, he did get quite provoked on several occasions when he would come in there and catch them talking with me, especially Phil Jasser.
Mr. Griffin. In the period from 1942 to 1944, did Sam Jaffe have any children who were living in Muncie?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; and this is where I got mixed up. One of them I couldn’t even remember until Mr. Mullaney, the FBI there, in Oregon, told me her name, that was Rosalyn, I believe, there was the one daughter that I had never really met. Marion was married to Max Pritcher. How you spell Pritcher, I don’t know.
Mr. Griffin. How old was Marion would you guess?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I would say around 28 or 29.
Mr. Griffin. She was about 12 years older than you?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes. I would say roughly that is about how old she was.
Mr. Griffin. Now, did he have any other children?
Mr. Fehrenbach. That was the only daughter that I knew of living in Muncie at that time. Now, where Rosalyn lived I don’t know. Charlotte was living in Chicago and she was married to Seymour Jasson.
Mr. Griffin. Charlotte was living in Chicago and she was living with Seymour who?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Jasson.
Mr. Griffin. How do you spell that?
Mr. Fehrenbach. J-a-s-s-o-n; I would assume.
Mr. Griffin. Did anybody besides Phil Jasser and Lawson Jaffe ever have any conversations with you about communism?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Herb and Morton Pazol would mention it but they never—I can’t actually say. Their comments would more or less be made to the place where I could hear them but not directed. I don’t believe directly at me but yet it was put in such a way that I would have taken it to have been directed at me.
Mr. Griffin. I take it then that all of the conversations that you had with these men occurred between 1942 and 1944 with the exception of the one conversation you had after you got out of the service?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, after I got out of the service, that is when I got into the argument with Lawson, and then I believe Phil Jasser had, he had mentioned, I think on one or two occasions had said something about they had more or less after I had been in the service, they had more or less shied away from me.
Mr. Griffin. When did you first come to think that these men were Communists?
Mr. Fehrenbach. That was in either the latter part of 1946 or the early part of 1947.
Mr. Griffin. Well now, before this you indicated that one of them had asked you to join the Communist Party?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, you mean when I knew all of these men belonged to the Communist Party?
Mr. Griffin. No; when did you know that any one of them——
Mr. Fehrenbach. That would have been in 1942 that was shortly after I went to work for Sam Jaffe, Phil Jasser spoke to me.
Mr. Griffin. You formed the opinion then that Phil Jasser was a Communist?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; I did.
Mr. Griffin. Are there any of these men that you have mentioned whom you don’t think were Communists?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No.
Mr. Griffin. Well now, you have indicated you didn’t think Sam Jaffe was a Communist?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, Sam Jaffe.
Mr. Griffin. How about his son-in-law, Max Pritcher? Do you have any doubts about his being a Communist?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No; I don’t.
Mr. Griffin. What makes you think he was a Communist?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Because he was always there at the meetings; whenever they were going to have a meeting upstairs why he was always there. They would all be up there in the afternoon and they would talk about being at the meeting at night.
Mr. Griffin. How many people attended the meetings that you are talking about?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I don’t know; because the days or the evenings that they had their meeting, I had never been in the building, but I would judge there must have been quite a few from the list of names that I picked up.
Mr. Griffin. You never attended any of those meetings; did you?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know what time the meetings took place?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No; I couldn’t tell you that.
Mr. Griffin. Well, did they take place in the afternoon?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No; they was in the evening, usually at night, anyway it was after everything was closed, after 5:30.
Mr. Griffin. I see. How many of these men would come to your shop at any one time before these meetings?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Very seldom would there be over three or four at any one time.
Mr. Griffin. What would they do—what would they do when they would come into your shop?
Mr. Fehrenbach. They would go into the office with Sam and usually talk about different ones who were going to come and things like that. Whenever they got to talking about what the meeting was about I never overheard anything like that because they usually lowered their voices.
Mr. Griffin. So when they said—what you would do is see two or three men come into the shop and they would go into Sam Jaffe’s office. They would have a conversation but you wouldn’t know what the conversation was about?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No.
Mr. Griffin. Well now, then upon what do you base your conclusion that the meetings that you think they had upstairs were Communist meetings?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, back at that time there was no actually secret among any of them to the fact—they didn’t actually publicize it, don’t get me wrong, but they didn’t deny that they were Communists, and Sam, of course, had told me that the majority of them were all Communists.
Mr. Griffin. Sam Jaffe had told you that?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; and told me not to listen to them and not to pay any attention to them.
Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you that his son-in-law, Max Pritcher, was a Communist?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Yes; he said that Max and all of them, and he said, now he says, “I don’t think Max or Seymour will ever say anything to you because,” he says, “I have given them definite orders not to say anything to you,” and he said, “I don’t think Lawson will ever talk to you.”
Mr. Griffin. Now, you don’t have any knowledge, though, do you, as to whether these people were what one would call card-carrying members of the party?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No; this I couldn’t say, at least I had never seen any of them with a card or none of them had ever shown me a card.
Mr. Griffin. Do you have any information that these men were doing anything other than discussing Marxist philosophy?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No; I don’t think they was—I think that is all they talked about. I know, one of the main things they used to get into the biggest argument about was who was doing the most during the war Russia or the United States, and Russia, of course, they said was doing everything.
Mr. Griffin. Is it fair to say from your observations that you don’t know whether there was anything more than a philosophical discussion or general discussion of political ideas taking place?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, that would be the only way I could put it because I never knew of anything else that they——
Mr. Griffin. You don’t have any information that there was any sort of espionage or anything like that going on?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No.
Mr. Griffin. So when you make the statement that, for example, Max Pritcher was a Communist, what you are saying is that he discussed with these other men the Communist philosophy.
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right. How so much better if they could get the United States to see their way, and I don’t know, they just didn’t agree with anything the U.S. Government done in any way, shape or form. This is, I suppose, one reason that turned me more or less against all of them, I mean, because that and the fact that Lawson Jaffe and everyone of them at one time or another ridiculed the United States.
Mr. Griffin. Did you tell any of your friends or family about these people?
Mr. Fehrenbach. My mother knew about it, and, of course, I suppose I said something to my father, although I was—my father and I didn’t talk too much. He was never home, and I never saw him too much. And then, of course, after I was married why my wife knew about it.
Mr. Griffin. Did you tell any friends about it?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No; I didn’t.
Mr. Griffin. I take it that you have never reported to any government agency the fact that you thought these particular men were Communists?
Mr. Fehrenbach. How could I prove it? The only time—but I did report at one time, and this was after I came back from the service, and I went up there one morning, I knew they was having a meeting upstairs the night before because so many different ones had come in and apparently this must have been a real rally meeting because they were coming in from Chicago and several different places and this is one of the times, this was to my opinion, to the best of my knowledge, this was the last time that I met the man that they called Jack Rubenstein, and he came in with Seymour Jasson, and one or two other men from Chicago. And the next morning when I went back to work they had taken one of the chairs out of the shop and I had to go upstairs to the hall and get the chair.
The door wasn’t locked and I went in and I picked the chair up and there was a table in there. Well, there were tables down both sides of the hallway and then one across the front of the room, and there was a sheaf of papers on the table up in front where our chair was, and I didn’t really pay any attention to it then until I happened to glance at it and there was a list of names and to my recollection there were two or three sheets full of names on there, and I glanced at the first few of them.
Mr. Griffin. Can you describe these sheets of paper?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, all it was was, I would say, typewritten paper, typewriter paper, similar to typewriter paper. It might have been a little longer.
Mr. Griffin. Were the names handwritten or typewritten?
Mr. Fehrenbach. The names were all typewritten. There were no addresses, if I remember correctly there were no addresses, and the first few names I looked at and there was Lawson Jaffe at the top, I think he was the first one, I don’t believe I can put them right directly in order and I can only remember the first four or five.
Mr. Griffin. Tell us how many names were there altogether would you estimate on this list?
Mr. Fehrenbach. There must have been 100, 150, three pages of them typewritten and how many names they could get on one page I don’t know.
Mr. Griffin. Tell us who the names were on the list?
Mr. Fehrenbach. The first one I can remember there was Lawson Jaffe, Herb and Morton Pazol, Morton Standt and Shuster’s name, and I can’t remember what his first name was.
Mr. Griffin. Did you say he was in the clothing business?
Mr. Fehrenbach. He was in the clothing business.
Mr. Griffin. Was this a garment workers union that was upstairs?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I don’t know.
Mr. Griffin. Or a clothing workers union?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I don’t believe it was garment workers. The only one that I can think of that it might have been was the automotive workers union hall. I don’t even know why I think that because that is the only one that I can think of that could have been up there.
Mr. Griffin. What industries were there in Muncie at the time?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, there was Borg-Warner Corp., Chevrolet, Delco-Remy, Ball Brothers, who made Ball fruit jars.
Mr. Griffin. Is the automobile industry the big industry in Muncie?
Mr. Fehrenbach. That was the biggest one I would say.
Mr. Griffin. Were there any clothing manufacturers?
Mr. Fehrenbach. That I don’t know.
Mr. Griffin. How about the electrical industry? Was there the electrical industry?
Mr. Fehrenbach. There wasn’t at that time; no, or to the best of my knowledge, there wasn’t.
Mr. Griffin. Any heavy industry such as steel mills or——
Mr. Fehrenbach. No; there were several factories but like I said most of them were all either making parts for automobiles or—there was no assembly plants there but it was all——
Mr. Griffin. Tell us any other names you remember on the list.
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, Seymour Jasson and Max and Harry Pritcher was on there, and if I remember correctly, although I can’t swear to this, but it seems to me that Jack Rubenstein was on there, sixth or seventh down on the list.
Mr. Griffin. What makes you think that the name Jack Rubenstein was on there?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, there was another man whose name wasn’t Rubenstein, it was Rosenstein, I believe, Rosenstein I had never heard of or I never met, I had heard of him but I had never met him. But Rubenstein I had met on two or three different occasions and when I seen it it more or less, I wondered at the time if he was actually a member, because he had never said anything to me concerning it. But there was a Jack, and this is one reason why I say it was Jack Rubenstein because I can’t recall what Rosenstein’s name was but it wasn’t Jack, and this fellow’s name was Jack.
Mr. Griffin. What you remember most clearly is that on this list there was a man whose name was Jack?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Right; and then the rest of it started with an “R” and there was a “stein” on the end of it and that was as far as I got. I laid it back down and I got to thinking about it and I said, “Well, Lawson Jaffe, you give me a bad time and I will just give you a bad time,” so I picked it up, folded it up, put it inside my shirt and took the chair down to the shop and I thought I would give this to the FBI.
They were in Indianapolis and I suppose I should have called them long distance and told them I had it but I didn’t, and Merv Collins was the chief of detectives and also my wife’s uncle and I thought I would give it to him and he would give it to them so he was the man I gave it to.
Mr. Griffin. What did he say?
Mr. Fehrenbach. He said, “I will see it gets into the proper hands.”
Mr. Griffin. Did he indicate that he knew about this?
Mr. Fehrenbach. He didn’t seem at all surprised. But he said, “I will see that these get into the proper hands.” I told him what I thought this was or what they were, I believe this was a muster list of the Communist Party that have been holding meetings here and I said, “I know this.” I said I have known of several meetings and they have had and I said I have heard them when they all come up that they were holding a meeting that night and I said I went up there and this list was on the table and I said I thought they ought to be given to the proper authority and he said, “I will see that it gets into the proper hands.”
Mr. Griffin. How long did you retain that list before you gave it to Mr. Collins?
Mr. Fehrenbach. I put it in my shirt and I think that was about, it must have been around, 9 o’clock in the morning, between 9 and 9:30, and then I went out of the shop, just shortly thereafter because it was burning a hole in my belly, the thing was. I knew I didn’t want to hold onto it and so I made the excuse of getting out of the shop and going for a cup of coffee, I can’t remember what it was that I told Sam I was going to do, so I took it directly from there over to Merv Collins and back to the shop. Just so I got it off my—that is all I was worried about.
Mr. Griffin. And when was the next time that you had occasion to think about the names that were on that list?
Mr. Fehrenbach. Well, actually I regretted, and I still regret in a way that I didn’t actually take time to look, read all the names but I didn’t. All I did was look at the first few and seen who they were and now these were boys who had at one time said something to me or indicated that they were Communists, and so I just figured they all were. And I figured if it was given to the proper authorities they could investigate and find out for themselves or find out for sure.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever inquire of Mr. Collins what had become of that list after you gave it to him?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No, because actually, I don’t believe there was any law against the Communist Party at that time unless they was doing actually sabotaging or teaching the violent overthrow of the Government or something like that and as far as I know none of these men were practicing anything like that.
Mr. Griffin. Now, at the time that in the late forties and early fifties when the country was very interested in these kind of activities. Senator McCarthy and people in the Congress were active in this, is there any reason why at that time you didn’t make known your experience in Muncie?
Mr. Fehrenbach. No, I had turned the list in, and so I just took it for granted if they wanted to talk to me about anything about it that they would have contacted me, and it never dawned on me, that Merv never turned it over to the FBI.