Mr. Crowe. No.

Mr. Hubert. So that it is possible that you may have told him that on the very first call?

Mr. Crowe. No; I mean no, I had not mentioned that to him on the first call. I have heard David Hoy state to others in front of me that I was the one that called him to tell him about Jack Ruby and what he was like and working with him. But that is all he has ever said. He has never said that I had called him and told him that I had seen Oswald in the club the week before, because I hadn’t. I hadn’t mentioned that to him until later on in the afternoon.

Mr. Hubert. Did you speak to a man by the name of Dale Burgess on that day who was with the radio station, I believe, or some news media in Evansville?

Mr. Crowe. I don’t recall the name. I spoke to a newspaperman in Evansville.

Mr. Hubert. Who was that?

Mr. Crowe. I don’t recall.

Mr. Hubert. When?

Mr. Crowe. That same Sunday.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the time?

Mr. Crowe. No; I don’t. It would have had to have been, well, in the late afternoon, I guess.

Mr. Hubert. Is Evansville on central standard time or eastern time?

Mr. Crowe. Central.

Mr. Hubert. What was the time of your second call to Mr. Hoy?

Mr. Crowe. I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Well, relative to the events which were taking place, considering that I think you said it was about noon, well, it was about 11:30 when you first called him and then you went down to the club——

Mr. Crowe. And then went to the——

Mr. Hubert. Were interviewed by the newsmen and went to what you thought was Ruby’s house and came back.

Mr. Crowe. Yes; and then to the television station.

Mr. Hubert. Television station and made a statement?

Mr. Crowe. Was interviewed there, and then went back to the motel I guess, so that would be——

Mr. Hubert. Was it at that time that you called Hoy?

Mr. Crowe. I guess it would be about maybe three.

Mr. Hubert. What was the purpose of calling Hoy the second time?

Mr. Crowe. To—I don’t remember whether I did call him or he called me. I know I spoke to him. Anyway, I told him about the series of coincidences.

Mr. Hubert. And that was the first time you had told him about that?

Mr. Crowe. That was the first time; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was that before or after you spoke to the other newsman from Evansville whose name you couldn’t remember?

Mr. Crowe. I would say before.

Mr. Hubert. Then after you had talked to Hoy the second time is when you spoke to the newsman from Evansville?

Mr. Crowe. Right. I think he had the newsman call me.

Mr. Hubert. And you are not certain whether Hoy called you or you called Hoy?

Mr. Crowe. No. There were about 3 or 4 calls going out——

Mr. Hubert. Were you present, where did this second call take place from, where were you when you made the second call?

Mr. Crowe. Right at the motel.

Mr. Hubert. You say there were some more calls that day between you and Hoy?

Mr. Crowe. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What were they about?

Mr. Crowe. He had called me once, and said that the American News, I think, or the American Broadcasting, the word American comes to my mind, had suggested that he tell me to make myself scarce or to hide out or to move and let my whereabouts not be known.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say why you should take such action?

Mr. Crowe. He said that it had been expressed to him that my life would be in danger.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you why he thought or he had heard that your life might be in danger?

Mr. Crowe. Because I had mentioned about seeing Oswald in the club.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say who would be interested at all in killing you for that reason?

Mr. Crowe. He didn’t know. He was just expressing what he said he had heard from another news media. And maybe they were thought friends of Jack’s, you know, or I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Well now, you made, I think, a previous statement both to the FBI and—I think you gave an affidavit in Dallas—to the Secret Service attested by a notary public—no, by Mr. John Joe Howlett, special agent of the Secret Service. For purposes of identification, I am going to mark these two documents which I am going to show you in a moment as follows to wit, first of all, the FBI report dated November 24, or rather which purports to be a report on an interview with you on November 24th by FBI Agents Robert Lish and Emory Morton. For the purpose of identification I am going to mark this document on the right-hand margin as follows: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of William D. Crowe, Jr.”, signing my name below that, the document consisting of one page only. And another document which purports to be an affidavit given by you on November 25 at 1 p.m. attested by John Joe Howlett, special agent of the U.S. Secret Service with Pauline Churchill as a witness. For purposes of identification I am marking that document as follows, to wit, “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 2, Deposition of William D. Crowe, Jr.”, and I am signing my name below on that.

(The documents referred to were marked Crowe Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 for identification.)

Mr. Crowe, I wish you would read both of these documents with this in mind, that I am going to ask you in a moment whether these documents represent the truth or whether there are any changes or corrections that should be made in them, and so forth. So if you would look at them and you can make notes, if you wish on this pad or just make little check marks if you see anything that represents what is now considered by you to be not true. We will go into those matters after you have had a chance to read those documents.

Mr. Crowe. Those are it; no changes.

Mr. Hubert. You have examined the two documents which have been marked for identification as Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 relating to your deposition; and I understand you now to say that those documents represent the truth as you know it, is that correct?

Mr. Crowe. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, Exhibit No. 2 is your own affidavit.

Mr. Crowe. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I assume that you signed it—I mean you read it before you signed it?

Mr. Crowe. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Exhibit No. 1 on the other hand is a report of an interview which you have not seen before, I take it, and I specifically ask you if such is a correct representation of the inquiry?

Mr. Crowe. Yes; these are the questions, yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, will you tell us what is your present recollection concerning whether Oswald was in the Carousel Club during the week preceding the death of the President?

Mr. Crowe. Would you state the first part of the question again?

Mr. Hubert. Would you give us your present recollection concerning whether Lee Harvey Oswald was in the Carousel Club on the week preceding the death of the President?

Mr. Crowe. From what I recall, the face appeared familiar and I possibly saw Lee Harvey Oswald in the club the week before.

Mr. Hubert. Were the lighting conditions in the club such that you could have seen him?

Mr. Crowe. To some extent. If he was sitting right at the foot of the stage.

Mr. Hubert. If not, that is if he were not sitting right at the foot of the stage, then what?

Mr. Crowe. Then I wouldn’t have used him and I wouldn’t have seen him.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, your act required that you use the people up front in the first place?

Mr. Crowe. Right.

Mr. Hubert. And secondly, the lighting was such that you couldn’t have seen him if he were not in the first row; right?

Mr. Crowe. Right.

Mr. Hubert. So that whomever you saw you thought and think might have a resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald must have been in the first row?

Mr. Crowe. Right. I might say this: Bill Willis, the drummer in the band at the club, said he seemed to remember Lee Harvey Oswald sitting in the front row on Thursday night right in the corner of the stage and the runway.

Mr. Hubert. Did you get this from Willis himself?

Mr. Crowe. Right. But I wouldn’t make that statement myself. But then I don’t recall the night or the exact spot.

Mr. Hubert. I would like to show you a number of pictures which I am not going to give identifying numbers for this deposition since they have already been given identification numbers, but, for example, I now hand to you four pictures, the first two that I am going to call out being really a series of pictures—no, the first one, I am sorry, being a series of pictures, and the other three being individual pictures. These have previously been identified as Exhibits Nos. 5212, 5221, 5206, and 5205 in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, taken in Washington, D.C., on April 10, 1964.

I am going to ask you to look at these pictures and see if in any of them you see anybody that resembles the man that you may have seen there and who might look like Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Crowe. When were these taken?

Mr. Hubert. Well, I don’t know. I would just like to ask you to examine them and see if there is anybody in there that looks like the man you used in your memory act and who was in the front row, and who you think looked like Lee Harvey Oswald. And whom you said may have been in the Carousel Club during the week prior to the death of the President?

Mr. Crowe. No.

Mr. Hubert. You have said no after examining the picture which has been previously identified as No. 5212 of the deposition of Crafard. Now, you are looking at the picture which has been identified as Exhibit No. 5221 of the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and I ask you the same question as to that picture?

Mr. Crowe. No.

Mr. Hubert. All right, your answer no is in response to the question relative to Exhibit No. 5221, deposition of Crafard. Would you look at the next picture, please, which has been identified previously as Exhibit No. 5206

Mr. Crowe. And all backs of heads.

Mr. Hubert. In the deposition of Crafard. I am sorry, I didn’t get your answer?

Mr. Crowe. I say all backs of heads. He kind of favors it.

Mr. Hubert. You are saying “he” and pointing. To whom are you pointing in the picture?

Mr. Crowe. I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. I mean describe it by way of position.

Mr. Crowe. Well, he is standing on stage.

Mr. Hubert. Is it correct to say he is almost in the middle of that picture?

Mr. Crowe. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And that the microphone is right behind him?

Mr. Crowe. Right behind him.

Mr. Hubert. He seems to have his sleeves halfway rolled up his arm?

Mr. Crowe. Yes; got a cigarette in his right hand.

Mr. Hubert. That he seems to be leaning over a bit?

Mr. Crowe. And leaning forward.

Mr. Hubert. Does that person resemble the person that you think you saw in the Carousel Club the week prior to the death of the President?

Mr. Crowe. No; I wouldn’t say that. I say he favors.

Mr. Hubert. Favors whom?

Mr. Crowe. Oswald. But I don’t recall him as being the one that I saw.

Mr. Hubert. You think the man you just talked about in Crafard Exhibit No. 5206 is not the man that you have been referring to as possibly Oswald in your previous statements to the FBI, to the press, and so forth?

Mr. Crowe. Right.

Mr. Hubert. But that he does bear some resemblance to him?

Mr. Crowe. Right. I could be wrong.

Mr. Hubert. Would you look at——

Mr. Crowe. Oh——

Mr. Hubert. Exhibit No. 5205 of the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and I ask you to examine that picture with the same purpose in mind.

Mr. Crowe. Yes, the second person in the foreground has some similarity to Oswald, doesn’t he?

Mr. Hubert. You are talking about the man who is just left of center in the lower quadrant of that photo?

Mr. Crowe. Right.

Mr. Hubert. As to whom there is pointing a little pen written arrow; is that correct?

Mr. Crowe. Right.

Mr. Hubert. What is your comment as to that man, with reference to the possibility that he is the man you saw a week before the President was shot, in the Carousel Club, and who took some part in your memory act?

Mr. Crowe. Well, I wouldn’t say that he was the man I saw.

Mr. Hubert. What comment do you have to make about him then?

Mr. Crowe. He does favor Oswald.

Mr. Hubert. I gather that your comment as to the man in the picture identified as Exhibit No. 5205 is substantially the same as your comment made with reference to the man in Crafard Exhibit No. 5206, is that correct?

Mr. Crowe. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Is it stronger or weaker, that is to say, do you think the resemblance to Oswald is stronger in one picture than it is in the other?

Mr. Crowe. I would say stronger in Crafard Exhibit No. 5205. He is not smiling.

Mr. Hubert. Now, as to the man you have pointed out in Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5205 and 5206, do you recall ever having seen him in the Carousel before?

Mr. Crowe. As to him personally, I couldn’t say for sure. The clothes are not familiar to me.

Mr. Hubert. How was the man dressed who took part in your memory act that you think might have been Oswald?

Mr. Crowe. I have no idea as to how he was dressed.

Mr. Hubert. Your statements concerning the possibility it was Oswald therefore was based entirely on the facial——

Mr. Crowe. The face alone.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, you never saw Oswald in person, that is to say unless it was Oswald in the club?

Mr. Crowe. Yes; I never met him.

Mr. Hubert. Your identification of the man in the club and the possibility he was Oswald is based, therefore, upon pictures which appeared in the paper and which the police exhibited to you, or the FBI, is that correct?

Mr. Crowe. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Do you have any recollection now or have you ever had any recollection at any time of the position of the person who might have been Oswald in your memory act relative to other people. Do you understand what I mean? You know he had to be in the first row. Have you any recollection or have you ever had any, as to whether he was center, the left, or the right or what?

Mr. Crowe. No; they have three runways running out from the stage, and the customers are seated along and around the runways, and they can either be alone or with somebody, you would never know, you had no way of telling.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t recollect whether the man who might have been Oswald was alone or was with someone else?

Mr. Crowe. No; you can’t tell the way they are seated.

Mr. Hubert. By the way, with reference to those four pictures identified as Exhibits Nos. 5212, 5221, 5205, and 5206 in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, are you able to state that you recognize those pictures generally as being the interior of the Carousel Club?

Mr. Crowe. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What is your present thought as to the possibility that the man that you had previously spoken about in the pictures identified as Exhibits Nos. 5205 and 5206 of the deposition of Crafard, may have been the man that you stated was a part of your memory act a week prior to the death of the President?

Mr. Crowe. It is a possibility.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think it is a greater possibility that from the pictures you have seen of Oswald that it was Oswald than that it was the man in the pictures, Exhibits Nos. 5205 and 5206?

Mr. Crowe. No; I wouldn’t say it was greater or any less.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, having seen the pictures of Oswald and having seen the pictures of the man in five, Exhibits Nos. 5206 and 5205, your thought is that it could have been either?

Mr. Crowe. Right.

Mr. Hubert. That you do not favor the identification of one over the other in terms of strength of identification?

Mr. Crowe. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you receive any sums of money or any kind of recompense for any story or appearance you may have made concerning this matter of your having possibly seen Oswald in the Carousel?

Mr. Crowe. Definitely not.

Mr. Hubert. Have you anything else, Mr. Crowe, that you would like to add?

Mr. Crowe. I was just taking a breath to say that the only reason why Oswald was mentioned and thought of was because of the possibility of being or that I thought he was one of a part of a series of coincidences. And the coincidences was the only thing that I had in mind.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Now, Mr. Crowe, neither I nor Mr. Griffin have ever interviewed you before the commencement of this deposition, is that correct?

Mr. Crowe. That is correct, yes.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say all of the examination or conversation or contact between us has been in this room and while the reporter was recording it, is that correct?

Mr. Crowe. Right.

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir, thank you very much.