And Number 6: “The animal experiments according to Otto proved: (a) the harmlessness and (b) the effectiveness or insufficient effectiveness.”

It stated previously, “the question of whether the animals showed a positive reaction is incomprehensible.” It stated also that animal experiments were carried out in the Behring Works. I submit this document to prove these were not vaccines which had not been previously tested, but were vaccines which had gone through the necessary preliminary and effective testing. Do you remember Kogon’s testimony that volunteers were used in the first two series of experiments? This testimony is on page 1,162 of the English transcript and on page 1,197 of the German transcript. If we base our assumptions on Ding’s diary, what two series of experiments must these have been for which volunteers were used?

A. If we base our statements on Ding’s diary we can only consider that these two series were, first of all, the preliminary series A which began on 5 January, and the first series of vaccine experiments with 145 persons regarding which the letter of 5 May 1942 that was previously read concerns itself. (Mrugowsky 10, Mrugowsky Ex. 20.) This series began on the next day, namely, on 6 January 1942. Any other experiments took place at a later date. Thus, when Kogon says that two series of experiments were carried out with volunteers, it can only be these two series of experiments.

Q. The experiments with which the letter of 5 May concerned itself were carried out on volunteers?

A. Apparently they were.

Q. Can you remember the communication of 11 April 1943 to the effect that the Mateska serum could no longer be used for experiments?

A. No, I don’t remember that and I consider it out of the question that I ever received any such communication. In all bacteriology, particularly in virology, there have been efforts for centuries to breed live germs which are no longer pathogenic (which do not infect human beings), in order to use these live germs for the manufacture of vaccine, namely vaccines with live attenuated strains, because these are a complete protection against the disease.

Q. In other words, you want to say that if you had received this communication, you would have seen to it that further experiments were carried out with this serum which was no longer so virulent?

A. I should not like to put it quite that way, but I should certainly have contacted the person whose institute had developed this strain, that was the Robert Koch Institute, Professor Gildemeister. However, I never spoke to him about this matter, and I should like to believe that he found nothing out about this matter because Gildemeister was one of our best virus researchers and was very familiar with the value such a really unique occurrence would have had.

Q. Did you see reports on the C and D series of experiments concerning the discovery of a safe method of infection, which were said to have taken place on the 11th and 13th of April?

A. No, I only found out about them here while looking through this document and I also saw that Ding does not assert that he sent a report on this to Berlin.

Q. On what further typhus experiment series did you then see reports?

A. In the diary of Block 46, Document NO-265, Ding says that only in the case of a few experimental series did he send reports to Berlin, namely the new experimental series, series I, II, VII, and VIII. I saw the report on series I, having received it from Grawitz, and as I said before, I rephrased it in another form, and it constitutes the document here submitted. Series II was carried out with the vaccine of Durand-Giroud of the Parisian Institute. That was the vaccine we intended to produce in our own institute. I really cannot recall ever having seen this report, but it is possible that I was informed of it by Grawitz, because I remember that Grawitz one day told me that he was convinced of the effectiveness of this vaccine and had no further objection to my suggestion that we manufacture the vaccine according to that process. The immunization in the course of this series was carried on by Ding between 19 August and 4 September 1942. From 10 September to 9 October he was in Paris with Professor Giroud to learn his method, and when he returned, he infected persons and sent the charts to Berlin on 20 November. It was probably then, toward the end of 1942, that Grawitz spoke to me about this matter.

Q. Ding was ordered to report to Giroud in Paris in the autumn of 1942, although, as you have stated, it was already decided at the end of 1941 to manufacture your own vaccines according to Giroud’s process. Now how do you explain this delay?

A. In the infections carried out in series I on 3 March 1942, Ding infected himself and fell seriously ill of typhus, despite his protective vaccination. Subsequently, he went on leave to recover, and when his health was somewhat restored, the business of going to Paris was discussed, which was only possible in the autumn.

Q. There were 4 specific fatalities in the control cases. Now you say that Grawitz probably discussed this matter with you. Did you do nothing about the fact that there had been fatalities?

A. When Grawitz spoke to me about this matter, [I] could do nothing because the series of experiments had already been concluded. But I do remember pretty clearly the situation in his office there. I remember that I brought up the matter of these 4 fatalities and told him that that would probably be the last series that he instigated. He answered that Himmler had ordered these experiments and that I had specifically objected to being included in the matter, and consequently no longer had any right to interfere in his business.

Q. The report on the typhus experimental series VII was concluded on 7 September 1943, and when finished a report was sent to Berlin on 9 September, according to Ding’s diary. Did you see this report?

A. No.

Q. But according to Ding’s work report, on the third of September, at a time when this series was completed but the report not yet written, you were in Buchenwald, according to this diary, visiting Ding. Did you talk about this matter then?

A. This entry is apparently correct. This was the period in which Block 50 was being prepared for the production of the vaccines. Ding writes in one of his documents that on the 10th of August this block was occupied and that work in producing the vaccine was begun. Kogon corroborated that in his testimony. Then 3 weeks after the beginning of this work, I went to Buchenwald to look over the laboratory and to see how his work was getting along. Kogon also described at some length how I inspected the institute, how I went into every room. It was a rather extensive inspection. I asked many questions, had many conversations with the inmates there; he further testified that I was with Ding in his room for only a very brief period of time, and that is also correct. In other words, at that time he did not submit any material to me.

Q. Did you know anything else about this experimental series VII?

A. This series was carried out with a vaccine similar to the Behring vaccine, manufactured by a different firm. I knew nothing of this experimental series.

Q. I submit to the Tribunal as the next document, Mrugowsky 12, and I put it in evidence as Mrugowsky Exhibit 25. This is an affidavit by Dr. Karl Ludwig Wolters of Hamburg, from the Asid Works. After the customary introduction the statement reads:

To figures 3 and 4 I simply draw the attention of the Tribunal. Figure 5 reads:

Then there is the usual conclusion and signature.

It can be seen from this that the vaccines for this series did not go via you from Ding; is that true?

A. Yes.

Q. According to Dr. Ding’s work report, which is Document NO-571, Prosecution Exhibit 285, you were present with him on the 3d of September in Buchenwald. Did you visit Block 46?

A. Yes. Ding invited me to take a look at Block 46. I went over there with him; and I remember quite well that I was led to the lower floor of a stone building, where there were a number of room-like partitions.

In the first room there were a few men playing cards; Ding told me that these were typhus convalescents who had survived typhus and who were to be released. I talked to them and found that their state of health was good and that the usual after-effects of typhus were no longer in existence. There were about five or six persons.

In the second room I saw about three patients lying in bed. I examined them and spoke to them. They had been transferred to Buchenwald a short time before from other camps. I think one of them was ill even when he arrived and the others had fallen ill shortly after their arrival in Buchenwald, and then were transferred to the typhus station. We are here concerned with people who fell ill spontaneously. According to Ding’s entry, there was no series of experiments carried on at that time.

Q. When visiting Buchenwald, didn’t you talk to Dr. Ding about his various series of typhus experiments?

A. No. At that time he had concluded the experimental series number VII with Asid vaccines as I can see from this document. This was a series which had a number of fatalities as its result. It is in line with Ding’s character that he did not speak to me about such a series of experiments, since he knew what my basic attitude towards this question was.

Q. Didn’t you discuss the typhus experiments with Ding on the occasion of your visit?

A. No. We didn’t discuss that matter. Our conversation merely dealt with the work carried on in Block 50 for the production of vaccine, which was really the purpose of my visit. I think we discussed a number of other hygienic questions concerning the vicinity of Buchenwald. I knew that there was a lack of water there from my previous activity; and I am sure that this was a subject which was discussed. I spent the evening with Ding in his flat where I met Dr. Hoven, the camp physician of Buchenwald, and his wife. Mrs. Ding was there, too. It is a matter of course that we didn’t discuss any technical questions in that circle. We certainly did not speak about any experiments on human beings.

In this connection I may perhaps say that this was the only time that I saw Hoven, who was allegedly Ding’s representative. This was ten days before Hoven had to end his activity as a camp physician in Buchenwald.

Q. Were you of the opinion that the typhus experimental series had been concluded?

A. Yes. I held that opinion, since it becomes evident from the documents here that the experimental series of that time had not led to any disease. The reason was that the strain coming from the Robert Koch Institute was not pathogenic. Ding did not say that he sent any reports to Berlin about it; and I, therefore, did not know anything about the way he worked in Buchenwald as far as it did not concern Block 50. I was of the opinion that after the second series of experiments, which was concluded at the end of 1942, no further experiments were planned.

Q. Well, if you believed that the typhus experiments had been concluded, the main activity of Dr. Ding would also have had to come to a conclusion?

A. No. That is not the case. Seen from my point of view, he was a bacteriologist; and I was anxiously awaiting the end of this special mission by Grawitz when Ding would again be fully at my disposal. At that time, in 1943, he had to carry out the preparations for vaccine production at Buchenwald. Therefore, the building work had to be supervised. Block 50 was a bacteriological institute furnished in a very modern style with a number of special pieces of equipment. Animals had to be obtained and accommodation made ready for them. There was not only one kind of animal but four different kinds. It was necessary to obtain fodder for them. Then a number of other organizational activities were necessary, which made Ding’s stay in Buchenwald absolutely necessary.

Q. Ding maintains that he sent a report about the series number VIII of the typhus experiments. Did you see that in Berlin? It was to have been sent on the 13th of June 1944.

A. Well, I heard about this series of experiments only by looking at the document here. I hadn’t seen or heard of it before.

Q. In the last entry of his diary, Ding says: “By order of the Chief Hygienist of the Waffen SS, dated the 12th of August 1944, it was to be established whether the course of a typhus illness can be mitigated by a typhus vaccine through intravenous or intramuscular injections.” Did you ever issue such an order?

A. No. I repeatedly pointed out that on the basis of the entire organizational set-up of the Medical Institute of the Waffen SS, neither as the Chief of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS, nor as the consulting hygienist of the Reich Physician SS and Police, could I order any experiments to be carried out on inmates because I had just as little influence on the medical service of the concentration camp as any other member of the Waffen SS. The matter with which we dealt was completely different. In the Crimea, in one of the hospitals in the East, I saw that the internist there was treating typhoid illnesses with injections of dead typhoid vaccines; and this procedure resulted in fever in many of the cases. At that time I remembered that literature dating back to the last World War, when a number of papers were written on the very same subject, showed that there were similar methods in the treatment of typhus and typhoid entailing the injection of vaccines.

During the course of these years when I had to deal closely with, typhus, I had developed a very definite opinion about the origin and development of typhus. I was, therefore, of the opinion that in the case of this illness, which clinically is very close to para-typhus, it would be quite feasible to make an experiment with that kind of treatment. The clinical symptoms of typhus and typhoid and stomach typhus are very similar. If a cure can be achieved with one method, it is to be assumed that all other types of illnesses of that nature could also be treated with success using that method. After my return, therefore, I established contact with a number of internes belonging to the hospitals which I knew, and wrote them that I had gathered, like experiences. I quoted passages from literature on that subject, and I said that our new experiences were the same as our old. I made the suggestion that the same method be used in the case of typhus by injecting with a protective typhus vaccine. One might consider that at that time we had just as little means of combating the severe disease as we have today. We, therefore, were medically justified in searching for new methods of treatment.

Q. Were these to be a series of experiments in the sense in which Ding carried them out?

A. That is completely out of the question. There was no reason to do that at all. In order to perform such an experiment, one could make tests on a typhus inflicted person using this method, and the worst that could happen would be that it would not help; but it certainly would not be necessary to make a certain series of experiments, and I certainly never gave any such order.

Q. Did you write to Ding in that sense?

A. At that time I informed my assistants about this therapy in the case of contagious diseases, and I am sure that it was a matter of course that, as epidemic specialists, we had to be informed about such a possibility, and in this manner we also received knowledge of it.

Q. You were saying that there would not have been justification for the experimental theory?

A. No.

Q. Well, did you or did you not order such a series of experiments from Dr. Ding?

A. Never, at no time.

Q. Are you of the opinion that Ding started these experiments on his own initiative?

A. That is possible. At any rate he did not receive orders from me, and I don’t know where else he could have received an order.

EXTRACTS FROM THE TESTIMONY OF DEFENSE WITNESS DR. EUGEN HAAGEN^[66]

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Dr. Tipp: Now, Professor, we are coming to the last and perhaps the most decisive count of the indictment—namely, the typhus experiments, as the prosecution calls them. Professor Schroeder and Professor Becker-Freyseng are charged with responsibility for such typhus experiments. There are two groups of them, according to the prosecution. On the one hand, those performed in Buchenwald concentration camp by Dr. Ding-Schuler and to a lesser extent by the defendant Dr. Hoven. The second group is alleged typhus experiments that you carried out in the Natzweiler concentration camp. Before we turn to the individual experiments, Professor, please tell the Tribunal what the hazards of typhus were during the war, especially in the years 1943, 1944, and 1945 when this problem became acute? Describe it only to the extent necessary in order to make your work understandable.

Witness Haagen: I shall try to be brief, but in order to understand this whole problem, one must be given some general information. Typhus is a very serious infectious disease which, in international medical circles, is included among the diseases which are of general danger, and it is consequently subject to international control. In cases of such hazardous and dangerous diseases, every state felt the moral obligation to do everything to prevent the outbreak of an epidemic because it is very difficult to combat and to eliminate the epidemic once it has broken out. This point of view was embraced, of course, not only by the government officials, but also by the responsible and interested scientists and physicians; because we all, of course, knew how prodigious the danger of typhus is, not only for the waging of the war but also for the civilian population of the entire world. Typhus is not only a war epidemic, but it has taken root in the country. It is also a peacetime epidemic which is enormously difficult to combat.

Presiding Judge Beals: Counsel, the Tribunal is quite aware that typhus is a very dangerous disease, that it is a great menace to humans, and that it was a menace to Germany during the last war, a great danger. I don’t think it is necessary to elaborate that again. We have heard it from several witnesses. It’s not denied.

Dr. Tipp: Witness, you heard the Tribunal’s wish. In the opinion of the Tribunal, the typhus danger for Germany has already been sufficiently proved. Please go on to the subject itself now. Perhaps you could speak of the usual preventive measures which are used against typhus, particularly vaccines.

Witness Haagen: There are, in general, two procedures to prevent typhus. One is what I might call the mechanical procedure, and the other the biological procedure. In the mechanical procedure we are concerned with combating the lice—I shall not go into that—but in the biological procedure we are interested in a protective vaccine. There are various vaccines available. Now, to get down to the crux of the matter, I must say that the typhus vaccines which are made from dead typhus virus do not provide absolute protection against the disease. They may lead to a milder form of the disease, but the infection itself is not prevented. Dead typhus vaccine, in other words, has no absolute anti-infectious effect, which, however, is the main point of any vaccine.

We developed a live vaccine, not on the basis of our own experiences and research, but we made use of the experiences of others. I should like to mention primarily the work of the French typhus research scientists, Blanc, Baltasar, and assistants Legrer and Lecolle. When vaccinating, a vaccine must be used which gives anti-infectious protection, and in general, in the case of virus diseases, successful vaccination is also achieved only with live virus. Let me mention the examples of smallpox, influenza, and yellow fever. In all these cases the vaccines are made from a live virus, but it is true that this virus is mutated, that is, it is no longer pathogenic to human beings. Its pathogenic characteristics have been suppressed and have disappeared, but the virus retains its anti-infectious efficacy. This change is accomplished in two ways, either by passing the virus through an animal—this is frequently done—and sometimes effects mutation in the virus and sometimes weakens the virus. I need not go into that; it would take up too much time.

Q. If I understand you correctly, Witness, your aim as a scientist was to develop a vaccine from live virus; in other words from a nonpathogenic virus which could not cause the disease, but which, nevertheless, had the antigenic effect, namely the effect of protecting the vaccinated person against contracting the disease later by infection. Is that so?

A. Yes. That is correct.

Q. Now, Witness, nobody is reproaching you for having produced vaccines, but it is said that you tested the effectiveness of your vaccines in a concentration camp. The prosecution called these virulent and you say they were nonpathogenic. At any rate, that is the way I understood the reproach of the prosecution; but first before you go into this, Witness, will you please tell the Court how it happened that you came into contact with the concentration camp Natzweiler in this matter?

A. The development of typhus throughout the war was such that typhus no longer became purely a war epidemic, but because of the many refugee camps, PW transports, and military transports, typhus was brought into Germany itself. In the overcrowded camps, especially with lack of sanitary installations, there was considerable danger from typhus, particularly where people assembled who came from the East. I have only to say that in the Auschwitz camp, for example (but also in many other prisoner camps in the east), there had already been extensive epidemics. Typhus pressed further and further into Germany. Every closed community such as a camp is, in itself, a great source of danger of typhus, not only the danger of an epidemic within the camp, but also an epidemic that spreads to the surrounding civilian population. Most of the concentration camp inmates worked outside the camp in factories and they came into contact with the civilian population, so you can easily see the danger of contagion. Now, in brief, the camp commandant and the camp doctor in the course of the spring of 1943 asked me whether they could have my assistance in combating this danger.

Q. Witness, a preparatory question first. Did you have any connection with the SS, with the concentration camp, as such?

A. I had no connection with the SS or with the concentration camps, or with any office in charge of them.

Q. Why did the camp commandant and the camp physician of the Natzweiler concentration camp turn specifically to you?

A. As director of the Hygiene Institute I had a rather large sphere of activity in Alsace, and, of course, it was known in the concentration camps, too, that my offices were in Strasbourg. For this reason the camp turned to me for help in many matters, including the obtaining of vaccines and help in the disinfection of the camp, and so forth, matters which perhaps we shall deal with later.

Q. You say then that the camp turned to you because you were the hygienist in the Alsatian district around Strasbourg?

A. That is correct.

Q. You said also that the camp commandant or doctor asked for your assistance?

A. Yes, that was an obvious thing for him to do, because I was right there in Strasbourg.

Q. You said further that it was roughly in the spring of 1943 that these requests for assistance were made to you; was there an epidemic in the camp already at that time, or why did they think they needed your help?

A. At that time there was no epidemic in the camp, but the general epidemiological situation was such that an outbreak of typhus was expected at any moment, especially since transports were continually coming from the East. These transports were infected with lice and contained people who were already infected with typhus, and other camps in the neighborhood had already had their first cases of typhus.

Q. Professor, what means did you have available to help these camp physicians? Please limit yourself, first of all your vaccines?

A. I have already said that there are various vaccines available made from dead virus, and also those made from live and attenuated virus. It was very difficult to procure virus at that time. The superior officers simply could not make the effective vaccines available, and in order to carry out any plans, all sorts of decrees and orders existed in Germany for the planning of systematic vaccination should the danger of typhus arise.

Q. Now, Witness, you have described your work in the field of vaccine production, namely, that of producing a live pathogenic virus; did you begin this developing and working on your own initiative, or did some other agency refer the problem to you?

A. Live typhus virus was being manufactured in foreign countries at that time in great quantities, particularly in France where they had had a great deal of experience with such live virus. I have already mentioned Blanc, Baltasar, Lecolle, and Legrer. During the war, protective vaccines were also made with such live virus in North Africa. There had already been millions of such vaccinations and, of course, this permitted experience to be gathered. The fact is that the French, who saw this great danger, also saw the necessity of such large-scale vaccines, and they had also had a few fatalities. As I said, we had to use a virus strain for these vaccinations which, it is true, was alive and still pathogenic to animals. In other words, a virulent virus, the pathogenic effect of which on human beings was suppressed to a large extent; and that is the essence of all live vaccine manufacture, and it must occupy the central position in our considerations here. You bring about such mutation only by passing the virus through animals. Every specialist knows that when the virus is passed through animals it is attenuated there more than by being cultured or bred, for instance, in chicken yolks or by being preserved in a vacuum, or at very low temperatures and only somewhat attenuated in strain.

Q. Witness, you still haven’t answered my question fully, that is, whether you carried out this work on your own initiative or on the basis of an order, directive, or assignment which came to you from elsewhere?

A. In developing this live typhus vaccine—

Presiding Judge Beals: Witness, you can answer that question in a very few words. Just answer the question propounded to you by your counsel.

A. This was a research assignment, as I just said, there was no military or other directive.

Dr. Tipp: Witness, you have already described this morning how research assignments were distributed, and you told us that, in general, the assignment was made on the application of a scientist for such an assignment; now what was the case here, did you work on this problem first and then receive an assignment or was there already an assignment in existence and did you then begin to work?

A. All this work was done entirely on my own initiative. I also saw to it that I got the necessary research assignment so that I could have the necessary funds for the work from the Reich Research Council, and then from the Medical Chief of the Luftwaffe. That is where I obtained my assignment.

Mr. Hardy: Your Honor, before we adjourn may I inquire from counsel how long the examination will continue, and how long other defense counsels will take in their examination of the witness Haagen?

Dr. Tipp: I have already said I will need roughly a day and a half. We have already eliminated some of the questions; I don’t know if I can finish this afternoon, but I shall not need so much time tomorrow morning. I cannot tell you how much time my other colleagues will need.

Mr. Hardy: Do I understand Dr. Tipp is going to take the rest of the day, in spite of the fact that we sit until 5 o’clock?

Dr. Tipp: I shall use all of today. Yes.

Presiding Judge Beals: Does any other defense counsel desire to examine this witness while he is on the stand?

Dr. Tipp: Dr. Nelte just tells me that he will need a quarter of an hour, and my colleague Krauss for Rostock, fifteen minutes.

Dr. Fritz: Mr. President, I cannot say definitely now how long I shall need because I do not know how many of the questions I intend to put to the witness will be made unnecessary by Dr. Tipp’s examination.

Presiding Judge Beals: The Tribunal is only asking for an estimate.

Dr. Fritz: One hour.

Presiding Judge Beals: Counsel, during the noon recess will you instruct your witness to answer your questions directly and simply without expostulating on matters about which, while scientific and important, the Tribunal has already been advised. Kindly instruct him and explain to him how to answer these questions.

Dr. Tipp: Professor, before the recess you said that you began your work in the field of typhus on your own initiative, and that in the course of this work you obtained research assignments from the Medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe as well as the Reich Research Counsel; now I ask you, in your applications made before the various assignments were issued, were any details given about the work which you planned to carry out or the work which you had already carried out?

Witness Haagen: No details were given, of course, merely the problem as such was dealt with.

Q. You have already described to the Tribunal your work on this problem; it was to find a vaccine produced from live virus, a virus no longer pathogenic to human beings which, however, contained the qualities of the virus.

A. Yes. That is true. Our work was limited to the development of a live vaccine, and this work was based on the great experiences of foreign scientists, especially the French scientist Blanc; the technical side was always carried out in animal experiments.

Q. Now, Witness, did you succeed in finding a vaccine of the type described?

A. Yes. We did succeed in developing such a vaccine from a so-called murine typhus virus strain, that is, from rat typhus. The weakening was brought about through animal experiments, through cultivation in chicken eggs, and thirdly through a conservation process.

Q. Was this vaccine then tested for its effectiveness and if so, how?

A. Yes. The vaccine was tested for its effectiveness. First, of course, by animal experiments for its immunizing qualities. After this quality had been proved, the first vaccinations were undertaken in order to test the effectiveness and the tolerance on human beings. This was done on volunteers.

Q. Where did you get these volunteers, Professor?

A. First of all I served myself, then the members of my institute and a number of students from the university.

Q. Now, will you please tell us the purpose of these experiments?

A. When one has produced a new vaccine one must test not only its effectiveness, but also its tolerability. This can only be done on human beings; animal experiments are not sufficient. At a certain stage it always becomes necessary to test it on human beings.

Q. In these vaccinations on members of the institute and students, you tested the tolerability of the vaccine; the immunizing effect of the vaccine, if I understood you correctly, could not be proved by these experiments?

A. Yes. The immunizing effect can also be determined. One merely needs to make the Weil-Felix reaction, which has been mentioned in this trial. That is, to ascertain whether the blood serum already contains protective bodies against the typhus germ. This test (I mention this because mistakes have been made here) is used not only to diagnose the disease, but also, since it is a definite immunity reaction, to find the protective bodies after vaccination.

Q. We will come back to that later, Witness. Now when did you achieve your aim, when did you have a vaccine of the type described, and when did you develop it far enough to be used?

A. In the spring of 1943.

Q. And when was this vaccine first actually used on a large scale, or when was it first used at all?

A. The first vaccinations were carried out in May 1943 in the Schirmeck internment camp, which belonged to the Natzweiler concentration camp. The vaccinations were performed on persons in special danger.

Q. This morning, Witness, you mentioned the request of a camp doctor of the Natzweiler concentration camp, and Schirmeck was no doubt under him; may I ask whether these Schirmeck vaccinations go back to the request of the camp physician?

A. I do not quite understand your question.

Q. Please tell me whether the vaccinations performed in Schirmeck originated with the request of the camp physician?

A. Yes. Schirmeck and Natzweiler belong together. My vaccinations there were in connection with all the work of the camp.

Q. Then you used this vaccine for the first time in May 1943 in Schirmeck. How many persons did you vaccinate?

A. Twenty-eight persons were vaccinated altogether.

Q. Did you have any influence on the selection of these persons; that is, did you select these persons, or who selected them?

A. I did not have any direct influence on the selection of these persons, only to the extent that I told the camp administrator and the camp doctor that we could only vaccinate people who were in a more or less good state of health, since if this were not the case it would not correspond to our German vaccination laws. To that extent I did have some influence.

The selection was made according to the point of view that persons were selected who were in special danger of typhus, persons who were in the so-called “east block” of the camp. New transports were always coming from the East, lice infected, for the most part, so that one could count on a considerable typhus danger. In this part of the camp the danger was greater than in those parts of the camp, housing Germans and Alsatians who did not come from the East.

Q. You said, Witness, the persons were selected from the group of prisoners in special danger of contracting typhus. You just mentioned the east block. Can you tell us what nationality these persons were?

A. As far as I can remember they were of various nationalities. There were quite a number of them who spoke German and one could converse with them easily.

Q. Now, Witness, I should like to ask you to describe how these vaccinations were carried out. Perhaps a preliminary question first. Why did you vaccinate only 28 persons? Why did you not vaccinate all the inmates of the camp there?

A. At first I could only produce the vaccine in very small quantities. My laboratory facilities were very limited. If I had wanted to vaccinate a whole camp I would have had to have a production workshop. That is why we only vaccinated a small number of people.

Q. Now, Professor, please describe how the vaccinations were performed.

A. Vaccinations were performed on 28 persons altogether, in several groups. The first vaccination was of eight persons. They were given one injection of 0.5 cc. of the vaccine into the breast muscle in the customary manner. The second group consisted of 20 persons, divided into two subgroups of ten each. The first group—let’s call this group A—was also given 0.5 cc. of the vaccine intramuscularly. Subgroup B, the last ten persons, were first given a vaccination of 0.5 cc. of a dead typhus vaccine produced in the Robert Koch Institute. Then, eight days later, there was a second vaccination with a live vaccine, again 0.5 cc. intramuscularly. I should like to say that the first vaccination with the dead vaccine, which I have just mentioned, was performed for two reasons: First of all, in order to be able to see whether this preliminary examination produced more protective bodies; and, in the second place, to see whether this preliminary examination with dead vaccine might reduce the reactions of the living vaccine.

At the same time, I carried out protective vaccinations on persons outside the camp, on volunteers. They were again performed in such a way that there were three injections this time: the first, 0.25 cc., the second, 0.25 cc., and the third injection 0.5 cc. of the live vaccine.

Q. The Court will be especially interested, Witness, in the reactions of the persons after this vaccination. Can you tell us that?

A. In the first group of eight persons who were given 0.5 cc. of the living vaccine only once, three had a reaction consisting of a short fever of over 39 degrees. The rest of the persons, however, had no reaction.

In the second group, among the ten persons in group A, there were no noticeable reactions. In the other group there were very negligible symptoms, in some cases only a headache and depression. Typical symptoms of typhus, brain symptoms or vessel symptoms, and other symptoms, did not appear in any case.

The same was true of the third group. Here again there was no reaction. I must say in this connection that I used a vaccine produced from dead typhus virus. I must point that out because later, in Natzweiler, I used the classic epidemic or louse typhus virus vaccine.

Q. Professor, after the vaccination did you watch the well-being of the persons vaccinated?

A. Yes, of course. After the vaccination I was frequently in the camp. I looked at the persons who had been vaccinated and was shown their temperature charts. After four weeks a final blood sample was taken to perform the Weil-Felix reaction in order to see what degree of immunity they had developed.

Q. * * * Were there any deaths in the course of these vaccinations at Schirmeck?

A. No. There were no deaths from the vaccinations at Schirmeck.

Q. Witness, your testimony is in contradiction to the testimony of a prosecution witness whom we heard here. This was George Hirtz, who testified here on the 8th of January. His testimony is on page 1310 of the German and page 1293 of the English record. Hirtz said that at Schirmeck you injected 20 to 25 persons and during the following days these people developed a high temperature. The temperature is said to have started after 36 to 48 hours, and two of these people died. The witness also said you had vaccinated him, the head of the camp, and the Kapo in the sick bay. Will you explain the differences between your testimony and the testimony of Hirtz?

A. It is true that these three people, the camp head, the Kapo [inmate trusty], and the nurse, that was Hirtz, were vaccinated with the customary vaccine on the basis of an order to the effect that if there was any danger of typhus, the camp personnel had to be vaccinated regularly against this disease. Now, the personnel was in much less danger than the inmates themselves; so in order to help the camp doctor, I supplied the vaccine and vaccinated these three persons, but I reserved the live vaccine for the persons who were in real danger. Those were the reasons why these seeming distinctions were made.

Q. The witness Hirtz also testified that he did not medically examine these 20 people before they were vaccinated. Is that correct?

A. When the prisoners came to the camp they were carefully examined by the camp doctor. This was necessary in the interest of preventing disease in the camp. Therefore, here I merely had to observe whether they were free from external symptoms of disease and to determine how strong they were.

Q. Then if I understand you correctly, you say that the medical examination was performed by the camp doctor, who made them available to you for vaccination?

A. Yes, the camp doctor and the head of the camp, together.

Q. Now, Professor, is the statement of the witness Hirtz correct to the effect that after 36 to 48 hours these persons had a temperature of up to 40° Centigrade, 104° Fahrenheit?

A. I have already said that aside from the first group there was no special reaction. Hirtz himself did not know the first group, he says so himself. In the second group, I have just testified that there were no temperature reactions or any other reaction.

Q. But you said, Witness—oh, that was the first group.

A. Yes. And even here the reactions were quite the usual ones which occur in other vaccinations, too.

Q. But Hirtz also says that after the temperature—seven to eight days, the persons developed some kind of disturbance and they had some impediment in their speech and in three or four cases they stuttered. Do you know anything about that?

A. When I visited these persons I did not observe any such symptoms. None of them complained, and I am sure that if any one found that he had developed such symptoms he would immediately have gone to the doctor. Everyone was interested in getting rid of these symptoms. I did not observe any disturbances or stuttering. If Hirtz had seen them at the time, I am convinced he would have reported them to me. He was the nurse for these persons and was responsible for them; I cannot imagine that he would have served the interests of these prisoners by keeping these things secret.

Q. You say that you did not observe such symptoms nor did Hirtz report them to you. Now, Witness, Hirtz also said that after two days two of these experimental subjects, as he calls them, or vaccinated persons, as you call them, died. Did you observe this, Witness?

A. I have already said that in the smaller experimental group no one died, because I am sure I would have noticed it when I visited these persons who had been vaccinated. I would certainly have ordered an autopsy in the case of such deaths to determine when the person died. Not only would I have ordered or carried out this autopsy, but the camp administration would have ordered it. People might think that these persons perhaps died of typhus. I must say that after a two-day incubation period—that was the period between inoculation and death—no one ever died of typhus. The shortest time for typhus deaths, that is the incubation period plus length of disease, is ten days to fourteen days. And these early deaths are supposed to be cases with a high pathogenic virus originating directly from human beings. For this reason alone it is quite impossible.

Q. Witness, you said that in such cases you would doubtless have had an autopsy performed. You said you heard nothing about the deaths, and that, therefore, there was no autopsy; is that right?

A. Yes. That is correct.

Q. I should like to remind the Tribunal of the testimony of Hirtz. (Tr. p. 1298.) He said that he immediately wrapped the bodies in paper and had them burned in the crematorium at Natzweiler. Not even the prosecution witness was able to say, or perhaps did not want to say, how Professor Haagen reacted to these deaths. Now one more question about this witness Hirtz. Here on the witness stand Hirtz was asked, “Now Witness, you realized that these experiments performed on the 20 to 25 persons were experiments for the determination of typhus in connection with typhus disease?” A. “Yes, I had not the slightest doubt about it. I have fifteen years of practice behind me.” I do not know, Witness, what this testimony means. Perhaps I am not enough of a specialist to judge, but I may assume that you can explain what the content of these statements is.

A. I can only say that I cannot understand Mr. Hirtz’ statement at all. I have no idea what experiments to determine typhus in connection with this disease are supposed to be. First of all, there were no experiments to determine typhus since there was no typhus. And I don’t know any method for performing experiments on human beings to determine typhus. If by experiments, one means the removal of blood in the Weil-Felix reaction, that is something else, but that is not what he is talking about here. As reason for his expert knowledge the witness states that he has been a pharmacist for 15 years. That he has such a long practice behind him and so considers himself an expert in the field of contagious diseases. I can’t quite understand that either. But I think one can expect that from a pharmacist—after all, pharmacists do sell vaccines for public diseases in pharmacies—one would really expect him to know what vaccine reactions are and what a real disease is. And then in the first group where a reaction did appear, he didn’t know that group at all.

Q. You have already said, Witness, something about Mr. Hirtz’ testimony that the prisoner Atloff told him about what Mr. Hirtz described was the second experiment. It seems to me that supports your statement that Mr. Hirtz knew nothing about the first group, that is the eight persons. Can you tell us anything else, Professor, to explain the contradiction between your testimony and that of Mr. Hirtz?

A. Hirtz speaks only of one injection, not of two. The vaccinated persons whom he took care of all had two injections at intervals of several days. If he had really been interested in the vaccination, he must have known that two injections were performed. That is one point. Then he says that the needles were not changed. He seems to have overlooked something there again; that for every injection a new injection needle was used which was brought from Strasbourg already sterilized, and that the technical assistant changed them. Anybody who knows anything about scientific work knows that in such important work, one does not use the same needle for several persons, quite aside from the fact that this would not be in accordance with one of the most elementary demands of asepsis. Here again he probably didn’t observe very carefully.

Q. Now, Professor, we are interested in the question of whether in the camp of Schirmeck, you wanted to produce typhus through artificial injection of pathogenic virus. Did you perform such experiments at Schirmeck?

A. No. No such experiments were performed. I don’t know what the purpose would have been.

Q. Then if I may sum up, Professor, you were introducing a vaccine into practice after it had already been tested in animal experiments, in self-experiments, and in experiments on volunteers. But experiments such as I have just described were not performed at Schirmeck, is that correct?

A. Yes. That is correct. We were merely introducing a vaccine which was already being used on a large scale in other countries. Perhaps I may add that at first I intended to perform further vaccinations in the Schirmeck camp in order to protect this camp as far as possible, but that in the course of the next month, I realized that the Natzweiler camp was entirely different in its whole structure and that there was much greater danger of typhus in this camp. Therefore, I shifted my interest from Schirmeck to Natzweiler.

Q. Now before we go on to the work at Natzweiler, Witness, I should like to clarify the following point with you. Mr. Hirtz testified here that the prisoners used for vaccination were not volunteers; but you say, Professor, that your point of view is that experimental subjects should be volunteers. Can you please clearly answer this question and explain the points of view which are important in your opinion in vaccinations particularly?

A. The prisoners whom we vaccinated were not volunteers. I would like to say the following on that point: As I have already said, I share with most scientists the point of view that the prerequisite for any experiment is the self-experiment. This was not merely a theory in my case. Everyone who knows my work or saw my work knows that I performed a number of self-experiments and contracted a number of infections. I need not go into that now, but of course I tested all vaccines on myself. If we dispensed with the element of voluntariness in this present case, I must state that according to our rules and laws in Germany, vaccinations are ordered wherever there is danger of an epidemic. This situation existed in Schirmeck and Natzweiler. There was a decree for this camp from the SS-WVHA, and decrees were sent out by the chief doctor of concentration camps. Our vaccinations were performed within these legal regulations. In the records of trial, I find again and again the point of view that I had taken poor, helpless prisoners and treated them with murderous germs. But if one knows my work well, one can see that, on the contrary, I was combating these diseases. There can be no question of any criminal experiments here. I want to object very definitely to being called a criminal when I was merely fighting diseases.

Q. Well, Professor, you say that in this case you dispensed with volunteers because it was not an experiment, but rather a vaccination, and because it is your point of view that for vaccinations it is legally permissible to make them compulsory—that you were merely carrying out a legal measure under international law?

A. Yes. This was a vaccination with a vaccine which was already being used elsewhere in the world within the framework of general vaccinations carried out on the basis of the existing regulations.

Q. When did you begin your work in Natzweiler proper?

A. It was my intention to begin vaccination in the Natzweiler camp in the summer of 1943, but then unexpected difficulties arose which I must go into—I think they are of significance for this trial. Professor Hirt, whose name I believe has been mentioned here repeatedly, the director of the Anatomical Institute in Strasbourg, was a member of the SS and a research worker of the Ahnenerbe. As an SS officer he had discovered through the camp that I wanted to perform vaccinations there. He then intervened because he thought that if persons outside the SS or the WVHA wanted to work in the camp in some form or other we had to have approval for this, quite aside from the fact that I had been asked to perform these vaccinations, etc. Professor Hirt told the camp doctor and myself that he was ready to get this approval and asked me to make a request to this effect to the Institute for Military Scientific Research. I had no connection with the SS or any suborganization of the SS, nor did I know the inner organization of the SS. The application was made in the summer of 1943. I cannot remember the wording of the application exactly, but Hirt sent it on to the agency in question. I only know that the application said that I had asked for permission to vaccinate a certain number of camp inmates. One had to make a limitation because I could only produce the vaccine in small quantities since the technical conditions did not yet exist at the institute for large-scale production. In this letter to Hirt, I pointed out that there was no danger in vaccination with the new vaccine, but that we had to expect a more or less strong reaction, especially a temperature reaction in accordance with the variances in the individuals. I also pointed out that the people to be vaccinated had to be in good physical condition, so that they should be in more or less the same physical condition as our soldiers. I said this in order to conform with the general vaccination regulations. After some time I received an announcement from the Institute for Military Scientific Research to the effect that my request would be granted.

Q. Professor, will you please look at Document NO-120, which is Prosecution Exhibit 297. It is a letter from the Reich Leader SS, Personal Staff, Institute for Military Scientific Research, dated 30 September 1943. It is signed by Sievers, and it is addressed to the Director of the Institute for Hygiene of the Reich University, Strasbourg. Herr Sievers writes: