3. At the conference of May 1943, which I described on page 12 of my affidavit (last paragraph) the following officials were present to the best of my recollection: Dr. Paul Rostock as chairman of the conference; Dr. Siegfried Handloser, who was then the Chief of the Medical Service of the German Armed Forces, who had sent out the invitations to the meeting; Professor Karl Brandt, who sat in the center of the front row; Dr. Leonardo D. Conti, the Reich Health Leader; Professor Dr. Sauerbruch; Dr. Frey; and Professor Heubner. The Medical Service of the Luftwaffe was represented by Dr. Hippke, who was the Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe; and by Dr. Oskar Schroeder. The Medical Service of the Waffen SS was represented by its chief, Dr. Karl Genzken. Dr. Helmut Poppendick, who was the Chief of Staff of the Reich Physician SS and Police, and Dr. Grawitz were also present.
5. It was made perfectly clear during the speeches made by Dr. Gebhardt and myself that the experiments were conducted on inmates of a concentration camp.
6. Six months after this, the 10th anniversary of the hospital at Hohenlychen was celebrated. Dr. Karl Brandt, Dr. Siegfried Handloser, Dr. Leonardo D. Conti, and Professor Dr. Sauerbruch were invited to the celebrations.
7. When the sulfanilamide experiments started, I was told by Professor Gebhardt, my military and medical superior, that these experiments were being carried out by order of the Chief of the Medical Office of the Wehrmacht and the Chief of the State Medical Office, with the initial order from Hitler, and I must therefore carry out these orders.
8. Dr. Herta Oberheuser and Dr. Schiedlausky assisted me in the sulfanilamide experiments.
9. As a result of these experiments, three people died.
[Signed] Fritz Ernst Fischer
I only heard of the sulfanilamide experiments on human beings at Ravensbrueck after their conclusion through the public report made by Professor Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer before the Third Conference East of Consultant Specialists of 24 and 26 May 1943 at the Military Medical Academy, Berlin. I attended this conference as Stabsarzt in the army from a military reserve hospital in Berlin. Later on I read a report in the directives. Professor Dr. Gebhardt did not speak to us about this point subsequently. On the other hand, the existence of this sulfanilamide experiment was known and was not kept secret, although even foreigners were continuously to be found among the assistants, as, for instance, the Swiss surgeon, Dr. Meyer, during my time.
Directives for the chemo-therapy of wound infections
The treatment of war wounds with sulfanilamide preparations in order to combat wound infections seems to have prospects. In stock now in the medical stores are: prontalbin-marfanil powder, prontosil, neo-uleron-albucid, eubasinum, sulfapyridine-cibazol, and eleudron pills.
Traumatic tetanus cannot be prevented by these preparations; tetanus antitoxin must therefore be given as usual.
Chemotherapeutics are not a safe precaution against gas oedemata. The collection of further experiences in this field is especially desirable.
When treating war wounds, an operative arrangement of the wound must first be made by removing the dead tissue and opening all cavities of the wound. Then the remedy is applied with a powder distributor or with dredging boxes, in dosages of from 5-20 grams according to the size of the wound. This is repeated whenever a change of dressing is necessary. Independently of the change of dressing, and spread evenly over the day, the patient is given 8 grams on the first day, 6 grams on the second day, 5 grams on the third day and on each of the fourth, fifth, and sixth days, 4 grams of sulfanilamide preparations per os (if necessary, rectal or intravenous injections). Then the drug treatment is discontinued and started again if necessary. The earlier this treatment is begun the better are its chances.
Local treatment with the available sulfanilamide powders together with an internal treatment with albucid, cibazol, eleudron, eubasinum, globucid (particularly for gas oedema), marfanil-prontalbin, protosil is suggested.
If, in rare cases, secondary reactions occur such as nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, buzzing in the ears, headaches, skin rashes, or icterus, these remedies must be discontinued at once. A blood transfusion may be useful.
5. SS Gruppenfuehrer and Major General, Professor Gebhardt, and F. Fischer.
Special Experiments on Sulfanilamide Treatment
CONCLUSIONS
“1. The development of suppuration on the soft parts caused by bacteriae cannot be prevented, even if sulfanilamides are applied immediately, locally, or internally.
“2. It could not be proved that the course of an inflammatory illness caused by aerobic organisms on abscesses and phlegmons of the limbs was influenced by sulfanilamides. We were of the impression that combined gas gangrene therapy took a milder course under the influence of sulfanilamides.
“3. Surgical measures are indispensable for a successful treatment of inflammations.”
Additional Remarks
The sprinkling of sulfanilamide powder on wounds can be injurious, if, by so doing, the fundamentals of surgery are infringed, if, for instance, the powder basis is not dissolved by the tissue fluids, and if the discharge of secretions is hampered by coagulation. The wounds treated with sulfanilamide powder show a slight tendency to exudation.
Hypothesis of Functions
The inflammation on the mesodermal soft parts shows a tendency towards necrosis at an early stage. The necrosis is the seat of the bacterial culture. Its surroundings show thrombosed vessels. Access to it by chemo-therapeutic reagents is very difficult.
Directives for the Application of Sulfanilamides
Experiments (Gebhardt-Fischer) showed the following results: Even the immediate internal and external application of sulfanilamide preparations cannot prevent a suppuration of the soft parts due to ordinary suppurative organisms. It could not be proved that the course of the inflammatory disease caused by anaerobions is influenced by sulfanilamides. The sulfanilamides seemed to have an easing effect on the course of combined gangrene therapy.
Disorders caused by sulfanilamides (Randerath) are relatively rare. They occur directly as liver disorders including acute yellow liver atrophy, as kidney disorders, and as agranulocytosis. Therefore, as far as is possible under front-line conditions, the white and red blood count should be controlled. The decrease of the body temperature caused by an infection of the central regulatory system may be looked upon as an indirect disorder, so that the temperature curve permits no conclusions as to the development of the wound infection. Furthermore, local powder treatment may lead to an occasional increase in the depth of the wound infection. Direct injury to the tissue at the spot where the preparations were applied was not observed.
The endolumbal application of the sulfanilamides (Mueller) must also be rejected for the treatment of meningitis, since it leads to serious disturbances in the region of the spinal cord and may result in paralysis.
The clinical discourse (Frey) emphasized the decrease of optimistic and the increase of critical opinions. The clinical doctor considers the principal disorders to be anorexia, nausea, and increasing exhaustion. Early application in the wound itself is essential for the efficacy. The enteral or parenteral inducing of sulfanilamide drugs cannot prevent wound infections, but can favorably influence its course.
The following rules for practice therefore result: All surface wounds, that is, grazing shot wounds, sulcus-shaped wounds and large gaping wounds of the soft parts should be sprinkled as soon as possible with sulfanilamide powder. The powder treatment is of no use if the depths of the wound are not reached. It is ineffective to powder the small wounds caused by the penetration and exit of the bullet. The powdering of the skin is senseless and may cause eczema. Deeper wounds must be treated in the quickest and most thorough manner. After this, the wound can be additionally treated with sulfanilamide powder which must reach the deepest cavities. It is not advisable to powder granulating wounds.
If the powder treatment cannot be applied during the first hours or does not seem to suffice, a pororal application of sulfanilamides should take its place or be performed supplementarily. Front-line conditions will not always allow intravenous injections. According to the danger of a wound infection, the wound should be treated for a short time with large doses of sulfanilamides (6-10 grams during 3-4 days, not more than a total of 50 grams). On the whole, small doses are insufficient and therefore have no influence on the course of an infection, but if applied too long they may be injurious. Suitable preparations are preferably eleudron, cibazol, and globucide. If possible, the treatment should be applied by a medical officer.
Wounds endangered by gas oedema—and this means all large and deep muscle wounds—should, in addition to the local and oral treatment with sulfanilamide, also be treated with gangrene serum. At subsequent operations, for example resection of the ribs, empyema of the chest, secondary sutures, and late amputations, the new wound caused by the operation may be powdered adequately with sulfanilamides when bleeding has stopped.
The thoroughness of the surgical wound treatment should in no way be lessened even by the additional application of sulfanilamides.
Abdominal gunshot wounds can also be treated with sulfanilamide powder (about one tablespoon) or the sulfanilamide may be induced into the abdominal cavity in the form of an emulsion.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Mr. Hardy: Witness, what is your full name?
Witness Dzido: Jadwiga Dzido.
Q. Do you spell that J-a-d-w-i-g-a, last name spelled D-z-i-d-o?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, you were born on 26 January 1918?
A. Yes.
Q. You are a citizen of Poland?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you come here to Nuernberg voluntarily to testify?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you kindly tell the Tribunal your present home address?
A. Warsaw, Garnoslonska 14.
Q. Witness, are you married?
A. No.
Q. Are your parents living?
A. No.
Q. What education have you received?
A. I finished elementary school and high school at Warsaw. In 1937 I started to study pharmacology at the University of Warsaw.
Q. Did you graduate from the University in Warsaw?
A. No.
Q. What did you do after you had finished school in the University of Warsaw?
A. I started studying pharmacology at the University, and then when I was studying the second year, the war broke out.
Q. What did you do after the war broke out?
A. In 1939 I was working in a pharmacy during the holidays.
Q. Were you a member of the Resistance Movement?
A. In the autumn of 1940 I entered the Resistance Underground.
Q. What did you do in the Resistance Movement?
A. I was a messenger.
Q. Then were you later captured by the Gestapo and placed under arrest?
A. I was arrested by the Gestapo on 28 March 1941.
Q. What happened to you after your arrest by the Gestapo?
A. I was interrogated by the Gestapo in Lublin, Lukow, and Radzin.
Q. And what happened after that?
A. In Lublin, I was beaten while naked.
Q. Did you then receive any further treatment from the Gestapo, or were you released?
A. I stayed in Lublin 6 weeks in the cellar of the Gestapo building.
Q. Then were you sent to the Ravensbrueck concentration camp?
A. On 23 September 1941, I was transported to the Ravensbrueck concentration camp.
Q. Were you told why you were sent to the concentration camp in Ravensbrueck?
A. No, I was not told.
Q. Were you ever given a trial in any German court?
A. Never.
Q. Who sent you to Ravensbrueck concentration camp?
A. All the prisoners in the prison at Lublin were sent there, and I went with them.
Q. Now will you tell the Court, Miss Dzido, in your own words what happened to you after you arrived at Ravensbrueck?
A. When I arrived in the Ravensbrueck concentration camp, I thought that I would stay there till the end of the war. The living conditions in the prison were such that we could not live there any longer. In the camp we had to work, but in the camp it was not so dirty, and there were not so many lice as used to be in the prison.
Q. What work did you do in the camp, Witness?
A. I did physical work inside or outside the camp.
Q. Were you ever operated on in the Ravensbrueck concentration camp?
A. I was operated on in November 1942.
Q. Will you kindly explain the circumstances of this operation to the Tribunal?
A. In 1942 great hunger and terror reigned in the camp. The Germans were at the zenith of their power. You could see haughtiness and pride on the face of every SS woman. We were told every day that we were nothing but numbers, that we had to forget that we were human beings, that we had nobody to think of us, that we would never return to our country, that we were slaves, and that we had only to work. We were not allowed to smile, to cry, or to pray. We were not allowed to defend ourselves when we were beaten. There was no hope of going back to my country.
Q. Now, Witness, did you say that you were operated on in the Ravensbrueck concentration camp on 22 November 1942? [See photographs, pp. 898-908.]
A. Yes.
Q. Now, on 22 November 1942, the day of this operation, will you kindly tell the Tribunal all that happened during that time?
A. That day the policewoman, camp policewoman, came with a piece of paper where my name was written down. The policewoman told us to follow her. When I asked her where we were going, she told me that she didn’t know. She took us to the hospital. I didn’t know what was going to happen to me. It might have been an execution, transport for work, or operation.
Dr. Oberheuser appeared and told me to undress and examined me. Then I was X-rayed. I stayed in the hospital. My dress was taken away from me. I was operated on 22 November 1942 in the morning. A German nurse came, shaved my legs, and gave me something to drink. When I asked her what she was going to do with me she did not give me any answer. In the afternoon I was taken to the operating room on a small hospital trolley. I must have been very exhausted and tired and that is why I don’t remember whether I got an injection or whether a mask was put on my face. I didn’t see the operating room.
When I came back I remember that I had no wound on my leg, but a trace of a sting. From that time I don’t remember anything till January. I learned from my comrades who lived in the same room that my leg had been operated on. I remember what was going on in January, and I know that the dressings had been changed several times.
Q. Witness, do you know who performed the operation upon your leg?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Now, you say that you had dressings changed. Who changed the dressings on your leg?
A. The dressings were changed by Drs. Oberheuser, Rosenthal, and Schiedlausky.
Q. Did you suffer a great deal while these dressings were being changed?
A. Yes, very much.
Q. Witness, will you step down from the witness box and walk over to the defendants’ dock and see if you can recognize anyone in that dock as being at Ravensbrueck concentration camp during the period and during the time that you were operated on?
A. (Witness points.)
Q. Will you point to the person again that you recognized, Witness?
A. (Witness points.)
Q. And who is that, Witness?
A. Dr. Oberheuser.
Mr. Hardy: May we request that the record so show that the witness has identified the defendant Oberheuser?
Presiding Judge Beals: The record will so show.
Mr. Hardy: Do you recognize anyone else in that dock, Witness?
Witness Dzido: Yes.
Q. Point out who else you recognize, Witness?
A. (Witness points.)
Q. Who is that, Witness?
A. This man I saw only once in the camp.
Q. Do you know who that man is, Witness?
A. I know.
Q. Who is that man, Witness?
A. Dr. Fischer.
Mr. Hardy: Will the record so show that the witness has properly identified the defendant Fischer as being at the Ravensbrueck concentration camp?
Presiding Judge Beals: The record will so show.
Mr. Hardy: Witness, do you have any other details to tell the Tribunal about your operation?
Witness Dzido: (No answer.)
Q. Witness, how many times were you operated on?
A. Once.
Q. When Dr. Oberheuser attended you, was she gentle in her treatment toward you?
A. She was not bad.
Q. Witness, have you ever heard of a person named Binz in the Ravensbrueck concentration camp?
A. I know her very well.
Q. Do you remember what time your friends were called to be operated on in August of 1943?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you kindly tell the Tribunal some of the details there and the names of the persons who were to be operated on?
A. In the spring of 1943 the operations were stopped. We thought that we could live like that till the end of the war. On the 15th of August a policewoman came and called ten girls. When she was asked what for, she answered that we were going to be sent to work. We knew very well that all prisoners belonging to our transport were not allowed to work outside the camp. The chief of the block where we were living was forbidden under capital punishment to let us outside the camp. That’s why we know that it was not true. We didn’t want to let our comrades out of the block. The policewoman came, and the assistants, the overseers, and with them Binz. We were driven out of the block into the street. We stood there in line 10 at a time and Binz herself read off the names of 10 girls. When they refused to go because they were afraid of a new operation and were not willing to undergo a new operation, she herself gave her word of honor that it was not going to be an operation and she told them to follow her.
We remained standing before the block. Then several minutes later our comrades ran to us and told us that SS men have been called for in order to surround them. The camp police arrived and drove our comrades out of the line. We were locked in the block. The shutters were closed. We were 3 days without any food and without any fresh air. We were not given parcels that arrived in the camp at that time. The first day the camp commandant and Binz came and made a speech. The camp commandant said that there had never been a revolt in the camp and that this revolt must be punished. She believed that we would reform and that we would never repeat it. If it were to happen again, she had SS people with weapons. My comrade, who knew German, answered that we were not revolting, that we didn’t want to be operated on because five of us died after the operation and because six had been shot down after having suffered so much. Then Binz replied: “Death is victory. You must suffer for it and you will never get out of the camp.” Three days later, we learned that our comrades had been operated on in the bunker.
Q. Now, Witness, how many women, approximately, were operated on at Ravensbrueck?
A. At Ravensbrueck 74 women were operated on. Many of them underwent many operations.
Q. Now, you have told us that five died as a result of the operations, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And another six were shot down after the operation, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know why those other six were shot, Witness?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Witness, were any of these victims asked to volunteer for these operations?
A. No.
Q. Were any of them promised freedom if they would submit to operations?
A. No.
Q. When you were operated on, did you object?
A. I could not.
Q. Why?
A. I was not allowed to talk and our questions were not answered.
Q. Do you still suffer any effects as a result of the operation, Witness?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you ever asked to sign any papers with respect to the operation?
A. Never.
Q. When did you finally leave Ravensbrueck?
A. On 27 April 1945.
Q. Have you ever received any treatment since you have left Ravensbrueck in the last year?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us what treatment you have received.
A. Dr. Gruzan in Warsaw transplanted tendons on my leg.
Q. When did he do that?
A. On 25 September 1945.
Q. Do you have to wear any special shoes, now, Witness?
A. Yes, I should wear them, but I can’t afford to buy them.
Q. What are you doing now, Witness? Are you working now, or what is your occupation?
A. I am now continuing my studies which I started before the war.
Q. I see. I will ask the witness to identify these pictures.
Mr. Hardy: This is Document NO-1082a, b, and c. I will pass these up to the Tribunal for your perusal. Were these photographs taken of you in Nuernberg in the last day or two, Witness?
Witness Dzido: Yes.
Q. Witness, would you kindly take your stocking and shoe off your right leg, please, and will you step out to the side and show the Tribunal the results of the operations at Ravensbrueck? (Witness complies.) That’s all, Witness, you may sit down.
Mr. Hardy: I have no further question on direct examination, your Honor.
Presiding Judge Beals: Is there any defense counsel who desires to cross-examine this witness?
Dr. Seidl (counsel for defendants Gebhardt, Oberheuser, and Fischer): I do not want to cross-examine the witness; however, I do not wish the conclusion to be drawn that my clients admit all the statements made by the witness.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Mr. Hardy: Dr. Alexander, have you examined Miss Dzido before today?
Witness Dr. Alexander: Yes, sir, I did, on several occasions during the last 3 days.
Q. During your examination, did you have X-rays made of the patient’s legs?
A. I did, sir.
Mr. Hardy: At this time I will introduce Document NO-1091 which is the X-ray of the witness, Miss Dzido. We will pass two copies to the Tribunal and one copy to the Secretary General. Dr. Alexander, in the course of your diagnosis of these X-rays, will you kindly diagnose this X-ray in English and then repeat in German for the benefit of the defendants?
Witness Dr. Alexander: Yes, sir.
Q. Doctor, will you identify that X-ray which carried Document NO-1091?
A. Yes. This is the X-ray which included the lower two-thirds of the thigh bone, the femur, and the knee joint, and—
Mr. Hardy: I offer this X-ray as Prosecution Exhibit 215.
Q. Doctor, this X-ray you are referring to now is Document NO-1092?
A. This is Document NO-1091. The arrow points to the osteoporotic atrophy of the tibia. Document NO-1092 is the X-ray of the leg. It shows the fibula which is the smaller of the two larger bones of the leg, about in the middle between the area just mentioned under the bracket called “B”. On the side, looking toward the tibia is the osteoperiostitis of the periosteum. This group of marks is particularly severe in the smaller area which I have marked with the bracket “A”, which indicates a smaller area of the shaft of the tibia within the larger area of the disturbance marked as “B”. This alteration is indicative and consists of an ordinary inactive Coxa, which in view of the osteoperiostitis of the periosteum was probably an osteomyelitis process. However, there is no active osteomyelitis at the present examination of the right foot. In pictures 1093 and 1094, it shows arthritic changes of the cuniform navicula joints with narrowing of the joint spaces and increased marginal sclerosis. This has been marked in the X-ray with an arrow pointing to the joint. The other prints are the same. The prints have come out too dark, but it shows the condition clearly in the film.
This arthritis is due to the immobilization of the right foot. Secondary to the muscles and especially the paralysis of the perineal nerve. It is evidently arthritis of an immobilization nature which one sees also by inspection of the patient’s foot.
Q. Doctor, can you determine from your examination——
A. (Interposing) 1094—have I mentioned it?—shows the same as 1093 in a slightly different exposure. The marks are the same pointing to the most marked arthritis between the cuniform navicular joints.
Q. Doctor, in your opinion, from your examination of this patient can you determine what was the purpose of the experiment?
A. It appears that in this experiment a highly infectious agent was implanted, probably without the addition of a bacteria static agent such as sulfanilamide, and for that reason the infection got out of hand and became very extensive.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Dr. Seidl: The experiments on Polish internees were carried out in such a way that, first of all, three series of experiments were performed on three groups of 12 persons each. Is that correct?
Defendant Gebhardt: Yes. What I wanted to solve by means of this second experimental group was the task given me in my orders, namely, the testing of the drugs prescribed. I definitely hoped in these experiments, which produced gangrene, that if there was anything in the sulfanilamide drugs, which I had reason to hope, then the advantages connected with one or the other drug would become apparent, and I would be able to discontinue the experiments. Of course, I could not stop at the initial instructions. I really had to go on to a localized and definite infection, and for that there is an internationally known precept, not discovered by us, which is to produce a locus minoris resistentia—that is to say, the place of least resistance—where germs combine with contact substances. So we did not insert dirt, glass, or earth, cruelly; the dirt in the wound was represented by sterile glass silicate; soil and textiles which would enter a wound were replaced by us through sterile cellulose, finely ground. You all know that if you cut yourself and a nonsterile piece of glass remains in the wound, if you do not move the spot, it will heal with the glass inside without any aggravated symptoms. The only effect it has is to produce a catalysis for the germs and a local obstruction to the flow of blood, and possibly to damage a few cells slightly. In other words, we produced inflammation in the safest way possible for such an experiment. That is an unquestionable scientific train of thought in this sphere. We proceeded in just that manner and in addition, we gave our sulfanilamide, or zeibazol 1., eleutron, and nitron. Two control persons, however, were not without protection, because they were taken care of in the old established way.
Now, don’t suggest that I should know the schedule or that there was some schedule regarding the supply of sulfanilamide used. A schedule is always bad in medicine because it is no longer original. One thing is characteristic, however, with sulfanilamides and that is that you give a big dose at the beginning, and here there is a question of whether it is correct to introduce it locally or to leave it open. Someone might mix it, somebody else might have a different combination and that is how we did it. I would be a bad scientist if I were to write down for you now that I knew exactly that they were all given in a certain manner on the third day, or that they are all like this and this now. It states expressly in Thomas’ statement, of course, that any prearranged table for the administration is wrong, and that we also cannot prescribe the correct way to apply these drugs. It was obviously clear that there was a strong impression made by sulfanilamides and, even in the first group, we were astonished to find a certain result, which is useful for the idea as such, but not for practical purposes. Among other things we immediately and simultaneously sprinkled a mixture of germs together with sulfanilamide powder into the wound. That was the only exception made in the first group and it didn’t produce any results at all. Now, if I were a bad scientist then I would have assumed that that, in itself, was a success. No matter whether it was the ultrasepsis or the powder we had used, I would have been satisfied, and I would have said, “Everybody now has to take a little bag of sulfanilamide along with him and powder the wounds with it immediately because we know that if they are inserted simultaneously into the wound—the germ and the drug—then there will be no inflammation.” Only in complete ignorance of wound conditions and war conditions could one adopt that point of view. The disadvantage of the sulfanilamide bag is that a man who is badly shot isn’t in a position to act; he would be lying somewhere badly wounded and not be able to do anything. On the other hand, of course, the position is that the surface of the wound can easily be powdered, but of course not right down to the very bottom of the wound, and we know particularly well that sulfanilamides when applied wrongly in this way have caused injury.
Q. The second group consisted of the 36 women, 3 times 12 women?
A. Yes. Infection, plus contact materials.
Q. Is it true that the Reich Physician SS, Dr. Grawitz, on 3 September 1942, when inspecting Ravensbrueck, demanded that the experimental conditions had to be made more severe in order to create conditions similar to wartime conditions?
A. At the beginning of September, on the basis of my report, I was called to Grawitz to report on the results which might be expected. Grawitz, and as I shall explain later, Stumpfegger, came to me at the beginning of September. Since Grawitz was coming to Ravensbrueck I turned up on the same day, so that Fischer could demonstrate the patients under my protection. That is the impression probably created repeatedly by the testimony of witnesses; they have to wait for a time, and then I say “These are the patients whom I operated on.” I assume the same description was given each time. Grawitz was able to prove to me that the effects were circumscribed and not of a war nature. And he was able to prove to me that I had obtained no clear medical information, only assumptions, and the clinical conditions resulting might perhaps be expected after surgery at home. For another reason, which can be seen from the documents, the argument became rather violent. Grawitz turned to Fischer, who presented the cases to him. At any rate he then said, unfortunately, that a speedy clarification had to be reached and that wounds similar to combat wounds had to be created, that is, a gunshot wound infected by earth and matter. Of course, I did not accept these conditions and I looked for some way to get the experiment into my own hands so that, using all safeguards, a higher degree of infection might be brought about, and the cases might still remain under my control. I did not want to give up and say, “I have not reached any conclusion,” thereby impliedly giving permission for wounds similar to combat wounds to be inflicted elsewhere. And so we arrived at the idea of tying off the arteries of the third group, which is also a customary means of bringing about a locus minoris resistentiae in international experimental technique.
Q. You did not carry out the order then?
A. No.
Q. Then how were the experiments continued in order to create severe local inflammation in warlike wounds?
A. We kept to our old technique, the infusion, that is an incision on the outer side of the calf far from the joint, where it is not under pressure, and where the cast does not hurt it. In other words, we chose the most suitable place according to all medical considerations. Then we administered the infection in a place where the circulation of the blood had been reduced.
Q. What do you know about the deaths, and why was there no amputation in these cases?
A. I believe that I can remember the three deaths very well. But I only remember three—I have always testified that—with all the things that have happened in the meantime and all the patients I have taken care of. It was not that Fischer or I overlooked an amputation, and it is certainly not true that an amputation can save the life of the patient in all cases of gangrene. As I remember the case histories, the most serious patient had a large abscess on the hip. Probably the corresponding glands had been affected. The infection on the calf and the abscess on the hip—what can I amputate? One can amputate when the infection is limited to the calf. We did not have such cases because we forced the infection to the place where we wanted it, but we were not able to prevent the infection spreading to a different area and running into the blood vessel as does happen occasionally. There are infections of the veins, and then the patient dies suddenly, and it is a definite risk to perform an operation because the power of resistance is on the borderline, hanging by a hair. If we perform such major operations to save the patient’s life, then you may assume that we would have undertaken an amputation, or would you assume that a surgeon of my experience does not know when he has to amputate? Unfortunately that is the first thing that an operative surgeon like Fischer learns in wartime, to amputate in time.
As far as I remember, the deaths were from an abscess of the glands, an inflammation of the veins, an inflammation of the blood vessels, and one died from general sickness, in spite of all transfusions. This happens in cases of infection when there is no possibility of stopping the infection by local surgery. But one cannot conclude that any medical measures which should have been taken were overlooked, because just by seeing a case history from a distance one cannot decide that at such and such a moment the patient should have been operated on. I am convinced that in these three cases which Fischer reported to me exactly, which I saw, and in which the therapy was discussed, that we certainly did not overlook anything. As far as one can humanly say, we did what we considered necessary.
I wanted to publish this result or to report it to the public from the beginning. Therefore, it was obvious from the very beginning, if you did not assume that I had any humane or surgical motives, that I did everything in order to be able to publish the results.