EXTRACTS FROM THE TESTIMONY OF TRIBUNAL WITNESS
WALTER NEFF^[30]

EXAMINATION BY PROSECUTION

Mr. McHaney: When did the freezing experiments start?

Witness Neff: The first freezing experiments started during August or at the end of July. They were conducted by Prof. Holzloehner, Dr. Finke, and Dr. Rascher. The freezing experiments can be divided into two separate classes, the Holzloehner-Finke series, which were later dropped, and a series where Dr. Rascher conducted these experiments himself.

Q. All right. Suppose you describe the experimental basin.

A. The experimental basin was built of wood. It was 2 meters long and 2 meters high. It was raised about 50 centimeters above the floor and it was in Block No. 5. In the experimental chamber and basin there were many lighting instruments and other apparatus which were used in order to carry out measurements.

Q. Now, you have stated that you can divide the freezing experiments into two groups, one where Holzloehner and Finke were working with Rascher and then the period after Holzloehner and Finke had left?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, will you tell the Tribunal approximately how many persons were used over the whole period? That is, including both groups that you have mentioned.

A. Two hundred and eighty to three hundred experimental subjects were used for these freezing experiments. There were really 360 to 400 experiments that were conducted, since many experimental subjects were used for more than one such experiment—sometimes even for three.

Q. Now, out of the total of 280 or 300 prisoners used, approximately how many died?

A. Approximately 80 to 90 subjects died as a result of these freezing experiments.

Q. Now, how many experimental subjects do you remember that they used in the Holzloehner-Finke-Rascher experiments?

A. During that period of time approximately 50 to 60 subjects were used for experimental purposes.

Q. Did any of these experimental subjects die?

A. Yes. During that period of time there were about 15, maybe even 18 cases of death.

Q. When was that experimental series concluded?

A. It was concluded in the month of October. I think it was at the end of October. At that time Holzloehner and Finke discontinued these experiments, giving the reason that they had accomplished their purpose and that it was useless to carry out further experiments of that kind.

Q. And then Rascher continued experiments on his own?

A. Yes. Rascher conducted these experiments saying that he had to build a scientific basis for them and he prepared a lecture for Marburg University on the subject.

Q. How long did Rascher continue to experiment with freezing by cold water?

A. Until May 1943.

Q. Now, were the experimental subjects for the freezing experiments selected in the same way as for the high-altitude experiments?

A. No. Here Rascher turned to the camp administration and told them that he needed so and so many experimental subjects. Then the political department of the camp selected 10 inmates by name. That list was sent to the camp commandant and was signed by the camp commandant and they were then sent to Rascher’s station and the subjects on that list had to be experimented on. I was able to use the original list as evidence in the first Dachau trial.

Q. Do I understand then that the experimental subjects used in the freezing experiments were political prisoners?

A. There were a number of political prisoners and also a number of foreigners, but there were also prisoners of war and inmates who had been condemned to death.

Q. These persons were not volunteers, were they?

A. No.

Q. Suppose you describe to the Tribunal exactly how these freezing experiments were carried out, that is what tests they made, how they measured the temperature and how the temperature of the water was lowered in the basin and so forth?

A. These basins were filled with water, and ice was added until the water measured 3°, and the experimental subjects were either dressed in a flying suit or were placed into the ice water naked. During the period when Holzloehner and Finke were active, most experiments were conducted under narcotics because he maintained that you could not find the exact condition of the blood, and that you would exclude the will power of the experimental subject if he was under an anaesthetic. Now whenever the experimental subjects were conscious, it took some time until so-called freezing narcosis set in. The temperature was measured rectally and through the stomach through the Galvanometer apparatus. The lowering of the temperature to 32° was terrible for the experimental subject. At 32° the experimental subject lost consciousness. These persons were frozen down to 25° body temperature, and now in order to enable you to understand this problem, I should like to tell you something about the Holzloehner and Finke period. During the period when Holzloehner and Finke were active, no experimental subject was actually killed in the water. Deaths occurred all the more readily because during revival the temperature dropped even further and so heart failure resulted. This was also caused by wrongly applied therapy, so that in contrast to the low-pressure experiments, deaths were not deliberately caused. In the air-pressure chamber on the other hand, each death cannot be described as an accident, but as willful murder. However, it was different when Rascher personally took over these experiments. At that time a large number of the persons involved were kept in the water until they were dead.

Q. Now, Witness, you have identified the defendant Weltz in the defendants’ dock. On what occasion did you meet Weltz?

A. I met Weltz in Munich. I saw him there once. According to my recollection it was in Luftgau Kommando VII, Prinzregenten Strasse No. 2, and I saw him speak to Rascher there, and at a later date Rascher told me that that was Professor Weltz. I remember this incident especially since Rascher often discussed Weltz and his animal experiments, which he carried out with reference to freezing. I never saw Professor Weltz in Dachau or anywhere in the camp.

Q. Do you know, Witness, whether Rascher and Weltz exchanged information on freezing problems?

A. I don’t know that. I would assume so, since Rascher discussed Professor Weltz’ experiments, and he certainly must have had some discussions with Weltz on the subject. However, I know of no correspondence with Weltz.

Q. Do you recall the occasion when two Russian officers were experimented upon in the freezing experiments?

A. Yes.

Q. Will you relate that incident to the Tribunal?

A. Yes. It was the worst experiment which was ever carried out. Two Russian officers were carried out from the bunker. We were forbidden to speak to them. They arrived at approximately 4 o’clock in the afternoon. Rascher had them undressed and they had to go into the basin naked. Hour after hour passed and while usually after a short time, 60 minutes, freezing had set in, these two Russians were still conscious after 2 hours. All our appeals to Rascher asking him to give them an injection were of no avail. Approximately during the third hour one Russian said to the other, “Comrade, tell that officer to shoot us.” The other replied, “Don’t expect any mercy from this Fascist dog.” Then they shook hands and said “Goodbye, Comrade.” If you can imagine that we inmates had to witness such a death, and could do nothing about it, then you can judge how terrible it is to be condemned to work in such an experimental station.

After these words were translated for Rascher in a somewhat different form by a young Pole, Rascher went back into his office. The young Pole tried at once to give them an anesthetic with chloroform, but Rascher returned immediately and threatened to shoot us with his pistol if we dared approach these victims again. The experiment lasted at least 5 hours until death occurred. Both corpses were sent to Munich for autopsy in the Schwabing Hospital.

Q. Witness, how long did it normally take to kill a person in these freezing experiments?

A. The length of the experiment varied, according to the individual case. Whether the subject was clothed or unclothed also made a difference. If he was slight in build and if in addition to that he was naked, death often occurred after only 80 minutes. But there were a number of cases where the experimental subject lived up to 3 hours, and remained in the water until finally death occurred.

Q. Will you describe to the Tribunal the method used for rewarming the victims of the freezing experiments?

A. During the period when Rascher, Holzloehner, and Finke were there, rewarming was in the beginning carried out by massage and partly by means of injections of drugs affecting the heart, and also by means of rewarming by electrical heaters and sometimes by means of a warm bath. At the end of the Holzloehner period, the hot water rewarming method was introduced, and that was carried out until the end of the rewarming experiments with the exception of a few special experiments with animal heat. About 10 women from the concentration camp at Ravensbrueck were ordered to report to Dachau to supply the heat and were forced to press themselves against the body of the frozen person in order to rewarm him in that manner. These are the methods which were employed in order to rewarm the frozen body.

Q. Now, Witness, did I understand you to say that the hot water bath method of rewarming was not adopted until after Holzloehner and Finke had left?

A. After Holzloehner and Finke had left the station, hot water rewarming was also carried out.

Q. Do you recall receiving orders in September 1942 from Sievers to take the hearts and lungs of five inmates who had been killed to Professor Hirt in Strasbourg for further scientific study?

A. It is correct that I had to take specimens belonging to five persons who died during experiments from the morgue to Hirt in Strasbourg. I myself, of course, have never done any dissecting and therefore did not prepare these specimens. Sievers ordered me to go to Strasbourg and there deliver the glasses to Professor Hirt, together with an accompanying letter. This was the end of September or the beginning of October. The travel warrant had been made out by Sievers and the traveling expenses were also paid by the Ahnenerbe.

Q. Had the five experimental subjects been killed shortly before you left for Strasbourg?

A. I cannot remember with absolute certainty whether the specimens were fresh or whether they were taken from older corpses. I do know that among the specimens there was one from a Dutchman. I cannot recollect for certain the nationality of the other four.

Q. Did you deliver these hearts and lungs to Professor Hirt in Strasbourg?

A. I delivered them in Strasbourg, not to Professor Hirt himself but to the laboratory at the University there. The letter to Professor Hirt I handed to him personally, and he wanted me to return and see him in the afternoon, since he had to give me something to take to Dachau. He gave me a sealed letter to Dr. Rascher and a parcel for Sister Pia which I handed to Rascher to pass on.

Q. Now, Professor Hirt was also a member, in fact the head of the Department of the Ahnenerbe Society, was he not?

A. We knew that Professor Hirt was also making experiments and belonged to the Ahnenerbe Society.

EXTRACT FROM THE TESTIMONY OF DEFENDANT HANDLOSER^[31]

CROSS-EXAMINATION

Mr. McHaney: Let us pass on, General. Your attorney asked you whether or not you ever gained any information concerning the freezing experiments carried out by Rascher, Holzloehner, and Finke. Do you deny that you ever received knowledge on that matter?

Defendant Handloser: I said, no.

Q. As a result of the Eastern campaign weren’t you very much interested in “Cold” problems?

A. Yes.

Q. Isn’t that why you sent army officers to the Luftwaffe conference in October 1942?

A. Of course the interest in cold problems was of an important nature. I do not know who assigned them. From May until the end of October I was with headquarters in the Ukraine and I believe that the chief probably telephoned me as to whether or how many people we should send, and he may have made some proposal, and I think I would have told him on that occasion “Yes, I am in full agreement. Send somebody there.” It is quite a matter of course that we took people who knew something about cold because they were the people who would be interested in it.

Q. Well, having sent them, you then immediately lost interest in the problem, I suppose?

A. No, I did not lose interest. At some period of time somebody probably reported to me whether something particular had happened or whether there were any particular results or not, and what could be exploited by us. But, at that time there was no mention of anything in particular having occurred, nor was it said that any particular revolutionary results were achieved. At any rate, I cannot recollect that anything like that happened. I should merely like to point out that my interest in cold problems was in our particular sphere of these problems, that is the so-called earth-bound cold, at normal height or at the most in the mountains where it concerned soldiers in mountain troops. That was something which we discussed during various meetings, at first in 1942; it was discussed to a great extent, and very exact directives were contained in the reports of these meetings. You will find them in 1942 and you will find them in 1943. Naturally we were interested in cold problems, and it is quite a matter of course that whenever we were invited by the Luftwaffe to send our experts we did. The same thing is done everywhere, not only in the army and in the field of medicine, but in technical fields as well.

Q. Well, I thought that was probably correct, General; now I want to put it to you that Holzloehner had made a very remarkable discovery and one which I am sure came to your attention. Holzloehner and Rascher had found out that this massive warm bath was an extremely effective way of reviving persons from shock due to long exposure to cold, a treatment which had been first discovered by a Russian in the 19th century but had been forgotten somehow. Wasn’t this a matter remarkable enough so that Schreiber, who was at this meeting, or one of the many other army doctors who were down there, would perhaps call it to your attention, after the extreme cold you had suffered in Russia the previous winter?

A. I said already before that we were always interested in cold problems and as you say, very correctly, mainly because of this terrible winter of 1941-42. I knew before that our regulations which were valid up to the war and perhaps during the first year of the war, stated that people who were frozen had to be rewarmed very slowly. The entire population was informed that a frozen person should not be rewarmed too quickly. Even before that we included in our regulations that one should concentrate on rewarming, and certain forms of rewarming were described. If we army people who knew the Russian front were not as impressed by this warm bath, as you may think we were, it was probably because there were no warm baths available along the entire Eastern front, and this plays quite a large part in the impression any new invention may have made on us.

Q. Well, now, General, let me put it to you this way. Did you make any changes in the basic directives concerning the rewarming after shock from exposure to cold after this Luftwaffe conference or after the conference in December 1942?

A. If you look through the reports of the meetings and the directives it is quite possible that somewhere, I can’t tell you exactly where although I have it, something is said about warm or hot baths in regard to freezing. You yourself brought to our knowledge again, through a document, that in December 1942, that is, after Nuernberg, Holzloehner spoke about his rewarming questions during a conference in the Academy. That was reported to 300 or 400 men who transferred that information to the front and I am sure that later on new directives contained information about the warm bath, too.

Q. I am sure it did, too, General. That is the reason I asked you because I think that there is no doubt that great importance was attached to the results of this experiment in Dachau by Rascher, Holzloehner, and Finke. I now want to ask you if you didn’t actually hear Holzloehner speak in December 1942 at the meeting of consulting physicians at the Military Medical Academy?

A. I cannot recollect that, and I must say once more that that is something which was done within the various expert branches. I am sure you will see that these expert branches dealt with these suggestions themselves. However much one so desires, it is not possible to participate in several expert branches simultaneously.

Q. Well, then, to put it to you, General, this speech by Holzloehner is reported in our Document NO-922, Prosecution Exhibit 435, and it goes on—you have a very short synopsis here of his report but he does give clinical observations in cases of deaths resulting from cold, and I find that you made some comments at this cold session on page 51 of the original report. It reads:

A. May I ask you where it is? Is it with reference to the lecture by Holzloehner? At any rate, it seems to be within the framework of the cold problem.

Q. General, I will put the German to you so that you can see for yourself. General, let us read the little summary of the speech by Holzloehner because the Tribunal does not have this document before it. It reads:

Now, General, after that little summary of the talk by Holzloehner there were several other lecturers on freezing problems and then at the end we have the gentlemen who made some comments on these lectures; we find among them Bremer, Dr. Hippke, the man who commissioned these experiments, and Jarisch and Buechner. Now I want to ask you if this document refreshes your recollection so that you can tell us whether or not you heard this report by Holzloehner.

A. Yes, after reading what I have in my hand now, it is quite possible that I listened to this lecture. At the same time, it is a proof that I have not as good a memory as you assumed, because I already had this document in my hands once before here in Nuernberg; you once gave it to me and I forgot about it.

Q. Now, did Holzloehner describe clinical observations about human deaths resulting from cold in this lecture which you heard?

A. I cannot tell you that.

Q. Does it not say so in your own report here?

A. It says here that Holzloehner belonged to the Luftwaffe and as far as I was informed later, Holzloehner had gained a large amount of experience from his service on the Atlantic Coast. I am sure that was something which was mentioned during his lecture. He had an emergency sea station near the Atlantic coast and near that there was a hospital where he treated these frozen people who had been rescued from the sea. There was no cause to suspect anything special behind this.

Q. Was it apparent to you that he carried out experiments on human beings?

A. No.

Q. Well, General, we have heard some testimony here about the talk Holzloehner gave in Nuernberg 2 months before this and, as I recall, there was some indignation in this meeting in October 1942, because all these gentlemen realized what had happened; are you telling me that no rumor of this seeped up from Nuernberg to Berlin in 2 months, so when the same man gave the same talk, you gentlemen were in complete ignorance about the fact that these experiments had been carried out on living human beings in a concentration camp?

A. I cannot say how far any discussions or any indignations were noted in Nuernberg. At any rate, I never heard anything about any rejection or any indignation. I could well imagine that if I were to hold a lecture somewhere and I afterwards gained the impression that there was some kind of obscurity, or some particular sensation, and if 2 months later, I gave the same lecture at another place, I would naturally change my lecture and would draw my conclusions from what I had learned previously. I am sure that this might well have been the case here. At any rate after reading this excerpt, if a few pages are missing here and if one doesn’t look at the pages exactly, one must assume that the man noted down here as Handloser spoke immediately after the lecture of Holzloehner. I believe that the report of the meeting itself will show you that a few other lectures took place between the lecture of Holzloehner and the discussion. You will also have to admit that considering the fact that we were approaching winter again (this meeting took place in December 1942) my remarks did not refer so much to Professor Holzloehner’s lecture, but were merely a reminder that we wanted to do everything and in that way wanted to concentrate our entire interest on the front where freezing took place in order to help our soldiers. That is all this discussion was.

EXTRACT FROM THE TESTIMONY OF DEFENDANT SCHROEDER^[32]

CROSS-EXAMINATION

Mr. McHaney: I don’t believe you have told the Tribunal yet about the conversation you had with Holzloehner on his freezing experiments, have you?

Defendant Schroeder: What experiments do you mean? What conversation do you mean? Do you mean in 1940?

Q. General, you know as a matter of fact there apparently is some dispute between the prosecution and yourself about the precise date, but you knew during the course of the war that Holzloehner, Finke, and Rascher had carried out experiments on concentration camp inmates at Dachau?

A. Yes, I learned that in my office in 1944, as I said here before.

Q. And, I am suggesting to you that after you learned that Holzloehner had been implicated in those experiments you called him in and talked to him?

A. Yes, oh yes. I know when you mean now, yes. There are two things which play a part here. I said yesterday that in 1940 Holzloehner had furnished people who were rescued from the sea to the Rescue Station at Witze, where he first gained experience. Then I lost sight of Holzloehner, since I left the west in the year 1941, and I saw him again for the first time in the fall of 1944, when for some reason that I do not know, he visited one of the men in my office. At that time I spoke to him briefly, and since I had learned in the meantime that he was conducting, experiments in Dachau, I asked him whether that was correct or how he was doing it. I remember at that time he told me that he was conducting experiments based on the experience which he had gained on the coast, and he was supplementing these experiments by conducting experiments on human beings in Dachau. At that time he was speaking about six or seven criminals who had been condemned to death were put at his disposal for that purpose. At that time, he said nothing about any fatalities. I gained the impression then that the entire manner of the experiments had impressed him mentally. I had the feeling that he did not want to speak about it; his suicide later confirmed that.

Q. Well, General, I think this is all rather significant. I think you should have probably made some mention of it before this date. When was this meeting with Holzloehner?

A. I mentioned it during my interrogation; I think that was in the fall of 1944. I cannot remember the exact date. It could have been November 1944. I am not quite sure.

Q. Well, this was after you had initiated the sea-water experiments, then; is that right?

A. Considerably later, yes.

Q. And, as I recall, you also said in this interrogation that you had seen this report by Holzloehner, which I understand you have denied heretofore; now, had you seen Holzloehner’s report or not?

A. No, nor did I ever say that I had. He reported to me on this, but he did not show me a report.

Q. Now, General, I am reading from a summary of an interrogation of you made on 21 October 1946, and one paragraph reads as follows: “Schroeder also knows about the ‘See-Not’ and ‘Winter-Not’ reports from which he could conclude that human beings were used for experiments. This could also be concluded from Holzloehner’s report on the freezing experiments, and it could furthermore be seen from the comments which Dr. Rascher wrote on the above matter. Schroeder learned about these matters in 1944.” Now, is this summary inaccurate?

A. Very inaccurate.

Q. All right, let us get it straight. In the first part of 1943 you received a report on the Nuernberg meeting, did you not?

A. Yes.

Q. In May 1944, Becker-Freyseng told you that Holzloehner, Finke, and Rascher, had carried out experiments on concentration camp inmates at Dachau, did he not?

A. That is not the right way of putting it. He said that Holzloehner had made the experiments; nothing was said to me about Rascher and Finke. I did not know them then. I learned their names only since I was imprisoned.

Q. You mean you had not heard up to then that Rascher had worked with Holzloehner on these experiments; is that right?

A. No, I did not say that. I heard Rascher’s name for the first time in this report of 1945 when I was imprisoned.

Q. Well, I do not know, General, but I am going to look in just a minute—I think Rascher’s and Finke’s names are mentioned in this report which you got in the first part of 1943 on the Nuernberg meeting. You do not recall that?

A. No.

Q. And I very well remember that Rascher had made a comment on this rather long lecture by Holzloehner, from which it could clearly be seen that Rascher himself was experimenting with Holzloehner; do you not remember that?

A. I can say that now, because in the meantime I have seen these reports, “See-Not” and “Winter-Not,” and have read them through carefully and acquainted myself with the various names, and I know that in this report there is an extensive report by Holzloehner and after that a short remark by Rascher. I did not pay any attention to it at that time because I had no connections with Rascher, nor did I see any reason why I should; but I did interest myself in Holzloehner’s report because I knew him from working with him on the French coast.

Q. Well, we will come back to the report in just a moment, but right now I want to go on with your discussion with Holzloehner. Can you tell us, more or less, exactly what he told you?

A. That is a little too much to ask me to recall a brief remark that I made in 1944 on the occasion of a very short visit. I do recall that I met Holzloehner outside my hut, and I asked him to step in a moment; then I asked him about the experiments. He answered me briefly and that was the end of our conversation. The only thing that struck me was that Holzloehner, who previously had been a very lively and brisk person, seemed very depressed and worn out. I attributed that to the 5 years of war that had passed. That there were other reasons, perhaps, for this, I could only adduce later from his tragic demise. It could be that I commented to my adjutant on this subject. I am not sure at the moment, but I think it is quite possible because Augustinick knew Holzloehner very well and liked him. Perhaps Augustinick can be asked about that later.

Q. You said a moment ago you got the impression that Holzloehner did not want to talk about these experiments, and you also had been dabbling in Dachau experiments yourself. I think under these circumstances it might be expected that you would have questioned Holzloehner rather closely about what went on in his experiments. You did not do that?

A. He told me briefly that his observations from the English channel coast could be checked on experiments being performed in Dachau on criminals condemned to death, and that these experiments had been described in the report which he had submitted. That made it perfectly clear what was going on, so why should I ask anything further? I was not particularly interested in going into that specific result.

Q. Well, were the sea-water experiments over at that time?

A. Yes, some time before, and that must have been why Holzloehner came to me because these experiments had long been concluded.

Q. You did not have any one in the nature of representative at the Nuernberg meeting in October 1942?

A. No.

Q. Now, you mentioned this report which you received on that meeting; that is Document NO-401, Prosecution Exhibit 93. You stated that you did not know that Rascher and Finke were working with Holzloehner. I found a statement on page 11 of this report which reads as follows: “For the relevant statements, we have to thank the cooperation of Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher and Stabsarzt Dr. Finke; they refer to a stay in water of 2 to 12 degrees.” That statement indicates very clearly that Rascher and Finke were working with Holzloehner, does it not?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, I think you stated to your own defense counsel that it was impossible for you to conclude from this report that experiments had been carried out, but rather, you thought they were clinical observations made on people fished out of the North Sea, is that right?

A. Yes, I based my testimony solely on the Holzloehner report which was the only thing that interested me. There were reports by Rose and others but I did not read them. I glanced through them briefly but gave no further attention to them because I did not know the people who had drawn them up.

Q. Let’s just look briefly at one or two points here and see if they might not indicate to you, if you thought about it a little bit, that these were really experiments and not clinical observations on people who accidentally fell into the sea. For instance, on page 11 of the translation it states as follows:

Now, when you read that little paragraph about a man who had been in the water 5 to 10 minutes where it is said that he had rigor of the skeletal muscles, where his inspiration is deepened and his expiration is delayed and where there is a heavy mucous secretion, did you imagine that they had Dr. Holzloehner in a lifeboat in the North Sea making these observations on some aviator who had fallen in accidentally? Did you think that, General?

A. Yes, that’s what I thought. You don’t know the local situation at Visson. There were a beach and dunes, and a guard from the rescue station always stood on the dunes to keep an eye on the water and the surrounding country, particularly when flights to England were taking place, so that it actually did happen that fliers bailed out and fell into the water just in front of the shoreline. Rescue boats were ready at that time and went out to sea immediately, so that it was altogether possible that fliers who fell into the water close to the coast could very quickly be observed and rescued. These are the facts of what actually took place at that rescue station at that time.

Q. On the same page they have this remark: “With the drop of the rectal temperature to 31°, a clouding of consciousness occurs, which passes to a deep, cold-induced anaesthesia if the decline reaches below 30°.”

Now, do you suppose that they pulled this aviator in and inserted a rectal thermometer and found his temperature at 31° and then tossed him back and let it drop another degree, all the time watching closely a clouding of consciousness, and then hauled him back in when it was 30° and noted a deep, cold-induced anaesthesia?

A. No, that isn’t the correct way to put it either. This is one of the observations that was new to us and to which we paid a great deal of attention in order to explain these incomprehensible fatalities, namely, the fact that when the people were removed from the water their temperature still dropped and simultaneously with the drop in temperature a fatal collapse of the heart occurred. This was one of our fundamental and new observations. And I must report again and again that this rescue house was a small place, but it did have the apparatus for observing these people very exactly. That was the sense of the whole thing.

Q. General, you’ve already covered yourself a little bit by saying you didn’t read these discussions after Holzloehner’s lecture very carefully; but I want to read you the one by Rascher, in any event, and see if you won’t admit that if you had read this little comment by Rascher that there could have been no doubt whatsoever in your mind that experiments were carried out and not observations on aviators in the North Sea. This is on page 15 of the translation, and Rascher has said: