EXTRACTS FROM THE TESTIMONY OF TRIBUNAL WITNESS WALTER NEFF^[25]

EXAMINATION BY PROSECUTION

Mr. McHaney: * * * When did the high-altitude experiments begin in Dachau?

Witness Neff: The first high-altitude experiments were on 22 February 1942. The so-called low-pressure chambers had been brought in earlier and dismounted. The exact time when the chambers came is not known to me.

Q. Why do you remember the date when the first experiments were made in the low-pressure chambers so well?

A. The 22d of February is my birthday and the tubercular patients gave a party for me. On that date the experiments started, and that is why I remember the date.

Q. Will you tell the Tribunal who worked on these experiments?

A. The experiments were conducted by Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg. Ten prisoners were selected and were taken to the station as permanent experimental subjects; and they were told that nothing would happen to them. In the beginning, the first 3 weeks, the experiments went off without incident. One day, however, Rascher told me the next day he was going to make a serious experiment and that he would need 16 Russians who had been condemned to death, and he received these Russians. Then I told Rascher that I would not help, and I actually got Rascher to send me away to the tubercular ward. On that day I know for certain that Rascher’s SS man Endres or other SS men conducted these experiments. Dr. Romberg was not there that day. The SS man Endres took the Russian prisoners of war to Rascher and in the evening the parties were taken out. On the next day when I returned to the station, Endres was already there and he said that two more, two Jews, would be killed. I am quoting what he said. I left the station again, but I watched to see who would be taken for the experiments. I saw the first one getting into the car. I could only see his profile. It seemed familiar to me. I knew that man worked in the hospital as a tailor. I tried to find out if it was really that man. I went to the place where he worked, and I was told that Endres had just taken the man away. The first person that I informed was Dr. Romberg whom I met in the corridor. I told Romberg that this was not a person who had been condemned to death, that this was a clear case of murder on the responsibility of Endres. Romberg went with me to see Rascher to clear the matter up, but it was discovered that Endres had put this man in the experimental car because he had refused to make a civilian suit for him. Rascher sent the man back; Endres went with him and remarked: “Well, then you will get an injection today.” I must say that Rascher interfered once more and put the man in safety into the bunker. In the meantime, Endres had brought a second man up, a Czech, whom I knew very well. Again it was Romberg together with me who talked to Rascher to stop this experiment or to inquire why a man like Endres was simply taking people who had never been condemned to death. Rascher went to the camp commandant, Piorkowski, who personally came to the station and Endres was transferred to Lublin immediately.

And now I come to the subject: it was actually the day on which my comrade and I reached the decision that under all circumstances, no matter what happened, I would not remain at this——

Q. Now, Witness, let me interrupt you just a minute. We will come back and you can tell the full story then.

Presiding Judge Beals: I will ask the Secretary General to turn this book over to counsel for the prosecution, and defense counsel may examine the book.

Mr. McHaney: Now, Witness, before the recess, you had been telling the Tribunal about the high-altitude experiments which you stated began on 22 February 1942, and you had related how early in March Rascher had experimented upon some 15 Russians who were killed and you stated that neither you nor the defendant Romberg were present on that occasion and you then had gone on to relate that an SS man in Dachau named Endres had brought in the tailor at the camp and wanted him to be experimented upon and how you recognized the tailor and interceded with Romberg and had this man returned. Now, before you continue with your story, I would like to put some specific questions to you. It is true, is it not, that concentration camp inmates were experimented on during these high-altitude experiments?

Witness Neff: Yes.

Q. About how many concentration camp inmates were subjected to these high-altitude experiments?

A. There were 180 to 200 inmates who were subjected to the high-altitude experiments.

Q. When, to the best of your recollection, did the high-altitude experiments end?

A. The incident of the dead—I am afraid I didn’t quite get your question. Will you repeat it?

Q. I am asking you, Witness, when the high-altitude experiments ended, that is, when they were completed.

A. During the course of June—maybe the beginning of July, the low-pressure chambers were taken away. I don’t recollect the exact date, however.

Q. And you state that between 22 February 1942 and the end of June, or the beginning of July 1942, approximately 180 to 200 concentration camp inmates were experimented on?

A. Yes.

Q. What nationalities were the experimental subjects?

A. I cannot say that with certainty but I think that approximately all nations were represented there; that is, all nations that were in the camp, mostly Russians, Poles, Germans, and Jews belonging to any nation. I do not remember any other nationalities being represented there.

Q. Were any of these experimental subjects prisoners of war?

A. Yes.

Q. What nationalities were they? Do you recall?

A. They were Russians.

Q. Now, will you tell the Tribunal how these experimental subjects were selected?

A. The experimental subjects who had to be subjected to severe experiments, experiments that would end in death, were requested by Rascher from the camp administration and then furnished by the SS; however, this procedure differed with the so-called series of experiments and a number of other experiments. For those experiments, the people were brought into the experimental station straight from the camp, that is, from the blocks.

Q. Now, did they, to your knowledge, make any effort in the camp to secure volunteers for these experiments?

A. There were certain volunteers for these experiments. That was because Rascher promised certain persons that they would be released from the camp if they underwent these experiments. He sometimes promised them that they would be detailed to more favorable work.

Q. Now, about how many of such volunteers would you say there were for the high-altitude experiments?

A. I do not know the exact number. It was not very high; approximately 10 inmates volunteered for that purpose.

Q. Did these volunteers come one at a time, or did they come in a body, or just how did they present themselves to the experimental stations?

A. Rascher moved around the camp quite a lot and on that occasion the inmates spoke to him.

Q. In other words, the camp officials and Rascher and Romberg made no effort to find volunteers, did they?

A. I don’t know, but I should not think so. I should not think that they made great efforts to get volunteers.

Q. Now, other than these approximately 10 persons who you state presented themselves as volunteers, were all the rest of the experimental subjects simply picked out and brought in and experimented on?

A. Yes.

Q. Were any of these prisoners experimented upon released from the concentration camp because they underwent the experiments?

A. There is only one man who was released after the high-altitude experiments.

Q. And who was that?

A. An inmate with the name of Sobota.

Q. And did Sobota assist Rascher in his experimental work other than simply undergoing the experiment? Was he something in the nature of an assistant to Rascher?

A. No. Sobota was one of those persons who had to undergo most of the experiments and he was also used on one experiment which was conducted in the presence of the Reich Leader SS. On that occasion he was asked by the Reich Leader how long he had been in the camp and he promised him that he would be released. He was later sent to the Group Dirlewanger.

Q. Was it considered a privilege to be released to the Group Dirlewanger?

A. No. The inmates who later were forced to transfer to the Group Dirlewanger thought that this was the worst thing that could happen to them.

Q. Will you tell the Tribunal just what the Group Dirlewanger was?

A. The Group Dirlewanger was an SS division who received their education in Oranienburg and who were used for special purposes. At one time 200 German political inmates in this group were transferred to Russia. All persons who were forced to join this group were very disgusted at being forced to join the SS and fight for them. They considered being selected to join the SS as the very worst disgrace.

Q. Was the Dirlewanger a special commando group?

A. Yes, it was a special commando group and was assigned to the most dangerous spots. However, I only know that from comrades to whom I have spoken about this matter after the liberation.

Q. Other than the prisoner Sobota, were there any other concentration camp inmates released as a result of undergoing the high-altitude experiments?

A. I know of no case except Sobota.

Q. Do you know of any cases where a prisoner condemned to death had his sentence commuted to life imprisonment because he underwent the high-altitude experiments?

A. No.

Q. Witness, were any political prisoners used in these high-altitude experiments?

A. Yes, there were political prisoners who were used in these experiments. All foreigners were considered political prisoners.

Q. Witness, tell the Tribunal how one could tell the difference between a political and a criminal prisoner in a concentration camp?

A. All inmates had certain squares with letters; the political inmates had red squares; the German political inmates had a plain red square; the Poles had a red square with a “P” marked on it; the Russians with an “R”; all nationalities could be identified by the first letter of their country. The red square with a yellow star was the Jew. The green square, on the other hand was the sign of the so-called professional criminal. Here it must be said that there were quite a number of people with green squares who did not fall under the classification of professional criminals, but who were sent to the camp with that square since the Gestapo could find no excuse to send them into the camp as political prisoners.

Q. Now, was this square really a square or a triangle?

A. It was really a triangle with the head of the triangle pointed down to the earth. If it pointed upward, it indicated a member of the Wehrmacht who was sent to the camp for punishment.

Q. Witness, were any Jews experimented on in these high-altitude experiments?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, tell the Tribunal approximately how many prisoners were killed during the course of the high-altitude experiments?

A. During the high-altitude experiments 70 to 80 persons were killed.

Q. Did they experiment on prisoners other than those condemned to death?

A. Yes.

Q. Were any of those prisoners who had not been condemned to death killed during the course of the high-altitude experiments?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have any idea how many may have been killed?

A. There could have been approximately 40 persons.

Q. That is, 40 persons were killed, who had not been condemned to death, out of a total of 70, did you say?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, were some of those killed political prisoners?

A. Yes.

Q. Is there any way of telling whether or not a prisoner had been condemned to death—that is, when the experimental subject arrived in the pressure chamber, was there any way to know whether he had been condemned to death?

A. Once the experimental subjects came from the Bunker, that is, if the SS brought them out, we could always tell they were prisoners who had been condemned to death. When the inmates were sent by the camp leader, and were brought there by him, then we could also tell they were persons who came from the camp, and that they were not persons who had been condemned to death.

Q. Could Romberg know this just as you did?

A. He could only know it if he tried to find out about it, because he could hardly differentiate whether the person concerned came from the Bunker or came from the camps.

Q. But you could tell that yourself?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Romberg ever ask you whether or not these experimental subjects had been condemned to death?

A. I do not remember Romberg ever asking me about that.

Q. Were records kept in the concentration camp which showed whether or not a man had been condemned to death?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know whether Romberg ever checked these records?

A. I do not know that.

Q. You do not know if he ever checked them, is that right?

A. No.

Q. Can you remember, approximately, how many deaths Romberg witnessed during these high-altitude experiments, if any?

A. I can remember five cases where Romberg was present during cases of death; whether he was present on other occasions, I do not know. It is possible, but I am not sure of it.

Q. You are sure of only five cases?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Romberg ever make any objections concerning these deaths?

A. I do not know of Romberg having made any protests against it.

Q. He did not make any protest in your presence?

A. Only at the time when we were concerned with the incident which I spoke of earlier. I do not know anything about anything else.

EXTRACTS FROM THE TESTIMONY OF DEFENDANT RUDOLF BRANDT^[26]

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Dr. Kauffmann: Now I should like to speak to you about Document Book No. 2, concerning the high-altitude experiments of Dr. Rascher. You said this morning that you knew Rascher?

Defendant Rudolf Brandt: Yes.

Q. Did you see him frequently?

A. Very few times in the course of 4 to 5 years.

Q. Did he come to your office and speak with you?

A. Twice when I was about to leave Munich by train, he and his wife brought a letter for Himmler to the station and gave it to me.

Q. And what did he want when he came to Himmler’s front office and saw you?

A. Either he brought a report or a letter; as I said, this could not have happened more than 4 or 5 times.

Q. Were you ever present when Himmler talked with Rascher?

A. No. I was never present at those conferences.

Q. Did Rascher ever tell you personally, either before or after a conference with Himmler, why he had come?

A. No. Afterwards we never spoke about these visits because I had no time for that.

Q. But you do not want to deny that you knew that Rascher was carrying out experiments on human beings in Dachau?

A. Yes, that I knew.

Q. Did you ever visit Dachau yourself?

A. No. I was never in Dachau nor in any other concentration camp.

Q. Did you yourself ever take part in experiments on human beings?

A. No.

Q. Did you see these photographs which are supplements to the document books?

A. I cannot recall ever having seen them.

Q. Now, please turn to page 53. This is a letter from Rascher to Himmler in which he makes suggestions to Himmler for the first time that human being experiments should be carried out in Dachau. In this letter he says that in these experiments he would certainly have to count on fatal consequences for some of the subjects. Do you remember receiving this letter? If not, can you say how you probably would have handled this letter when it came?

A. I do not remember the letter. As in all cases I certainly would have put this letter among the mail that Himmler would read personally, after one glance through it had assured me that it was a medical matter in which Himmler was generally interested.

Dr. Kauffman: We are speaking now, your Honor, of 1602-PS, Prosecution Exhibit 44.

Q. Now, please look at page 57 of the German document book. This is 1582-PS, Prosecution Exhibit 45, a letter from you to Rascher in which you tell him that, of course, prisoners will gladly be made available for high-altitude experimentation. Was this letter written on your own initiative or is it a case similar to all the others that you have brought up here, namely, a letter written on orders from Himmler?

A. This letter does not originate with me. It can be traced back to clear orders from Himmler.

Q. Now, please take a look at 1581-A-PS, Prosecution Exhibit 48, a letter that bears your signature, addressed to Sievers. Here you write that low-pressure experiments are being carried out by the Luftwaffe in Dachau on prisoners there. Then look at the next Document, 1971-A-PS, Prosecution Exhibit 49, a letter from Rascher to Himmler. In the first sentence of this letter there is mention of an enclosed interim report, and there is no doubt that this interim report was enclosed. Now, did you read this interim report?

A. I should assume that I did not because firstly, such medical reports were quite incomprehensible to me as a layman; and, secondly, because of all the work which I had to do, I did not have enough time to concern myself with reports which, first of all, I didn’t understand and, secondly, did not interest me. Thus it is that I put this report in with the mail that Himmler was to read without reading it myself.

Q. Now, please look at 1971-D-PS, Prosecution Exhibit 52, apparently a teletype message from Rascher to you. Here Rascher asks whether Poles and Russians are also to be pardoned if they have survived several severe experiments. In 1971-E-PS, Prosecution Exhibit 53, your answer is to be found, a teletype message to Obersturmfuehrer Schnitzler in Munich. In this letter you say that experimental subjects are not to be pardoned if they are Poles or Russians. This document was given particular stress by the prosecution, and its cruel and atrocious nature was emphasized. Do you remember this document or can you give us any explanation of how it came about that you signed this teletype message?

A. I cannot remember this communication. Of course, I cannot here state under oath whether this is one of those cases in which a teletype message was sent on Himmler’s orders with my signature to it. It is also quite possible that I saw this message and knew its contents and sent it off, after receiving instructions from Himmler.

Q. But I should think that you would still remember a document with such contents today; and yet you say that you do not remember it?

A. No, I do not. In view of the enormous number of orders that I got from Himmler, I could not concern myself enough with the details of each matter in order to be able to remember them for any length of time.

Q. Do you perhaps know whether you discussed this matter with Himmler and then waited for his orders?

A. I cannot say that. I assume that I put the teletype message among his mail and then received his instructions along with all the rest of his orders.

Q. Now, I want to discuss NO-402, Prosecution Exhibit 66. This is a letter to the German Research Institute for Aviation. This letter accompanies a long report, the subject of which is rescuing pilots from high altitudes. Do you have that report now in front of you?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you work on this report or at least give a cursory glance at it?

A. I certainly did not work on it, and I did not even give it a cursory glance, first of all because it is a medical report, and secondly, because it is much too long.

EXTRACTS FROM THE TESTIMONY OF DEFENDANT ROMBERG^[27]

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Dr. Vorwerk: Now, we’ll go back to the point of Rascher’s position in the experiment.

Defendant Romberg: I said that without Rascher there would never have been any intention of carrying out the experiments and it would never have been possible. This can be seen from Himmler’s original assignment. Practical proof of this is the fact that the experiments were stopped immediately when there were difficulties with Rascher’s assignment. This is proved by the letter from Frau Rascher to the Reich Leader SS, dated 24 February 1942. (NO-263, Pros. Ex. 47.) In this letter Frau Rascher writes that there were difficulties of command and that the experiments were stopped; that Rascher had gone back to Schongau. That was the time when I went back to Berlin. Later on when the experiments were actually carried out, Rascher had expressly forbidden me to perform experiments in Dachau without his permission or his presence, so that I never did perform any experiments without Rascher. I always waited until he was there. On the days when he was in Schongau no experiments were performed. Generally, I did not even go to the experimental station. Sometimes I went to write—but certainly never to carry out experiments. This rule, although, of course, it often delayed the work, seemed justified to me because Rascher had permission from Himmler to perform these experiments and was responsible to him for the experimental subjects. Also, I myself was under the authority of the camp at Dachau which seriously restricted my independence, for example, my freedom of movement or talking to prisoners and similar things. Rascher himself, on the other hand, had a very free position on the basis of the powers which he had received from Himmler and because of a special pass. The Dachau camp was under Himmler’s authority. This is shown by the letter from Himmler to Milch of November 1942. (1617-PS, Pros. Ex. 77 (Pros. Ex. 111, Milch Case).) In this letter Himmler spoke of Holzloehner’s conduct and adds that the Dachau camp was under his orders, and Holzloehner would have to submit. It was under these conditions that Rascher took the low-pressure chamber from the SS in Munich and set it up there.

Q. Who took care of the maintenance work on the chamber during the experiments?

A. There was not a great deal of maintenance work necessary; loading the batteries or supplying the oxygen for the experiments was taken care of by Rascher and was probably paid for by the camp.

Q. Was Rascher responsible to you for that?

A. No, Rascher was not responsible to me at all. He was responsible to the Medical Inspectorate because the chamber belonged to them.

Q. Did you have ah opportunity to give Rascher any orders or instructions, or to prohibit anything?

A. No, that can no doubt be seen from what I have already said. I could not give him any orders. I certainly could not forbid him to do anything. Concerning the conduct of these experiments on rescue from high altitudes, I merely had a certain advisory right as is customary for two scientists who are working together on the same task when one of the two has greater knowledge pertinent to the specific task.

Q. You said the experiments began on 22 or 23 February; was that when you saw the experimental subjects for the first time?

A. Yes. On that day I went out to Dachau with Rascher for the first time and met the experimental subjects for the first time.

Q. About how many were there?

A. There were 10 or 12.

Q. Could it have been 5?

A. Five? No, there were certainly more than that.

Q. Could it have been 15?

A. Yes, that is possible.

Q. Did you talk to the experimental subjects on that day before the experiments began?

A. I believe on that day we mostly talked. Whether any proper experiments were done at all on that first day, I don’t remember. At any rate I talked to the experimental subjects and got to know them a little on the first day.

Q. What did you talk about with the experimental subjects?

A. They were quite new surroundings for me, of course. They were all professional criminals who were in custody.

Q. How do you know that?

A. They told me that gradually in the course of conversation. They didn’t, of course, have complete confidence on the first day and did not tell me all about their previous convictions. But after careful inquiries one discovered that they had been condemned for certain crimes, repeatedly convicted, and finally had been condemned to protective custody.

Q. Why did you talk to the experimental subjects on this day?

A. It is quite natural when one begins to work with such a group that a certain personal contact is necessary. We had to get to know each other. I talked to them about their profession, if I may call it that, and of course I told them something about the experiments, what the whole thing was all about, what they themselves had to do to cooperate in the same way as my usual experimental subjects.

Q. Was the reason for this investigation to prepare the subjects for their activity or to check whether these people were actually volunteers?

A. No. It was more to get to know the subjects personally. The situation was this: in the discussion with the camp commandant on the basis of the agreement with Rascher and his authorization from Himmler, a very definite agreement had been reached to the effect that these people were to be selected from the volunteers. Therefore, a clear agreement had been reached on the conditions, about which there could be no doubts basically. When I met the subjects for the first time personally and talked to them about the principle of the experiments and their duties, and so forth, of course I also inquired why they had volunteered—not because of any distrust of the camp commandant, but just for that reason.

Q. You thought, accordingly, that they were volunteers?

A. I didn’t only think they were. They told me so themselves.

Q. How do you know that so definitely for each case?

A. In the course of time—not on the first day but in the course of time—I talked to all of them frequently in some detail, and gradually they told me about their previous convictions and what other prisons and penitentiaries they had been in before they came to the camp, and they also told me the reasons why they had volunteered.

Q. Do you mean to say that all the experimental subjects used for the high-altitude experiments were volunteers?

A. Yes.

Q. Now before these subjects entered the chamber did you prepare them for what they had to do and tell them the significance of the whole thing?

A. Yes, of course. First I explained the whole question to them in broad outline, so that they would know what it was about and what the purpose of the experiment was. In detail I told them specifically what they had to do in the experiments. There was the writing test during which they had to write numbers from 1,000 backwards; then the cardinal point was that after the altitude sickness during the experiments, as soon as they came to, they had to pull the rip cord. We had a handle in the chamber connected to a bell. This was to represent pulling the rip cord of the parachute. This had to be explained to them carefully, otherwise they wouldn’t have understood it and wouldn’t have reacted correctly.

Q. Now, before the experiments began, did you have an electrocardiogram of each separate subject?

A. Yes and again later on.

Q. Please explain that.

A. Rascher had first examined the people to see if they were suitable for the experiments, so there would be no heart defects or anything like that. Then in order to get an exact control, before the beginning of the experiments we took an electrocardiogram of all the subjects. In almost all the experiments the electrocardiograms were registered and at the end, when the experiments were finished, we took another electrocardiogram of all the subjects in order to have material because perhaps even if there was no visible injury, there might still be some effects which could only be determined by such tests.

Q. Now, how long did these experiments on rescue from high altitude last, approximately?

A. Well, they really began on about 10 or 11 March and they lasted until 19 or 20 May.

Q. Following that, you prepared the report which has been submitted by the prosecution?

A. Yes.

Q. In this report you have a sentence saying that during the experiments on rescue from high altitudes there were no deaths and there had been no injury to health; is that correct?

A. Yes, it is correct that that sentence is in the report, and it is also true that there were no deaths or other injuries.

Q. But here in the testimony of the witness Neff you heard that there were deaths?

A. Yes.

Q. What do you have to say about that?

A. In addition to our joint experiments on rescue from high altitudes, Rascher conducted experiments of his own. He did not tell me the exact problem; he merely said that he was performing these experiments for Himmler and that they had to do with explosive decompression sickness and electrocardiograms. He had apparently carried out secret experiments for some time on this problem, but then in my presence he continued them with special subjects. In the course of these experiments the first death occurred at the end of April in my presence. He told me in the course of our conversations that he wanted to qualify as a lecturer on the basis of these experiments which were ordered by Himmler. He wanted to get Dr. Fahrenkamp into it but this cooperation never came about because the experiments were broken off.

Before this death I had no reason to object to the experiments in any way since Rascher was using other subjects and had a separate assignment from Himmler for them. My assignment was to perform the experiments on rescue from high altitudes and I carried it out together with Rascher.

Q. How many deaths took place in your presence?

A. Three.

Q. But Neff spoke of five deaths at which you were present.

A. There could only have been three.

Q. Why could there only have been three?

A. Because I remember. After all they were deaths and they made a definite impression on me; I know it.

Q. Why did death in the low-pressure chamber make such an impression on you?

A. In the innumerable low-pressure-chamber experiments not only performed by us, but everywhere in Germany in other institutes, we never had any deaths at all, and the opinion at that time was that any necessary problem of aviation medicine could be solved without deaths.

Q. Now, how did it happen that you were present at these deaths, since you say these experiments did not belong to your series of experiments?

A. At the beginning of April or in the middle of April, Rascher told me for the first time that he was performing experiments with slow ascension and that he had attempted to work with Fahrenkamp but the work had been interrupted when the latter was sent away. I said that had nothing to do with our experiments and was quite unimportant and uninteresting from our point of view. He admitted that, but said it was a specific question which especially interested him personally and which he had to work on. I did not see these experiments, which according to records here lasted 8 to 10 hours. He probably always performed them on the days I was absent because these 8 to 10 hours would have interfered considerably with our experiments. He expanded these experiments and performed time-reserve experiments at certain altitudes to test the adaptation which he had been testing before in the slow-ascension experiments. This was an experiment in which the subject remains at the same altitude, in contrast to the falling or sinking experiments where the pressure is constantly increased, that is, when the altitude is decreased. As his interim reports show, he extended these experiments to high altitudes and the time reserve was studied either with or without oxygen. The suggestion for this in part came obviously from other work, such as that of Dr. Kliches.

I sometimes observed these experiments. He performed them correctly; he watched the subjects so that there was, in itself, no objection to these experiments. The only thing was that they interfered with our experiments from the point of view of time, and Rascher’s lack of punctuality was a much greater annoyance in this respect. According to the documents, as well as the witness Neff, Rascher apparently had deaths in these experiments. The first deaths were evidently unexpected. In these unexpected deaths the electrocardiogram and the autopsy findings, together with his reports, apparently gave Himmler the idea that these experiments should be carried on further, and in addition that Fahrenkamp should be called in to extend them as far as possible scientifically. The fact that Himmler was covering them apparently induced him in my presence to perform experiments which were dangerous, and in which deaths occurred. The fact that I had been present several times at previous experiments brought about my presence at that fatal experiment, too.

Q. Did you not think it unusual that during an experimental series which you and Rascher were to carry out together, Himmler suddenly gave Rascher orders for special experiments?

A. Yes. I did not have any specific experience in this direction, but on principle it is nothing unusual if when two people are working together on a certain job, one of them receives an additional assignment from his chief to carry out other work on his own. In addition, Rascher was also working in Schongau at the same time on behalf of Luftgau VII. I, myself, had work of my own in the DVL, which my associates were carrying on and which I inquired about when I happened to be in Berlin. No one could dispute the fact that Himmler, as Reich Leader SS and Chief of the German Police and as Rascher’s boss insofar as he was an SS member, had the right to give assignments to his subordinates and to order them to carry out experiments on experimental subjects in a concentration camp.

Q. Now, in your opinion, what is the distinction between your presence at the experiments on rescue from high altitudes and your occasional presence during Rascher’s experiments?

A. In the experiments on rescue from high altitudes I was not merely present. I performed the experiments myself. That is, I called the experimental subjects myself, or sometimes Rascher called them. Of course, then I explained to the people what they had to do, what they had to write, what they had to pay special attention to, and that when they registered the electrocardiogram, in order not to interfere with it, they had to keep still; and then when the experiment had started I directed the experiment myself. I watched the altitude of the mercury indicator, and the calculated speed of ascension and descension, which I checked with the stop watch. Of course, at the same time I observed the subject, in other words, the persons in the experiments. In Rascher’s experiments which were at a certain altitude—that is, the subjects were ascended to a certain altitude and then remained at that altitude—I sometimes watched if I happened to be in the low-pressure chamber, but otherwise he performed these experiments alone just as he did when I was not present. He even laid great stress on performing them alone. It is clear to me now that he did not want me to observe any special results; that is apparently why he performed the other experiments in the evening or when I was away.

Q. After the first death was there an autopsy?

A. Yes, there was an autopsy.

Q. Did you participate in it?

A. No, I did not participate. I was present and I watched the autopsy.

Q. Why did you watch the autopsy if it was not your experiment?

A. Today, of course, it looks different than it did at the time. It was a matter of course for me then. Rascher was a colleague of mine. He had had a fatal accident in his experiments. He asked me to watch the autopsy, and, of course, I went. I also had a quite natural scientific interest in the cause of death, and in the findings, and I admit it frankly, although I am aware of the danger that someone may say I was interested in the death of the person too, but it happens in every hospital; all doctors watch the autopsies. If, for example, in the surgical ward, a patient died after an operation, then the chief physician, or if he had no time, the senior physician, and the other doctors who had nothing specifically to do with the patient, watched the autopsy, and generally even X-ray doctors came over who didn’t know the patient at all. Besides if I had not been present, that would today be considered as an incomprehensible lack of interest in the death—if I had not accepted Rascher’s invitation. If such a death happened during a centrifugal experiment in our institute, if such an accident had happened which was not in my field of work, I certainly would have gone to watch the autopsy. One must learn from the findings; that is one’s duty as a doctor. One has to look at such things so that one can draw one’s own conclusions and be able to avoid subsequent accidents.

Q. Did you see any further autopsies of Rascher?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

A. After this death there was a basic change in my attitude toward Rascher and the plan to break off the experiments, so that in the case of later deaths I was not present because of this attitude. I do not believe he invited me to the autopsies either, and under the conditions in Dachau I could not go there on my own initiative.

Q. Did you ask Rascher how this death came about, or did you warn him before the death?

A. Yes, I have already said I was present at the experiments just as I had sometimes been present at the other series of his experiments, purely out of curiosity, just as in our institute if centrifugal experiments were performed, I sometimes watched them, too. There was no reason for distrust but at that time I just watched the experiments out of curiosity. That was how it happened that I was present by accident at the experiment and looked at the electrocardiogram of this subject. On the screen of the electrocardiograph one can see a little point of light which moves, and that is determined by the heart action. When it seemed to me that it was getting dangerous, that the heart action was lessening, I said to Rascher: “You had better stop now.”

Q. And what did Rascher do?

A. Nothing. He kept that altitude and later death suddenly occurred.

Q. When you observed the electrocardiogram was it quite clear to you that the person would die in the next second?

A. No, of course not. First of all I had never seen a death from high altitude. That was the first one I ever saw. I couldn’t know that, and, in the second place, this death certainly resulted from aero-embolism and, therefore, suddenly. In the third place, the electrocardiogram change was, shall we say, doubtful. I myself would have stopped the experiment at this stage but he didn’t. I only spoke up because I would have stopped the experiment at that moment.

Q. Did you speak to Rascher about this after the experiment?

A. It was not possible for me to object in view of Rascher’s position, but I told him that such things should not happen.

Q. And what else did you do?

A. After this death I went to Berlin and told Ruff about it. Ruff agreed with me that death should not be allowed to occur in high-altitude experiments and it had never occurred before. Since Rascher, however, performed these experiments for Himmler on men who were condemned to death, we saw no way of preventing Rascher after we had made an official report. In general when objections were made Rascher simply referred to the orders from Himmler and to the fact that he was covered by them. It was quite impossible to remove the chamber from Dachau against Himmler’s and Rascher’s will. And to give this death as a reason for removing the chamber was even more impossible. In the first place, Himmler would not have reacted. He would certainly not have given up the chamber. He might have started proceedings for treason or for sabotage of an essential war experiment. In fact, I had reported this to Ruff against my signature to the contrary in a concentration camp. Like every other visitor to a concentration camp I had to sign a statement to the effect that everything I saw and so forth in the camp would be secret. Besides, at the beginning of the experiments Rascher had received a special telegram from Himmler ordering silence about these experiments. A specific obligation to secrecy was strengthened by this order from Himmler. Since I had reported the matter to Ruff against the secrecy obligation, I also had to be covered in this respect, and for this reason again we could not give the death as the reason for removing the chamber from Dachau, aside from the fact it would not have met with success.

Therefore, after some consideration we decided that the only possibility was for Ruff to go to Milch or Hippke and ask to have the chamber removed, giving the excuse that it was needed at the front. On the other hand, I was to conclude our experiments quickly so that Himmler could be told that the experiments were finished and that we could prove this so that we could claim the right to remove the chamber from Dachau. Otherwise Himmler would doubtless have ordered the experiments to be continued until the original goal had been reached, that is, the clarification of the question of rescue from high altitudes, and he would doubtless have gone to Goering or even Hitler and arranged to keep the chamber longer. He would have said that the use of this chamber at the front was unimportant compared to its use at Dachau in the experiments, and he would not have released the chamber.

If I myself had not gone back to Dachau, then Rascher would have carried out the experiments on rescue from high altitudes alone; and he would doubtless also have continued his own experiments. That was the reason why I reluctantly went back to Dachau.

Q. Now, what was the purpose of your trip to Berlin?

A. The purpose was this report to Ruff.

Q. Was that the only purpose?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you explain this trip to Rascher?

A. I told Rascher that I was going because of my wife’s condition. My wife had had a child in March, and that was a good reason for my going to Berlin.

Q. How long were you in Berlin?

A. Only 1 or 2 days; then I went back to Dachau.

Q. Now, before you left did you make sure whether Ruff had done anything in response to your report, whether he had done anything to get the chamber out of Dachau?

A. Yes. Ruff tried to get Hippke but was not able to at that time, so that I really did not know what was going on and what would be accomplished.

Q. Did you notice anything special about the chamber when you came back to Dachau?

A. Yes. When I came back, the barometer was broken, as Neff has already said; and I had to go right back to Berlin to have the barometer repaired.

Q. How long did you stay in Berlin this time?

A. As long as the repair required; about 2 weeks.

Q. Then during this time there were no experiments?

A. No.

Q. When did the experiments begin again?

A. The beginning of May or the middle of May I went back with the repaired apparatus; then we concluded the experiments as quickly as possible.

Q. Did you abbreviate the program which you had planned, or did you change it in any way, or did you keep it the way it was?

A. No. We shortened it. We had fewer experiments at the various altitudes in order to conclude the whole thing as quickly as possible but in such a way that it was actually completed with adequate results.

Q. When was the second death at which you were present?

A. That was a few days after my return to Dachau.

Q. Did the death of the experimental subject occur in a manner similar to the first case?

A. In general, yes. I don’t know exactly what happened. As far as I recall, it was an experiment at a rather high altitude, and death occurred quicker, more suddenly.

Q. And when was the third death at which you were present?

A. That was right after that, on the next day, or the second day.

Q. After these deaths, did you ever have any arguments with Rascher about his experiments and the way in which he performed them?

A. Yes, we had some minor arguments resulting from my objections, which he always refused to accept; but after the third death when I started to object again, he said first that Himmler had ordered it and I wasn’t to interfere. When I later brought the subject up once more, he lost his patience, and we got rather excited. I asked him why he was carrying out these experiments; what he wanted to achieve. He said he wanted to clarify the problem of caisson diseases, that is bends or aero-embolism, because Himmler had ordered it. He was the first man to prove these air bubbles in the blood during an autopsy under water. Also the question of the electrocardiogram in bends and altitude sickness had to be clarified as Himmler had given him a special assignment for it, and Fahrenkamp was to do this work together with him. In addition he wanted to qualify as a professor with Schittenhelm through this work.