Mr. Jenner. Is that your best recollection?
Mrs. Paine. Yes. And I certainly agreed with her.
Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything in response to your delivery of Lee Oswald's message about Marina staying with you, of the possibility of her staying with you, say, the next day?
Mrs. Paine. Nothing of that nature was said. I think I remember that we did discuss whether she had seen Lee during the day, and on that occasion it seems to me I learned that she had seen him around noon but I may be wrong about when I learned that. I knew she had seen him.
Mr. Jenner. Either in that conversation or any other conversation with Marina that you may have had, was the subject of Lee Oswald's attitude or any comments he made mentioned?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Nobody reported to you anything about any conversation they might or did have with Lee Oswald either on the 22d or 23d or even on the 24th of November 1963?
Mrs. Paine. No. I am of the impression I again tried the home telephone of John Abt on Sunday morning, but I am not certain, and there was no answer. That I certainly remember.
Mr. McCloy. Did you ever reach Abt?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Did you ever attempt to report to Lee Oswald that you had been unable to reach Mr. Abt?
Mrs. Paine. Not unless such transpired in our 9:30 conversation Saturday evening, but I made no effort to call the police station itself.
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me?
Mrs. Paine. I made no effort to call the police station.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have at anytime any further conversations with Lee Oswald?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Other than what you have now related?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. McCloy. Did you have any impression as to why he wanted Marina to come back with you? Was it in order to make her available for telephone calls from him or what?
Mrs. Paine. What is distinctly my impression is that he thought she should be available. That it was she wasn't where he could find her that irritated him rather than that he thought this was the best place for her.
Representative Ford. Did you know of Mr. Abt or was this just——
Mrs. Paine. I had never heard of Mr. Abt before.
Representative Ford. Never heard of him?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Senator Cooper. Did Marguerite Oswald explain any further, in the statement you said she made, about having too many obstacles or having obstacles or having troubles?
Mrs. Paine. Are you referring to the statement on Friday night when she was at my home?
Senator Cooper. No. I think you said a few minutes ago when she went to the hotel you called her and told her what Lee Oswald had told you to tell Marina.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Senator Cooper. I think you said she said something about——
Mrs. Paine. "Well, he doesn't understand the things we are up against or things of this nature." What I remember most clearly is that she didn't seem to care whether he was told the truth or not.
Mr. Jenner. What?
Mrs. Paine. Well, that is perhaps a further statement, told the truth about—had it seemed to me a lack of respect on her part. She didn't care what his wishes were in the situation, in other words. And this sticks in my mind.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have any conversation with Robert Oswald on the 22d, subsequent to the time that you met him when he first come to the police station?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Did you on the 23d of November?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. The 24th?
Mrs. Paine. I believe the only other time I saw Robert was some 3 weeks or more later when he came with two other people to pick up the rest of Marina's things.
Mr. Jenner. Then from the 22d of November until he came sometime in December you had no conversation with him and you had not seen him?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. You had no contact at all with him?
Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection. Marina called me around noon on Sunday, the 24th. She said she was with the police, and, of course, this was said in Russian; I don't know whether she meant Secret Service or Irving Police or Dallas Police or what sort, but official. Her husband had already been shot at this time, so it was just after. He had been shot and I had the television on and I knew that.
Representative Ford. Did she know it?
Mrs. Paine. I am certain she did. What makes me certain I can't recall definitely. I felt that she was confining herself in her conversation to the things she just had to say.
Senator Cooper. What did she say?
Mrs. Paine. She was directing me how to find certain things she needed to have. A winter coat, things for the baby, a little purse with some money in it that she left either on top of the dresser or in a drawer in the bedroom where they had stayed.
Mr. Jenner. Did she sound less than cordial——
Mrs. Paine. Oh, no, she sounded, as I recall it, as a call from a woman who was doing her best to simply achieve the things she had to do but was under a tremendous strain.
Mr. Jenner. Was any mention made of the death of her husband?
Mrs. Paine. He was not yet dead, he had been shot but he was not yet dead.
Mr. Jenner. Was any mention made between you in this conversation of the fact that Lee Oswald had been shot?
Mrs. Paine. I don't recall such.
Mr. Jenner. You didn't mention it?
Mrs. Paine. I did not tell her; no.
Mr. Jenner. Did you—it might be natural that you would express sympathy. Did you mention the subject at all, sympathetical or otherwise?
Mrs. Paine. I don't recall mentioning the subject and as I say, I have this distinct feeling that she knew, and I knew she knew but what caused that, I can't identify.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have the feeling, if I may use some vernacular, that she was "under wraps" or rather she was bereft and just seeking to do——
Mrs. Paine. I had no feeling she was restraining herself from saying any particular things.
Mr. Jenner. Was under restraint?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. From some outside source?
Mrs. Paine. I had no such feeling.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mrs. Paine. I then, well, I should say there were one or two officers from the Irving Police Department there who were waiting to take the things that she directed——
Mr. Jenner. The police officers had already arrived at your home?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I guess I remembered it as virtually simultaneous. I might fill in, whether it is important to your inquiry or not, the moment the television announced that Lee Oswald had been shot, an Irving Police patrol car that had been going by my house and had hesitated in front, stopped and the officer got out carrying a rifle and came into my house, closed the curtains and said he was here to protect me. I later learned that he thought Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, was in the house, and he had been directed by his car radio to come in, and he then closed all the blinds and peered out. And it was in the midst of this time that Marina called, so you see the officers were there already on other business.
Mr. Jenner. The officer was in your home when you talked with Marina?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; when Marina made the call.
Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything to the officers that Marina had called when you finished that conversation?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Did you tell them anything of the substance of the call?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; that I was to get some things and I think they had the same information separately a different way from a car radio or something at the same time, which was to put some things together to take to her. I did then pack one or two, or even three of the suit cases we talked about yesterday with baby things.
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You keep referring to one or two or three. Were there as many as three?
Mrs. Paine. I think there were as many as three, including a very small, you might say, cosmetic case, only more, not as fancy as that. This was in her room, and I recall looking in it and seeing a family album of photographs and thinking this had better be in her hands, and included that along with clothes. I sent a childs toy, some things that I thought might be helpful to her in keeping her children happy as well as the individual items she had asked for specifically.
Mr. McCloy. Did you sense any note of estrangement at all between you and Marina when she telephoned you?
Mrs. Paine. No; the situation was strained.
Mr. McCloy. Strained because she hadn't reappeared, you mean?
Mrs. Paine. No; because her husband had been shot.
Mr. McCloy. No; I meant in your conversation with her was there any indication of any coolness between you?
Mrs. Paine. No; none I detected.
Mr. Jenner. Had you noticed any when you were in the police station?
Mrs. Paine. Oh, no.
Mr. Jenner. On the previous day?
Mrs. Paine. Oh, no.
Mr. Jenner. None at all. So that up to the moment of this telephone conversation and after you finished you had no feeling there was any estrangement, any coolness, any change in attitude on the part of Marina toward you as a person?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. McCloy. Have you felt any evidence of that since?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; and that has several parts to it and I could easily go into it now.
Mr. Jenner. I was going to ask her some general questions and Senator Cooper asked me if I would permit her just to go through the day as she has without, with a minimum of, interruptions so that you and he might, and Representative Ford, might ask some general questions before you left, so that is what I have done.
Mr. McCloy. Have you completed your report?
Mrs. Paine. That brings us to the 24th so that all else is really quite post the assassination.
Mr. McCloy. There is one thing I would like to ask before I go, if I may, and that is your husband testified that several times he had moved this blanket when it was in the garage. Can you fix the date when he was in your house and working in the garage so that he was compelled to move the blanket? When did he come to——
Mrs. Paine. He normally came on Friday evening. He would sometimes come on a Sunday afternoon, and either of those times could have been times that he had worked in the garage.
Mr. McCloy. That was all through September, October?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; September, October; yes.
Mr. McCloy. But when he had been working there he never mentioned to you any—about the existence of this blanket, package which he had been compelled to move?
Mrs. Paine. No. That didn't come up until after the assassination.
Mr. McCloy. It didn't come up until after the assassination.
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, you are seeking to refresh your recollection from what document, please?
Mrs. Paine. I am looking at a calendar to see if there is anyway that I can tell when Michael was in the house.
Mr. Jenner. That is Commission exhibit number what?
Mrs. Paine. 401. But it has not helped me in refreshing my memory.
Mr. McCloy. Did you have contacts with the FBI and if so what were they before the assassination?
Mrs. Paine. An FBI agent was out, I have learned since, on November 1. I made no note of the day for myself. Sat down and talked in a relaxed way and for sometime in my living room. He said that the FBI liked to make it plain to people who have been in this country sometime, immigrated from an iron curtain country if they were experiencing any blackmail pressure from their home country, that they were welcome, and invited to discuss it with the FBI if they so choose.
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Marina was present?
Mrs. Paine. Marina was present.
Mr. Jenner. Did she overhear?
Mrs. Paine. I am not certain—I tried to translate some of this conversation, I am not certain how good my translation was or how well I conveyed it, or even if I conveyed it to her.
Mr. Jenner. But you do recall translating some of the conversation to her?
Mrs. Paine. I do recall translating some of the conversation indeed.
Mr. Jenner. Were you at times asked to address Marina to convey something that the FBI agent asked you to convey to her and then to translate in the reverse to him?
Mrs. Paine. I don't recall anything as formal as that; no. The agent and I conversed some in English. He said, for instance, that, well he was interested in knowing if Lee Oswald lived here. I told him he did not, that he had a room in town; he asked if I knew where the room was and I said I did not. He asked if he was working and I said yes, and that he was working at the Texas School Book Depository. I haven't gone over any of this yet, it must have been in conversation with you.
Mr. Jenner. You testified to this yesterday afternoon?
Mrs. Paine. I thought I did. It sounds familiar.
Mr. McCloy. I just wanted to fix for my own benefit the number of times you saw FBI agents prior to the assassination in the company of Marina.
Mr. Jenner. There was a succeeding date?
Mrs. Paine. There was a succeeding date which again I have been told by the FBI was November 5, the first time.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall it was a few days after the first man came?
Mrs. Paine. I recall——
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall it was in your home?
Mrs. Paine. I recall it was in the early part of the week.
Mr. Jenner. Did the same gentleman call?
Mrs. Paine. The same gentleman. He had someone else along.
Mr. Jenner. That was Mr. Hosty, the gentleman whom you now have in mind?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I now know his name as Hosty.
Mr. McCloy. From that you knew that the FBI was still interested in the activity of Oswald?
Mrs. Paine. Oh, indeed.
Mr. McCloy. That is what I want to bring out. I think that is all I have, the questions I have.
Are you going to take up later this estrangement as to how it developed?
Mr. Jenner. Yes; I shall do that this afternoon. Representative Ford has afforded me a list of subjects upon which to make inquiry and I will do so this afternoon. Perhaps Representative Ford and Senator Cooper, you would have some questions of this lady before we adjourn for the luncheon period?
Senator Cooper. Are you going to continue this afternoon?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Senator Cooper. I will postpone mine until this afternoon. I think Mr. McCloy and Congressman Ford have to go.
Representative Ford. Mr. Jenner, I will give you these questions and use those, if any, that are other than what you planned to use yourself. I am a little interested and I would like to hear you tell it, if I could, Mrs. Paine, how much did you know about the finances of Lee and Marina?
Mrs. Paine. It seemed to me they lived on a very small budget. In March of the year, at either the first or second visit with her, she told me she lived on something under, around $200 a month and this was more than they had been, because they had just finished paying a debt that they had incurred for their passage to this country and they were feeling rich on $200 a month, and I could see she was a good planner in what she bought. I could see they seldom, if ever, bought clothes for themselves or even for June. In the fall then Lee never volunteered or gave any money for the cost of her being at my house. He did on one occasion buy a few things at the grocery store for, at Marina's request, which he paid for, and on another occasion I was aware that he had given her some money to buy shoes. Did I mention this previously?
Representative Ford. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Yesterday afternoon you did; yes.
Representative Ford. But even after he gained employment at the Texas School Book Depository and was being paid he never gave her any money for her to contribute to you?
Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.
Representative Ford. Did Marina ever express any concern about this?
Mrs. Paine. Periodically she expressed her embarrassment at having to receive always from me. I tried to convince her how useful and helpful it was to me to have her conversation, but I never felt I had convinced her of that. I would have to say I am guessing that she hoped Lee would contribute. It would have been like her to think that he should.
Mr. Jenner. You gather that from the fact that she did raise the subject occasionally?
Mrs. Paine. Just from the fact that she raised her embarrassment? Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Representative Ford. I think that is all now. Mr. Jenner, you can use those to supplement or as you see fit during the interrogation this afternoon. Thank you.
Mr. McCloy. I have no more questions.
I would like to say this though, perhaps, Mrs. Paine, that you understand we are not trying to punish anybody here. We are not——
Mrs. Paine. I do understand.
Mr. McCloy. This is not a court of law. We are trying to get at the facts. Anything that you can contribute before you complete your testimony which would help us to get the facts we would like to receive, whether it be in the form of hunches or anything that you have, and you must not, I suggest that you don't, assume that merely because we haven't examined you on a particular fact that if there is anything that you do have in mind that you advance it and volunteer it for the benefit of the further security of the country.
Mrs. Paine. I have tried very hard to think of the things that I thought would be useful to you, especially as we had so little time in advance of testifying to help me recall in thinking about it.
Mr. Jenner. May I say, Mr. McCloy, that Mrs. Paine yesterday and the day before, when I had an opportunity to talk with her, she did volunteer several matters of which we had no notice whatsoever. For example, the telephone calls by Lee Harvey Oswald to her, we had not known of that. And the existence of the curtain rods.
Mr. McCloy. Anything that is in the background that you have——
Mrs. Paine. I did want to amend my testimony of yesterday in one small particular. I spoke, indeed, during the testimony I recalled this incident of Lee having gotten into my car, started it, and did the driving from my home to the parking lot where we practiced, pretty much over my objection in a sense but I did not object strongly enough. I said this was about three blocks. That would appear that it was walking distance. It was longer than that.
If you have someone out there in time, why I could go with the person to show just exactly what the distance was.
Representative Ford. What was his reaction when you objected? First, was your objection just oral, was it strong, was it admonition, of what kind?
Mrs. Paine. I felt that, and this is what you are getting at too and I think something we haven't yet discussed, is the matter of what kind of person this was or how I reacted to the kind of person he was. He seemed to me prickly, all sharp points and edgy, and I wished he could be more relaxed and more at ease. I didn't want to confront him with a statement of, "Lee, I didn't want you to start this car and take it yourself", so I simply said, "my father is an insurance man and he certainly would not want me to be permitting you to drive in the street when you don't even have a learner's permit yet, and I will certainly drive it home."
From the time I had first known him he had changed in his attitude toward me, I felt. I felt in the spring he expected to be disliked, that he carried a shell of proud disdain around him to protect himself from human contact, and this was falling away from him at my home.
Mr. Jenner. In the fall you mean?
Mrs. Paine. In the fall of the year, in October and November. He began to appear much more at ease, and as if he had some confidence in how he would be treated. It is a whole subject really.
Representative Ford. Can you give us a little more information on what you said to him and what he, or how he responded in this incident involving the car?
Mrs. Paine. I would say he clearly wanted to do the driving and to drive in the street. I felt that this, my not permitting him to, was one of the things that was helping to get him to the office where he could get a learner's permit, and he was eager to be driving, and to learn to drive on the street.
Representative Ford. Did he just slough off, so to speak, your admonition that he shouldn't drive?
Mrs. Paine. I didn't make it a requirement that he stop right there so he didn't have to stop.
Representative Ford. You just suggested it might be better?
Mrs. Paine. I just made it clear I was uncomfortable and on the way home I would drive.
Mr. McCloy. There is one thing we haven't had testimony about, I imagine, except implicitly.
It is alleged that Lee possessed a .38 caliber revolver. Do you, in the light of hindsight, perhaps, do you have any feeling now that he was secreting that weapon on your premises?
Mrs. Paine. I had no idea that it was there or ever was there.
Mr. McCloy. Nothing now makes you feel that it was there other than the finding of the rifle?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Representative Ford. Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine.
Senator Cooper. The Commission will recess until 2 o'clock today.
(Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the Commission recessed.)
The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.
The Chairman. We will start now. We will continue until Senator Cooper comes and then he will preside the rest of the afternoon. I will be busy with Mr. Rankin some of the time.
Mr. Jenner. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
Mrs. Paine, this morning I was seeking to qualify and introduce in evidence Commission Exhibit 425, which, at the time I had it in my hand, consisted of one page. You called my attention to the fact that it was a letter dated October 14, 1963, to your mother by you in your handwriting, but that you had only given me the first page or sheet, which consists front and reverse of two pages. Then you tendered me the second page or sheet, and indicated some reluctance about the need for its use in this connection.
During the noon recess you have afforded me the possession of the second page, and my recollection is you have voiced no objection to its introduction in evidence.
Mrs. Paine. I have no objection to its introduction. It refers just to personal matters, but if you don't have it, you will have to wonder what it is. It is better not to wonder.
Mr. Jenner. Yes. And it does give the full context of the really pertinent statements that you made in the first two pages and to which you made allusion yesterday in your testimony.
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. I direct your attention to the second sheet, the first of which is numbered three and the reverse side numbered four.
Is the handwriting on both of those sheets yours?
Mrs. Paine. Yes it is.
Mr. Jenner. And it is the third and fourth pages of the letter to which you referred yesterday and again this morning, Commission Exhibit No. 425?
Mrs. Paine. It is.
Mr. Jenner. And that page is in the same condition now as when—that is pages three and four, as when—you dispatched the entire letter to your mother?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chief Justice, I offer Commission Exhibit No. 425 in evidence. It has been heretofore marked.
The Chairman. It may be admitted.
(Commission Exhibit No. 425 was marked and received in evidence.)
Mr. Jenner. There have been marked as Commission's exhibits in this series 451 and 453 to 456, a series of five colored photographs purporting to be photographs of one Curtis La Verne Crafard, taken on the 28th day of November 1963. Mrs. Paine would you be good enough to look at each of those, and after you have looked at them, I wish to ask you a question.
Mrs. Paine. I have looked at them all.
Mr. Jenner. Calling on your recollection of the physiognomy and appearance of Lee Oswald, do you detect a resemblance between the man depicted in those photographs, the exhibit numbers of which I have given, and Lee Oswald?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.
Mr. Jenner. To the best of your present recollection, do you recall whether you have ever seen the person whose features are reflected on those photographs?
Mrs. Paine. No; I have not seen him.
The Chairman. May I see those, please?
Mrs. Paine. Should I say that one picture in particular struck me as looking similar to Lee?
Mr. Jenner. Yes. When the Chief Justice has concluded his examination I will have you pick out that one in particular. Thank you, sir. When you select it will you give the exhibit number which appears on the reverse side?
Mrs. Paine. Exhibit No. 453. Clearly the shoulders are broader than with Lee, but it is a quality about the face that recalls Oswald to my mind.
Mr. Jenner. And the jacket?
Mrs. Paine. And the attire.
Mr. Jenner. The attire that is shown on the exhibit which is the first one you have before you, what is the number of that?
Mrs. Paine. Exhibit 451.
Mr. Jenner. I asked you to describe Lee Oswald, his general attire. Did he normally wear a zipper jacket of the character shown on that exhibit?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And referring to the other photographs, you say that man's attire is similar to that Lee Oswald normally effected and employed.
Mrs. Paine. Yes. It certainly is.
Mr. Jenner. I offer Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456.
The Chairman. They may be admitted.
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456 were received in evidence.)
Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, the Commissioners this morning, had especially directed questions to you evidencing their interest in FBI interviews.
The Chairman. Senator, will you now continue to preside please, so I will be free to work with Mr. Rankin a little this afternoon. I will remain here though for a while.
Mr. Jenner. I gather the first interview by any FBI agent to your knowledge was on the first day of November 1963?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; and I don't really think interview is a fully accurate word.
Mr. Jenner. What word would you like to use?
Mrs. Paine. I felt that the agent stopped to see whether the Oswalds, either Mrs. Oswald or Mr., were living there, and to make the acquaintance of me. He said that he had talked with my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, the previous time.
Mr. Jenner. The pronoun you are using refers to the FBI agent.
Mrs. Paine. He, the FBI agent.
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mrs. Paine. Said that he had inquired of my next door neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, whether the Oswalds lived here, and she had said that she didn't know the last name but knew that the wife of the family was living there, and that there had just been a baby girl born, and that the husband came out some week ends.
Mr. Jenner. Is this what the agent told you?
Mrs. Paine. No, the neighbor told me.
Mr. Jenner. I see. All right.
Mrs. Paine. And I judged he wanted to find out directly.
Mr. Jenner. Had you finished?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Have you subsequently learned the name of the gentleman who interviewed you or conversed with you?
Mrs. Paine. I have subsequently learned his name, yes. It was James Hosty.
The Chairman. What was the name?
Mrs. Paine. James Hosty, H-O-S-T-Y.
Mr. Jenner. I don't wish you to give that full interview again because you touched on it yesterday and again at greater length this morning. But I do wish to ask you with respect to that interview, did you give Agent Hosty the telephone numbers that you had received from Lee Oswald as to where he might be reached in Dallas?
Mrs. Paine. No; I didn't. He asked me if I knew where Lee lived. I did think of these phone numbers, but——
Mr. Jenner. During the course of the——
Mrs. Paine. Or later.
Mr. Jenner. Of the interview?
Mrs. Paine. At least between that time and the time he came again, but I have been impressed with what I have now concluded was a mistaken impression I have which effected my behavior; namely, that the FBI was in possession of a great deal of information, or so I thought, and certainly would find it very easy to find out where Lee Oswald was living. I really didn't believe they didn't know or needed to find out from me. This is a feeling stemming from my understanding of the difficulties they faced working in a free society. I would behave quite differently now, but I have learned a lot from this particular experience.
Mr. Jenner. Now was there a subsequent interview?
Mrs. Paine. There was an interview a few days later, yes, interview to the extent that he came to the door, walked in the door. We didn't as much as sit down. But he asked again about an address. I had none. I did say that I expected——
Mr. Jenner. An address as to where Lee resided?
Mrs. Paine. In town where he resided. I did say that I expected that when Marina moved into an apartment with Lee again, as we all thought would occur, that I would be in contact with her, and that I would be perfectly willing to give him information as to that address when I had such, but that my contact was with her and therefore through that way I would have the address.
Mr. Jenner. Were you again interviewed by telephone or otherwise by any FBI agent prior to November 22, 1963.
Mrs. Paine. I have mentioned two times.
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mrs. Paine. And that was all.
Mr. Jenner. That was all. So up to the time of the assassination, the only interviews with the FBI to your knowledge were on the first?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. You will recall your testimony yesterday, Mrs. Paine, of the incident in which a telephone call was made by you at the request of Marina using the telephone number that has been left with you by Lee Oswald, and your inability to locate him, in fact the person who answered the telephone stated that there was no Lee Oswald living there. Do you recall your testimony on that score?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Did you report that to the FBI?
Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.
Mr. Jenner. You also recall your testimony with respect to the draft of the proposed letter which I think is before you, and that is Commission exhibit number?
Mrs. Paine. 130.
Mr. Jenner. Did you call the FBI and advise them of that incident?
Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.
Mr. Jenner. And without seeking to have you repeat your testimony, were your reasons for not doing so the same as the one that you gave when I asked you whether you had given Agent Hosty the telephone number?
Mrs. Paine. No; not identical. Certainly I didn't think that they had any information of such a letter, whereas I did think they knew where he lived or could easily find out, and of course they could also come to the house and see him at my house as he came on weekends.
Mr. Jenner. You did say to the FBI?
Mrs. Paine. I did.
Mr. Jenner. That he would be at your home on weekends.
Mrs. Paine. And I judged by the fact they didn't come that this was not someone they were terribly worried about talking to immediately. Both this letter, and the telephone conversation really, the one that followed it, where Marina reported to me that he was using a different name, were something new and different in the situation that made me feel this was a man I hadn't accurately perceived before.
I have said my impression in reading the letter was—I have said something similar to this—that of a small boy wanting to get in good with the boys, trying to use words that he thought would please. I didn't know to whom he addressed himself, but it struck me as something out of Pravda in his terminology. And I knew, as I have testified, that several of the statements in it were flatly false, and I wondered about the rest, and then when I heard that he was using a different name, that again was indication of a great disregard for truth on the part of Lee Oswald.
Mr. Jenner. Now what time of day did the interview on November 1 take place?
Mrs. Paine. Afternoon.
Mr. Jenner. Late?
Mrs. Paine. Middle of the afternoon. My memory is there were no children around which means it was nap time.
Mr. Jenner. It couldn't have been along about 5 o'clock in the afternoon?
Mrs. Paine. It was a Friday, wasn't it?
Mr. Jenner. Yes, it was.
Mrs. Paine. And he probably came out that Friday.
Mr. Jenner. You were just telling the agent, you had told the agent, had you not, that he came on weekends.
Mrs. Paine. I did.
Mr. Jenner. And he arrived on Fridays?
Mrs. Paine. I did.
Mr. Jenner. And this was a Friday?
Mrs. Paine. It was, and you will recall yesterday——
Mr. Jenner. And you did tell the agent that?
Mrs. Paine. Yes. It had to have been that session. I know I certainly told him, and it had to have been that time because the second meeting was very brief and had only to do with the address.
Mr. Jenner. And that was not on a Friday?
Mrs. Paine. No; it was not.
Mr. Jenner. Was anything said about the agent remaining because Lee Oswald would be along, he was expected?
Mrs. Paine. No. May I interject here to recall to your mind that as I looked through my calendar trying to find if there was any time, any weekend other than the weekend of October 12, that Lee arrived on a Saturday instead of a Friday, it had to be that weekend by deduction. And I don't recall whether he arrived that Friday evening.
I do recall when he arrived we told him about this meeting and I gave him the piece of paper on which I had written Mr. Hosty's name and the normal telephone number for the FBI in Dallas.
Mr. Jenner. But you recall no conversation. May I suggest this to you as possibly refreshing your recollection. That on that Friday afternoon, which I may say to you now, Mrs. Paine, is reported by Agent Hosty as having taken place on November 1, and he has made his report accordingly, was there any discussion of a suggestion that Lee Oswald would be out that weekend, that is either that you told him he would not be or that he would be, that you would expect him?
Mrs. Paine. My recollection is that I said he came out here on weekends and he could be seen then.
Mr. Jenner. Go ahead.
Mrs. Paine. And I have no recollection of ever thinking he was not going to come that weekend.
Mr. Jenner. You have also testified that you were also advised in advance when he was coming?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. He asked permission. So if he were coming on the 1st of November, that very day, you would have been advised in advance that he was coming, would you not, according to your testimony.
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I would think so.
Mr. Jenner. But you don't recall saying anything to Agent Hosty that he was coming that evening, at least that you expected him to be there.
Mrs. Paine. I may have. I don't specifically recall.
Mr. Jenner. But you do have a recollection that you told him at least generally that Lee Oswald came to your home on weekends?
Mrs. Paine. I feel certain of that.
Mr. Jenner. In any event, Agent Hosty did not remain?
Mrs. Paine. He did not remain. I don't think it was very close to 5 when he left. It was earlier in the afternoon.
Mr. Jenner. You are inclined to think the interview took place earlier in the afternoon, that is prior to 5 o'clock?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; more likely 2 to 3 or 3:30.
Mr. Jenner. During the slumber hours of your children?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Now you are certain in your own mind that you had no interview or no FBI agent interviewed you prior to November 1?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. And if an FBI agent did interview you, you were not aware that you were being interviewed?
Mrs. Paine. That is absolutely correct.
Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection that on October 29, that would be 2 days before the Friday session that you have testified about, that some sales person or purporting to be a sales person or a drummer or somebody came to your door and made some inquiries of you about the Oswalds?
Mrs. Paine. October 29 is a Tuesday. I don't recall any such encounter. Written on my calendar is "Dal" for Dallas "Junie" meaning we went to a clinic in Dallas in the morning. It doesn't say about the rest of the day.
Mr. Jenner. Now when you reported to Lee Oswald the name of the agent and the telephone number, you put that on a slip of paper.
Mrs. Paine. I did.
Mr. Jenner. And handed the slip of paper to him?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr. Jenner. Was there any conversation between you then as to FBI agents having at any time prior thereto interviewed Lee Oswald.
Mrs. Paine. There may have been. I am certainly clear that I was told probably by Marina that he had been interviewed, or by both of them, that he had been interviewed in Fort Worth when they first returned from the Soviet Union. This I knew before the time of the assassination.
Mr. Jenner. Did Marina say whether she had been interviewed in Fort Worth?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. This was only that Lee Oswald had been interviewed at Fort Worth?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. But you recall no conversation in which either Lee or Marina said or intimated to you that they had, either of them had been interviewed either in New Orleans or in Dallas.
Mrs. Paine. Nothing was mentioned of having been interviewed in New Orleans or Dallas.
Mr. Jenner. You made some reference yesterday, and I want to keep it in context, to the license number of the FBI agent.
Mrs. Paine. Not in testimony. Did I?
Mr. Jenner. I thought you had.
Mrs. Paine. Perhaps.
Mr. Jenner. It would be well if we went into that. Would you please recite what that incident was?
Mrs. Paine. I am confused by the question.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the matter of the taking of the agent's license number from his automobile?
Mrs. Paine. I was told by Agent Hosty well after the assassination that they had found in Oswald's room in Dallas a slip of paper which included not only Hosty's name and the telephone number of the FBI in Dallas, but also the license plate number with one letter incorrect, one number incorrect, of the car that Hosty had driven out. This was the first I had heard anything about their having been a license plate.
Mr. Jenner. You did not take——
Mrs. Paine. Number taken down.
Mr. Jenner. You did not take the number down and place it on that piece of paper?
Mrs. Paine. I did not.
Mr. Jenner. Or give it to Lee Harvey Oswald or to Marina?
Mrs. Paine. I did not. I was never at any time interested in the license plate number. I wondered why anyone else would have been.
Mr. Jenner. In any event, the first you heard of the license number was after the assassination?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Under the circumstances you have now related?
Mrs. Paine. I might describe the second meeting with Mr. Hosty a little more in detail.
Mr. Jenner. That is November 1?
Mrs. Paine. That is the only way I can guess as to how this license plate number was in Oswald's room.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mrs. Paine. Hosty and I, and a second agent was with him, I don't know the name, stood at the door of my home and talked briefly, as I have already described, about the address of Oswald in Dallas. Marina was in her room feeding the baby, or busy some way. She came in just as Hosty and I were closing the conversation, and I must say we were both surprised at her entering. He then took his leave immediately, and as he has told me later, drove to the end of my street which curves and then drove back down Fifth Street.
Mr. Jenner. Now you are reporting something agent Hosty has told you?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Were you aware of the fact that he drove to the end of the street?
Mrs. Paine. Not at that time, no. I was aware that he had parked his car out in front of my house. My best judgment is that the license plate was not visible, however, while it was parked; not visible from my house.
Mr. Jenner. Did you see the car?
Mrs. Paine. I saw the car.
Mr. Jenner. Parked?
Mrs. Paine. Yes. I noticed it particularly. Because the first time he had come on the 1st of November, he had parked down the street, and he made reference to the fact that they don't like to draw attention for the neighborhood to any interviews that they make, and in fact my neighbor also commented when she had talked with him a few days previously that his car was parked down the street and wasn't in front of my house. So I noticed the change that he had parked directly in front. But to the best of my recollection, in back of the Oldsmobile of my husband's.
Mr. Jenner. Did you attempt to look to see what his license number was?
Mrs. Paine. What?
Mr. Jenner. Did you attempt to look at his automobile to see what the license number was?
Mrs. Paine. No; nor could I have seen it from my house without my glasses on. I am nearsighted, and I was not wearing them.
Mr. Jenner. But the license plate would have been visible to anybody walking down the street or who desired?
Mrs. Paine. Walking down the street, yes.
Mr. Jenner. Or looking out your garage.
Mrs. Paine. I don't think so, because to the best of my recollection, an Oldsmobile that my husband bought was also in front of the house, so that the cars would have been close at the bumpers.
Mr. Jenner. So the license plates would have been screened by the Oldsmobile?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Have you given us all you have in mind with respect to the incidents?
Mrs. Paine. There is one other thing which is a little different, and I had forgotten it but it is recalled by our conversation. I have already said that I said to Agent Hosty that if in the future Marina and Lee are living together, and I know, or I have correspondence with them I would give him his address if he wished it. Then it was the next day or that evening or sometime shortly thereafter Marina said to me while we were doing dishes that she felt their address was their business. Now my understanding is she doesn't understand English well. The word in Russian for address is "adres," and she made it plain that this was a matter of privacy for them. This surprised me. She had never spoken in this way to me before, and I didn't see that it made any difference.
Mr. Jenner. Did this arise out of, or in connection with, or was it stimulated, by any discussion between the two of you of the visit of Agent Hosty?
Mrs. Paine. So far as I could see, it arose separately.
Mr. Jenner. So far as you can recall?
Mrs. Paine. As far as I can recall.
Mr. Jenner. Did you make any effort to obtain Lee Oswald's address so that you could give it to the FBI?
Mrs. Paine. No. As I have testified, I really thought they had it.
Mr. Jenner. When you made the telephone call to Lee Oswald and learned he apparently was living under an alias, and certainly in that weekend immediately preceding the assassination when the argument occurred between Marina and Lee Oswald on which he upbraided her for having made the call, you still weren't activated to call the FBI and tell them that he was living under an assumed name, is that true?
Mrs. Paine. That is true. I did expect to give this copy which I had made of his "Dear Sirs," letter which you have marked Commission Exhibit 103 to the FBI agent at the next meeting.
Mr. Jenner. At the time he called if he did call?
Mrs. Paine. I thought he would.
Mr. Jenner. During the interview on November 1, you have testified that Marina was present some of the time.
Mrs. Paine. She was present virtually all of that time.
Mr. Jenner. All of the time?
Mrs. Paine. And virtually none of the next time.
Mr. Jenner. Virtually none.
Mrs. Paine. Just came in at the end, on the 5th.
Mr. Jenner. Was she out in the yard? Did you get that impression any time during that second interview?
Mrs. Paine. No; she had to have been in her room the entire time.
Mr. Jenner. Are you firm, reasonably firm that Marina, even if she desired to learn of the license number on Agent Hosty's car, that she could not have seen or detected it while remaining in the house?
Mrs. Paine. She might possibly—oh, I wouldn't say that. It is conceivable, depending on where it was parked, it is conceivable that she could have seen it from the bedroom window.
Mr. Jenner. You are holding up exhibit number?
Mrs. Paine. 430.
Mr. Jenner. And you are pointing to what on that exhibit?
Mrs. Paine. The window of the bedroom which she occupied, which is the southeast bedroom of my house, looks directly out to where I thought the car was parked. From that position, if I am correct about where the car was parked, she couldn't have seen the license plate, but she could have seen it if as Agent Hosty described to me later she saw it while the car was moving along the street.
Mr. Jenner. When he pulled away?
Mrs. Paine. When he pulled away and then he came back and went the other way.
Mr. Jenner. So it is possible that she may have seen the license?
Mrs. Paine. It is possible.
Mr. Jenner. This date that you are now talking about when he parked the car in front of your house, that was November 5?
Mrs. Paine. Yes, it was.
Mr. Jenner. Whereas on November 1, he parked the car down the street.
Mrs. Paine. That is right. I might add a little more detail here if you want it. Marina and I talked about whether to tell Lee that the FBI had been out a second time, and the 5th was a Tuesday. We didn't see Lee until the 8th. She said to me that he had been upset by the FBI's coming out and inquiring about him, and he felt it was interference with his family. And I said there is no reason for him to be upset, or I think conveyed that idea. But the question of whether to tell him was settled by Marina who told him on Friday evening, the 8th, and then Lee inquired of me about that meeting, and he said—I don't think I have yet said for the record—he said to me then he felt the FBI was inhibiting his activities. This is what he said. Has this been said?
Mr. Jenner. Not yet.
Mrs. Paine. All right, I have said it. I said to him "Don't be worried about it. You have your rights to your views, whether they are popular or not." But I could see that he didn't take that view but rather was seriously bothered by their having come out and inquired about him. At this time or another, I don't recall certainly, I asked whether he was worried about losing his job, and he was.
Mr. Jenner. Did he say so, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. Paine. I recall particularly a telephone conversation with him. On one of those in which he called out to talk to Marina, I judge, and perhaps she was busy still changing a baby and I talked. I don't recall the exact circumstances but I do recall it, and I said to him if his views, not any references now to the FBI or their interest in him, but if his political views were interfering with his ability to hold a job, that this might be a matter of interest to the American Civil Liberties Union, that he should in our country have a right to unpopular views or any other kind.
This I believe was after he had been to an American Civil Liberties Union meeting with my husband, that meeting having been October 25.
Mr. Jenner. What was his response?
Mrs. Paine. He was pleased, I felt. He felt in a sense reassured. And indeed I think his response was to join, because it was later reported in the press that he had, which makes me think that this telephone conversation was quite close to the time of the assassination.
Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine——
Mrs. Paine. I am putting in a lot of guesswork.
Mr. Jenner. Am I interrupting you?
Mrs. Paine. No. It is just that I wonder if you want me to dredge this deeply into things I cannot be absolutely certain about.
Mr. Jenner. We would like your best recollection. We do hesitate about speculation.
Mrs. Paine. Indeed.
Mr. Jenner. When we are asking about factual matters. We do ask for your speculation occasionally, but to try to make it quite deliberate when we are asking for that rather than for facts. Have you now stated all that comes to mind with respect to the advice to Lee Oswald of the visit of FBI agents or any discussion with Mr. Oswald at any time while he visited your home during this period in 1963 prior to November 22 with respect to FBI agent visits?
Have you now exhausted your recollection on the subject?
Mrs. Paine. I think one other thing. Agent Hosty asked me, and I am not certain which time, but more likely the second, since so far as I can recall Marina wasn't present, if I thought this was a mental problem, his words referring to Lee Oswald, and I said I didn't understand the mental processes of anyone who could espouse the Marxist philosophy, but that this was far different from saying he was mentally unstable or unable to conduct himself in normal society.
I did tell Lee that this question had been asked. He gave no reply, but more a scoffing laugh, hardly voiced.
Mr. Jenner. Have you now exhausted your recollection?
Mrs. Paine. I have clearly exhausted it.
Senator Cooper. Who asked the question?
Mrs. Paine. Hosty asked the question "Is this a mental problem?"
Senator Cooper. Did you ever hear Oswald express any anger toward either the agents or the FBI, as an agency?
Mrs. Paine. He expressed distinct irritation that he was being bothered. That is how he looked upon it.
Senator Cooper. You said that you thought he was concerned about its effect upon his job, but did he express any emotion other than that?
Mrs. Paine. And he was being inhibited in what he wanted to do.
Senator Cooper. Any irritation or anger because they had interviewed?
Mrs. Paine. In tone of voice, yes.
Senator Cooper. What would it be like?
Mrs. Paine. Well, irritated. He said, "They are trying to inhibit my activities."
Senator Cooper. Did he swear at all?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Senator Cooper. He used no language.
Mrs. Paine. No; he didn't.
Senator Cooper. Did he raise the tone of his voice?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Senator Cooper. Did he show——
Mrs. Paine. Nothing more than an edge to his voice I would say.
Senator Cooper. Did he direct it against any individual FBI agent.
Mrs. Paine. No; he didn't. I have one other recollection that possibly should be put in regarding the conversation with Agent Hosty the first time when Marina was present. We discussed many things, just as you would having coffee in the afternoon with a visitor, and——