Now, that, like I say, that is the last thing I heard over that radio is "Get some men up on that railroad." Now, that could mean they either came from the side, which is due north, or right across in front of him. You know——
Mr. Belin. Well, apart from the statement you testified to that the chief of police made over the radio about the underpass, was there any policeman or patrolman who was in the motorcade who in any way indicated to you that the shots came from the front?
Mr. Baker. No, sir.
Senator Cooper. I would like to ask a couple of questions.
I think you said when you went inside the depository you saw no one except the man you later identified as Oswald, and Mr. Truly. There were two people sitting down on the first floor.
Mr. Baker. As I entered that depository building, I was—people were running toward you, I don't know whether they worked there or whether they were just trying to get out of the way.
Mr. Dulles. From inside the building?
Mr. Baker. No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to my front.
Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door deal.
Senator Cooper. As you went up on the elevator could you see out of the elevator onto floors?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. The best that I could, that is the reason I wasn't paying too much attention to the elevator I was looking around all those floors.
Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone?
Mr. Belin. When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the elevator until he had got up on the stairs.
Senator Cooper. I am aware of that.
Mr. Baker. I was still looking.
Senator Cooper. You went up on the second floor by stairs?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.
Senator Cooper. Then you got on the elevator.
Mr. Belin. No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor.
Senator Cooper. Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into each floor space as you passed from floor to floor?
Mr. Baker. Partly. Now, this building has got pillars in it, you know, and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I could see anybody.
Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone?
Mr. Baker. No, sir.
Senator Cooper. When you looked?
Mr. Baker. Not from the second floor on up.
Senator Cooper. As you approached the building by motorcycle, did you notice whether anyone was looking out of the windows of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. Those windows, I would say a number of them were open and I tell you, to the best of my recollection, I scanned those windows, but I can't recall anybody looking out of them, you know. I looked at all them buildings so much and there were people looking out of every one of them, every doorway and every window, and I really was looking high more at the roof of it than I was anything, and I really didn't see nothing in the windows.
Senator Cooper. I may be repeating because I missed the first part of his testimony.
Mr. Dulles. Go ahead.
Senator Cooper. But when you heard the shot, you said later you saw some pigeons fly up.
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.
Senator Cooper. What was the sequence of time between the time you saw the flight of the pigeons and you heard the shot?
Mr. Baker. As I got that motorcycle straightened up, and I hadn't gone just a very few feet there, it didn't seem like, you know, I went very far, but it is possible I went, we figured maybe 80, 60 to 80 feet there, and I looked up, as the shots started, I immediately looked up, you know. I was already facing ahead and I just kind of raised, I sighted up, and while I was looking up, those other two shots came off, and as I come up, I noticed those pigeons start to fly up there, but I really didn't see which, there were so many of them I couldn't tell which building they were coming from but I know they were all over.
Say you were facing north like Houston they were in the sky facing north in the street.
Senator Cooper. Which way were the pigeons going?
Mr. Baker. They were just coming up, you know.
Senator Cooper. I assume you are a hunter, aren't you, from what you said?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir; I try to be.
Senator Cooper. Have you seen birds in flight when they are suddenly startled?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.
Senator Cooper. Well, was this the character of the flight of pigeons you saw?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir; that is the way it seemed to me, that these birds, you know, just with a sudden uprush.
Senator Cooper. Did you have any notice of anyone saying there might have been a shot from the railroad until you heard the statement over the radio just before you entered the School Book Depository?
Mr. Baker. No, sir; that was the only words that I remember that was said over the radio from the time the shots rang out until I started parking that motorcycle, and when I came off of it I heard those words.
Senator Cooper. Could you see the railroad yards?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir; I could see it—this track ran under this triple underpass to my left, all out behind this building.
Senator Cooper. Did you see anything there which attracted your attention other than——
Mr. Baker. Nothing except——
Senator Cooper. Crowd?
Mr. Baker. There were people all over this track, over this triple underpass, and people just standing all over this sloping bank there, you know, going up.
Senator Cooper. Were there any officers that you saw near the School Book Depository when you went in?
Mr. Baker. There was an officer working traffic on that corner, and Officer J. W. Williams was——
Mr. Dulles. By that corner you mean the corner of Elm and Houston?
Mr. Baker. That is right, sir. J. W. Williams who is a motorcycle officer, was, I thought, over on the left-hand side of me, and he was right with me, but as I ran in this building, I found out that I was by myself. I didn't know where anybody went.
Senator Cooper. Did you later see J. W. Williams, Officer Williams?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. He stated that when the motorcade left with the President, and they immediately went code 3 to Parkland, why he was up there with him and he went up there with him. And I later saw him out there at Parkland.
Mr. Dulles. You testified, I believe, that you did not yourself see the President's car stop. You just were told it was stopped by several other officers?
Mr. Baker. Let me say, as I parked that motorcycle, I looked down there, well, the car had swerved to the left, and I saw this man run out into this crowd and back. I don't know who he was but I saw that and I saw these people following him, and all these pressmen jumping out of their cars and running down the street toward him.
Mr. Belin. Officer Baker, do you know from where this man ran off into the crowd at all or not?
Mr. Baker. Apparently he came from one of the cars right there by the President's car. He was, he came from the motorcade, inside the motorcade out to the sidewalk and then back.
Mr. Belin. All right.
You mentioned the fact that you had gone or come back from deer hunting just prior to November 22, 1963.
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. What kind of a weapon did you have when you went deer hunting?
Mr. Baker. I had one of these .30-06, I believe the Springfield type.
Mr. Belin. Is it a rifle?
Mr. Belin. Automatic or bolt action?
Mr. Baker. Bolt action.
Mr. Belin. How long have you owned a rifle, any rifle?
Mr. Baker. This particular one I have had it approximately 7 years.
Mr. Belin. Have you had much experience to go hunting?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. Every year.
Mr. Belin. Every year you go deer hunting?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. You have had occasion to hear shots from your rifle?
Mr. Baker. That is right, sir.
Mr. Belin. From other rifles?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Did this in any way influence your decisions as to what you did on November 22 as you heard the first sound?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. Belin. In what way did it influence them?
Mr. Baker. To me it was immediately a rifle shot. A lot of the solo officers said they thought it was the backfire from a motorcycle because you can make those motorcycles pop pretty loud. But that instant it just, I don't know, it just hit me as a rifle shot.
Senator Cooper. How long have you been firing a rifle?
Mr. Baker. Say, from the time I was about 17 years old.
Senator Cooper. Have you fired other types of rifles other than the one you used?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir; the first one I had was a 30-30 Marlin lever type.
Senator Cooper. Have you ever seen the rifle that is alleged to have belonged to Lee Oswald?
Mr. Baker. I saw it, a photograph of it, in the newspaper.
Senator Cooper. Do you know what kind of rifle it is?
Mr. Baker. Not offhand. I heard it was some foreign make gun. Most of the boys down there at the police department have had dealings with foreign type guns, rifles, you know of this kind, and a lot of them sell them, and a lot of them rework them, you know, make them into deer rifles.
Senator Cooper. What were the characteristics of the report that you heard, three reports, which made you believe that it was a shot from a rifle?
Mr. Baker. Well, they were too distinct, you know, to be—I have heard that pop from that motorcycle and I have heard rifle shots, and to me there was just a difference in them.
Mr. Belin. Officer Baker, did it appear to you that these sounds that you heard were from the same rifle or from possibly more than one rifle?
Mr. Baker. I would say they was from the same rifle.
Mr. Belin. Did it appear that the sounds all came from the same source?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. With regard to the closeness of these sounds together, how fast they came, did it appear that it came from or that it could have come from a weapon that had to be operated by bolt action as opposed to a semiautomatic or an automatic weapon?
Mr. Baker. It seemed to me like you could either fire a semi or bolt action in about the same time.
Mr. Belin. Have you had occasion to use a bolt action rifle and fire shots quickly one after the other?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. Belin. Did it appear that, from what you heard, that from your experience you could have operated your own bolt action rifle as quickly as those shots came?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.
Senator Cooper. If you made any judgment, what was the length of time from the time you heard the first report until you heard the third?
Mr. Baker. I would say just about as fast as you could bolt one of those bolt action rifles which wouldn't be—I don't believe it would be over 3 seconds apart.
Mr. Baker. Three seconds apart.
Mr. Belin. From each shot?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Three seconds from the first to the second and another 3 seconds from the second to the third?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. You are saying not over 3 seconds?
Mr. Baker. Not over 3 seconds.
Mr. Dulles. Any further questions?
Thank you very much, Officer Baker. Your testimony has been very helpful. (At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)
Mr. Dulles. Mrs. Reid, the Chief Justice had to leave a few moments and he expressed his regret to you.
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Dulles. So I am presiding over the Commission at the present time.
As you possibly have been informed, the purpose of the testimony this morning has been to hear the testimony of Officer Baker, yourself, and certain others who were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of the President, and we will ask you give testimony in that connection and anything else you may know.
Would you please rise, Mrs. Reid, and hold up your right hand.
Do you swear the testimony you will give before this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you God, and nothing but the truth?
Mrs. Reid. I do.
Mr. Dulles. Mr. Belin will carry forward the interrogation.
Mr. Belin. We met in Dallas on Friday, March 20.
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Mrs. Reid, could you state your name for the Commission, please?
Mrs. Reid. Mrs. Robert A. Reid.
Mr. Belin. That is R-e-i-d?
Mrs. Reid. R-e-i-d, that is right.
Mr. Belin. Where do you live, Mrs. Reid?
Mrs. Reid. 1914 Elmwood Boulevard, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. Belin. And are you originally from Dallas?
Mrs. Reid. Well, I have been for quite a number of years. I was born out in a little town out from Dallas, Cereal, Tex.
Mr. Belin. How long did you go to school in Dallas? Did you go through high school?
Mrs. Reid. I completed high school there and I married and went to Waxahachie and lived there about 15 years and moved back to Dallas then.
Mr. Belin. Do you have any family, Mrs. Reid?
Mrs. Reid. You mean like sisters or my children?
Mr. Belin. Well, children.
Mrs. Reid. Both, I have six sisters and I have two children and a grandchild.
Mr. Belin. You have a grandchild?
Mrs. Reid. And a husband, and a family.
Mr. Belin. What is your occupation, Mrs. Reid?
Mrs. Reid. I am a clerical supervisor.
Mr. Belin. For what company?
Mrs. Reid. Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. Belin. How long have you worked for the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. Reid. I have been 7 years.
Mr. Belin. Have you been a clerical supervisor all the time?
Mrs. Reid. No; I started out in the department on what they call their postage desk and I was appointed to a clerical supervisor.
Mr. Belin. Mrs. Reid, I am taking you to November 22, 1963.
Mrs. Reid. All right.
Mr. Belin. Where were you on that day commencing with, say, around noon or so?
Mrs. Reid. Well, at 12 I went to lunch, and I had my lunch rather hurriedly so that I might go downstairs and watch the parade.
Mr. Belin. Mrs. Reid, you say you ate your lunch?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; I did.
Mr. Belin. Where did you eat your lunch?
Mrs. Reid. In our lunchroom, in the lunchroom.
Mr. Belin. Where is that?
Mrs. Reid. Well——
Mr. Belin. On what floor?
Mrs. Reid. On two, the same floor as our office.
Mr. Belin. That is on the second floor?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Did you buy your lunch or bring your lunch?
Mrs. Reid. No; I brought my lunch.
Mr. Belin. Was there anyone in the lunchroom when you were eating lunch?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember who was there?
Mrs. Reid. Well, the girls that work under me, the young ladies, goodness, it is all hard for me to remember how many there were, but the general ones that usually eat there with me every day.
Mr. Belin. On Commission Exhibit 497, is this room, this lunchroom, the one that is marked "lunchroom" here with the numbers 25 and 26 in it?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. And that is where you ate?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. And on Commission Exhibit 497 do you work on the second floor also?
Mrs. Reid. I do.
Mr. Belin. In the area marked with the room "office space," somewhere in that room?
Mrs. Reid. Over here.
Mr. Belin. You say you work over near the dumbwaiter which is marked?
Mrs. Reid. My desk——
Mr. Belin. Your desk is near the dumbwaiter on Exhibit 497.
Mr. Dulles. That is the desk there, is it?
Mr. Belin. That is the dumbwaiter.
Mr. Dulles. Oh, yes.
Mr. Belin. Now, Mrs. Reid, you left lunch about what time?
Mrs. Reid. Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late. But I went down rather soon and stood on the steps.
Mr. Dulles. Where was your husband working?
Mrs. Reid. He works for the records building.
Mr. Belin. Where is that located?
Mrs. Reid. Well, it is off the left-hand side, kind of cater-cornered across from our building.
Mr. Belin. The records building has one side of it on Elm Street running from Houston to Record Street?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. And I believe it is on, it would run on, the south side of Elm?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Is that correct?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15?
Mrs. Reid. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there.
Mr. Belin. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?
Mrs. Reid. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone.
Mr. Belin. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?
Mrs. Reid. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.
Mr. Belin. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. Reid. I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. Belin. All right.
Mrs. Reid. I can't remember the time they left.
Mr. Belin. Now, you went out from the lunchroom; turning to Exhibit 497, you went from the lunchroom through the door, which would be the west door, and then through the doorway marked number 23 on the exhibit there or did you instead go to the front?
Mrs. Reid. No; I came back through the office.
Mr. Belin. You didn't go through the door marked 24?
Mrs. Reid. No; I did not.
Mr. Belin. You came out through this first door of the lunchroom?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. And then you turned which way?
Mrs. Reid. Turned this way.
Mr. Belin. You turned to your left and went through the door which is between numbers 27 and 28?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. On Exhibit 497, and you went back to your office. Did you go by your desk?
Mrs. Reid. I am sure I did because I usually leave my purse in there until I get ready to go out and then pick it up.
Mr. Belin. All right. You walked toward the number marked 29 on Exhibit 497?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Then where did you walk?
Mrs. Reid. I came over here and got my jacket and scarf out of the closet.
Mr. Belin. All right.
You are now pointing to the closet on Exhibit 497 which would be located on the east side of the building?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Toward the front. Then what did you do?
Mrs. Reid. I came and went out this door.
Mr. Belin. You are, you went out the door which is marked on Exhibit 497 as room 200, is that correct?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. What did you do?
Mrs. Reid. I got on the elevator.
Mr. Belin. Now, there is an elevator along the east wall toward the front of the building, is that correct?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Is this a freight or passenger?
Mrs. Reid. It is a passenger.
Mr. Belin. Do you know how far this elevator goes or how high?
Mrs. Reid. Fourth floor.
Mr. Belin. Fourth floor. You got on the elevator on the second floor?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?
Mrs. Reid. Came down on the first floor.
Mr. Belin. Then you came on the first floor.
Mrs. Reid. Went out the front door of our building.
Mr. Belin. Went out the front door.
Mrs. Reid. I stood on the steps for several minutes.
Mrs. Belin. All right.
Mrs. Reid. Shall I continue?
Mrs. Reid. Until I saw the parade coming around the corner from Main and Houston and when I did I walked out to the street so I would be nearer to the people, and I walked out and was standing by Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell.
Mr. Belin. All right. This was in front of the steps, ma'am?
Mrs. Reid. Well, no; I had gone out directly in the front but I had gotten nearer to the street than the steps.
Mr. Belin. You were actually onto the street then as the motorcade came by?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; that is right. There is a part in there where our streets, one goes this way and one kind of goes off this way, and the line of parade they were going that way and I got right on the curb and was standing there.
Mr. Belin. Well, turning to Exhibit 361, the top of Exhibit 361 faces south and this is Houston Street, here is the School Book Depository Building that I am pointing to.
Can you give any estimate as to where you were with relation to this, well, I will call it a peninsula of land between the parkway and the building.
Mrs. Reid. You have got me turned around.
Mr. Belin. The parade was coming along Houston.
Mrs. Reid. I was standing about along in here, in here.
Mr. Belin. You were standing a little bit to the north of the spot marked "B" on Exhibit 361.
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. And you would be directly in front of the main entrance of the School Book Depository, is that correct?
Mrs. Reid. That is correct.
Mr. Belin. Now, by "B" I am referring to, on Exhibit 361, I am referring to the pen ink—pen and ink "B" which is directly to the east of what I will call the traffic light on that peninsula of land as Elm goes into the parkway there. All right, what did you see?
Mrs. Reid. You mean when I was standing there?
Mr. Belin. What did you see and hear and do?
Mrs. Reid. Well, I was naturally watching for the car as the President came by. I looked at him and I was very anxious to see Mrs. Kennedy, I looked at her and I was going to see how she was dressed and she was dressed very attractive and she put up her hand to her hat and was holding it on, the wind was blowing a little bit and then went on right on by me and that is the last as far as the parade, I mean as far as they were concerned.
I did see Johnson, and that was it. I can't even tell you any more about the parade because after the shots I didn't know any part about that.
Mr. Belin. What did you see and hear and do after that?
Mrs. Reid. Well, when I heard—I heard three shots.
Mr. Belin. You heard three shots?
Mrs. Reid. And I turned to Mr. Campbell and I said, "Oh, my goodness, I am afraid those came from our building," because it seemed like they came just so directly over my head, and then I looked up in the windows, and saw three colored boys up there, I only recognized one because I didn't know the rest of them so well.
Mr. Belin. Which one did you know?
Mrs. Reid. James Jarman.
Mr. Belin. You recognized James Jarman?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; because I had had some dealings with him in the business part and I knew him. I couldn't have told you the other two at all because I didn't know them.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember that floor you saw them on?
Mrs. Reid. Well, I wasn't exactly looking at the floor, I don't know, I would say a couple of floors up. I mean several anyway. I don't know exactly.
Mr. Belin. You don't remember which floor it was.
Mrs. Reid. I couldn't tell you because, you know, I didn't count the floors and I didn't count them, and I made the statement "Oh, I hope they don't think any of our boys have done this" and I had no thoughts of anything like that. I turned and went back in the building.
Mr. Belin. All right. Now, let me ask you this then.
Mr. Belin. Before you turned and went back into the building did you—did Mr. Campbell say anything to you?
Mrs. Reid. He said, "Oh, Mrs. Reid, no, it came from the grassy area down this way," and that was the last I said to him.
Mr. Belin. All right. When he said "this way" which direction was he pointing?
Mrs. Reid. Well, I hope I get my directions. In the direction of the parade was going, in the bottom of that direction.
Mr. Belin. Now, did you look around after the shots and notice what people were doing?
Mrs. Reid. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my goodness I must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more. And don't ask me why I went into the building because I don't know.
Mr. Belin. Did you see anything else of people running or doing anything else?
Mrs. Reid. No; because I ran into the building. I do not recall seeing anyone in the lobby. I ran up to our office.
Mr. Belin. All right.
Mr. Dulles. Just 1 second there. How long after the third shot did you run into the building?
Mr. Belin. Mr. Dulles, we did a reconstruction on that time sequence on Friday and I am going to come to that as soon as I get the route first.
Mr. Dulles. Right.
Mr. Belin. You went into the building in the main lobby?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; I did.
Mr. Belin. Did you take the elevator or the stairs?
Mrs. Reid. No; I went up the stairs.
Mr. Belin. Was this the front stairs or the back stairs?
Mrs. Reid. No; the front stairs.
Mr. Belin. All right. You went up through the stairs and then what did you do?
Mrs. Reid. I went into the office.
Mr. Belin. You went into your office?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. And then what did you do?
Mrs. Reid. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him."
He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else.
Mr. Belin. When you saw him, I believe you said you first saw him when he was coming through the door?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Turning to Exhibit 497, what doorway was it where you first saw him?
Mrs. Reid. Right here.
Mr. Belin. You are pointing to the doorway between numbers 27 and 28?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. On Exhibit 497?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Where were you when you saw him in that doorway?
Mrs. Reid. I was coming right through here.
Mr. Belin. You are pointing to what number there?
Mrs. Reid. Well, it is 29.
Mr. Belin. 29. And then about where were you when you actually passed him or had this exchange?
Mrs. Reid. Right along here. I passed my desk.
Mr. Belin. Why don't you put on Exhibit 496 an "X" as to where you were when you thought you passed him.
Mrs. Reid. Here.
Mr. Belin. I wonder if you would put the initial "R" which we will put for Mrs. Reid.
Mrs. Reid. All right.
Mr. Belin. By the "X" and that is where you were when you passed him.
On March 20 you and I met for the first time, didn't we, Mrs. Reid?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. We sat down and I asked you to tell me what happened and you related the story. Did I keep on questioning you or did you tell me what happened?
Mrs. Reid. Well, I more or less told you what had happened.
Mr. Belin. All right. Then we went out on the street, did we not, in front of the building, with a stopwatch, do you remember that?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; I surely do. It was kind of cool.
Mr. Belin. It was kind of cool wasn't it, and a little bit windy.
Mrs. Reid. Yes; it was; yes.
Mr. Belin. And when in Dallas, we started the stopwatch from the time that the last shot was fired, is that correct?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. And then you went through your actions, what you saw, your conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the building and up to the point that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you?
Mrs. Reid. Approximately 2 minutes.
Mr. Dulles. I didn't hear you.
Mrs. Reid. Two minutes.
Mr. Belin. From the time of the last shot the time you and Oswald crossed?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; I believe that is the way we timed it.
Mr. Belin. When you—you saw me start the stopwatch and you saw me stop it there, right?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. When you met in the lunchroom——
Mrs. Reid. I didn't meet him in the lunchroom.
Mr. Belin. Pardon me, when you met in the office, which direction were you going, looking toward Exhibit 497, as you look on it, which direction were you going toward the left or right?
Mrs. Reid. You mean as I came in the office? I turned in and turned to my left.
Mr. Belin. That would be heading in a westerly direction is that right?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. What direction was Oswald walking?
Mrs. Reid. He was going east.
Mr. Belin. Did you see him actually walk through or coming through the door there?
Mrs. Reid. He had just gotten to the door, was stepping in as I glanced up.
Mr. Belin. He was stepping in as you glanced up?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Had you ever—you said, I will put it this way, had you ever seen Oswald in that second floor office space before apart from the time of getting his pay?
Mrs. Reid. Well, one other time he came in, now he might have been in to get that change for this time but I didn't see him going up there, and he made a remark to one of the girls back there and she said, "Well, he sure is calm." And I said, "What did he say to you?"
And she says, "I have a baby," and he stopped and I said, "Well, he is pretty calm just having a new baby," and outside of that I never remember seeing him other than to come in to get change.
Mr. Belin. What about the other men in the warehouse, did they have occasion to come into that office space?
Mrs. Reid. Occasionally they come up to get change.
Mr. Belin. Apart from getting change or getting paid?
Mrs. Reid. No; very seldom unless they are sent up there to get something. I mean they just don't come in there and wander around. It is some business for them.
Now, I did see him in the lunchroom a few times prior to this eating his lunch but I didn't even know his name.
Mr. Belin. Did you know his name on the day you saw him?
Mrs. Reid. No; I did not. When I saw his picture I still didn't know his name until they told us who it was.
Mr. Belin. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on the second floor?
Mrs. Reid. Because it looked just like him.
Mr. Belin. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. Reid. Oh, yes.
Mr. Belin. But you had seen him in the building?
Mrs. Reid. Other than that day, sure.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. Reid. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Belin. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?
Mrs. Reid. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. Reid. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.
Mr. Belin. Have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to Commission Exhibit 150 or do you know?
Mrs. Reid. No; I do not. I have never, so far as I know ever seen that shirt. I have been asked about that shirt before, I have seen it once before but not since all this happened.
Mr. Belin. All right. Mrs. Reid, if a person were in the lunchroom with a coke on the second floor, and then wanted to get to the front stairway or front elevator, would there be only one route to get there or would there be more than one?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; he could either go around this hallway, or back here in this hallway or he could have gotten through our office or——
Mr. Belin. All right.
I wonder if in the first hallway you could mark route 1 there so we have it on 496.
Mrs. Reid. Does it matter?
Mr. Belin. That is fine.
Mrs. Reid. You said the front stairway, too?
Mr. Belin. That is the front stairway. You have put a number 1, I am going to put "R-1".
Mrs. Reid. All right.
Mr. Belin. And that will be one hallway to go down to get from the lunchroom to the front stairway?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Now, would there be another way to get there?
Mrs. Reid. He can come through the office.
Mr. Belin. You could come through the office?
Mr. Belin. Which is the way Lee Harvey Oswald was walking?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Would any one way be faster than the other or not?
Mrs. Reid. It couldn't be very much faster because it is practically the same distance here that it is here and you have got this hallway there.
Mr. Belin. So, either "R-1" or going through the office marked 29 would be approximately the same?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Now, where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald is there kind of a pathway through there without any obstructions for desks?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; there is, sort of a passageway.
Mr. Belin. You passed at point what you have marked with an "X"?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Is that correct?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. With an "R" and "X" to it?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Did Lee Harvey Oswald walk past you?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; he did.
Mr. Belin. Kept on walking in the same direction?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. How far did you see him go?
Mrs. Reid. I didn't turn around to look. He went on straight, he did not go on past the back door because I was facing that way. What he did after that——
Mr. Belin. But you know he did not go out the same back door he came in?
Mrs. Reid. No; he did not.
Mr. Belin. Do you know whether or not he went into the conference room?
Mrs. Reid. Well, I wouldn't think he did because this door off here was locked and I had unlocked it for the policeman myself.
Mr. Belin. All right, let's put an arrow here to the door that you say was locked, and we will put—do you want to put in the word "locked" in there, if you would, please?
Mrs. Reid. All right.
Mr. Dulles. On which side was it locked or did you take the key away, was it locked so that you——
Mrs. Reid. I would go in from this way. I wasn't going in from our office into the conference room.
Mr. Dulles. And you locked that door?
Mrs. Reid. We did. They had asked me, I went in there with the policeman into the conference room.
Mr. Dulles. Did you take the key?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, sir; I did, I got it for Mr. Williams.
Mr. Dulles. No; I mean after you locked the door do you leave the key in the lock?
Mrs. Reid. No.
Mr. Belin. What I want to know is this, Mrs. Reid. When you came back up into the building after the shooting and you walked into the conference room, at that time was the door which you have marked "locked," was it locked at that time when you came in?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, sir; it was to—it was locked when I got to it, I will say that.
Mr. Belin. Let me ask you this. Had you been the one who had locked it before or don't you know?
Mrs. Reid. Oh, no, I couldn't say that because too many people used the conference room.
I would have no way of knowing who locked it or if it is left unlocked. The porter locks it in the evening.
Mr. Belin. All right.
If one is locking that door with a key do you lock the door from the inside of the conference room?
Mrs. Reid. Either way.
Mr. Belin. Or the outside, either way?
Mrs. Reid. Either way.
Mr. Belin. Who has custody of the key?
Mrs. Reid. I got that from Mr. Williams' desk, because that is where I got it from, and then the porter has one. I could not say. They all have the keys.
Mr. Belin. When did you get it to unlock the door?
Mrs. Reid. Well, by the time the policeman got there and started searching our floor. I can't recall whether I had taken him into the lounge first because they had me to go in there with him, the ladies' lounge, or whether they went in there because there is a little stand in here that Mr. Cason uses when we have a conference, and he jerked it back because it would have been humanly possible for a person to have gotten in there, but it was up against the wall and there was no one there.
Mr. Belin. Would this have been more or less than 5 minutes after you got back in the building that you opened the lounge?
Mrs. Reid. That is where you all get me in this time because I was not watching the clock that day.
Mr. Belin. That is all right.
Mrs. Reid. Time really didn't mean anything to us because they, the police officers, just came in on us and began to ask so many questions.
Mr. Belin. When you were at point "RX" and moving, if someone would have walked into the conference room would you have heard him in any way?
Mrs. Reid. I could have heard him open the door.
Mr. Belin. You could hear them open the door. During the time, the period of time you were there and saw Lee Harvey Oswald, did you hear anyone open the door to the conference room?
Mrs. Reid. I do not recall any.
Mr. Belin. From your best judgment, if Lee Harvey Oswald didn't go into the conference room and didn't go back to the door marked around between 27 and 28, how would he have gotten out of the office?
Mrs. Reid. Right straight out this door down this stairway and out the front door.
Mr. Belin. You are saying right down the hallway in the direction in which the arrow number 29 is pointing?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Down through the hall and down through the front stairway.
Have you ever talked to anyone there who ever saw Lee Harvey Oswald leave the building?
Mrs. Reid. No; I haven't.
Mr. Belin. Do you know of your own personal knowledge how he got out of the building?
Mrs. Reid. No; I do not, I do not. I have no idea.
Mr. Belin. Mrs. Reid, did you notice whether or not the man you ran into on the second floor whom you now identify as Lee Harvey Oswald was carrying anything in either arm other than a coke?
Mrs. Reid. No.
Mr. Belin. Was the coke full or empty?
Mrs. Reid. It was full.
Mr. Belin. It was full.
Was there anything else you noticed about him?
Mrs. Reid. No.
Mr. Belin. Anything about the expression on his face?
Mrs. Reid. No; just calm.
Mr. Belin. Anything about whether or not his clothes were clean or dirty?
Mrs. Reid. Well, they were clean.
Mr. Belin. Anything about whether or not his hair was combed or mussed?
Mrs. Reid. No; I did not. There wasn't anything unusual.
Mr. Belin. You say he mumbled something?
Mrs. Reid. He did.
Mr. Belin. Could you even remember one word that he mumbled?
Mrs. Reid. I did not because he kept moving and I did, too, and I was just not interested in what he was saying, it was just the excitement of time and I didn't even say, "What did you say?" because I wasn't interested.
Mr. Dulles. Was he moving fast?
Mrs. Reid. No; because he was moving at a very slow pace, I never did see him moving fast at any time.
Mr. Belin. He was moving just at his normal walk?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember whether he was wearing any pieces of jewelry like a watch or bracelet or ring or something?
Mrs. Reid. No; I do not remember that.
Mr. Belin. Mrs. Reid, did you ever have any personal contact with Lee Harvey Oswald about such things as his paycheck or anything like that?
Mrs. Reid. No; I did not.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember what hand he was carrying his coke in?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. In what hand?
Mrs. Reid. In his right hand.
Mr. Belin. Mrs. Reid, we thank you very much.
Mr. Dulles. Just one moment.
Mr. Belin. Pardon me, do you have a question, sir?
Mr. Dulles. How many times do you think you saw Mr. Oswald during the period he was employed?
Mrs. Reid. My goodness.
Mr. Dulles. Roughly.
Mrs. Reid. It couldn't have been——
Mr. Dulles. Five times, 10 times?
Mrs. Reid. I would say five times. At times I would go down to Mr. Truly's office for some business. I would see him across the floor, but he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate lunch up there but he never talked to anyone.
Mr. Dulles. Never talked to anyone?
Mrs. Reid. And he was usually reading, I noticed that.
Mr. Dulles. Did he seem to repel ordinary conversational attempts or didn't you try that?
Mrs. Reid. I never did try it, I never did.
Mr. Dulles. You never tried it.
Mrs. Reid. He seemed to be interested in what he was doing, I would never see anyone talking to him at all in the lunchroom so far as I can recall, not any time.
Mr. Dulles. Who in the organization so far as you know would have handled his paychecks?
Mrs. Reid. Mr. Campbell.
Mr. Dulles. Campbell would have handled his paychecks.
Mrs. Reid. He makes them out and then he sends them to Mr. Truly and I am sure he distributes it to his employees.
Mr. Belin. Two questions, Mrs. Reid.
Mrs. Reid. All right.
Mr. Belin. When we reconstructed your actions on Friday, March 20, which you said it took about 2 minutes, would you say that this was a maximum or minimum time?
Mrs. Reid. Well, it wasn't any less than that I am sure because 2 minutes time——
Mr. Belin. Did we kind of run?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, we did, three times.
Mr. Belin. Three times.
Mrs. Reid. I remember that.
Mr. Belin. And we were both huffing and puffing?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, we were. I know I was that day, I think.
Mr. Belin. Mrs. Reid, since the tragedy of November 22, have there been any discussions that you have heard among any employees which might relate to the character insofar as the personal habits or what-have-you of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. Reid. The only thing I have heard anybody say was he never talked to anybody, he always went about his business, that is the only thing I heard the employees say.
Mr. Belin. Did you ever hear anyone say that he might have been friendly with at least one other employee?
Mrs. Reid. No; I have not.
Mr. Dulles. Did the employees discuss him at all among themselves?
Mrs. Reid. You mean prior to this?
Mr. Dulles. Prior, during the period he was employed there?
Mrs. Reid. No.
Mr. Dulles. At the Book Depository?
Mrs. Reid. I never heard it.
Mr. Dulles. They did not discuss him in your presence, the office employees?
Mrs. Reid. Well, the office employees and the warehouse employees are not connected. We talk to them, naturally some of them have been there a long time.
Mr. Dulles. Was it your usual practice to take lunch in the lunchroom on the second floor?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, it is; every day.
Mr. Dulles. Do you recall whether it was Lee Harvey Oswald's usual practice or how many times possibly you saw him there at lunch with you and the others?
Mrs. Reid. You mean did he come up every day? No, he did not.
Mr. Dulles. Would you think he came up half the days or could you give any—half the working days?
Mrs. Reid. No; I wouldn't say he came that often. I can't recall seeing him up there but three times. We have said since then, since he sat there and didn't say anything and was reading we have often wondered what we discussed before him because we all have a general conversation every day at noon but I don't know we would have said anything that interested him.