Mr. Jarman. No, sir.
The Chairman. When did you first come to the conclusion that any of the shots came from up above you?
Mr. Jarman. After we had ran down to this last window on the west side of the building, and we was discussing it. And then after I got to thinking about all the debris on Bonnie Ray's head, and I thought about that, also. And so I told Hank, I say, "That shot probably did come from upstairs, up over us," and Hank said, "I know it did, because I could hear the action of the bolt, and I could hear the cartridges drop on the floor."
And I told him there we better get the hell from up here.
The Chairman. Now, tell me, when you went downstairs—when you were downstairs and went out the first time, that is, just before you met Brennan, did anyone stop you as you went out the building?
Mr. Jarman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You could have gone right away if you wanted to, could you?
Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And then you happened to run across Brennan, and had this conversation with him?
Mr. Jarman. No. He ran up to the police officer and was telling him about the man sticking a gun out the window. And I heard him telling the officer that.
And I told him that I thought the shots came from inside, too.
The Chairman. I see.
Are you a married man?
Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you have a family?
Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir; three children.
The Chairman. I think that is all.
Thank you very much for coming and helping us out. We appreciate it very much.
Mr. Jarman. We are glad to do it.
Mr. Ball. Mr. Chairman, we would like to recall Mr. Brennan.
Mr. Belin. Mr. Brennan, you are the same Howard Leslie Brennan who testifled this morning here?
Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Do you know a George Murray, of the National Broadcasting Co.?
Mr. Brennan. I do not.
Mr. Belin. Have you ever worked for the Union Terminal Co.——
Mr. McCloy. You are still under oath, you realize.
Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Have you ever worked for the Union Terminal Co. in Dallas?
Mr. Brennan. I have not.
Mr. Belin. Did you ever state to anyone that you heard shots from opposite the Texas School Book Depository and saw smoke and paper wadding come out of boxes on a slope below the railroad trestle at the time of the assassination? Did you ever say that or that, in substance, to anyone?
Mr. Brennan. I did not.
Mr. Belin. That is all.
Mr. Brennan. Is there another Howard Brennan?
Mr. Belin. Well, sir; we don't know. We wanted to know whether or not you ever made this statement to anyone.
Mr. Brennan. No, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Brennan.
Mr. Brennan. I would like to ask a question off the record.
The Chairman. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Belin. Next we will call Mr. Truly.
Mr. McCloy. Will you raise your right hand, and stand?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Truly. I do.
Mr. McCloy. I would like to state, Mr. Truly, what the purpose of this hearing is.
This is to hear the testimony of several witnesses, or people close to the event of the assassination of the President, to get as much knowledge as we can of the facts concerning that event, which largely centers around the School Book Depository and the people in it, on the afternoon of November 22d.
Will you state for the record your full name?
Mr. Truly. Roy Sansom Truly.
Mr. Belin. Mr. Truly, where do you live?
Mr. Truly. I live at 4932 Jade Drive, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. Belin. Are you originally from Dallas?
Mr. Truly. No. I have been in Dallas since 1925.
Mr. Belin. Where were you born, sir?
Mr. Truly. Hubbard, Tex.
Mr. Belin. And what was your birth date?
Mr. Truly. August 29, 1907.
Mr. Belin. Mr. Truly, where did you go to school?
Mr. Truly. I finished high school at Hubbard.
Mr. Belin. In Texas?
Mr. Truly. In Texas.
Mr. Belin. And what did you do after you finished high school?
Mr. Truly. Well, I came to Dallas in the fall of that year and I have been there ever since.
Mr. Belin. For whom did you become employed when you came to Dallas?
Mr. Truly. I believe—my father ran a cafe here in Dallas, and I worked with him a short while. And then in the fall of 1925, I went to work for Higginbotham, Bailey, Logan Co.
Mr. Belin. What business is that?
Mr. Truly. That is wholesale drygoods.
Mr. Belin. And how long did you work with them?
Mr. Truly. I believe a little less than a year.
Mr. Belin. And then where did you go?
Mr. Truly. I went to work for National Casket Co.
Mr. Belin. And about how long did you work for them?
Mr. Truly. I couldn't be certain. Several years—maybe 3 or 4 or 5 years.
Mr. Belin. And in what capacity did you work for them?
Mr. Truly. Well, I worked in the cloth room, learning the trade of putting in the drapery and things in the caskets.
Mr. Belin. And from there, where did you go?
Mr. Truly. I worked a short time at the Dallas Coffin Co., several months. It wasn't very long. And I left there and during the depression I worked for several things. I drove a laundry truck off and on for a couple of years.
(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Truly. I believe I even worked for the WPA back there in those days.
Mr. Belin. All right.
And after the depression, where did you start working then?
Mr. Truly. I went to work for the Texas School Book Depository in July 1934.
Mr. Belin. And have you been employed by the Texas School Book Depository since that date, since July 1934?
Mr. Truly. That is right.
(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Belin. In what capacity have you worked for that company?
Mr. Truly. First, when I first went to work for this company, I had charge of the miscellaneous order department, which is actually a one-man operation. I filled orders for books other than state-adopted textbooks.
Mr. Belin. And then what?
Mr. Truly. I worked on through that time until the present time.
During the war I worked in the North American plant at Arlington.
Mr. Belin. That is the North American Aviation?
Mr. Truly. North American Aviation plant at Arlington, for around 14 months, at night. But I continued to hold my job.
Well, I would go down to work 2, 3, 4 hours a day. Shortly after that, I took charge of all the shipping.
Well, I have been superintendent of the operation since some time in the late 1944.
Mr. Belin. You have been superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository. And do you have any other positions with the company at this time?
Mr. Truly. I am a director—I am a member of the board of directors of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. Belin. Is that a State organization or a private company?
Mr. Truly. It is a private corporation.
Mr. Belin. Mr. Truly, when did you first hear of the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. Truly. I heard the name on or about October 15th.
Mr. Belin. Of what year?
Mr. Truly. Of 1963.
Mr. Belin. And from whom did you hear the name? Could you just relate to the Commission the circumstances, if you would, please?
Mr. Truly. I received a phone call from a lady in Irving who said her name was Mrs. Paine.
Mr. Belin. All right.
What did Mrs. Paine say, and what did you say?
Mr. Truly. She said, "Mr. Truly"—words to this effect—you understand—"Mr. Truly, you don't know who I am but I have a neighbor whose brother works for you. I don't know what his name is. But he tells his sister that you are very busy. And I am just wondering if you can use another man," or words to that effect.
And I told Mrs.—she said, "I have a fine young man living here with his wife and baby, and his wife is expecting a baby—another baby, in a few days, and he needs work desperately."
Now, this is not absolutely—this is as near as I can remember the conversation over the telephone.
And I told Mrs. Paine that—to send him down, and I would talk to him—that I didn't have anything in mind for him of a permanent nature, but if he was suited, we could possibly use him for a brief time.
Mr. Belin. Was there anything else from that conversation that you remember at all, or not?
Mr. Truly. No. I believe that was the first and the last time that I talked to Mrs. Paine.
In fact, I could not remember her name afterwards until I saw her name in print, and then it popped into my mind that this was the lady who called me.
Mr. Belin. All right.
Anything else on—what was this—October 15th—about Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. Truly. Yes, sir; I am sure it was on October 15th.
Mr. Belin. Anything else you can remember about Lee Harvey Oswald on that day?
Mr. Truly. She told me she would tell him to come down and see me.
So he came in, introduced himself to me, and I took him in my office and interviewed him. He seemed to be quiet and well mannered.
I gave him an application to fill out, which he did.
Mr. Belin. Did he fill it out in front of you, or not?
Mr. Truly. Yes; he did. And he told me—I asked him about experience that he had had, or where he had worked, and he said he had just served his term in the Marine Corps and had received an honorable discharge, and he listed some things of an office nature that he had learned to do in the Marines.
I questioned him about any past activities. I asked him if he had ever had any trouble with the police, and he said, no. So thinking that he was just out of the Marines, I didn't check any further back. I didn't have anything of a permanent nature in mind for him. He looked like a nice young fellow to me—he was quiet and well mannered. He used the word "sir", you know, which a lot of them don't do at this time.
So I told him if he would come to work on the morning of the 16th, it was the beginning of a new pay period. So he filled out his withholding slip, with the exception of the number of dependents.
He asked me if I would hold that for 3 or 4 days, that he is expecting a baby momentarily.
So some 4 days or so later—I don't remember the exact day—he told me that he had this new baby, and he wanted to add one dependent.
He finished filling it out. And I sent it up to Mr. Campbell who makes out the payroll for the company.
Mr. Belin. Now, on October 15th you saw him fill out the application form for employment in his own writing?
Mr. Truly. Yes.
Mr. Belin. You also saw him fill out the withholding slip, except for the number of exemptions, in his own writing, is that correct?
Mr. Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Any other conversation that you can remember from your meeting on October 15th?
Mr. Truly. Well, he told me that he needed a job. He said he had a wife and child to support. And he also repeated that he was expecting a child in a few days.
And I told Lee Oswald that I had some work, that if he could fit in, of a temporary nature, we could put him on. But I didn't have anything in mind of a permanent job at that time, because I didn't have any openings for a permanent person. And he said he would be glad to have any type of work I would give him, because he did need—and he stressed he really needed a job to support his family.
Mr. Belin. Anything else from that conversation on October 15th?
Mr. Truly. Nothing that I can recall, except that he seemed to be grateful that I was giving him the chance of a little extra work, if you want to call it that.
He left, and I didn't see him any more until the morning of the 16th.
Mr. Belin. What were his hours of work to be?
Mr. Truly. His hours were from 8 in the morning until 4:45 in the afternoon.
His lunch period was from 12 to 12:45.
Mr. Belin. Did you have a time clock there that they punch or not?
Mr. Truly. No, sir.
Mr. Belin. The next morning, do you know whether or not he came to work?
Mr. Truly. He came to work the next morning. I told him what his duties were to be—would be filling book orders. And I told Mr. Shelley, who is on that floor and has charge of the miscellaneous department.
Now, this particular thing as to whether I called a boy or Mr. Shelley did—anyway, we put Lee Oswald with another worker who was experienced in filling orders. This boy showed him the location of the various publishers' stock. He worked with him, it seems to me, like only an hour or two, and then he started filling orders by himself. And from then on he worked alone.
He would occasionally ask the other boys where certain stock items were when he couldn't find them. But he was filling small parcel post and a few freight orders for the various schools—as they would come down from the office.
Mr. Belin. Well, could you describe how his work progressed as he was working with you?
Mr. Truly. Well, he seemed to catch on and learn the location of the stock. We have several thousand titles of books in our warehouse. But he was filling mostly one or two publishers' orders.
Mr. Belin. What publishers were those?
Mr. Truly. The main publisher was Scott, Foresman and Co.
Now, they have quite a lot of small orders, all through the year. They are one of our biggest publishers. So it kept him busy filling mostly their orders, plus some of the smaller publishers. Possibly he filled some of Gregg Publishing Co. and others. But when he would run out of Scott, Foresman orders, he would pick up other orders that might have had several publishers' books on the same order.
Incidentally, not only Scott, Foresman orders were billed separately. There would be other publishers' orders on the same invoice.
Mr. Belin. Well, perhaps you might explain to the Commission just what exactly the nature of your business is, and how an employee would go about filling orders.
Mr. Truly. We are agents for a number of publishers. We furnish offices for those who desire them in Texas. And our business is shipping, inventorying, collecting, doing all the bookkeeping work for the various publishers' books.
Now, we have—most of the publishers' stock is lined up alphabetically by titles or by stock numbers or code numbers, whichever determines that.
And the location of the books—each publisher's books are to themselves. They are not mixed in with several other publishers on the various floors.
On the first floor we have bin stock, shelf stock, we fill a lot of small orders from.
And then in the basement the same.
The fifth and the sixth floor, and part of the seventh floor is overflow stock. It is reserve stock.
But the boys have to go to those floors all during the day to pick up stock and bring it to the first floor in order to process and complete the orders for the checker.
Mr. Dulles. What would reserve stock mean?
Mr. Truly. Actually it is not reserve stock—it is not surplus either. It is part of our stock. But we can carry a limited amount only on the first floor where we do our shipping. So they may get an order for a hundred copies of a certain book and there may only be 10 or 15 or 20 on the shelf on the first floor. They will have to go upstairs and get a carton or two. And they replenish the first floor stock from that.
And many of our freight orders are filled entirely from our reserve stock. And they bring them to the first floor. All orders reach the first floor, where they are checked and processed and packed and shipped from that floor.
Mr. Belin. Where, generally, are Scott, Foresman books kept?
Mr. Truly. On the first floor and the sixth floor. We have a large quantity of their books on the sixth floor.
Mr. Belin. And this is the area where Lee Harvey Oswald worked?
Mr. Truly. That is right.
Mr. Belin. That publisher?
Mr. Truly. That publisher. He had occasion to go to the sixth floor quite a number of times every day, each day, after books.
Mr. Belin. Now, when an order would come in, how would it get to the individual employee, so the employee would go out and pick out the books?
Mr. Truly. The orders came into our office and were processed by our girls, priced and billed by the bill clerks, and then were sent down a little chute to the first floor, a little dumbwaiter, regardless of publisher.
The boys would take them off of this dumbwaiter and carry them over on to a little table near the checker stand.
Various ones would sort out the publishers—sort out the orders by publishers.
Scott Foresman could be here, there would be a stock of Gregg and Southwestern over here, we have a number of small publishers, maybe we would group them altogether. And the boys usually know which particular orders they are supposed to fill from, because they know the books, they can tell.
On each order it says, "SF" for Scott, Foresman on each invoice and so forth.
Mr. Belin. Do they just pick up the piece of paper for the order and carry them around with them?
Mr. Truly. That is right. Most of them use a clipboard. They may have several orders at a time on the clipboard. That saves them going back to the table continually for one order. These orders amount from anything to $3 or $4 to $300 or $400, on up.
But usually if a boy is filling Scott, Foresman's orders, for instance, and he sees half a dozen over there, he will pick up maybe that many.
But during our busy season, when we have stacks and stacks of orders on the table, they don't try to put them all on a clipboard, they take a few at a time—when they go to the sixth floor after stock, they try to be certain what they need for several orders at one trip.
Mr. Belin. Who else worked on Scott, Foresman other than Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. Truly. Well, I assume that all of our boys, all of our order fillers have worked at some time or other, because when the boys finish up the stocks they are working, the orders they are filling, if there is anything left, regardless of publisher, they go fill it.
But Scott, Foresman was one of our publishers that I would say would be easiest for a new man to learn how to fill.
And we have a lot of those orders.
You can give a new man those orders, once he understands a little about the alphabetical arrangement, the location of the stock, and he can go ahead and fill orders, and you won't have to keep showing him things. They are easier to fill.
Usually the boys that fill a lot of the other orders are the boys that have had more experience overall, they have been there some time, and they will know the general location of all the stock, and it is just easier for an experienced man to fill some other orders.
Mr. Belin. When they fill the orders, they go and get the books, and bring them down to your wrapping and mailing section?
Mr. Truly. That is right. And they are checked to see that they are in correct quantities and titles and called for on the order, or the invoice.
Then they are weighed up on parcel post scales, if they go by parcel post, or they are processed over on the floor if they are big enough for freight.
Mr. Belin. And, as I understand it, they would first look to see if the title would be on the first floor in your bins, and then only if it wasn't on the first floor would they go up to some of the upper floors with your reserve stock, is that correct?
Mr. Truly. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Anything else you can think of with regard to the particular nature of the type of work that Lee Harvey Oswald did when he was working for your company?
Mr. Truly. Nothing—except that we have occasionally—we would check the number of orders that each boy filled per day, to see if he is doing a day's work. And each invoice which is the billing of the order, has a little section for a checker's number. And the order filler's number. Our checker periodically would count at the end of the day the number of orders that each order filler filled that day.
We could tell at that time whether some of them were doing much more work than others.
And we also kept a list of mistakes that he catches a boy making, such as filling the wrong quantity of books, or the wrong title. We didn't do that every day, because it is a top heavy thing, and if we have to keep a check on your boys all the time, it is not worthwhile.
Mr. Belin. What did you find generally—would you classify Lee Harvey Oswald as an average employee—above average, or below average employee?
Mr. Truly. I would say for the nature of the work and the time he was there, the work that he did was a bit above average. I wasn't on that floor constantly. The boy, from all reports to me, and what I have seen kept working and talked little to anybody else. He just kept moving. And he did a good day's work.
Mr. Belin. What was his pay?
Mr. Truly. $1.25 an hour.
Mr. Truly. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Did he miss many days of work?
Mr. Truly. We had no record of him missing any days.
Mr. Belin. By the way, was your company open on Armistice Day, November 11th, or not? If you know.
Mr. Truly. We usually are closed on that day.
Now, I just cannot remember whether we were closed that day or not.
Mr. Belin. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 496, which appears to be a photostatic copy of a document, and I ask you to state if you know what that is.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 496 for identification.)
Mr. Truly. This is a copy of the application blank that Oswald filled out. I am not familiar with his handwriting, because he didn't do anything that we have records of. All the work that he ever did was put his number or something.
Mr. Belin. Well, my first question is this: Is this particular form a form of your company?
Mr. Truly. That is one form; yes. We changed it a little bit, and this might have been just one that I pulled out. I can't recall whether it is the one we use now or the one we did use.
Mr. Belin. Well, was this a form that you were using at about the time he came for employment?
Mr. Truly. Yes.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Belin. Did you see him fill this out? Was it in your office or not?
Mr. Truly. Yes. He was sitting opposite me, and he filled it out on my desk.
Mr. Belin. He filled this Exhibit 496 out on your desk?
Mr. Truly. Yes.
Mr. Belin. At this time we offer in evidence Exhibit 496.
495 as yet has not been offered. And I don't know if 494 has been offered or not.
But, in the event it has not, we offer that in evidence.
Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 494, 495, and 496 were received in evidence.)
Mr. Belin. Mr. Truly, are there any other observations you can give about Lee Harvey Oswald as an employee during the month of October 1963, or during the month of November, prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. Truly. Nothing that I can recall.
I would speak to him in the morning when I would come through, and I would say, "Good morning, Lee," and he would say, "Good morning, sir."
I would ask him how he was. Occasionally I would ask about his baby, and he would usually smile a big smile when I asked him how his new baby was. And that was just about the extent of my conversation that I can remember with the boy.
But I usually saw him every morning as I would come through. He would be working around the front part of the Scott, Foresman bins and shelf space.
Mr. Belin. Did you ever see whether or not he seemed to strike up any friendship or acquaintanceship with the other employees?
Mr. Truly. No; I never noticed that anywheres. In fact, I would be inclined—well—I never saw him with anyone else, except occasionally talking, maybe asking where books were or something.
I don't know what he would say. But very little conversation he had with anyone.
And he worked by himself. His job was something that he needed no help with, other than to ask occasionally for stock. It wasn't a teamwork job at all.
Consequently, he didn't have much occasion to talk with the other boys.
I thought it was a pretty good trait at the time, because occasionally you have to spread your boys out and say, "Quit talking so much, let's get to work."
And it seemed to me like he paid attention to his job.
Mr. Belin. Did you notice whether or not he brought his lunch to work generally?
Mr. Truly. I never was aware that he brought a lunch. I would see him occasionally in the shipping department eating some little snack or something—didn't pay much attention. Offhand, it seemed to be not too much—a Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, and some little thing.
Maybe he would be sitting there reading a book or a newspaper.
Mr. Belin. You would see him occasionally reading a newspaper at the lunch hour?
Mr. Truly. I am sure so; yes.
And occasionally—I didn't always go to lunch at 12—usually a little after. And he would have to pass my door to go out the front. Occasionally I had seen the boy go out, and maybe he would be gone long enough to get across the street and back, with something in his hand. I seem to recall possibly a newspaper, maybe potato chips or something like that.
Mr. Belin. Did you ever have any discussions with him about politics or anything like that?
Mr. Truly. Never.
Mr. Belin. Prior to November 22, did you have any discussion with him about the Presidential motorcade, or hear him talk to anyone about it?
Mr. Truly. I never heard him talk to anyone, and I didn't talk to him myself.
Mr. Belin. Any other things about Lee Harvey Oswald prior to November 22 that you can think of?
Mr. Truly. Offhand I cannot recall a thing.
Just like I said—he seemed to go about his business in a quiet way, didn't talk much, seemed to be doing a satisfactory job.
Mr. Belin. If you turn behind you, you will see Commission Exhibit No. 362, and it appears to be a floor plan which is entitled, "Texas School Book Depository." You see the room marked Mr. Truly's office?
Mr. Truly. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Does that appear to accurately depict where your office is located? This is the front of the building here at the top.
Mr. Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. And it was in the place marked Mr. Truly's office that Lee Harvey Oswald filled out in front of you on your desk Exhibit 496?
Mr. Truly. That is right.
Mr. Belin. And also the withholding slip?
Mr. Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Now I want to take you to the morning of November 22d.
First let me ask you when you first heard your employees discussing the fact that the motorcade would be going by the Texas School Book Depository? Was that first on the morning of November 22d that you heard that, or at any prior date?
Mr. Truly. I don't recall. I don't recall hearing any particular discussion about him coming by. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. Belin. All right.
What time did you get to work on November 22d?
Mr. Truly. Around 8 o'clock, or shortly thereafter.
Mr. Belin. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time during that day?
Mr. Truly. I am almost certain that I saw him early that morning as I came in, and spoke to him.
Mr. Belin. And where was he when you saw him?
Mr. Truly. I think he was around the front part of the Scott, Foresman bins.
Mr. Belin. On what floor?
Mr. Truly. On the first floor.
Mr. Belin. Was he filling orders?
Mr. Truly. Apparently; yes, sir. I don't recall too close. But I am almost certain that I talked to him that morning.
Mr. Belin. Do you recall any conversation you might have had with him, or he might have had with you?
Mr. Truly. No, sir. If there was anything, I just said "Good morning, Lee", and he said, "Good morning, sir" and that would be the extent of my conversation, if I saw him that morning, which I am almost certain I did.
Mr. Belin. Did you see him any other time during that day?
Mr. Truly. I cannot recall. I believe I saw him that morning later on, around his work. But I probably wasn't on that floor too much, or out on the floor that morning.
Mr. Belin. Now, when did you leave for lunch, Mr. Truly?
Mr. Truly. As near as I know, it was between somewheres around 12:10 or shortly after, possibly 12:15.
Mr. Belin. At that time did you go out to lunch?
Mr. Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Where did you go to eat?
Mr. Truly. We didn't go anywheres. Mr. Campbell and I——
Mr. Belin. That is Mr. O. V. Campbell?
Mr. Truly. Mr. O. V. Campbell, vice president—and I had started out for lunch. I don't know as we had any particular place in mind. We ate at several places around there.
It was around 12:10 or 12:15, I would say, to the nearest of my memory.
As we got to the outside of the building, we noticed that it wouldn't be long until the motorcade would come by, and we decided to wait and watch the President come by.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember where you were standing with Mr. Campbell?
Mr. Truly. I would judge out in Elm Street, 10 to 15 or 20 feet from the front steps. We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side of Elm Street.
Mr. Belin. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 495, and ask you to state, if you know, what this is.
Mr. Truly. This is the front entrance to our building.
Mr. Belin. In what direction would the camera be pointing?
Mr. Truly. Almost straight out from it. It would not be—well, it could be on a little angle.
Mr. Belin. I mean would the camera be pointing east, west, north, or south?
Mr. Truly. North.
Mr. Belin. And the camera would be pointing north on Exhibit 495.
I wonder if on that exhibit you would put the place where you and Mr. Campbell first stood, and mark that with the letter "A" if you would.
Mr. Truly. The street curved there, I suppose. I think possibly along here somewheres.
Mr. Belin. You have marked a letter "A" on Exhibit 495. Now, I believe you said that afterwards you went and moved out towards the street, is that correct?
Mr. Truly. That is right.
Mr. Belin. I am going to put up on the board Commission Exhibit No. 361. The bottom of the picture is relatively north, sir.
And the top faces roughly south.
And here is the Texas School Book Depository Building—located at Houston and Elm.
Mr. Truly. That is right.
Mr. Belin. I wonder if you could put on Exhibit 361 with the letter "T" the spot at which you were standing when you moved to a closer position to watch the motorcade.
Mr. Truly. I could be off a few feet, but I believe possibly over this way just a bit—that is within 3 or 4 or 5 feet of this area.
We were almost out in this. And I think when the motorcade came around, we probably pushed out even a bit farther.
Mr. Belin. Now, by this, you are referring to the entrance to the parkway, is that correct?
Mr. Truly. Yes.
Mr. Belin. And you say that you are either at the spot marked by the letter "T" or perhaps a little bit to the east of that?
Mr. Truly. That is right.
Mr. Belin. And that you gradually might have moved a little bit towards the south, towards the parkway, is that correct?
Mr. Truly. That is correct.
Mr. Belin. All right.
Do you know approximately what time you got there, Mr. Truly? To the best of your recollection.
Mr. Truly. 3 or 4 minutes after we reached the entrance, the walkway, we stood on the steps 2 or 3 minutes, and then I don't believe—we just gradually moved out a bit.
And then when the policemen leading the motorcade came off of Main on to Houston, we saw them coming, and then we just moved out a little farther to the edge of the parkway.
Mr. Belin. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?
Mr. Truly. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot—I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade—somewheres in that area.
I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.
But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were—two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.
Mr. Belin. All right.
What did you next see with reference to the motorcade?
Mr. Truly. Do you mind me——
Mr. Belin. Do you want to turn that over, sir? Will that be easier for you?
Mr. Truly. It might be easier for the gentlemen when I point this out.
Now, what was the question?
Mr. Belin. My question is what did you see with reference to the motorcade?
Mr. Truly. All right.
We saw the motorcycle escort come off of Main and turn onto Houston Street.
Mr. Belin. Main would be down here, and it would be coming off Houston, heading towards the building?
Mr. Truly. Headed towards the building.
Mr. Belin. All right.
Mr. Truly. And it went on down this way. And immediately after——
Mr. Belin. By "this way" you mean the street marked Parkway?
Mr. Truly. I assume that is the underpass that you have marked Parkway.
Mr. Belin. The street leading to the expressway, that diagonal street?
Mr. Truly. That is right.
And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.
Mr. Belin. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved—as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?
Mr. Truly. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.
If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.
Now, what is your best estimate of the speed as he started to go down the street here marked Parkway?
Mr. Truly. He picked up a little speed along here, and then seemed to have fallen back into line, and I would say 10 or 12 miles an hour in this area.
Mr. Belin. All right.
Then what did you see happen?
Mr. Truly. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind.
The President's—I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw of his car, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out—there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front—they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building.
Mr. Belin. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop?
Mr. Truly. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. I didn't see—I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see it start up.
Mr. Belin. Then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by something else?
Mr. Truly. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me and bore me back through weight of numbers, and I lost sight of it.
I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of something. They didn't know what.
Mr. Belin. Then what did you do or see?
Mr. Truly. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think—words to that effect.
I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.
But as I came back here, and everybody was screaming and hollering, just moments later I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway—I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the floor. And that is—that just popped in my mind, and I ran in with him. As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way". And I ran diagonally across to the northwest corner of the building.
Mr. Belin. Now, let me, if I can—turning to Exhibit 362 again, I wonder if you would, with this—we can first do it with this pen, if you would—trace your route inside there. Point out the place inside the lobby where you talked to the policeman, where he said "where is the stairway."
Mr. Truly. I believe along right there.
Mr. Belin. All right. Could you put a "T" on Exhibit 362, if you would.
Mr. Truly. I could be wrong, but I am almost positive that is the place.
Mr. Belin. All right.
Now—and this is inside the glass or plastic set of doors shown on Exhibit 495, is that correct?
Mr. Truly. That is correct.
Mr. Belin. Now, he said to you what?
Mr. Truly. Where is the stairway.
Mr. Belin. And what did you say to him?
Mr. Truly. I said "This way."
Mr. Belin. Now, I wonder if you would take this pen and show the route that you took with the policeman, or take your own pen, if you would, sir—starting from point "T" on Exhibit 362.
Mr. Truly. I ran in front of him.
Mr. Belin. You better mark on the exhibit, sir.
Mr. Truly. Took this route. There is a swinging door and a counter, what we call our will call counter right here.
Mr. Belin. Is it here, or here?
Mr. Truly. No, wait a minute.
There—right here. We came in this way.
Mr. Belin. Do you still want to put point "T" up here?
Mr. Truly. No. This was on the steps, wasn't it? This is where I am sure he asked me.
Mr. Belin. You better cross out the other one, then.
Mr. Truly. I saw this thing here, and I thought it was that little swinging door.
Mr. Belin. That would be the main door?
Now, you have point "T."
Now, will you trace the route from point "T"?
Mr. Truly. We came through this door here. The policeman right behind me.
Mr. Belin. All right.
Mr. Truly. This is a counter and this is a counter built in that cut inside—this is where our customers come that pick up books.
Mr. Belin. All right.
When you are pointing to the counter on Exhibit 362, you are pointing to a rectangle that appears to be located immediately to the west of the glass—looks like a glass partition to your office, is that correct?
Mr. Truly. That is right.
Mr. Belin. You call that the will call counter?
Mr. Truly. That is right.
Mr. Belin. What happened when you got there?
Mr. Truly. There is a little swinging door that swings in and out that we have there. We never keep it locked. But on the bottom is a little bolt that you can lock it to keep people from pulling it out or pushing it in. And this bolt had slid out. It has done that on occasions. I started to run through this little opening, and I ran into the door, and the bolt hung against the side of the counter, and the policeman ran into my back. And so I just pulled it back and continued on through.
Mr. Belin. All right.
Now, the door didn't swing through. The bolt stuck. So you were stuck by the door. The policeman ran into you. And then you had to stop and pull the door back and go through it.
Mr. Truly. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Then where did you go? You might continue with your pen on Exhibit 362, showing the route.
All right.
Now, you have cut sort of diagonally across towards the rear, and you have come to the west elevator in the rear.
Mr. Truly. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Let me ask you this, Mr. Truly. I note on Exhibit 362 right where you came in there appears to be some stairs there. Why didn't you go up those stairs, instead of running to the back?
Mr. Truly. Those stairs only reached to the second floor, and they wouldn't have any way of getting up to the top without going to the back stairway.
Mr. Belin. All right.
Mr. Truly. So this is the logical stairway that goes all the way to the seventh floor.
Mr. Belin. And you are pointing to the stairway in what would be the northwest corner?
Mr. Truly. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Now, you got to the elevator, and what did you do then?
Mr. Truly. I looked up. This is two elevators in the same well. This elevator over here——
Mr. Belin. You are pointing to the west one?
Mr. Truly. I am pointing to the west one. This elevator was on the fifth floor. Also, the east elevator—as far as I can tell—both of them were on the fifth floor at that time.
This elevator will come down if the gates are down, and you push a button.
Representative Ford. Which elevator is that?
Mr. Truly. The west one. But the east one will not come down unless you get on it and bring it down. You cannot call it if the gates are down.
Representative Ford. That is the east elevator?
Mr. Truly. The east elevator?
There is a button and a little bell here. I pressed——
Mr. Belin. You might put a "B" on Exhibit 362 by the elevator for "button."
Mr. Truly. That is right on this surface. There is a little button. I pressed the button and the elevator didn't move.
I called upstairs "Turn loose the elevator."
Mr. Belin. When you say call up, in what kind of a voice did you call?
Mr. Truly. Real loud. I suppose in an excited voice. But loud enough that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or making a little noise. But I rang the bell and pushed this button.
Mr. Belin. What did you call?
Mr. Truly. I said, "Turn loose the elevator."
Those boys understand that language.
Mr. Belin. What does that mean?
Mr. Truly. That means if they have the gates up, they go pull the gates down, and when you press the button, you can pull it down.
Mr. Belin. And how many times did you yell that?
Mr. Truly. Two times.
Mr. Belin. After you had first pushed the button?
Mr. Truly. That is right. I had pressed the button twice, I believe, and called up for the elevator twice.
Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?
First of all, did the elevator come down?
Mr. Truly. It did not.
Mr. Belin. All right.
Then what did you do?
Mr. Truly. I went up on a run up the stairway.
Mr. Belin. Could you again follow—from Point B, could you show which way you went?
All right.
Mr. Truly. What is this here?
Mr. Belin. This is to show this is a stairway, and there is a stairway above it, too. But you went up the stairs right here?
Mr. Truly. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Okay. And where was this officer at that time?
Mr. Truly. This officer was right behind me and coming up the stairway.
By the time I reached the second floor, the officer was a little further behind me than he was on the first floor, I assume—I know.
Mr. Belin. Was he a few feet behind you then?
Mr. Truly. He was a few feet. It is hard for me to tell. I ran right on around to my left, started to continue on up the stairway to the third floor, and on up.
Mr. Belin. Now, when you say you ran on to your left, did you look straight ahead to see whether there was anyone in that area, or were you intent on just going upstairs?
Mr. Truly. If there had been anybody in that area, I would have seen him on the outside. But I was content—I was trying to show the officer the pathway up, where the elevators—I mean where the stairways continued.
Mr. Belin. Now, I hand you what has been marked Exhibit 497.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 497, for identification.)
Mr. Belin. This is entitled "Texas School Book Depository, Diagram of Second Floor."
You can sit down, if you would, please, Mr. Truly.
And would you, on Exhibit 497, if you would kind of take an arrow to show the route that you took going out—or up from the first floor, and starting up the stairs towards the third.
Now, you marked that with pen.
Could you put a "T" on that, if you would, please?
Now, there appears to be some kind of a vestibule or hall of one kind or another with the No. 22 in a circle on it, on Exhibit 497. Is this completely clear, or are there books there from time to time?
Mr. Truly. No; that is always clear. There is a few cartons of office stock, invoices, blank invoices and stationery and stuff up and down here. But there is always a pathway. There is a post, right about where this 22 is. You can always clear it and come by there. I don't think there would ever be stock here that would obstruct your view of the other area across there.
Mr. Belin. Now, I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 498.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 498 for identification.)
Mr. Belin. I ask you to state, if you know what this is.
Mr. Truly. Yes. This is the vestibule, when you first come up the stairs on the second floor—this is what you will find right there.
Mr. Belin. Now, as you take a look at the picture Exhibit 498, is this a post immediately to the left side of the picture, to the extreme left of the picture?
Mr. Truly. No.
Mr. Belin. What is this, to the extreme left? Is that the wall for the staircase?
Mr. Truly. Yes; there is an opening on this side, and the staircase is back over here. This picture is just part of this vestibule out here.
Mr. Belin. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing, or what is shown there?
Mr. Truly. It appears to be pointing east.
Mr. Belin. And I see a door with a glass in it.
Could you show where on this diagram Exhibit 497 this door with the glass is?
Do you see a number with an arrow pointing to the door?
Mr. Truly. That is it.
Mr. Belin. What number is that?
Mr. Truly. It is number 23.
Mr. Belin. All right. Number 23, the arrow points to the door that has the glass in it.
Now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards the third floor there?
Mr. Truly. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.
Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr. Truly. I came back to the second floor landing.
Mr. Belin. What did you see?
Mr. Truly. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.
Mr. Belin. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.
Mr. Truly. That is right.
Mr. Belin. What did you do then?
Mr. Truly. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.
Mr. Belin. Through the glass, or was the door open?
Mr. Truly. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.
Mr. Belin. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?
Mr. Truly. The chances are it was closed.
Mr. Belin. You thought you opened it?
Mr. Truly. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.
Mr. Belin. What did you see?
Mr. Truly. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunchroom facing Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. Belin. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
Mr. Truly. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside—he was just inside the lunchroom door.
Mr. Belin. All right.
Mr. Truly. 2 or 3 feet, possibly.
Mr. Belin. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?
All right.
You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497.
What did you see or hear the officer say or do?
Mr. Truly. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."
Mr. Belin. And then what happened?
Mr. Truly. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.