Pittsburgh, Monday, February 11, 1878, 10 o'clock, A.M.
Orphans' Court Room.
Pursuant to adjournment the committee re-assembled at ten o'clock, A.M., this day, and continued the taking of testimony.
Charles McGovern, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. On Boyd street, in the Sixth ward, Pittsburgh.
Q. Were you on the police force of the city of Pittsburgh, in last July?
A. I was.
Q. In what capacity?
A. I was a detective.
Q. Were you in the city on the 19th day of July?
A. I was. That was Thursday.
Q. Were you employed by the mayor as a special detective?
A. I was serving under his administration.
Q. Had you any communication with the mayor on that day with reference to the disturbance of the peace?
A. I had.
Q. State what it was?
A. A little after eleven o'clock on Thursday, the 19th day of July, Mr. Watt came to the mayor's office and had a conversation with the mayor, and after he was through the mayor called me in. It was my week in the office. We took our turns in the office. He instructed me to gather what men I could find and go out to Twenty-eighth street—that there was some trouble with the railroad employés out there on account of a strike. The week before that our police force had been reduced from two hundred and thirty-six men to one hundred and twenty, I think. That left us without any men in the day time at all, except six men that were employed in the office as detectives, and one man on Fifth street, and two specials, I believe; but on this day it happened that the men that had been dropped from the rolls were in the City hall for the purpose of getting their money. I told the mayor that I could not get a sufficient number of men to go out there to amount to anything, if there was any serious trouble, but that a number of these men were there, and that I could raise a squad from them if necessary. So failing to find the necessary number of our men—who were in bed at this time because they were on duty at night—I gathered ten men belonging to the force that had been dropped, and started out to the Union depot. Mr. Watt met us there and took us out to the crossing at Twenty-eighth street. He had some two or three of his own men there. When I got out there he told me what we were brought there for—that there was a strike in progress, and he anticipated some trouble with the employés—that is they would likely resist the running of trains. We were moved out to Twenty-eighth street, and at Twenty-eighth street, or a little this side of the street—that is, west—there is a switch. He told me he was going to move the trains, and I sent the men to protect those switches, and to see they were not interfered with by the strikers. I divided the men into two squads, and sent one squad to the western switch and took charge of the other myself.
Q. How many men were there in a squad?
A. Five; I had ten men and myself. Quite a number of the people there were boys, and there didn't appear to be much excitement just then.
Q. What time was that?
A. A little before twelve o'clock.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What were they, railroad men?
A. Yes; a number of them. Some I knew.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Could you mention their names?
A. One I recollect now. I knew him to be a railroad man. I had a conversation with him. It was Samuel Muckle. I talked with him. The leading men of them seemed to be disposed to keep the peace. They didn't want any trouble with the police. We didn't anticipate much trouble then.
Q. How many were there?
A. One hundred were there, but a number of those were spectators, who had just come from curiosity.
Q. How many were engaged in the strike?
A. I can only judge of the number actively engaged in the strike, from the number of persons that interfered with the first arrest that we made. That occurred when Mr. Watt attempted to open the switch to let the train out. That is where the first trouble commenced. As soon as he did that, a man named McCall, and another man named Davis, both of whom have been tried in the courts since—they jumped on to the switch, and one of them struck Mr. Watt. When I saw that, I was at the other switch. I ran down, and after considerable trouble, we succeeded in arresting McCall and in taking him down to the watch-house. Then probably there were fifteen or twenty persons that appeared to take an active part in preventing McCall from being arrested. They seemed to be very anxious to have us let him go. There were a number of stones thrown, and some of my officers were hit. I saw a number of stones thrown, and it was principally the work of boys. The railroad men wanted to persuade us to let him go, but we finally got him down to the watch-house. He resisted very stoutly. None of the railroad men attempted to use violence at that time.
Q. You placed him in the lock-up?
A. Yes; at the Twelfth ward station.
Q. How many of your men remained there on the ground?
A. After we locked him up we came right back there again.
Q. What occurred then?
A. Mr. Watt left then and went to get more men. Along about one o'clock, I judge, there were some five or six men came, in charge of officer White, of the mayor's force, and went on out to East Liberty, and my impression is that Mr. Watt went with them.
Q. How many men were with officer White?
A. Five or six men—also men dropped from the rolls. Then three or four—probably more—there may have been ten—came to my assistance and remained with me at the crossing.
Q. How long did you remain at the crossing?
A. Until about three o'clock. In the meantime there did not appear to be any effort made on the part of the railroad authorities to move any more trains after this assault at the switch, and my impression was at the time that they had given the matter up just then. There seemed to be a general disposition on the part of the railroad employés—the men not on strike—to rest easy, as it were. They didn't want to work. I heard the men talking with each other. They did not appear to make any effort to work. Those not engaged in the strike actively—they seemed to be in sympathy with those in the strike.
Q. What was the condition of the crowd there from one o'clock up to three o'clock?
A. It kept on increasing.
Q. How was it as to being demonstrative or boisterous?
A. There was no trouble there after this assault on Mr. Watt, because no effort was made on the part of the railroad officials to run out trains.
Q. Where did you go when you left there?
A. I telegraphed to the chief, in town, from the Twelfth ward station, that things were at a stand-still; that there was no attempt on the part of the railroad men to run out trains, and that the men were still stationed at the crossing, and he instructed me to place the men in charge of officer Fowler, and to come in to the central office. I did so after three o'clock.
Q. Did you go out again?
A. Not that afternoon.
Q. Did you receive any further instructions?
A. Not that day. The men remained there that day and night—all night.
Q. Were you present when Mr. Watt came to consult with the mayor?
A. I was in the office.
Q. Did you hear the conversation?
A. No.
Q. What did Mr. Watt tell you that time in the presence of the mayor?
A. I do not think the mayor was present at that time. It was in regard to what I was going out there for. He told me a few of the men were on a strike, and that they would probably undertake to interfere with the running of the trains, but he did not anticipate any serious trouble. He thought that a few men would be sufficient. He did not think it would amount to anything, and said that the presence of a few men would stop the whole thing. He looked on it very lightly at that time.
Q. After Mr. Watt went away it was that Mayor McCarthy gave you instructions?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he tell you to do?
A. He told me to collect as many men as I could get.
Q. Of the force on duty?
A. There was no force on duty.
Q. From what source were you to collect them?
A. He told me to get as many men as I could get. He meant the office men. But they were only on duty at night, and at this time none of them were about except the chief of detectives, Mr. O'Mara, who was busy, I believe. I so reported to the mayor. I told him I could get a number of the men who were dropped from the rolls. He told me to go ahead and get them.
Q. How many of those men were there then?
A. I suppose there may have been twenty or twenty-five.
Q. You selected ten of them?
A. I thought that would be a sufficient number on account of what Mr. Watt had told me.
Q. You could have got more if you had wanted them?
A. Yes; I did get more afterwards. I think ten more came out. Of course we could not get those men and bring them into service as our men in actual service, because those men had been dropped from the rolls, and it was only those willing to go on duty or not.
Q. But plenty of them were willing to go?
A. Yes; they showed a willingness to go.
Q. When you got to Twenty-eighth street, how many men were engaged there then in preventing the trains from moving?
A. The first intimation I had of any men, who were going to prevent trains from running, was when Mr. Watt was assaulted, and then I should judge that those men actively engaged, numbered, probably, ten or fifteen—that seemed to be the leaders.
Q. When you undertook to arrest McCall, how many men took his part?
A. I suppose ten or fifteen of those men gathered around us, and wanted us to let him go.
Q. Did you arrest all of those who undertook to take McCall's part?
A. They did not use any violence at all. McCall appealed to them, and asked them not to allow him to be arrested, that they were there for the purpose of preventing the trains from running, and that they were not surely going to allow him to go to the watch-house, but there was not a man of them that attempted to interfere with the officers. The only interference was some stones thrown from the hill-side around. I saw some of them thrown, and most of them by boys.
Q. I understand, after you returned from the lock-up, you found the crowd still assembled at Twenty-eighth street?
A. Yes.
Q. How large was it then?
A. It was increased then, I estimate, to about the number of two hundred people, women, and children, and boys, and men.
Q. What were they doing at that time?
A. They were just standing around there chatting and talking among themselves. The excitement was still increasing.
Q. No effort was made to start the trains from that time until three o'clock?
A. When those men came from the office—the second force—Mr. Watt went up to Torren's station. I believe there was no person there that appeared to make any effort to do anything. Mr. Fox, the chief of the Pennsylvania railroad police was there, and I was under his instructions to do anything he wanted done. From that time, until I left, no effort was made on their part to run out trains east. There was an attempt made after I left to run trains out, but of course I did not see that.
Q. Did you command the crowd to disperse?
A. We undertook to keep the crowd off the tracks, but our force was not sufficient. As soon as we would get one track cleared, they would come in on the other. It would have required at two or three o'clock—it would have required a hundred men to clear the tracks, and do it effectually, and I did not have the necessary force to do it with. They appeared to loiter around there talking, and the crowd kept on increasing.
Q. Did you get any further instructions after you returned to the city and reported to the chief of police?
A. I got no further instructions, I remember, from the chief; he instructed me to turn the force over to officer Fowler, and report at the city hall.
Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, what were the movements of the police force there during the balance of the day?
A. During the balance of the day the force was increased to, I think, at Twenty-eighth street, thirty men—twenty-five or thirty men—during the evening. They remained on duty all night.
Q. Was there any effort made to run out trains during the afternoon of Thursday?
A. I believe there was.
Q. Were you not on an engine, and were you not driven off?
A. I was not; the officers can be got here that went on that engine.
Q. Will you tell us who they were?
A. Officer Saul Coulston and officer Robert Fowler.
Q. Did you have any further connection with the movements of the police?
A. Not in the capacity of commander or leader.
Q. Were you present at any of the disturbances after that?
A. I went through it all, backward and forward, around the city, in the capacity of an officer.
Q. Were the police, to your knowledge, reinforced in the morning of the 20th—Friday morning.
A. No, sir; the police force was not reinforced until Tuesday morning—the following Tuesday—that is, were not organized. Then the regular force was filled up and organized by the committee of safety. But a number of the men who were called on on Monday and Sunday responded. But the regular organization did not take place until Tuesday.
Q. They responded whenever the calls were made?
A. A number of them responded on Sunday, after the fire was going on.
Q. Was there any difficulty, so far as you know, in reinforcing the police force?
A. I know, from my own experience, that there was considerable difficulty in bringing the men dropped from the rolls when there was no trouble,—in bringing them to the front after the trouble commenced. A great many of them objected to going on duty.
Q. Why?
A. I suppose they looked on it in this way. I inferred this from the tone of their conversation—that they were discharged—that the councils had thought proper to dispense with their services when there was no trouble, and that, when they were in trouble they did not propose to put their heads into the halter. I know one of them left my squad—or two of them. One of them did not reflect that he might be taken to where he would get hurt or get hit with a stone. He left and the other left.
Q. What reason did he give?
A. He simply left.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. These men were not organized at all?
A. They had been dropped from the rolls the week previous. They were not bound in any way to the city.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did not a demand have to be made on them?
A. No, sir; I simply told them. Those that wanted to go, fell into line, and marched out as volunteers.
By Mr. Means:
Q. They could leave as soon as they wanted?
A. Yes; the same as any other citizens. They were not under pay—not under pay at all.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you not have the right from the mayor to demand them to go with you?
A. I did not know I had a right any more than I could command you to assist me.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you get such instructions from the mayor?
A. At the time we went out we did not expect any such trouble.
Q. But did the mayor give you instructions to demand them to go with you?
A. He did not think of it, and I did not either. I thought that the presence, as Mr. Watt told me—that the presence of five or six men would have the desired effect.
Q. Did you make any report to the mayor, during the afternoon?
A. I reported to the chief of police.
Q. That is the only report you made?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was he?
A. Philip Demmel.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Do you know of an order, given by the mayor to his officers, to compel men to serve on the police force, during those troubles?
A. I do not know of any order of that kind. I know of orders given by the mayor to summon all the men that had been dropped from the rolls, and to get them organized with the men we had, and go on duty. A number of them responded. That was on Sunday.
Q. What do you mean by summoned?
A. Just notified them.
Q. Compelling them to serve?
A. I did not understand it as compulsory at all. I did not think it was.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. It was simply a call for volunteers to go out?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you state to them anything about their pay—as to how they would be paid?
A. I do not know as I stated anything to them probably the first day, but the understanding was after they got out there that Mr. Watt was responsible for the pay of these men.
Q. The mayor did not make any call on the night police to go out there at all on Thursday?
A. Not on Thursday. The night men were not there.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. There was no effort made, that you know of, to get the night men out there?
A. There was no apparent necessity at that time. The night force went on duty on Friday night, and they remained on duty in and around the city hall until the trouble was all over.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. Going out in squads from the city hall wherever they were required to go.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did they serve during the day on Friday?
A. I do not recollect that they did. I cannot say that.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did they serve during the day Saturday?
A. I think they were on duty from Friday night until the trouble was all over. That is my impression. I cannot be positive, however.
Q. The night force numbered one hundred and twenty?
A. One hundred and sixteen men we had left for the whole city.
Q. Were any of that number detailed to go to the depot or to that section of the city?
A. On Thursday?
Q. Yes; or on Friday or on Saturday?
A. The men were on duty continually Friday, and on Saturday all the men were out.
Q. Where?
A. In the neighborhood of Twenty-eighth street, and along where the trouble was.
Q. How many were at Twenty-eighth street on Saturday?
A. I cannot say.
Q. How many on Friday?
A. That I cannot say. I suppose the chief would know.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. You were on duty that day?
A. I was on duty continuously from that time until the trouble was over.
Q. When you talked with those men, what reason did they give you. You have said you talked with one?
A. They assigned as a reason for striking that it was on account of the double-headers, slim pay, and so forth. That the men were starving, and all that kind of thing, and that now they proposed to reduce the force, and compel one crew to run two trains, and they did not propose to do it. Various reasons were assigned.
Q. Did he express any intention to use violence?
A. He did not. He and a number of the others had considerable influence over the men, and no violence was to be used at all. It seemed that the men not in the strike were in sympathy with those that were, and that no trains would be run out.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. When was this?
A. It was after Mr. Watt was struck.
Q. Did he take any part with them?
A. No, sir.
Q. How many men were arrested in that crowd on Thursday in the vicinity of the trouble?
A. McCall was the only one I arrested. I left about three o'clock. While I was there no other act was committed by any person in the party, and no effort was made by the railroad to run out trains, and we were simply there under the instruction of the railroad men.
Q. You do not know of any others being arrested that day in that vicinity?
A. I do not.
Q. Nor on Friday in that vicinity to your knowledge?
A. On Friday morning, I think, the military was out with the sheriff and his posse.
Q. But answer my question?
A. No.
Q. On Saturday?
A. On Saturday, no, not on Saturday. The military were in charge of the railroad property on Saturday.
Q. Did you or any other officer that you know of have a warrant in his hands for the arrest of some ten or twelve men?
A. Yes; I had a warrant for the arrest of ten or twelve men that were interfering with the railroad employés.
Q. You had the names of those parties?
A. Before the warrants were served they were re-called from me.
Q. By whom?
A. The information was taken away by the attorneys of the railroad company.
Q. Did they recall them?
A. Yes.
Q. From you?
A. Not the warrants; but I was notified by the mayor that the information was taken from the office, and that the matter was placed in the hands of the sheriff.
Q. Did he instruct you to return the warrants?
A. The warrants were null and void then when the information was taken away. The warrants were transferred to the sheriff.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did you hear anybody make any threats against the railroad officers?
A. Well, Davis jumped on the switch, and swore that no trains should go out, that he would die in his tracks first. Those were the only threats I heard on Thursday.
Q. Were those directed against the railroad officers or any of their employés?
A. The threats were against the running out of the trains.
Q. Do you know anybody going to the officers of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, and advising them to leave the city for fear that they would suffer violence?
A. Not to my own knowledge.
Q. You did not hear anybody make such threats?
A. No.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. When did you first get the warrants for the arrest of those men—what day was it?
A. It seems to me the warrants were issued on Thursday afternoon or Friday morning, but I am not positive about that. I can refer to the warrants and see.
Q. How long did you hold them before you got notice that the information was withdrawn.
A. I think the warrants were held by me—I am not positive about the time that they were issued to me—but it seems to me that the warrants were in my hands; just one day and night.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Were not your instructions to quietly take those men?
A. My instructions were to quietly take those men up. They were my instructions. At the time the warrants were issued there was considerable excitement, and the instructions I got in relation to it were that after the excitement allayed somewhat, the warrants could be quietly served without bringing about a conflict, and owing to the pretty slim police force, it was considered wise to wait until the trouble would be over.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Who gave you those instructions?
A. The mayor—the chief of detectives, I think it was. I do not say the mayor, but one of my superior officers, I know it was.
Q. Who was the chief of detectives at that time?
A. Mr. O'Mara, I believe.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Your instructions were to wait until the excitement was allayed?
A. Yes.
Q. And not to go after your men that night after the men had retired to their homes, and take them up quietly, and take them to the station house?
A. My impression is, that the men did not retire to their homes on that day or night; the crowd kept there all night, or staid around the tracks at Twenty-eighth street, and also at Torrens station.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was any effort made by the police to disperse the crowd during the night?
A. I was not there.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Could you at any time have taken the men out of the crowd with your force?
A. If they had resisted I could not, I know.
Q. Could you not have quietly slipped up and taken them?
A. Those men I had warrants for were employés of the road, and I did not know anything about their being in any crowd, but it appears they were active leaders. I did not know they were in any crowd, but owing to the state of excitement at the time, it was considered advisable to wait until the excitement was allayed before arresting those men.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Who made the information against those men?
A. I think it was Mr. Watt. That is my impression. The information was drawn by Messrs. Hampton and Dalzell, and sworn to by Mr. Watt.
Roger O'Mara, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. No. 267 Webster avenue.
Q. What was your business in July last?
A. I was chief of detectives of the city of Pittsburgh.
Q. Were you in the city on the 10th of July?
A. Yes.
Q. State what knowledge you have of any disturbance of the peace on that day?
A. The first knowledge I had, Mr. Watt came to the mayor's office that morning. I was in the office at the time. He stated that there was a disturbance, that the men were on a strike, and he wanted to get some officers to go out with him. Our force was reduced shortly before that, and no men were on duty in the day time. We only had one hundred and twenty men, and ten were lamp watchers, and ten were at the station-houses. One hundred and one in all were left for police duty.
Q. State what occurred?
A. I asked Mr. Watt how many men he thought would do, and he said about ten men. I had the men gathered up from those men who were dropped from the rolls, and brought them in there, and told Officer Fowler to take charge of them, and to go with Mr. Watt. I afterwards asked the mayor, and he told me that Mr. McGovern should be placed in charge. I then sent him on up.
Q. Did you have any difficulty in getting the men you wanted?
A. I gathered them in about five minutes. I just asked for ten, and got them.
Q. Plenty of others were willing to go?
A. I suppose so.
Q. Was anything said between Mr. Watt and the mayor about the pay of the men?
A. Mr. Watt told me he would pay the men.
Q. Who introduced that subject of pay?
A. I do not know. I told him these men are not on the force, but we could gather them up if he agreed to pay them.
Q. They went then?
A. Yes; in charge of McGovern.
Q. State what occurred from the time that they went away—whether any report was made to you or not?
A. I understood about the trouble. McGovern told me about arresting this party after he came back.
Q. Was any report made to you of what occurred?
A. I had a conversation with him after he came back.
Q. At what time?
A. About four o'clock on Thursday.
Q. What did he state to you when he came back?
A. He told me he had arrested that party—that Mr. Watt went to turn the switch, and somebody hit him, and he arrested him, and put him in the Twelfth ward station-house. Information was afterwards made against some ten parties.
Q. What time was that?
A. I think on Thursday afternoon, after this arrest.
Q. You say against some ten parties?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In whose hands were the warrants placed?
A. They were given to me first. A lawyer in Mr. Hampton's office was here. He had them drawn up. I gave the warrants to McGovern. On account of the excitement we proposed to locate the parties in their houses, and to get them there. But the next morning a young man in Hampton's office came in and told me not to make the arrests until further orders. I thought then that the men were going to work, perhaps. I then told McGovern not to make the arrests.
Q. Do you state you told McGovern not to arrest the men, but to get them at their houses?
A. Yes.
Q. How many policemen do you think you could have gathered up that afternoon for duty?
A. I have no idea how many. A good many of them were about there just at the time that Mr. Watt came in and said he wanted some. We might have gotten thirty then. More went out afterwards.
Q. Who sent them out?
A. I do not know. But I understood, however, more men were wanted, and they were sent out.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. These men that were picked up—these men that had been dropped from the rolls, did they go out on the ground in uniform, or did they go out in citizen's dress?
A. I guess some in uniform and some in citizen's dress. I cannot say whether they were in uniform or not.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Were they armed as usual with maces?
A. I cannot say that.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. Usually when you send out a squad, don't you arm them with maces?
A. Yes; but these men were not on the rolls, and I just gathered them up, and sent them out as quickly as possible.
Q. If not armed, they would not have been of much use?
A. No; not of much use, if there was much disturbance, without arms.
Q. You do not know whether they were armed or not?
A. I do not, because I did not go out with them.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was there any call made on the night force for it?
A. I do not think there was that night.
Q. They were on duty regularly on Thursday evening, I suppose?
A. Throughout the city, yes.
Q. The one hundred and one men were on service throughout the city proper?
A. On Thursday night, yes.
Q. None of them went to the scene of this disturbance?
A. Not to my knowledge, except the men on in that district.
Q. How many men were regularly stationed in that district?
A. I suppose about ten men were on in that district—the third district—from the Union depot to Twenty-eighth street. The lieutenant in charge of the district may have had his men there.
Q. Who had charge of that district?
A. Henry Coates, I think. I think he had charge of it.
Q. Were any of them sent out there on Friday morning—any of the night force?
A. I do not think they were, to my knowledge.
Q. Or during the day Friday, at any time?
A. I do not know that they were.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Were you at the scene of the disturbance at any time during the trouble?
A. I was out there on Sunday morning early, along the line on Liberty street. There was a good deal of trouble about the city, and we were gathering the police in and sending them out throughout the city. We were afraid that the mob would break into the gun shops. The excitement was so great that I thought they might attempt to break into places, and so I gathered the men up and sent them to different places.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. If the mayor had made a call for policemen on Thursday afternoon, how many men could he have raised?
A. I do not know. I have no idea.
Q. Would there have been any difficulty in raising any number of policemen, do you think?
A. There might have been some. That call was made through the Sunday papers, and a good many responded.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. How many officers and men does the night force consist of?
A. The whole force was one hundred and twenty men—nine of them were engaged in the station-houses, and ten of them watched lamps—patrolmen, detectives, and all. That was for the whole city.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How many men were discharged from the day force?
A. One hundred and sixteen men were discharged. Our whole force consisted of two hundred and thirty-six men, all told. The appropriation ran out, and we had to knock the men off.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What reason was given by the officer for not serving the warrants? He had them one night, had he not?
A. We did not get the houses all located. It seems they were out that night, and we could not get them served, and the next morning we were ordered not to serve them. The case was put into the hands of the sheriff on Friday, I think.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. While you had those warrants for the arrest of those ten men, could you not have arrested them?
A. I do not think, with the few men we could have got, that we could have arrested them out there, on account of those men out there. It might have made the thing worse if we had attempted to arrest them on the ground. I thought it was better to arrest them away from there.
Q. Did you attempt to locate them at their homes that night—you did not go to their homes?
A. No; we did not go to their homes, but we got information from the parties who made the information.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did you have any arrangement to watch those men?
A. From all accounts, the men seemed to be in the crowd. We had no one watching their houses that night, because we did not find out that night were they all lived.
Q. Did you not have men to watch these men or follow them around?
A. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Didn't you see some of these men out there on Friday?
A. I did not. I was not out there.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. How did you expect to know that these men went to their homes, if you did not follow them or have them watched?
A. The warrants were withdrawn before we located the men.
Q. What efforts were you making to locate them?
A. We were making inquiries from parties who knew them.
Q. Were you trying all the time to find out where they were?
A. We asked the parties who made the information. We wanted to locate them all, and to make the arrests. We did not expect to arrest them in the crowd. We thought we could not do it there.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. Did you have any spotters out in the crowd at all?
A. Several of the officers there saw the different parties, and what they did. Or, if information was made against them, we had them arrested and tried. Some of them are not tried yet. Any of the officers who knew any men, or saw them do anything, afterwards made information against them.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. The officers reported to you, did they?
A. Some of them.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. You being the chief of detectives, did you send any men out to spot those parties?
A. No, sir; after Friday, the thing was taken out of our hands. If any party gave information in regard to what was done, we would have them arrested. The detectives were out. We made inquiries of people as to what they saw other people do.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Was it not on Saturday morning that you considered the complaint withdrawn upon which the warrants were based?
A. I think on Friday, it was, that I was notified to hold them until further orders.
Q. Was it not on Saturday morning instead of on Friday morning?
A. My recollection is, that it was Friday.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Were you present at any time during the destruction of the property of the railroad company by fire?
A. I was along the line Sunday morning, in Liberty street. I drove along with the mayor in a buggy. My mother and sister both lived back of the Union depot, and they were burned out. I tried to help them get their things away.
Q. During the fire, were you ever called on by the chief of the fire department, or by anybody connected with the fire department, to protect them in their attempts to put out the fire?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know of any other officer of the police force being called upon to assist them?
A. No.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did you take any measures to prevent this destruction?
A. We could not do anything after the first firing was done. With what police force we had, we could do nothing at all. They commenced breaking into houses, and gun stores, &c., and we tried to prevent them from doing that.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you see them breaking into any gun stores?
A. Yes; on Penn street I saw a couple of men breaking into a pawn shop. I heard of the mob coming, and I hurried up the officers, and placed men in front of different gun stores, but on Wood street they got into one in spite of the men. Before that, we had notified the different parties to put their guns away, that the excitement was very great, and that the soldiers had fired upon the men, and that they would be apt to break into places to try to get arms. I notified the different parties to put their goods away that the mob should not get them.
Q. Who composed that crowd—did you recognize any of them?
A. They seemed to be working men—men that came from the south side. One squad that came from the south side—I saw them going down the street—a couple of young men—the same that I saw marching down Penn street. Some of them have been arrested since.
Q. You think the men were principally from the south side who broke into the gun stores?
A. About the time that they broke into them, at different places, I had squads of men. On Fifth street a couple of young men came down firing off guns, and I went to the mayor's office for more men, and I was not there two minutes when word came that Brown's gun store was broke into. I then got some men and placed them in front of the door.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you succeed in keeping the crowd out then?
A. Yes; but it was not much good then, for the things were gone. They had ransacked the place.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What time was that?
A. It was on Saturday night. It was just about dusk when this party came down, and went in on Liberty street and on Penn street. I was going up that way towards Twenty-eighth street, when I saw this mob coming down. I followed on down to see what they proposed to do.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You had no men stationed about any of these gun stores before they broke into them?
A. Yes, sir; at Brown's, on Wood street.
Q. Were they uniformed men?
A. Yes; on the regular city force. I sent them to the places where I thought they were most needed, and I tried to prevent the mob from getting fire-arms.
Charles McGovern, re-called.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Were those men that you took to Twenty-eighth street dressed in uniform?
A. No; just a few of them had vests on with uniform buttons on. And all of them that had badges about them, I had them place them on their coats in order to show that they were officers.
Q. Were there any that had neither vests nor badges among them?
A. I think there were. Some of them did not happen to have anything with which to show that they were officers.
Q. Were they armed in any way?
A. No.
Q. They had no maces?
A. No; they were taken out in a hurry from the city hall—just taken out on the spur of the moment.
Q. What time were those warrants placed in your hands for the arrest of those parties?
A. My recollection of the warrants—I could very easily give you a definite answer if I had time to go to the office and refer to my memoranda. Then I could tell you. But I think it was Friday. That is my impression. I think it was Friday morning or Thursday afternoon.
Q. How long did you keep them in your possession?
A. A day, I think, and a night. That is my impression.
Q. Did you make any effort to arrest the parties?
A. We were so busy on other matters that there was no effort made, any more than to make inquiries and locating the parties. We did not anticipate any trouble in getting them after the excitement was somewhat allayed.
Q. Did you go to their houses during the time that you had the warrants?
A. No.
Q. Did you try to spot the men among the crowd?
A. No; I cannot say that I did, because it was a secondary consideration in regard to those men. The information was interfering with railroad employés, and we considered it a light matter towards what was going on at Twenty-eighth street—the riotous proceedings. We were kept busy that day and night trying to keep order.
Q. Those men were all participating in the riot as leaders when you first went out there?
A. I do not know that of my own knowledge, but I, of course, inferred it from the fact of the information made against them.
Q. Did you know any of the ten or twelve men that stood around, trying to prevent the arrest of McCall?
A. None of them tried to prevent the arrest of McCall. I knew some of them by face and a few by name.
Q. Were any of those men's names included in those warrants?
A. I believe they were, but I did not have those warrants at the time.
Q. You did not get them until that evening or the next morning?
A. I think it was the next morning.
Q. Then you did not go up to arrest them when you got the warrants?
A. Not immediately. It was considered a matter of judgment at the office by the mayor, and, of course, I was under his instructions.
Q. You followed the mayor's instructions?
A. Not specially his instructions, but chief O'Mara's instructions. I considered it would be easier to serve them afterwards than at the present time.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. When you summoned those men to go out, you did not provide them with maces and equipments as you usually do?
A. The police force of this city provide everything for themselves. If they want to carry a pistol, they must provide it. Our maces we buy, and our clothes we buy. The city supplies nothing. At one time the city supplied those things, but now we have got to supply all those things ourselves. We did not think it would be necessary to have them armed at that time.
Q. At the time of a row, if the men are armed, it is all right, and if they are not armed, it is all right, too?
A. It was a sudden summons, and nobody understood the extent of it. Of course, the gentleman who summoned us, said he did not anticipate any serious trouble at all; that he thought that our official appearance would be sufficient; that the presence of the officers there would be all that was necessary.
Q. But you, as an officer, did not exactly believe in official appearance, without something to knock down with in case of a row?
A. In case of a riot we ought to be provided with arms; but there was no riot at that time, nor did we anticipate any.
[A paper exhibited to witness.]
Q. State whether this is the information made upon which the warrants were issued?
A. I never saw it.
Q. What did you do with the warrants?
A. They are still in the office.
Q. You returned them to the mayor?
A. No; they are still in the closet at the office. I think they are there yet. I may have destroyed them.
Q. Do you know the date of the warrants?
A. I cannot remember the date. I told you I thought it was Thursday evening or Friday; that would be the 19th or 20th.
John J. Davis, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. No. 114, Sixteenth street, on the south side.
Q. What was your business in July last?
A. I was clerk to the chief of police.
Q. Where were you on the 19th day of July—Thursday?
A. At the mayor's office, and at the railroad.
Q. State if you have any knowledge of the disturbances that occurred?
A. I was not at the railroad during the time of the disturbances.
Q. Did you receive information of them?
A. We got a second dispatch, or rather a young man came from the ticket office asking for fifty men. I was present in the office at the time.
Q. What time did you receive that dispatch?
A. Between twelve and one o'clock.
Q. By whom was it signed?
A. I cannot say now. It was brought by a young man at the ticket office?
Q. You mean the railroad ticket office?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Asking for fifty men?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. To whom was it addressed?
A. To the mayor. I started out and hunted up all the men I could find, and during my progress I saw the mayor, and he gave me orders to hunt up all the men I could, both the old men and the men that had been dropped. I met him on Fifth avenue.
Q. Did you inform him of the dispatch?
A. I did, and he ordered me to hunt up all the men I could possibly find.
Q. How many did you get?
A. In the neighborhood of twenty-five or twenty-eight that afternoon. I can not say exactly.
Q. What did you do with them?
A. Some went out on a train, and some walked out. I went out with one squad, with Mr. White. We saw Mr. Watt, and he suggested the sending of the men to Torrens station, six or eight of them; the balance of them stayed at Twenty-eighth street.
Q. What time did you meet the mayor on Fifth avenue?
A. I suppose five minutes after the dispatch came. I started out and went down to the station-house to see if any officers were there, but I found none there. I then went two squares, and on my way coming back, I met the mayor on Fifth avenue. It was not over five or ten minutes.
Q. You informed him about the dispatch calling for fifty men?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was he during the rest of that afternoon?
A. As I stated before, I went to Twenty-eighth street, and stayed there all that afternoon.
Q. Did you have any communication with him that afternoon?
A. No; everything was quiet at Twenty-eighth street that afternoon. My instructions were to communicate if anything was wrong. I went to Torrens station about four o'clock. Quite a crowd was there.
Q. What was the crowd doing?
A. They were watching to see if any trains would go out. It was curiosity.
Q. How many were there?
A. One hundred or one hundred and fifty, while I was there.
Q. Of whom was this crowd composed?
A. Of laboring men, and railroad men, and business men, and women and children.
Q. All mixed together?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were the railroad men noisy and boisterous?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Were they stopping the trains?
Q. The only one I saw stopped was at Twenty-eighth street.
Q. What time was that?
A. I heard the men saying it was three-forty, schedule time.
Q. They stopped it?
A. They started out, and three or four officers were put on the engine. After they started, some parties got on the track and waved their hands, and the engine stopped and the engineer jumped off. The officers were still on the engine after the engineer got off.
Q. You simply called for volunteers when you went out to hunt up those men?
A. Only one man refused to go.
Q. Was any demand made on the night force that afternoon?
A. The mayor instructed me to hunt up all the men I could find, both the men on duty and the men dropped, and I did so.
Q. The men on regular duty went out, did they?
A. Those that I found. At that time we only had one hundred and twenty men, including lamp-washers and station-house keepers.
Q. How many men did you get that afternoon on actual duty—the night force?
A. To my best recollection, five or six, but I won't be positive. I only sent in the bill for the men not on regular duty—twenty-nine the company paid for—for those men on duty we sent in no bill at all. It was only for the men not paid by the city.
Q. How long were those men on duty there?
A. Until morning. They reported at the office between seven and seven and a half o'clock.
Q. Friday morning?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All of them?
A. Some went home for breakfast.
Q. Were they sent on duty again?
A. They were sent out to the depot in the morning, but they came back and said they were not wanted, that Officer Fox had all the men he wanted.
Q. Who was he?
A. He has charge of the officers around the depot.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. He is an employé of the railroad?
A. I think so.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did he tell you that he had all the men that they wanted?
A. The men I sent up to the depot reported that to me.
Q. Who reported that?
A. Officer William Johnson. Several of them, I think. Officer Crosby. The men came back and they said that they were not wanted. He kept three at the depot, M. A. Davis, Matthew Goddard, and Ernest Ehring.
Q. Where was the mayor during the night?
A. When I came back in the evening, about seven o'clock, I brought the men to supper, and after they had supper, I sent them out again, and I went to the office. I am not positive whether I saw the mayor there or not. I am not positive about that. The next time I saw him, was in the neighborhood of twelve o'clock, at the office.
Q. Thursday night?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did he remain during the balance of the night?
A. In the office. I stayed there also all night.
Q. Were you out during the night?
A. I went out and stayed until about ten o'clock, and then I came back.
Q. Did the mayor have any communication with the men out there during the night?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Where was the chief of police during the night?
A. I cannot say that.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You say you sent the men back on Friday. Where did you instruct them to go—to the Union depot or to Twenty-eighth street?
A. To the Union depot. I directed them to ask if they were wanted, and they came back and said that they were told that they were not wanted; that they had all the men they wanted.
Q. Do you know where the mayor was on Friday?
A. I cannot answer that, because I was at Twenty-eighth street, almost all day on Friday. My instructions were to go there, and if I saw a disturbance, to telegraph immediately to the city to the office.
Q. You did not see him on the ground at any time?
A. No—not on Thursday nor on Friday.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. While you were there, on Friday, did you see any effort made to take possession of the tracks?
A. No; no effort was made at all.
Q. You saw no disturbance at all on Friday?
A. No.
Q. Or Saturday?
A. No disturbance, until after the trouble about the firing.
Q. Was any effort made during Friday to run out trains?
A. Not while I was there—not on Friday.
Q. The crowd was there?
A. Quite a crowd was gathered there. They appeared to be going and coming all day.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You saw no effort made on Friday. How long were you there on Friday?
A. I suppose I was there three quarters of the day—walking all along, and seeing what was going on.
Q. There might have been an effort made, and you not have seen it?
A. Yes, sir.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. It appeared to be an orderly assemblage?
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What were they doing?
A. Standing together and chatting—talking.
Q. Standing there all day?
A. They appeared to be coming and going.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did the subject of conversation appear to be the stopping of the trains?
A. I did not hear them.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What were they there for?
A. For curiosity, I suppose.
Q. Where is this William Johnson that you spoke of?
A. He is on the police force now.
Q. What is Crosby's first name?
A. George.
Philip Demmel, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. No. 26 Twelfth street, in the south side.
Q. What was your business during last July?
A. I was chief of the police of Pittsburgh.
Q. State whether any knowledge was brought to you in regard to the disturbance at Twenty-eighth street, on the 19th of July, and if so, state what time it was.
A. I came to the office sometime after dinner, and went into the mayor's office, and I was told that some of the railroad employés had gone on a strike at about Twenty-eighth street, and that Mr. Watt had sent for some policemen, and that about ten or a dozen had been sent out in charge of Detective McGovern. A short time after a dispatch came in signed by Mr. Watt, asking for fifty more men. I went on the street myself then. Our police force, of course, was in bed. They did duty at night. I went on the street, and saw a few of those discharged men, and asked them to go. Some went and some did not. I did not hear anything more of it until evening, when I came in from supper. They reported then that one man had been arrested, and after that everything was quiet. The men got their suppers, and we sent them out again. There were only a few that would not go. In the morning they came back—those who were on duty all night—and some of them said that the railroad officers had got as many men as they thought sufficient, and that the military was called out. It was thought at the mayor's office then that the services of the police would not be needed any longer.
Q. That the services of the police would not be needed any longer, you say?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did the mayor say that?
A. I do not remember that the mayor said that, but——
Q. That was the decision you came to?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. After a consultation with the mayor, was it?
A. I cannot recollect any direct consultation with the mayor.
By Mr. Reyburn:
Q. Was he there?
A. Yes, sir; but I am satisfied that he was of the same opinion.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did Officer McGovern report to the mayor during the afternoon?
A. I believe he came in before the rest came for supper, and reported this disturbance—about a man being arrested for striking Mr. Watt, and he then reported all quiet after that.
Q: Did he report to you by telegraph?
A. No; yes—I believe they did telegraph this arrest first from the Twelfth ward station.
Q. You have arrangements at the station-house to receive reports from all parts of the city, have you not?
A. From eight different parts of the city—yes, sir.
Q. From that portion of the city?
A. Yes, sir; there is a station-house within two blocks of Twenty-eighth street.
Q. Did you receive any report from Officer McGovern during the afternoon?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the nature of it?
A. That all was quiet—that this man had been arrested for striking Mr. Watt.
Q. Was there a dispatch sent you, or communicated to you from Mr. Watt during the afternoon, that he wanted fifty more men?
A. Yes, sir.