Q. Where was that?
A. Somewhere in the neighborhood of the arsenal—probably two squares from the arsenal. That confusion lasted two or three minutes, probably, and the Second brigade was just put on the right, and order was immediately restored. At one time there was a little difficulty about drawing the Gatling guns, and I know I assisted myself in pulling a gun some distance with my men.
Q. Was there any demoralization during the night in the round-house?
A. Not a particle—so far as I saw—not a particle.
Q. The discipline was good at the time you were in the round-house?
A. Yes; I had sentinels on front, and they observed their duty perfectly, and my whole command was in excellent condition.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was there any disobedience of orders on the part of the officers or men?
A. No; occasionally there would be a man that didn't have any experience in the field, as there will always be men who will shirk their duty. Once in a while there would be a man indifferent to his duty, but that was simply in isolated cases just as you would see in the army. I saw it in the army of the Potomac. As a whole the discipline of the troops in the round-house was excellent.
Q. You state you thought there was some musket firing or rifle firing from the mob at Twenty-eighth street.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see any musket firing?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see any muskets or rifles in the hands of the mob?
A. I cannot say that I saw—yes I did. I saw it on Saturday morning after leaving the round-house, as we were going up the street. I saw these men firing into us all night. I saw them have muskets. On Saturday afternoon I saw firing that must have come from muskets. I know the difference, and I judged from the sound and the smoke. The firing couldn't have been done with pistols.
Q. Were any of the military struck by pistol or rifle shots before they commenced firing on the mob?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear any command given to fire?
A. On Saturday afternoon?
Q. After this firing from the mob—following the stones thrown at the military.
A. No; I cannot say that I did. I am positive I did not; therefore I didn't fire nor order my men to fire.
Q. Did you hear a command from any officer to cease firing?
A. I do not remember any command to cease firing.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did you see General Pearson at that time?
A. I saw him once that afternoon. That is the time we were going up from the Union depot to the Twenty-eighth street crossing; at least I saw a major general I took to be General Pearson.
Q. Did you hear any general give a command in this way: "Order your men to fire?"
A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. How was General Pearson dressed?
A. If this was General Pearson, he had a military coat on with shoulder straps, and no sword.
Q. A cap?
A. I think he had a cap on.
Q. You saw no belt?
A. I think he had no sword nor belt.
Q. After you left the round-house and were marching along Penn avenue, did you see any police officers fire at you?
A. No; I didn't see any firing. I saw them in front of a police-station, and I saw them with pistols; but I know a man that did see them fire.
Q. Did they make any hostile demonstration?
A. Yes—no; I cannot say that I saw any hostile demonstrations, except in their manner. They looked at us with a forbidding sort of manner.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did they have pistols in their hands?
A. Yes.
E. Wallace Mathews, sworn:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. In Philadelphia—No. 4105 Walnut street.
Q. What is your connection with the National Guard—what is your rank?
A. At present I am not in the National Guard. During the July riots I occupied the position of brigadier general, and was in command of the First brigade, First division.
Q. State whether you were at Twenty-eighth street on Saturday, the 21st, when the collision occurred between the troops and the mob?
A. I was in the neighborhood of Twenty-eighth street, near the railway crossing, in command of my brigade.
Q. State what occurred prior to the firing?
A. The troops had been marching in column of fours, preceded by a gentleman in citizen's dress, who was pointed out to me as the sheriff of the county, and directly in advance of us was General Brinton and an officer dressed in fatigue uniform—a major general—who was pointed out to me as General Pearson. We marched toward Twenty-eighth street, in which was a dense crowd. The crowd was pressing upon both flanks, and was very dense in front, on Twenty-eighth street, at the crossing.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You marched with the right in front?
A. Yes. The order of the troops was as follows: The First regiment, under command of Colonel Benson; next the Third regiment, commanded by Colonel Snowden; third an independent company, the Weccacoe Legion; then followed the Gatling guns, with a detachment from some of the different commands to haul them, including one of my independent companies, the Washington Grays. We marched in this order, and we marched into the crowd until we couldn't march any further on account of the pressure ahead of us. Then, by direction or command of General Brinton, when the crowd in the neighborhood of Twenty-eighth street became so dense that we could not penetrate it, the fours were wheeled into line, facing our left flank, that is, facing the Allegheny river. Then, by order of General Brinton, the brigade was marched directly to the front, and across the tracks slowly, the men with their pieces at a carry, thus backing the crowd off from the tracks, the purpose being, as I was informed, to clear the tracks. The crowd was pushed gently back, until they were pushed entirely off the tracks that were free from cars; but there were several open cars in the vicinity, and we saw that in attempting to clear the tracks we had already cleared, perhaps, four tracks. Then, by direction of General Brinton, the front rank was left in this place, and the rear rank was brought to about face, and marched to the rear, thus clearing the few men gathered in the rear.
Q. How far did you march to the rear?
A. About twenty feet.
Q. Across the tracks?
A. Yes—twenty or thirty feet—facing the hill so that the front two ranks were facing outward, opposite each other. Their backs were towards the center. The crowd on our right, that is on Twenty-eighth street, were very demonstrative and noisy, and began to press in between the open ranks. By General Brinton's orders, the Washington Grays were brought forward to drive out the crowd between the two ranks. They proved to be insufficient. They were only nine men beside the officer, and the Weccacoe Legion was brought forward to assist them, and General Brinton actively superintended the effort to drive the crowd out. That is where the first mélée occurred in driving out the men who had intruded between the two ranks. As the general took direct command, I didn't interfere. During that trouble some of the crowd, I believe, were hurt by bayonet thrusts, and then commenced pistol firing, and then almost simultaneously from every direction came pieces of coal and stones and all sorts of missiles, in a great measure from the hill and also from the cars—I think some were loaded with coal—and from Twenty-eighth street, mingled with pistol shots and shouting, so that it was a scene of confusion I never saw equaled. We were without orders, and I saw nothing of General Pearson there at that time. General Brinton I saw occasionally moving about in different places. I watched the crowd, because I saw they were very much incensed, fearing for my men. I saw them in several instances seize the muskets of the men, and I knew that many of them were young men, and I feared if such a movement as that became general, they would disarm my men. Consequently, I watched very closely the temper of the crowd, until I became convinced we couldn't temporize any longer, and I gave the command to load.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. How long before the firing did you give the command to load?
A. Not more than one minute, I should judge; and there had been pistol firing.
Q. From the mob?
A. Yes.
Q. Before you ordered your men to load?
A. Yes. Then, before I could take decided action in the matter, the firing commenced somewhere on the right, as near as I could judge, in the ranks of the Weccacoe Legion, or the artillery corps, Washington Grays. I heard no order to fire, and I gave no order to fire. The firing commenced first, a single piece, and then one or two near together, and then it became general on the right of the First regiment, and ran down as far as the center of the regiment, and as far as the close. Immediately all the officers, from all I saw—I remember Colonel Benson and his lieutenant—Colonel Clark—together with the staff officers and myself, attempted to stop the firing. We rushed among the troops in order not only to make ourselves seen, but felt and heard, and gave orders to cease firing. The crowd scattered entirely as soon as the firing commenced. We then moved immediately to the right, covering Twenty-eighth street, and took possession of that, in other words, brought up the Gatling guns, by order of General Brinton, and placed them on the street. One to command twenty-eighth street, and the other to command the tracks eastward. Then a company of the First regiment were brought—as the crowd attempted to cross on to Twenty-eighth street—were brought entirely across that street in the rear, and stretched across the street, in that direction, to keep the people back. Gradually the crowd began to get together in knots, and assemble in our front, and some of the more violent among them, who seemed to be under the influence of liquor or partially intoxicated—some of them came up to within three or four feet, and shook their fists in our faces, and called us vile epithets, in order to break our lines. I saw no disposition on the part of the troops, not even the privates, to hurt anybody, except in self defense. In some cases they allowed the rioters to push through their lines, and get inside. In this way the crowd gathered in little knots, and came nearer, and got more and more bold, until I gave directions for one or two companies commanding Twenty-eighth street to bring their pieces to a ready, when the crowd immediately dispersed, showing that they still feared any application of lead. We then held this position until about dusk, when, by direction of General Brinton, I brought the brigade, marching left in front, into the round-house. There was no explanation given me at the time, so far as I remember, why we were taken into the round-house; but it being night, I presumed we were to be quartered there.
Q. By whose command?
A. I received my commands from General Brinton. We marched into the round-house, and around the circle, nearly covering the entire circle, the Third regiment, under Colonel Snowden, being stationed, as they had followed in line, opposite the Liberty street windows of the round-house. General Brinton and some of his staff and myself, with some of my staff, then went around the building, looked at the windows, and determined to put on a strong guard, and I gave the orders accordingly. The detail was made, and the guard was stationed at those windows, and I then attempted to get a little rest, but, after a few hours, about ten o'clock, some firing commenced, and, after the firing once commenced, there was no such thing as rest. I spent almost the whole night in the round-house proper. Where I attempted to rest was in the building that had been occupied as the telegraph office at the outer depot.
Q. In the round-house?
A. Immediately adjoining—three or four feet from the round-house. We had to increase the guard after the firing commenced. Had to put men at each window on the Liberty street side, and on the side of the yard on that side of the building towards Twenty-eighth street. I think we increased the guard, perhaps, twice during the night. At one time during the night, about one o'clock, I received information that a piece of artillery was in Liberty street, and I immediately hastened to the window, and saw a brass piece, which I judged to be a Napoleon gun.
Q. What time was that?
A. About one o'clock on Sunday morning. Several men were standing about it, and General Brinton was there, and Colonel Snowden. I asked if I should send out a detachment to capture the gun, and bring it in, but he didn't give me direct permission, but gave me some encouragement, and I went immediately to Colonel Benson to consult him about it, and asked for a detail——
Q. Who was Colonel Benson?
A. The commander of the First regiment. While consulting him about this matter, the Third regiment opened fire, as I understood, by direction of General Brinton, on the crowd surrounding the piece, and from that time on there was more or less firing. As the mob would come forward and make a demonstration as if they were going to fire the piece, the men at the windows would fire on them, but, after a time, they restrained firing, and ordered them to go back; and that became a by-word through the division, "Go back, go back, one, two, three," and then discharge.
Q. Was there any firing at that time from the mob outside on the troops?
A. Yes; pistol firing and gun firing—from some sort of guns. From that time until morning there was a good deal of firing. There was one party that was firing an explosive bullet, which would come through the windows and strike and explode.
Q. Explode after they came into the round-house?
A. Yes.
Q. You mean explosive shells, fired from a rifle?
A. Yes; small things. One struck on a column not more than four feet from where I was. I happened to be looking in that direction, and I saw it. First there was a sharp crack, and then I saw the smoke and some white ashes drop down from that spot. From that I knew very well that it was an explosive bullet. Further on towards morning, some burning cars were run in between our troops and the cannon, and from that time on we had very little firing there. Then some cars were stopped on the next building from the round-house, towards Twenty-eighth street, and that building took fire. General Brinton had organized a fire brigade, and had the fires put out. I didn't witness it myself, but understood it. He had put out those burning cars, so the round-house was not set on fire by the burning cars; but the machine-shop next took fire, and we could not find any means to put that out. The burning of that decided our case, for the round-house was connected with that by buildings filled with light kindling wood used by locomotives for firing up, and the burning of that building also sent columns of smoke down into our open round-house and cinders, and after a time the building itself took fire. I was then called after day light into a council, by General Brinton, who stated that he had received orders from General Latta, in case of moving out to go out eastward to Penn avenue—I understood it. There was a young man there from the Jefferson Cavalry, and he told where Penn avenue was—and for that matter, I knew myself—and when it was decided, the general gave me orders to take my brigade out first. I formed with Colonel Benson, of the First regiment, and Colonel Snowden, of the Third, and the Weccacoe Legion, and the Washington Grays, with the Gatling guns, and we issued out upon Liberty street.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. The round-house was on fire?
A. I think the building itself was on fire. At any rate it was only a question of a few minutes. After those other buildings were fired it could not have been saved.
Q. Would it have been possible for your troops to have remained there?
A. It would not have been possible—not many minutes more.
Q. Was the round-house filled with smoke?
A. The whole building was so filled with smoke—the smoke was so dense that it was difficult to see.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Before you left?
A. Yes.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. After coming out and manœuvering in the street, your troops were steady and kept in good order?
A. I was at the head of the line, where I thought my services were most required—at the very head of the line, in advance of the First regiment, nothing being ahead of me, excepting a small skirmish line of a dozen men stretched across to clear the street, and on looking back I never saw a regiment march in better condition, even in the streets of Philadelphia, or march in parade in better order. They had their arms at right shoulder, and were in perfect order. After we had been besieged there and harassed all night, it nerved me, when I looked back at that sight, when I saw those men come out in such gallant style, after being harassed all night, and unaccustomed as they were to fighting. We went down Twenty-fifth street to Penn avenue, and out Penn avenue to the arsenal. From my position at the head of the line, I didn't see any firing in the street. As we went along, people on either side were looking at us, and I was quite anxious about this little skirmish line, and was keeping my eye on them to see that they didn't get nervous, and on that account may not have seen as much as the others. I didn't see any firing from our flanks or in any direction, until we arrived at the arsenal. We halted there, and I saw the guard let General Brinton in, and I think one or two pressed in with them; but after a time they came back again. During that time there was some firing in the rear. We heard them hallooing there, and I distinctly heard firing in the rear, which increased, and then I noticed that the troops in our rear had become somewhat confused, and did not keep their alignment, and some of them came up into my brigade. My brigade then took the left, and Colonel Benson put his regiment in the rear, putting his command on the two sides of the street, so that they could command the windows. Those on the right side of the street commanding the windows opposite, and vice versa.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you march in that form?
A. Yes; and after that we were not disturbed. We marched to the Sharpsburg bridge, and crossed it, and in Sharpsburg we received a few pieces of bread, and passed on over the hill.
Q. From whom?
A. From citizens, I think.
Q. Of Sharpsburg?
A. I think so.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Were your troops exhausted by want of food?
A. Very much. I didn't get even a piece of bread, but I saw some that had that. I received nothing personally until we passed a mile and a half, perhaps, beyond Sharpsburg, and there I obtained a little buttermilk.
Q. Just state in this connection what rations the troops had received from the time they left Philadelphia to the time that you reached Sharpsburg?
A. After leaving Philadelphia, received nothing until we got to Altoona. There the men were served with sandwiches and coffee—one or two sandwiches and a cup of coffee to each man. These provisions were handed in to the men. Then on arriving at Pittsburgh they were served with similar things—sandwiches and coffee.
Q. During the night of Saturday you had nothing?
A. We had nothing after marching to Twenty-eighth street.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. At what time did you get the last rations?
A. About three o'clock on Saturday afternoon.
Q. And you did not get anything after that until you reached Sharpsburg?
A. Nothing at all—excepting once in a while a soldier had put into his haversack an extra piece of bread.
Q. And this was three o'clock on Saturday afternoon, until that time on Sunday?
A. Nine o'clock, Sunday morning; and there was no serving of rations in Sharpsburg.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. It was every fellow for himself?
A. Yes: each one foraging for himself. Rations were not served until that night. So far as I saw, everything was paid for that was received. I know that I paid for the buttermilk I received.
Q. Did you know or hear of any order being given to General Brinton by Colonel Norris to move to Torrens station?
A. I heard of no such order.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Or from any one else?
A. No; I asked General Brinton frequently what his orders were, and so far as I know, he told me the orders he had. I heard of no such orders.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. If these orders had been given, do you think that General Brinton would have obeyed them and communicated the fact to you? You consulted together?
A. We did. I think he would have told me certainly if he had such orders. There was hardly any occasion to consult after we left the city.
Q. But during Saturday night?
A. I frequently saw him, and had he received such orders I would have heard of them.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you consult with him during the march from the round-house to Sharpsburg?
A. During the march, until my brigade was put on the left, I frequently saw General Brinton.
Q. Did you see Colonel Norris?
A. I didn't see him—to know him.
Q. Do you know him?
A. No; I saw a barouche later in the day in the vicinity of the arsenal, and I heard it stated that Colonel Norris was in the barouche.
Q. You stated that some cars were run between you and this gun?
A. Yes.
Q. What became of the gun after that?
A. I saw it from the windows—from the higher windows—I went up once for that purpose to look after that gun—and I found that provision had been made by General Brinton in regard to it. I think he had stationed some men of the Second brigade in the upper windows of the office of the building near the round-house, and towards which that gun was pointed.
Q. To pick off the gunners?
A. I understood that.
Q. Did you see any one with a lanyard in his hand fire that gun at any time?
A. I didn't. It would have been too dark up to daylight to see a lanyard.
Q. Did you see a light with the gun?
A. I didn't. I was with Colonel Benson consulting, at that time.
Q. Do you know it was a Napoleon?
A. No; I judged it was. I could see the gun distinctly, yet Colonel Benson could not see it at all. I would like to corroborate the testimony of Colonel Snowden in regard to the discipline of our troops in the round-house—of both brigades, so far as I saw them.
Q. In short, was the conduct of your troops commendable?
A. Perfectly so.
Q. Of officers and men?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you had experience in the army?
A. Yes. I entered the army early in 1861, in the infantry—the three months' service—and at the end of that time I raised a battery, and served as captain of that battery for a year and a half. I was then on detached duty for awhile, and then, in the spring of 1863, I rejoined the army of the Potomac as major of the First artillery—the same regiment my battery was connected with—and served on General Doubleday's staff, and was in active command of three batteries in the field, and was with my command in the beginning of Chancellorsville, and later on in the battle I served as chief of corps, and after that battle had command of eight batteries in the artillery reserve of the army of the Potomac.
Q. With the rank of major?
A. Yes.
Q. Of artillery?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know of any communications sent by General Brinton to General Latta while in the round-house?
A. I heard him say repeatedly that he had sent messages and received messages from General Latta.
Q. Did you see the communications from either one?
A. I saw one, but didn't read it.
Q. Do you know the nature of those communications?
A. Nothing except as I have stated that in case of leaving—this was near morning, I think—in case of leaving, to march out Penn avenue—whether it stated march east, or go by way of Penn avenue, it was something about Penn avenue. I knew where that was.
Q. From your experience as a military man, do you consider that it was a prudent move to go into the round-house with the troops at that time?
A. It is very easy to see mistakes after they are made. I can say, however, on general principles, it seemed to me at the time, as it has seemed since, that the first thing to be done was to disperse the mob. Until that was done, there was no safety in going into the round-house. That the troops needed rest, there can be no question. Standing in the sun, many of them had fallen from sheer exhaustion and the heat of the sun. Several of the men were lying about there, and they were applying water to them, if they could get it. There was complaint from all quarters that the men were exhausted, and some seemed to be sunstruck. In that condition, they needed rest, and their commanding officers wanted to give them rest, but it was evident that the mob must be dispersed before there could be much rest for them.
Q. Was not the mob already dispersed?
A. It was on the crossing, but they were continually gathering.
Q. They were re-assembling?
A. Yes; and some were very demonstrative and very violent.
Q. Did you see General Pearson in the round-house, after you retired there?
A. Yes; he was in the telegraph office, which was immediately adjoining the round-house. A building some four or five feet from the round-house. I think they called it the dispatcher's office. It was the office where the wires centered. It was a square building, directly opposite Twenty-sixth street. I saw General Pearson sitting at a desk writing, when I entered.
Q. In this telegraph office, adjoining the round-house?
A. Yes.
Q. How was he dressed?
A. There was not much light and I could not tell, except that he was dressed in the fatigue uniform of a major general. He had straps on his shoulders, with two stars.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did he have a blouse on?
A. I cannot say.
Q. Did he have a cap on?
A. I don't know. He may not have had any anything on his head in the house. When I saw the officer pointed out as General Pearson, on the tracks, I cannot tell whether he had a cap on or not, but it was something not unmilitary.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. But do not remember whether it was a hat or cap?
A. No. But if he had a silk hat on, with a soldier uniform, I should have noticed it.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Do you know of any telegrams passing between General Brinton and Colonel Scott in regard to General Brinton clearing those tracks?
A. I do not know of any communications whatever, between them; but I am very confident, I am positive, I heard General Brinton say—we said to each other during the afternoon, we have possession of those tracks, and why don't they send out their trains.
Q. Then, in your opinion, they could have sent out trains, so far as you had possession of the tracks?
A. So far as the tracks were cleared up to the point where we were. But we understood the reason to be that the men would not serve.
Q. That they refused to run?
A. That was the excuse we heard; but there was no time during the afternoon, after the first firing, when the crowd were cleared from our immediate neighborhood, and no time, only during the night, that I did not feel as a military officer, that we had command of the position, and were competent to deal with the crowd. The only thing was, that we were lacking rest, and were greatly reduced in strength from hunger.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did you hear General Pearson give such an order as follows, to the officers: "Order your men to fire," before the firing took place?
A. I did not—nothing of the kind. I heard nothing in relation to firing, except the first fire.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You suppose that the troops fired in self-defense?
A. I supposed at that time, and I don't know that I have any reason to change my impression, that it was an actual shot—the first shot—and there was so much confusion at the time that it would have been very natural for others to suppose the order was given.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You stated that you saw pistol shots fired from the crowd?
A. It would be more correct to say that I heard them.
Q. Did you see stones and missiles thrown?
A. I did.
Q. Did you consider that an assault on your troops?
A. I did.
Q. Did you not then consider the order to fire justifiable?
A. I did.
Robert A. Ammon re-called:
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What day and what time of the day was it you got word that the Governor was coming to Pittsburgh?
A. I think it was on the 24th. I think it was early in the morning, but won't be positive about that. That is my recollection.
Q. Where did you learn he was at the time?
A. He had left Chicago.
Q. What time did you expect him?
A. I cannot state, as the rioters at that point were not aware when he had left Chicago. I telegraphed along to the different trains, and found he was coming on No. 4.
Q. Did you have any communication with him?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do when you learned he had come in?
A. I knew some men were lying along on the road, and more especially in Ohio, and I had heard the talk indulged in by the men. Some were in favor of stopping the train, and putting the Governor off. So I telegraphed to the men not to do anything to get the Governor down on us. I asked them to do that to please me, and they telegraphed back that they would.
Q. Did you telegraph them to more than one point?
A. No.
Q. To what point?
A. Latonia, Ohio. I then telegraphed to the Governor, extending a welcome back to the State, and guaranteeing him a safe passage. I won't be positive whether he got my message at Latonia or Salem.
Q. Did the Governor communicate with you?
A. No; but the conductor answered "O.K."
Q. Did you telegraph more than once to the Governor?
A. I believe not.
Q. Where were you when the train arrived?
A. At the outer depot, Allegheny city.
Q. Did you see him immediately on his arrival?
A. Yes; in a Pullman car.
Q. You went in and saw him?
A. Yes; I talked with him about five minutes, I suppose.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What was the nature of the conversation?
A. I went into the car, and as I went in the Governor got up and extended his hand, and I sat down alongside of him. He asked what do you men propose to do. I told him what we had done—that we will behave ourselves. He said that he was glad of it, that he wanted the peace of the State preserved, and that he was glad to see us disposed to save property. He wanted to know if he could do anything for me, and I said nothing, but I would be glad if he would come out on the rear platform, and say something to the boys. He did so, and made a little speech.
Q. How did you introduce him?
A. I just said "boys, this is Governor Hartranft." I pulled the bell cord, and we went up as far as the round-house, and had the train stopped there, and Mr. Perkins, the master mechanic, jumped aboard, and I spoke to him for a while.
By Mr. Means:
Q. How did the boys take the remarks of the Governor?
A. They gave a cheer. I went on to Federal street with him, and a delegation from Pittsburgh met him with carriages, and took him across the river.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you go across the river?
A. Yes.
Q. With the Governor?
A. No; in the crowd that went over. Before I left, I had his car switched over on the West Penn road.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What is your age?
A. Twenty-five years.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Were you at Torrens station on Thursday?
A. No.
Q. On Friday?
A. I came by there on Thursday night or Friday morning.
Q. Were you there when the sheriff came out?
A. I was not.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. At what time were you arrested?
A. I was arrested on the 30th of July, about three and a half o'clock in afternoon.
Q. Was there any preliminary affidavit made?
A. I was arrested on a bench warrant, issued by Judge Ewing.
Q. Who made the information?
A. Chauncey McCoy.
Q. Of what road?
A. Of the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne and Chicago.
Q. Have they ever taken any steps to bring on your trial?
A. No. I have asked for my trial repeatedly, but have never got it.
Q. Have you asked for your discharge?
A. No; because I don't want a discharge.
Q. Have you demanded a trial?
A. My attorney has asked for my trial. That is what I wish.
Q. Are you under bail now?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you go to Pittsburgh and renew your bail every time?
A. When my bail expires my bond is sent to New York, and I take it to a notary public and sign it, and he puts his seal to it, and I send it back to Pittsburgh.
Q. What is the amount of it?
A. Fifteen hundred dollars.
Q. What are the charges made against you?
A. Misdemeanor, under your own railroad act of March, 1877.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. I wish you would state once more just what is the object of the Trainmen's Union?
A. It was to resist this reduction of ten per cent., and to see if we couldn't bring the company to terms, and get them to look into our condition, so that anything of the kind should not occur again. We thought our labor skilled labor, and we were running great risks, and we thought we ought to earn more money, that instead of reducing it they ought to increase it. The object was to get up a union so strong that the railroad magnates would have to listen to us.
Q. Did you intend to strike?
A. We did, if they did not accede to our demands.
Q. What is a strike?
A. It is a body of men acting together for the purpose of quitting work in a body—to strike, and leave the work alone—as we understood it in the Trainmen's Union. We understood it that every man should leave his work at a given day and hour, and go to his home.
Q. Go to your homes?
A. Yes.
Q. You claimed no right then to interfere with those who desired to work?
A. No; but we claimed the right to use moral suasion. We didn't think we had any right to use any violence at all.
Q. Did you claim any right to interfere with railroad property?
A. No; it didn't belong to us.
Q. Prior to the organization of the Trainmen's Union, did you have any conversation with the officers of the railroad company in relation to this reduction of wages?
A. No; because we didn't think it would be advisable.
Q. Why not?
A. We thought it better to go ahead, and when we were in shape, if they refused we were ready to act.
Q. On the 27th day of June, you sent out forty men to notify all the lodges to get ready for a strike?
A. On Sunday, the 24th of June. Unless our demands were acceded to.
Q. Had you notified the railroad companies of your demand that the ten per cent. should be restored before that?
A. We drew up these resolutions—that is what Mr. Cassatt spoke about—and submitted them by a committee of five to the officials in Pittsburgh—to the local authorities there. They said they did not concern them, and they didn't want anything to do with them.
Q. When was that done?
A. I think on the 25th.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. You mean the railroad authorities?
A. Yes. We then asked for passes to come to Philadelphia to see Tom Scott. They wouldn't give us passes, and the boys didn't think they had enough money, with the ten per cent. reduction, to come to Philadelphia. They thought they could quell us by discharging some of the ringleaders, and they discharged a couple hundred of the boys, and this committee were all discharged, and they got around among the men, and said that they did not want them to have anything to do with those men, and they closed the telegraph wires against us, and everything of that kind. So, on the morning of the 27th day of June, we sent a request for them to meet us in the hall.
Q. To whom did you send it?
A. To the local authorities—Lang, Barrett, Scott, Pitcairn. They didn't come. We found we could not get hold of the telegraph wires to work them. On the night of the 26th, on the last train that night they sent out men on the train—thoroughly loyal men, as they called them—men that belonged to the Union, and we thought all right. They carried the news west and east that there would be no strike in Pittsburgh, and we knew nothing of that, but found it out afterwards. On Wednesday, June 27, one of our men jumped over the traces, and brought the word he was going out, and he told us what instructions his conductor had received in regard to the strike. Mr. Barrett, the superintendent of the Pan Handle road, had told him with the other trains he had sent word that night to the men that there would be no strike in Pittsburgh on the 27th. They told all the men to stay at work, that the thing would be arranged later; but it never was arranged. All were under the impression that the bubble would burst sooner or later. When the railroad officials say they had no notice of it, and did not know anything about the strike, why we tried everything in the world to let them know.
Q. In what way?
A. Why they discharged three or four hundred of us, and they certainly discharged us for cause. I received a letter myself from Mr. Thaw stating that I had lost the situation on account of being a member of the Trainmen's Union. I was discharged somewhere near Sunday the 24th of June.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Were you discharged before you organized Trainmen's Union lodges on the Baltimore and Ohio railroad in Virginia?
A. I traveled all over the Baltimore and Ohio, and I came back to Pittsburgh—part of the way over the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern and the Cleveland and Pittsburgh. Mr. Thomas had been watching for me, and he stopped me. I had not been paying railroad fares, so I came into Pittsburgh on a freight train.
Q. Were you still an employé?
A. Yes; at that time.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Who was running in your place?
A. An extra man. I got back and reported for duty. I went west and thought I would lay off at Alliance and go out to Chicago, but while at the breakfast table, notice came that the superintendent of the road wanted to see me at his office, and I went over there and had a talk with him, and the consequence was that I was discharged.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. And he gave you that letter you spoke of at that time?
A. Yes; or a few days afterwards, I don't remember which. I don't remember whether it was at that time or a few days afterwards.
Q. Did you ask for the letter?
A. No; but a pass to Chicago. It is customary, when they discharge a man, to give him a pass to where he wants to go.
Q. How did he come to give you that letter?
A. I don't know. I guess he thought he could use me.
Q. Did you ask him for it?
A. No. I guess he thought he was doing me a favor, and that I would return him the favor, if he gave me the letter.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Have you a family?
A. Yes; a wife and two children.
Q. How long have you been married?
A. Four years the 13th day of last September.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Why did you select Pittsburgh for the strike?
A. The 19th of July?
Q. Yes?
A. I don't know. The strike did not originate there. It was not our idea at all. Our idea was to have it all over on the 27th day of June—all over the country—to just stop the traffic all over the country. We thought the public would look at it as we did, unless they could get enough pumpkin rollers and snake hunters to run their roads.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Was that the day the strike took place at Martinsburg?
A. No; It took place there on the 16th of July.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. In making arrangements for this strike, did you talk about Pittsburgh being a suitable place, or a better place, for a strike, on account of the sympathy of the local authorities?
A. No.
By Mr. Means:
Q. How long were you railroading?
A. Between nine and eleven months—about nine months altogether.
Q. Didn't you think you were managing that western road pretty successfully, with the experience you had?
A. I didn't claim credit for it. If I had not had the men I had, I could not have done it.
Q. But were you not the man who run it? You laid out your plans the same as a military officer, and your men carried them out?
A. After Mr. Lang put the road in my possession, I tried to do the best I could for it—for the stockholders.
Q. Did you have the interests of the stockholders at heart? Did you take into consideration their interests more than the interests of the employés of the road—the men you represented?
A. I thought the stockholders were in about the same pew with us. I thought they were about swamped, and that we were.
Q. But I mean the question?
A. I was looking at the stockholders interests when I turned over all the money, and I wanted the boys to get back their ten per cent. I don't know that I made any distinction between them.
Q. But answer my question?
A. I think my sympathies did lean a little towards the boys, because I was one of them myself.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you act as general superintendent of the Fort Wayne and Chicago Railroad, while you were in charge of it?
A. I was supposed to be.
Q. Who acted as dispatcher?
A. A particular friend of mine. I saw that all trains went off, and came in.
Q. Had you a dispatcher acting in that capacity?
A. I had three telegraph operators, but I acted in the capacity of dispatcher myself. I gave the orders.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. While running that railroad as general manager, what would you have done if your men had struck?
A. I would have increased their wages.
Adjourned to Monday morning, at ten o'clock.