Philadelphia, Saturday, March 23, 1878.
Pursuant to adjournment, the committee re-assembled in the St. Cloud hotel, at two o'clock, P.M., this day, and continued the taking of testimony.
J. Ewing Mears, sworn:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. At No. 1429 Walnut street, in this city.
Q. What is your profession?
A. That of a physician.
Q. State whether you were a member of the National Guard, and if so, what position you held at the time of the riots?
A. I was the division surgeon of the First division, National Guard, under command of General Brinton.
Q. State whether you accompanied the command of General Brinton to Pittsburgh, and on what day?
A. I left the city of Philadelphia on the morning of Saturday, the 21st of July, in company with General Brinton, and arrived at Pittsburgh shortly after the middle of the day of Saturday.
Q. Go on and relate just what occurred after your arrival at Pittsburgh?
A. I don't know whether I can state it as you wish, without questions from yourself. After our arrival at Pittsburgh, the troops were disembarked, and orders were given with regard to their march up towards the round-house, and I was ordered by General Brinton to establish the division hospital in the mail-room connected with the railroad station. It was nearly opposite to the outer telegraph station, as the depot existed prior to its destruction. Before the command left the depot, I had assigned to the different brigades and regiments medical officers, taking from some regiments officers who were in access of the needs of the regiments; in other words, I distributed medical officers to the different commands, in accordance with the orders of General Brinton.
Q. Did you accompany the command at Twenty-eighth street?
A. I didn't.
Q. Where were you yourself?
A. I was at the depot. My orders from General Brinton were, to establish the division hospital at the depot, to which the wounded, if any happened to be wounded, could be sent.
Q. Did you send out surgeons with the command—as you distributed them, they went out?
A. Yes; there were two surgeons with the First regiment, one surgeon connected with the Second brigade, and one surgeon who was not acting as such among the other companies.
Q. Did you remain at the Union depot during Saturday night?
A. No; I remained there until ten o'clock, then I left the depot, the object being to join the command in the round-house, if possible. I had, in the meantime, met the surgeon of the Pennsylvania railroad, Doctor Murdock, who was also surgeon of the West Penn hospital, and he informed me that some of the wounded of the division were in the hospital, and offered his services to me to assist, and also on behalf of the staff, the use of the hospital. In view of this fact, and as I had also completed my duty at the depot by sending all of the wounded to Philadelphia prior to ten o'clock, I left the depot to start to join General Brinton in the round-house, but being unable to do so by reason of the mob, I went to the hospital, where I found some of the command.
Q. How many wounded were brought to the Union depot?
A. Fifteen.
Q. Of the militia?
A. Yes.
Q. They were sent to Philadelphia?
A. Yes; I obtained from Mr. Cassatt a special car for that purpose.
Q. How were the different men wounded?
A. The majority were wounded by small Smith & Wesson balls—balls that belong to the ordinary pocket revolver, and the gun shot wounds were all in the lower extremities.
Q. Were any wounded with stones or clubs?
A. They were wounded both with bullets, and also with clubs and stones, the majority being wounded with bullets, and as they stated, the wounds being given to them by persons under the cars, the result of that being that the wounds were in the lower extremities. Some had scalp wounds, received from clubs and stones, and some of the wounds in the lower extremities were also from clubs or stones. I should say that 1 moved the hospital from the mail-room, which I had taken, into the hotel, and took for that purpose the two large reading-rooms of the hotel. There I dressed the wounds of those sent to me, and sent them home when I finished the work.
Q. On Sunday, where were you?
A. On Sunday morning, at seven and a half o'clock, I left the West Penn hospital, and came into the depot. I was aware then that the command had left the round-house, that is, I was so informed, and I came into the hotel for the purpose of getting the medical stores, and also for the purpose of getting means of conveyance to the command. I had received a requisition the afternoon before, from one of the surgeons for lint and medical stores, and I had purchased some the night before in a drug store, at Pittsburgh.
Q. The details we don't care for—just simply the number of wounded, and if you heard the firing, and was with the command at the time?
A. I didn't hear the firing, and there were more wounded than I saw, because some didn't come to the depot.
Q. Do you know the number of the wounded altogether?
A. I have endeavored to ascertain that, but have failed thus far. I understood there were about twenty-eight.
Q. How many were killed?
A. As far as I can ascertain, three were killed, two instantly, and one died from the result of a gun-shot wound.
Q. Did you go with the command when it retreated out Penn avenue, and across the river?
A. I followed the command as closely as I could, and joined them after they had crossed the river.
Q. At what time?
A. Ten and a half o'clock.
Q. Were you dressed in uniform?
A. No.
Q. In citizen's clothes?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any trouble in reaching the command?
A. No; I was not interfered with, although I drove through the mob. I had with me a guide, a member of one of the cavalry companies of Pittsburgh, but he knew nothing of the country after passing the arsenal. I acted on my own responsibility. I had received an order from General Brinton the evening before, about joining the command, and was directed to join him in citizen's clothes.
Q. Did you stop at the arsenal?
A. I did.
Q. Did you see Major Buffington?
A. No.
Q. Or Lieutenant Lyon?
A. No.
Q. Did you see Lieutenant Ash?
A. I didn't see him.
Q. Did you know that Lieutenant Ash was there?
A. I didn't at that time.
Q. You reached your command in safety?
A. Yes; with the stores I had taken with me. I had a wagon and a horse, and I placed them in the wagon, and took them to the command.
Q. Are there any other facts that you wish to state? State whether you heard any orders given by General Latta to General Brinton?
A. I heard orders dictated to his secretary or to an officer in his room—I did.
Q. At what place?
A. At the Union Depot hotel.
Q. At what time?
A. About eight o'clock on Sunday morning.
Q. What were they?
A. As near as I can remember them—I was not the officer supposed to hear them, but they were given in an ordinary tone of voice—the order was congratulatory to General Brinton on his retreat from the round-house, as to his generalship in getting out of the round-house, and upon his march out Penn square to the arsenal. That is a portion of the order I distinctly remember. Further, when I asked General Latta where I should join the command, he told me to go to the arsenal.
Q. Did you have any conversation with General Latta at that time?
A. I asked him where the command was, and how to get there.
Q. Did you hear any other command given by General Latta to General Brinton?
A. I did not. I met Major Norris returning from the command. He had joined them, and I asked him where they were, and he said on the hill, and that they were going to the poor-house. He said to me nothing at all in regard to any other destination. This hill, I suppose, was a quarter of a mile after the bridge had been crossed—after crossing the river.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did you have any conversation with citizens of Pittsburgh, or come in contact with them?
A. I did, on Saturday night. I had taken, fortunately, a letter of introduction to a druggist in Pittsburgh, and I went to his drug store to make a purchase.
Q. Just state whether the citizens of Pittsburgh showed sympathy with the strikers?
A. Yes; most decidedly.
Q. Their sympathies were with the strikers?
A. Yes.
Q. And they were hostile to the troops?
A. Most decidedly. I had conversations with a number of medical men, and I was surprised to hear them, as medical men, express their sympathy with the action of the rioters.
Q. In plain words, they said that the strikers were doing right?
A. Yes; they approved their action.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. In what way did they manifest or express sympathy with the rioters?
A. In this way: they thought they were taking the proper action to redress the wrongs they had suffered.
Q. Did they say that the strikers were taking proper action?
A. They said that they thought they were doing right.
Q. What citizens said that?
A. I do not remember the names. I met one gentleman on the street. He was kind enough to conduct me back to the hotel, it being night, and I not knowing the way. He didn't know who I was or my business, and expressed himself very freely about the matter.
Q. Was he a business man?
A. I do not know that. He appeared to be a gentleman—he was dressed as such.
Q. Living in the city of Pittsburgh?
A. I suppose he did, sir.
Q. At the drug store, did you meet any citizens more than the druggist himself?
A. I didn't, because he advised me not to stay there long—that it would not be desirable for them to know who I was.
By Mr. Means:
Q. The druggist advised you not to stay there long—that he did not want the strikers to know you were in his place of business?
A. Or the citizens even to know it. It was rather out of regard for my safety, than possibly for himself. I went through the streets of Pittsburgh, when they were breaking into the stores and seizing arms, and the citizens looked on that indifferently, and no efforts were made to stop that.
Q. You went through the city of Pittsburgh, in disguise for your own safety, for fear of bodily harm you might receive.
A. I went into the streets of Pittsburgh in citizen's dress, in the first place, because I had been warned by General Latta, in regard to wearing my uniform. He advised me to remove it. He said it was not safe even for himself, or anybody connected with the military, to appear in uniform. That it would probably attract the mob to the hotel. I did it at his suggestion, and also, when I reflected on it, for my own safety.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where was that drug store?
A. I cannot tell you where, it was night.
Q. Do you remember the street?
A. I do not. I can go to it in daytime.
Q. Do you know whether it was the proprietor of the drug store with whom you had the conversation?
A. It was the clerk.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Did you get an introduction to the proprietor?
A. I did not.
Q. Who was the letter addressed to?
A. To Mr. Ottinger. I took it, thinking I should possibly want to purchase something.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You cannot give the street?
A. I didn't see it in the daytime at all.
Q. Can you give us the language—what he said?
A. I cannot, because I didn't stop very long at his store. I had sent him an order, and asked that it should be filled, and I went for the order. It was not completed, and it kept us a few minutes. Further, to show the hostility to the troops, when I was taking the wounded to the cars, the mob had got into the station, and were jeering us and making use of insulting remarks, such as to show that they were gratified that they were going home in that condition.
Thomas A. Scott, sworn:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. State what your official connection with the Pennsylvania Railroad Company is?
A. I am president of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company.
Q. You have held that position for a number of years?
A. I have been connected with the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, in various capacities, over twenty-six years.
Q. State, if prior to the strike that occurred in July last, you had any information that such a strike was to take place, or had any reason to apprehend a strike?
A. We had no information on the subject. I was on that evening up the river Delaware eighteen miles, visiting some friends—my daughters' family—and had gone to bed about ten o'clock, and heard nothing of the strike, or anything connected with it, until about eleven o'clock, when one of our officers from West Philadelphia, came up and advised me that there was trouble on the road, and wanted me to come to West Philadelphia. I did so, and arrived there a quarter before twelve, on Thursday night. At that time I had no intimation of any possible trouble with any of our people.
Q. Had you any knowledge of the existence of an organization called the Trainmen's Union?
A. Yes; I had heard that there was such an organization. There was some discontent about salaries and other matters connected with railroad management, and I had an interview with some engineers and firemen a few weeks before, and went over the whole subject—went over the whole ground with them. I suppose it was a committee of twenty or thirty altogether; and after hearing all that was to be said on both sides, we finally agreed that it was one of the inevitable things that could not be avoided, but would be remedied as soon as the condition of the country got into a more prosperous condition. After the committee retired from the interview, they came back again with a letter directed to me, expressing just what I said, in substance, to you; therefore I had no idea that there was discontent among our people likely to lead to anything like the results attained afterwards—like the difficulty that resulted in Pittsburgh.
Q. What complaints did this committee make when they waited on you?
A. They wanted to have the ten per cent. restored.
Q. What time was that?
A. It may have been three or four weeks before the difficulty occurred.
Q. It was after the 1st of June—after the ten per cent. reduction?
A. After the notice was given.
Q. Did they have any other complaint to make than about the ten per cent. reduction?
A. They discussed the question of privilege to ride over the road, and about being allowed for time when off duty, and several things of that character, all of which were discussed in the most friendly way with the committee, and I supposed that the committee went away perfectly satisfied. They so expressed themselves in writing to me—perfectly satisfied with the action of the company.
Q. Did they make any objections to the classification—what is called the classification?
A. They discussed that question with me, and they wanted to get some changes made in that. That had been agreed upon with the engineers and firemen some years before.
Q. They were satisfied on that point?
A. Entirely.
Q. Had you heard of any dissatisfaction on that point from any other source than from this committee?
A. I had heard nothing about the question at all.
Q. Had there been any complaints made prior to the one made by this committee on that subject?
A. A year or two before the question had been discussed. I have always been in the habit when our people come to state their grievances or supposed grievances to hear them, and discuss the matter, and do what we think right about it. I believe I never have declined to receive our men, and talk over matters connected with the company.
Q. After the order was issued to run double-headers, did you hear of any dissatisfaction?
A. Not until this Thursday night. That that was one cause of dissatisfaction.
Q. How long before that was the order issued to run double-headers?
A. I cannot give the time, but it was, I think, a few weeks—but how long, I don't know. It is a matter of detail management of the respective divisions that scarcely ever comes to me at all.
Q. Do you know what date it went into effect?
A. No; I do not.
Q. From whom did you get the first information that a strike existed there at Pittsburgh?
A. From Mr. Charles E. Pugh, one of our superintendents at West Philadelphia, who came up for me to Andalusia, or near there.
Q. What time did he get there?
A. At a quarter before eleven o'clock.
Q. On the 19th?
A. Yes; on Thursday night.
Q. When did you get the next information?
A. When I got to the depot at West Philadelphia.
Q. What was the character of that?
A. That there was an outbreak among the men on all the roads extending rapidly over all the lines in the country, and that there was not a sufficient police force in the city of Pittsburgh, to manage the matter, and that the sheriff had been called out or called upon by somebody to organize a posse comitatus, and I believe he did make some effort about it.
Q. That he was called upon by some officer of your road?
A. No; but by some authorities of the city of Pittsburgh; but that, I cannot say. I was not there. That they called upon him, but just when they called upon him, I do not know.
Q. That information was communicated to you?
A. Yes; by telegraph.
Q. Were you informed that the city authorities and the sheriff were not able to suppress the strike or the riot there?
A. Yes; I was informed of that fact—that the sheriff had called upon the Governor of the State for aid.
Q. What time did you get that information?
A. Three or four o'clock in the morning.
Q. From whom did you get the information?
A. From our officers at Pittsburgh. I think probably from Mr. Pitcairn.
Q. Had you any communication with the Governor?
A. Yes; I telegraphed to the Governor after he had been called upon and given the general results of the trouble—I telegraphed. I thought it was very important for him to be back in the city at the earliest moment he could come. That I thought the peace of the whole State was threatened.
Q. What time did you send that telegram?
A. I think that was sent the next day some time.
Q. On Friday?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see General Latta before he left for Pittsburgh?
A. Yes. He was there when I got to West Philadelphia. He was very much disturbed. He told me that the Governor, before leaving, had left power and authority with him to exercise his authority in case of disturbance. I asked what he proposed to do about the matter, and he said he proposed to go to Pittsburgh, and be governed by circumstances. If the Governor was called upon, that he would do what was necessary and proper to be done, under the circumstances, to preserve the order of the State. I think it was about a quarter before twelve o'clock on Thursday night when I saw him. I expressed to him the importance of preserving the highways of the country intact, as I understood it and believed it.
Q. When did you first learn that they had ordered the troops out—when the Adjutant General had ordered them out?
A. I understood about four o'clock Friday morning that the sheriff of Allegheny county had called for troops.
Q. And you understood then that General Latta would call them in pursuance of the call of the sheriff?
A. General Latta told me if called on, that he had abundance of troops in the city of Pittsburgh to take care of anything that might arise—under General Pearson.
Q. Did you have any communication with General Pearson?
A. No; if General Pearson asked me any question about transportation of troops, I told him what was proper under the circumstances; but I do not recollect of having any from him.
Q. Had you ever had any strikes on that road prior to this time?
A. We had a strike in 1860, when I was general superintendent of the road—a small affair that didn't last but a few days—principally among some of the engineers and some of the shop men. But I believe we had no strike or trouble with our people from that time up to the occurrences last summer.
Q. What steps were taken at that time to control it by the company?
A. Simply notice to the men engaged in it, that if the wages or arrangements of the company did not suit them, to peaceably go away.
Q. Was there any attempt, at that time, to molest or disturb the property of the company?
A. Nothing at all, except stoppage of the trains.
Q. There never has been any strike before where there was an attempt to destroy property?
A. No.
Q. Can you give us the amount, or an estimated amount, of the destruction of property at Pittsburgh?
A. Well, I think it is in the neighborhood—you mean what property?
Q. Belonging to the company?
A. About $2,000,000—various things we were interested in.
Q. Does that cover the merchandise?
A. Not at all.
Q. Simply the actual property of the company?
A. Yes; and it does not cover the consequent loss from the interruption of our business.
Q. But you include the destruction of cars, and engines, and shops, and tracks?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how many cars were destroyed?
A. I have not got the number at the end of my fingers, but it is in the annual report of the company. It is all stated there, sir. I think it is summed up in that report, that the probable loss, by reason of this trouble, was about $5,000,000 to our company and to the community at large in Pittsburgh and the community elsewhere owning property in transit.
Q. In consequence of the riot that existed there?
A. Yes.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. That includes the merchandise?
A. Yes; it is an estimated amount of what we thought about the right thing—as near as we could get at it.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did General Brinton telegraph you at Blairsville Junction that he, General Brinton, could clear the tracks with the force under his command?
A. I think General Brinton did telegraph me; but I do not recollect the details of it at all.
Q. At Blairsville Junction?
A. That he thought with troops properly located he could take care of it.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. In the interview you had with this committee, they stated their views on the reduction of ten per cent.?
A. That and several other questions connected with it.
Q. When did this ten per cent. reduction take place?
A. In June.
Q. Had there been any prior reduction?
A. Yes; in 1873, we made a reduction of ten per cent.—following the panic.
Q. Then in June you made another reduction?
A. Of ten per cent. It applied to everybody in the company—to men on the track, and in the shops, and on the engines, and in the depots, and every officer of the company.
By Mr. Yutzy:
Q. To all the employés?
A. To all getting above a dollar per day.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Was this last reduction made in pursuance of any arrangement with any other road?
A. Not at all.
Q. Was there not a meeting of representatives of the trunk lines in Chicago in May sometime, at which matters were talked over?
A. I don't know—I was not there.
Q. Was there a representative of your company present?
A. There may have been. I don't know nor whether they had up the question of compensation to the men. Our action on the subject was based on the general results of the business of the company, and the necessity of some positive thing being done in aid of the company and in aid of the men as well.
Q. The action of your company, in this reduction, was solely by yourselves, without any understanding?
A. With the other trunk lines?
Q. Yes.
A. None whatever. I think they didn't make any reduction until July.
Q. Didn't the New York Central make a reduction about that time?
A. I think on the 1st of July.
Q. And the Baltimore and Ohio about that time?
A. Somewhere along there. I don't know the dates exactly.
Q. This reduction was arrived at by yourselves without any understanding with other roads?
A. Yes; we thought it proper to be done. I think, and believe now, that we were paying men then twenty per cent. above the average price paid for an equivalent amount of labor anywhere else.
Q. Do you remember the prices paid the trainmen?
A. I don't recollect, but I can get you the data if you want them. I don't recollect the details. Our wages differ a little on different divisions—they are not entirely uniform. There are some places where the living is more expensive, and there the compensation is higher. They are paid according to locality. There are some places where the cost of living is a great deal less than in others, and a difference is made in wages. It is always been so both on the track and roadway and the trainmen also.
Q. Do you know whether arrangements were made at Chicago to pool the earnings of the three trunk lines?
A. An attempt was made.
Q. But never carried out?
A. No.
Q. You don't know whether this question of wages was discussed at that meeting?
A. I don't know.
Q. You had no report made to you by the representative of your road who was there?
A. No.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. To pool the entire earnings of the road?
A. No; the competitive business to avoid disagreements, and to put all the shippers on a perfect equality, and get a fair living compensation for doing the work to be done. Through excessive competition, very often business was done resulting in a loss to the companies. They did the work for a great deal less than cost, and in doing, that with certain kinds of traffic, they did violence and injustice to other people at other points. That was one of the troubles with the city of Pittsburgh—perhaps their chief trouble.
Q. The purpose of it was to secure uniformity of freights?
A. And compensation to everybody.
Q. To shippers, too?
A. To shippers. In the early part of last year, the through business of the company was done below actual cost to every road that did it. During the first six months of last year, not a farthing was made on through competitive freight by any line.
Q. Was that agreed upon at that meeting in Chicago?
A. They made an effort, but didn't succeed in having it carried out practically.
Q. The trouble was in one line cutting down freights?
A. That is the allegation always—that somebody is cheating somebody else.
Q. It was attempted to carry it into effect?
A. Yes.
Q. For how long a time did you work at it?
A. Three or four months, probably, but finally it all broke up. On west-bound traffic we have an arrangement for a division of the business under low established rates, by which everybody is placed on a perfect equality. New York, a certain price, Philadelphia so much below that, and Baltimore, so much below that. Under that arrangement, the lines have been doing very much better than when in open warfare. I believe now that every west-bound shipper is placed on an entire equality.
Q. You have referred to Pittsburgh. Had there been complaints by shippers in Pittsburgh about discrimination?
A. Always.
Q. What were the complaints?
A. That through goods were carried at a less rate per ton per mile than their goods, and that we ought to be able to control that. I think I have tried diligently for the last five years of my life to get an arrangement or an agreement by which all these questions could be adjusted, and these discriminations of every character wiped out, and I went even to this trouble: I met a committee of merchants and manufacturers of the city of Pittsburgh, and went over the whole case with them. I said to them: gentlemen, there are times when it cannot be controlled. If we succeed in making this west-bound arrangement we will put all your interests here, so far as relates to the western markets, on a fair equality with everything that comes into competition with you from the east. I said so far as we are concerned, we have a strong desire to do just what you want done, and to that end we are working, and we will do anything we can do to bring it about; and if it should happen in the future that we must go through other and more violent wars than we have now passed, we will still agree that your trade in competition with like trade—that your manufacturing interests here shall be protected by at least ten per cent. less than the aggregate rates from points east of you. They expressed themselves very well satisfied with that arrangement.
Q. Can you give us any of the methods you have tried for the purpose of preventing those complaints by the people of Pittsburgh?
A. The general endeavor is to agree upon rates, and to adhere to them absolutely. We never charge in any case exceeding the rate charged from a distant point. In this arrangement, I referred to, for the city of Pittsburgh, I told them, in any possible state of things, we would make their rates ten per cent. less than any rate prevailing from any point east of them—Philadelphia, New York, or Baltimore. It sometimes happened that competition ruled so strong that we carried things from New York to Chicago lower than we did from Pittsburgh, and when engaged in one of these little troubles, the rates are frequently changed a dozen times in a day. Our aim always has been to put all the shippers on our road and all the intermediate shippers on rates as low as competition might force at the extremes. We think it is right, and endeavor to do it. There have been isolated cases when it is not done, as it may happen that a shipper from New York to-day will have a low rate on some specific kind of goods, while the shipper from Pittsburgh would be paying the rate that prevailed the day before. But whenever such cases came to our notice we gave a drawback. Sometimes they never came to our notice, but have been nursed up, and made a cause of trouble and complaint. Whenever we found the difference too great we always paid them back.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. By rebates?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. There never has been a time when the price charged from Pittsburgh was greater than from any point beyond?
A. It never was the policy of the company that it should be so, but it has frequently happened in isolated cases that such was the case.
Q. Has that been the case for any length of time?
A. Never—not for any length of time.
Q. For a month at a time?
A. Oh, no—a day or two.
Q. How did freights compare in July last with what they had been for three months preceding that time?
A. They had been extremely low the whole of the year up to that time, and were then extremely low on east-bound business. On west-bound business on the 1st of July that arrangement was made to have a division of the business.
Q. How were freights after the strike was over?
A. On west-bound business, the arrangement that went into operation then is in operation now. On east-bound, every two or three weeks they have the same chronic trouble. After making an agreement, they violate it and break down, but as a general thing, the rates are better now than they were a year ago.
Q. How did rates compare the fore part of last season with the year before, at the same time?
A. Very much lower. Two reasons brought it about. First a short crop in the fall of 1876, when there was very little freight to come east—nothing at all equal to the facilities of the various companies, the result being a scramble and competition to get it, and prices ruled away below the cost of doing the work.
Q. How did the amount of freight or tonnage during the months of May and June, 1877, compare with the months of May and June, 1876?
A. It was not so heavy, but after the harvest of last year—and it was a heavy crop all over the west—and in consequence of the European war, which cause a demand, the roads had better tonnage.
Q. Was there any difference in the local freights?
A. They were greater in quantity all along our line. The crops were better.
Q. How did the local rates compare with the previous year?
A. They were on the same general basis as the previous year. I don't think there was any change, unless we got into those violent competitions, when we would reduce our local as well as through rates.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you ship goods or freight cheaper from New York to San Francisco than from Pittsburgh to San Francisco, such as steel or iron?
A. I think that has occurred a number of times. The rates are made by the Union and Central Pacific roads. At New York they come into competition with the Pacific mail and sailing vessels around Cape Horn, and on account of that competition, the rates are made low.
Q. Less from New York to San Francisco than from Pittsburgh?
A. Yes.
Q. Has it been the custom on your road to get a larger rate from New York than from Pittsburgh?
A. Yes; on our road we get a larger rate from New York than from Pittsburgh.
Q. Do you mean per ton per mile?
A. No. I mean the aggregate rate. The Pacific road fixes its own prices from Chicago west-bound.
Q. Can you not ship freight at a less rate per ton per mile for a long distance than for a short?
A. I think we can. It saves the intermediate handling.
Q. Do you know of any instance where iron or steel has been shipped from Pittsburgh to New York and from there to San Francisco by rail?
A. No.
Q. Because the rates would be cheaper?
A. No. I have understood of one or two cases where drugs were sent from Pittsburgh to New York, and these came into competition with drugs shipped by ocean, and were then shipped on back.
Q. Did the cheap rates at New York arise from competition with water transportation?
A. Yes; at sea. That only applies to heavy articles, about which there is no question of time or of insurance. It may apply to heavy drugs; but it does not apply to dry goods or groceries, or things like that.
Q. Are your local freight rates governed by your through rates in any way?
A. To the extent that whenever through rates come down below the local charges we reduce the local charges.
Q. Proportionately?
A. No; but we do not exceed on our local business the amount charged on other roads.
Q. Do you reduce the rates on local traffic when you reduce them on other traffic in equal proportion?
A. No. Say the rate from Chicago to New York is fifty cents, and the rate from Philadelphia or Harrisburg is fifty cents, and the rate from New York should be reduced to forty or thirty, we reduce the other rate.
Q. To the same per centage?
A. The same gross rate.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was there any strike in the city of Philadelphia among your employés?
A. There was some striking among the men on our trains.
Q. When did that first break out?
A. Probably a day or two after the trouble at Pittsburgh. I think the trouble occurred here on Friday night or Saturday.
Q. Among what class of your employés.
A. The trainmen entirely.
Q. Did it include the engineers?
A. No.
Q. The brakemen, firemen, and conductors?
A. Yes; the trainmen—on freight trains.
Q. Did they interfere with your property in any way here?
A. They declined to run the trains out, and said their lives were in danger, and the result was the trains didn't go for several days. It didn't apply to the Northern Central road or the New York division.
Q. Did they attempt to interfere with the property of the road?
A. Destroy it?
Q. Yes?
A. Not at all. I think they felt themselves bound by some organization that seemed to have control of them, not to do anything or allow others to take their places, and, therefore, it was simply a stand off policy—the trains didn't go. But they attempted no destruction of property at all.
Q. Did it become necessary for you to call on the civil authorities here?
A. Yes. There was a great deal of threatening all over town in regard to the possibility of serious trouble, and we had some trouble at the yards in West Philadelphia. Engines were taken from trains.
Q. What steps did you take for protection here?
A. I sent word down to the mayor's office about this difficulty on the lines of the road, and that we feared that some effort might be made to destroy our property, and that, therefore, we wanted the protection due to every interest in our State and city—nothing more. He organized a police force. A great many of the people of the city were alarmed about the situation of affairs, and, I believe, they gave the mayor authority to take on additional policemen, which he kept employed for some days, until the threatened trouble was all over. I think his whole action in the management of the police force under him was very efficient and thorough.
Q. Did he respond promptly to that call?
A. Yes; and succeeded in maintaining order entirely.
Q. There was no trouble in maintaining peace and order?
A. No; excepting the exercise of a great deal of vigilance and care with a strong force.
Q. Was it necessary for the policemen to make any attack on the crowd?
A. I think nothing serious. They had several little disturbances. The crowd was armed and threatened trouble and all that.
Q. Did the crowd assemble in very large numbers?
A. I have been told from two to five thousand people; but they persuaded them to disperse. I do not think there was any trouble at any time. The mayor's policy was to prevent crowds from assembling, to prevent disturbance, and in the conduct of the whole matter I think he showed great wisdom and great efficiency.
Q. What day did you start your trains here?
A. From here west?
Q. Yes?
A. I think on the 27th or the 28th.
Q. Did you meet with any trouble in getting men to start them?
A. No.
Q. Was there any resistance made by the crowd?
A. Not here.
Q. Was it necessary to have any guard to protect the first trains that started?
A. Of military?
Q. Or policemen?
A. No. There were men here about the yards and depots to see that the peace was preserved, but they made no arrests, I believe, in connection with people in leaving trains. They did make arrests of some people for destroying some oil cars.
Q. On the Pennsylvania railroad?
A. On the junction road.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you, as president of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, at any time, make any requisition on the State authorities for troops to protect your property?
A. Not at all. The State authorities were called out, as I understood, on a requisition from the county of Allegheny.
Q. By the sheriff?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you any knowledge of any officer of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company calling on the Governor for troops?
A. None whatever. They, no doubt, suggested to the Governor of the State that it was his duty to put the force in such a position as to preserve peace and order.
Q. Did you understand that you, as president of a railroad company or as a citizen, have the right to call on the Governor for troops, and that the Governor has a right to respond to that?
A. No.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. In the case of an outbreak, such as existed there, to whom would you apply for help?
A. To the civil authorities of the place, and they, in their turn, are obliged, as I understood the law, to make the requisition. I do not understand that I, as president of a company, have the right to make a requisition on the Governor, but I certainly have the right to notify him. I have no right to make a requisition.
Q. You have the right to notify him under the act of 1864?
A. I have no reference to any particular act. I never understood that a railroad company or a mining interest or anything else had a right to make a requisition. I always thought they had the right to state their case, and ask that some action should be taken, letting the mayor or sheriff, as the case may be, make his own requisition.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. It has been charged by some that the troops were ordered by the Pennsylvania Railroad Company in their movements?
A. I think if you will ask the military officers—General Brinton—he will tell you that he moved his troops according to his superior officer's directions, and not at the direction of any railroad man. I guess he was careful to do that. I certainly never asked them to move troops to any particular place or to do any particular thing.
Q. But you conferred with the officers or advised them?
A. No; I conferred with the Governor of the State, and he gave his orders through his officers. I didn't give them any orders. I did give them every facility they asked for, just as we did with the Government of the United States when they got into the rebellion, when we stopped all our business for a time, and gave our road completely to carry men and equipments, and whatever they might require for the field or elsewhere. We gave them entire control of our road.
Q. Do you say you never made any requisition on the State authorities for protection?
A. We stated our case to them, and said we are in great danger, and the highways of the State are in great danger, and we want that protection which it is our right to have.
Q. As every other citizen of the State, you would have the right to demand protection?
A. I think we all pay for peace and order to be preserved in the State, and it ought to be.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. Then you never did dictate to the Governor, or to any one in his absence, what to do with the military?
A. Not a bit. I was especially careful not to do anything of that kind.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. State if you have been able to ascertain or to gather facts sufficient to form a judgment as to what produced the strike?
A. I think the trouble originated through the discontent of men all over the country—not confined to railroads. Every other branch in some how was directly or indirectly connected with the outbreak, looking for compensation of an increased character, without regard to whether parties were able to pay it or not, and altogether, I think that whole movement was made up—either agreed upon or concerted and agreed upon under their own mode of organization. I think they took this abatement of ten per cent. as one pretext for making the outbreak.
Q. What facts have you that lead you to believe it was a concerted movement or agreed upon?
A. Simply their action, and the results spread before us everywhere.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Is the pay of railroad employés less, as a general thing, than that of any other ordinary avocation?
A. No; I think it is greater; and I think it ought to be a little greater, because the men are subject to risks in railroading, that they are not subject to in ordinary work; therefore, I think it is the duty of railroad companies to pay a little more for that service than is paid for an equal amount of labor in the ordinary channels of life. I think we pay twenty per cent. more to-day than men receive in the various other channels of business.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Are they subject to greater expense than others?
A. Yes; by reason of going from their homes, their extra cost of living is something.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. And in one sense you call it skilled labor, in addition to the risks they run?
A. Yes; we want men understanding their duties to run our trains and take care of the property and of the people in their charge. We want that in all the men, and, I think, as a general thing, we have as good a set of men as was ever organized.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was there any complaint among the men about their not being able to work full time?
A. Yes; when the depression of business came so strong, we undertook to retain more men in our service than were needed to do the work, and we did that very often at the request of men—of the older men, in order that younger men might have an opportunity to get some work and get a living out of the general result. Instead of men getting ten hours work they would probably get an average of six, seven, or eight hours, and in that way the work was distributed among a greater number of people.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You did that instead of discharging them?
A. Yes; the result of that was that it made the average low, and was a cause of complaint, and when this thing was all over, we had simply to compromise and in giving more hours of work, consequently, to do with fewer men.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Looking at the matter from the experience you have, was that plan of retaining more men than you could give full work to a good one?
A. No; it caused dissatisfaction to the men, and caused them to complain, I think unreasonably and unjustly against the company, because the company, so far as it was concerned, was perfectly willing to pay that number of dollars for the service done, but it was distributed among so many that instead of their getting fifty dollars, say, per month, they would get thirty or forty, perhaps. Very many of the oldest men had their sympathies aroused in favor of men, and wanted them retained even if they could not get full time, and asked us to do that thing in many instances; but it resulted just in that discontent I have mentioned. Now we have changed our policy, and endeavor to give our men nearly as full time as we can, and in that give our oldest men and thoroughly loyal men, of course, the preference.
Q. From your experience and knowledge of the number of railroad men in the country, is there a surplus?
A. There is to-day.
Q. There are men out of employment?
A. Yes; the depression in the iron business, and coal business, and lumber business, and everything else, makes less traffic, and a greatly decreased number of trains. This decrease has made a corresponding decrease in the demand for men. We hope one day that it will change, and we can take on all our people and pay them better wages than now; but we cannot do it until the country becomes more prosperous than now.
Q. Did this number of men out of employment have a tendency to produce restlessness among them, and bring on the trouble?
A. There is no question about that. It was the want of employment that made the labor of the country dissatisfied. I think if we could set men to work making a living for themselves and their families, I think there would be no trouble about it. I think it is the best law that can be made.
Q. It was more that, in your judgment, that caused the trouble than low wages?
A. I think so.
George R. Sowden, sworn:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. I live in west Philadelphia, No. 1421 Locust street.
Q. What is your business?
A. I am a practicing lawyer.
Q. Go on and state what knowledge you have of the occurrences at Pittsburgh last July, and the movements of the militia?
A. During last summer I was colonel of the Third regiment of infantry, connected with the First brigade of the First division. I was in the brigade commanded by General Mathews. On the evening of Friday, July 20, I got a dispatch from him, asking me to assemble my regiment, and report for duty as soon as possible at the West Philadelphia depot. I got the dispatch at Bryn Mawr. I got to Philadelphia at nine o'clock, and sent out dispatches to my field officers and staff officers and company commanders, and I assembled part of my regiment there, and at two o'clock of Saturday, July 21, I went on the train to Pittsburgh. We reached there about two o'clock on Saturday. There the troops were ordered out of the train, and we moved up the railroad track. I was on the left of Colonel Benson, and in my rear was the Weccacoe Legion and the Keystone Battery. They were dragging the Gatling guns at that time without horses, but it was found impossible to drag the guns over the railroad ties, and men were detailed from the three regiments to assist in hauling the guns. I sent a detail for that purpose. After we got in to the neighborhood of Twenty-eighth street—I do not know in the meantime what had become of the Second brigade—I was facing west on the railroad track seventy-five yards below the crossing on Twenty-eighth street, and the rear of my command was towards the hill.
Q. Facing toward the hill?
A. No; I was facing toward the Allegheny river, forming a straight line. Some little time after I was there, the crowd of rioters formed in front of us, and also on my left flank, and, as I was in a straight line, I withdrew my left flank, so as to connect and form an angle with the balance of the brigade, to keep the rioters from coming in behind us. General Mathews approved of the partial change of front. At that time, there was an enormous crowd of people on the hill back of us, and in front of us, and there was a good deal of noise and confusion. After we had been there some little time, there was some firing of pistol shots; and stones, and brickbats, and clubs, and every thing of that sort were fired at us, and, presently firing began among the troops on my right, and also on the other side. The brigade at one time formed three sides of a hollow square. The firing by the people began, as I saw, from the hill. That was the first I saw. That was, the firing at the troops. After some little firing on their part, the troops began the return fire. My men I didn't permit to fire until on Saturday afternoon, as I had received no orders to fire, and didn't see the immediate occasion for firing. I restrained my men from firing. Then, after this general firing on the right, a great many people on the hill were killed, and some of the rioters in front on twenty-eighth street were also killed. In the mean time, we were all surrounded, where I was, by the rioters.
Q. Did you hear any command given to fire?
A. No; I did not. There was no command to fire. I got no command to fire.
Q. Were there any shots fired by the mob before there was any firing by the militia?
A. Yes; a great many.
Q. Pistol shots?
A. Mostly pistol shots, and, I think, there were two or three gun shots from the side hill fired at us.
Q. What other demonstrations were made by the crowd, before the firing took place on the soldiers?
A. I was some distance from what you call the right of the brigade, on Twenty-eighth street. I had my hands pretty full where I was, and didn't pay much attention to what was going on there. In front of me some rioters showed pistols, and wanted to go through my lines. I refused to let them. They threatened what they would do with me and my men, and also tried to seduce the men from the lines. They were saying we are all workingmen, and you won't fire on workingmen. In this way they endeavored to break up the morals and discipline of the command. I drove them away without using violence, so far as I could, and kept them at a distance of from three or four yards.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What was the general conduct of the whole command?
A. Do you mean of the brigade?
Q. Your men?
A. It was very good. For raw troops, it was excellent. I have seen troops in the field that didn't behave nearly as well as the men in my command. Most of them are boys, and, like young colts, were a little skittish at the first fire; but finding they didn't get killed, they stood to their work very handsomely.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Had any of your command ever seen actual service during the late war?
A. Yes; I have seen service, and some of my officers and some of the men.
Q. What proportion of them?
A. I should say ten per cent. on an average. Perhaps more.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What was the general conduct of the division as a whole?
A. I cannot speak of that because I didn't see the Second brigade, and didn't know where it was; but the general conduct of the troops was excellent.
Q. From the commencement of the trouble?
A. Yes; in my judgment there was as good discipline, and order, and soldierly behavior on the part of the officers and men, as there would be in an army in the field, and much better than I have seen at times, in case of disaster. I was in the field about two years, and served under Generals McClellan, and Burnside, and Hooper, and Mead. I joined the army at Antietam, and served in the Pennsylvania Reserves at Fredericksburg, with the Third division, under General Reynolds, and was at Chancellorsville and Gettysburg.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. In what capacity did you serve in the army?
A. First as orderly sergeant, and I was then made first lieutenant and captain. I was on General Doubleday's staff part of the time. After this general firing had taken place on Saturday afternoon, we were moved down into the round-house. Some reason was given that we were sent to guard the property. We went into the round-house about dusk, and a little later—between seven and eight o'clock—I was following Colonel Benson, and was given that part of the house to guard opposite Liberty street, about seventy-eight feet long, and was instructed to put out sentries along the line and inside the house to guard the windows, with orders to keep the mob outside back from the windows, and observe their operations, and not to fire without orders. There was great confusion and tumult outside, and a great deal of yelling and screaming, and some firing, and we could scarcely show ourselves at the windows until the mob outside began to throw bricks and direct pistol shots at us, but my men, owing to the orders I had given, didn't fire at all. Occasionally I went to see if the sentinels were on duty and obeying orders. About one o'clock I was lying on a board, when I heard a sentinel call for the sergeant of the guard on this line of Twenty-eighth street, and I immediately went over, taking a posse with me, to learn the cause of the alarm, when I found a large crowd around a field piece, apparently loading it, and preparing to fire. I immediately sent my adjutant to notify General Mathews—to notify him of the fact, and request his attendance. While my adjutant was going for General Mathews, he met General Brinton, and brought him, and General Mathews turned up at the same time. We held a council. The piece was ready to be discharged, and was pointed toward where I was told the Second brigade was. Then it was determined to disperse the mob. I cannot say now whether any intimation was given to them at the time to leave or we should fire—I am not positive—but I think there was.
Q. Warning you mean?
A. Yes. I am not positive; but they had a light, and were about ready to fire, when, by General Brinton's or Mathew's orders, I drew some men up inside of the windows, and we opened fire on them. They immediately dispersed, a number being killed and wounded. After an interval they came up again, and we let them come up; but as soon as they came up to the piece, and attempted to fire, we ordered them back, and when they didn't go back, we opened fire. After that time notice was always given. I suggested the propriety of going out for the piece and bringing it in, and volunteered to go with my men and bring it in and spike it; but our commanders thought it was not worth while, as we had it covered. After the crowd had withdrawn from the piece, they got back of board-piles and small houses, and kept firing at us all night. One man fired an explosive bullet. Every now and then it would come in over the heads of the men and strike something large—such as the stack of a locomotive—and immediately explode. A number of them had muskets and rifles. In the meantime some cars out on the right of us had been fired, and a number of these burning cars were sent down towards the buildings where we were, and lodged against some building not filled with troops, and in a little while the flames rushed through the window of the first floor and struck the ceiling of the second floor, and in the course of half an hour or so everything was on fire, and about six o'clock everything was on fire all around us, and cinders were falling as long as my hand—large cinders from this building—and the roof of this outside building was entirely on fire, and it had communicated to the roof of the round-house, so that we were enveloped with a great deal of smoke, and in danger of being enveloped entirely in flames.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How far was this cannon stationed from the position you held?
A. About as far as from here across the street—about eighty feet.
Q. In what direction?
A. It was facing about the direction of the grain elevator—in that direction.
Q. Down the track?
A. Not exactly, but sort of angularly, so as to strike the machine shops. It was on Liberty street.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Below you then?
A. Yes; but right opposite to us. After we were almost smothered in smoke, and these heavy cinders were falling, we fell in for the purpose of marching out—where, of course, I had no means of knowing—it was not proper for me to inquire. In the meantime we took the ammunition out of two or three guns there and dampened them with water so that it could not be used against us. We turned out the first street and went towards the Allegheny river and then we struck for Penn street, I think, and as soon as we struck that street and got opposite those men, who were firing all night, they turned about face and fired into our flanks. The firing began as soon as we got on Penn street, and they kept firing into our flanks all the time until we got to the arsenal.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where did the firing come from?
A. From door-ways, and alley-ways, and second story windows, and doors of houses, and telegraph poles, and from every place where a man could get behind—where he could fire without being in any danger. I saw men standing along the side-walks with large navy revolvers in their coat tails waiting for us to get past a sufficient distance to fire into us.
Q. For what distance was the firing kept up?
A. I can only give an estimate. I should say a mile.
Q. Firing out of houses—was there much of that?
A. A great deal of that? I saw repeated cases where a man's arm would be out of a window firing at us; and generally when we would pass a corner there would be a crowd there apparently peaceable, but when we got past they would immediately fire into us.
Q. How many men were wounded in going out?
A. I don't know. I do not remember the number of men wounded.
Q. Was there any jeering of citizens from the houses as you passed along?
A. A great deal.
Q. And participated in by women?
A. I think I heard several women abusing us and a number of men stating, that we had killed their brothers and sons and so on, and that they would kill us.
Q. When you arrived at the arsenal, did you go into the grounds?
A. No.
Q. You do not know what took place?
A. Not of my own knowledge.
Q. What was the conduct of the troops there under General Brinton, taking them all, during Saturday in the round-house?
A. In my judgment, it was excellent, and, as we marched out of the round-house in the morning, I think the men all kept perfect order. The men were dressed in regular files, and no officer, that I saw, was not in his proper place. There was no confusion among the troops until as we got near the arsenal, when there was a movement made, coming from the right, to close up on a double quick, and that brought the Second brigade in the rear up on us, and that sort of huddled up the First brigade, and made some confusion there.