Q. When was this committee organized?
A. The first meeting was held on Sunday evening. I was absent, but I was informed the following morning that they had held a meeting, and we were under arms that day.
Q. Monday?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were there any other such vigilance committees organized?
A. Yes. One was formed on my right and another on my left, in the East End, and I am told there were others in the city.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You have stated that you were advised to go away for safety?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it a railroad employé or was it railroad employés, or a citizen or citizens that advised you and Mr. Pitcairn to leave the city?
A. I do not know who advised Mr. Pitcairn. The advice was given to me by myself. I was not with Mr. Pitcairn at the time. To my recollection, I think the notice was given to me by Mr. Elder, the night depot master.
Q. A railroad employé?
A. Yes. Various of my friends and citizens generally, advised me to leave afterwards.
Q. They considered your life in danger, if you remained?
A. Yes. I had notice sent to my house that I had better leave the city. They said they were going to burn the house.
Q. Was the intimation that Mr. Pitcairn's life was in danger along with the rest?
A. Yes; Mr. Pitcairn's, Mr. Watt's, Mr. Cassatt's, and mine.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was any attempt made to interfere with your property or to burn your house?
A. Nothing.
Q. The mob did not go there?
A. It was too far away.
By Mr. Means:
Q. It was said that they would very likely take your life if you did not go away?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Who were the men that interfered with Gerry. Do you know them?
A. I think I do; but I am not prepared to say. One of the men, I think, is still in the criminal court.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You stated that General Pearson gave orders to keep the hill clear, and to let no one on the tracks. At that time was any one besides the military on the hill side?
A. Nobody except the military—not more than half a dozen. Probably the people living up there were passing up and down; but there was no crowd congregated there at all. I am unable to say to whom the order was given. He was on one side of the tank, and I was on the other. I presume it was some officer in charge; but who it was I cannot say.
Q. The object of the order was to keep the mob of people from congregating on the hill side?
A. Yes; and on the tracks.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What was the name of the person to whom the order was given to move the ammunition.
A. That was Captain Breck—E. Y. Breck, commander of the Pittsburgh battery.
Q. Can you give the reason why he did not move it?
A. I cannot. I was not present long enough to ascertain.
Q. Could it have been moved at that time without much danger?
A. I think it could. He may have had reasons or difficulties that I know nothing about. He was on the ground all the time, and had a better opportunity of judging than I had.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What troops were on the hill when General Pearson gave the orders to keep the hillside clear?
A. I am not positive about that, but I think the Fourteenth regiment was on the hill, and the Nineteenth regiment on the track, and the battery was on the flat just above the track.
Joseph McCabe sworn sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. In the Twentieth ward.
Q. State whether you are connected with the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, and if so, in what capacity?
A. I am the general yard dispatcher at Pittsburgh.
Q. As such, what are your duties?
A. I make up trains and see that they go out properly.
Q. Were you on duty on the 19th of July last?
A. Yes.
Q. You may go on and give a statement of what occurred, beginning with Thursday morning?
A. On the morning of the 19th of July I was in the western part of the yard. I saw that the train did not move at the proper time, and went to the middle of the yard, at Twenty-sixth street, to ascertain why it did not go. The yard dispatcher there and assistant train master told me that some of the men had refused to go out. I and Mr. Hunter, then yard dispatcher, went to the men and asked them if they would go out, and all that we would go to, said they would not go out on the double-headers.
Q. About how many men did you see?
A. All that we could find. We went into the caboose cars.
Q. All refused to go out on the double-headers?
A. Yes; except the first train. The conductor was willing to go out, but not the crew.
Q. What classes of men refused—conductors and brakemen?
A. Yes; they refused to go, and I went then to get up the yard crews to put on, and brakemen to go in the place of conductors. I got an engine out. We were just going to make a coupling. I had got two crews and brought them up, and I had told a brakeman named W. S. Gerry to couple the engine. He made an effort to do so, and while doing so, they threw at him with pins and links and stones. One of the pins struck him on the side, and he had to run for his life to the Philadelphia fast passenger train, which was standing on the track where he was, and he jumped on it. Had it not been for that they would have been very apt to have caught him.
Q. Who threw those missiles?
A. I cannot say who threw them, but the whole crowd apparently made a rush.
Q. How large was the crowd?
A. Not over twenty.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Were they train men?
A. Yes.
Q. What time was that?
A. It must have been between nine and ten o'clock.
Q. Thursday?
A. Yes.
Q. The crowd was composed of about twenty men?
A. Yes.
Q. Who were those men?
A. Some of them I don't know the names of. Some are up in court, and they are now trying them. One of them is "over the river."
Q. Name as many as you can?
A. One was Andrew Hice; another Alonzo Milliner, and several more of them. I can't just remember their names now.
Q. Were they all railroad employés?
A. As far as I saw, they were at that time.
Q. Men in actual employment at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Were there any men there at that time who had previously been discharged?
A. None that I know of.
Q. What was the next incident that occurred that came under your observation?
A. The next thing, I went to Twenty-eighth street with Mr. Watt, and tried to get engine seven hundred and eighty-five out—Conductor S. K. Moore.
Q. What time was that?
A. Pretty close to twelve o'clock. I told him to bring his engine out, and he told me that they would not allow him to turn the switch.
Q. Who do you mean by "they?"
A. He said all of them—the crowd. They would not let him turn the switch. Mr. Watt said he would turn it. While he was stooping to turn it, one of them struck him. They arrested him, and after they arrested him I turned the switch and brought the engine out on the track and down the yard, and coupled her to sixteen cars, and sent her to Wilkinsburg with them.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was that the same crowd that had assembled about ten o'clock?
A. Yes; it was Twenty-sixth street, and they went to Twenty-eighth street. The second engine was at Twenty-eighth street. It was the same crowd.
Q. Had it increased in numbers?
A. Yes; in the meantime.
Q. Who were the men that joined them? Were they railroad employés too?
A. I cannot say. Afterwards I went to the west end of the yard with another engine. I had the dispatcher at the west end to get sixteen cars on another track, and I went there with another engine at about the time the Atlantic express should leave the depot. We got that train out, and that was the last.
Q. What time did that train go out?
A. It left Seventeenth street about one-five. I got to Twenty-eighth street before I ought to. The engineers left their engines there at Twenty-sixth street after we had got the trains ready to go. The mob got in front, and the first engineer blew down brakes, and got off. Then the second engineer did the same. The assistant engineer came to me and asked what he was going to do. I said I didn't know. He said he would run that engine if anybody else would. The road foreman came up, and I told him what Mr. Phillips had said, and he got on one engine and Phillips got on another. Then some person hallooed: "If you move that engine we will blow your brains out." Then they did not start. They all went out. There were about sixteen policemen there, but they could not apparently do anything with them.
Q. How many men got in front?
A. Suppose forty or fifty.
Q. Were they all railroad employés?
A. I don't think they were.
Q. Who composed the balance of the crowd?
A. I am not able to say.
Q. What time was that?
A. I can't say that positively, either.
Q. As near as you can tell?
A. Somewhere about twelve o'clock.
Q. Thursday?
A. Yes.
Q. You say that some policemen came up there?
A. About sixteen.
Q. Who was at the head of the police?
A. I can't say who.
Q. Just explain what effort they made to disperse the mob?
A. We got the train ready to start, and five or six of them got on one engine and the same on the other, and the balance of them got on the train. At Twenty-eighth street they arrested McCullough.
Q. Who made the arrest?
A. Four or five of them had hold of him.
Q. Policemen?
A. Yes.
By Senator Torbert:
Q. He was the person that struck Mr. Watt?
A. I suppose so.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was not any attack made on the crowd by the policemen?
A. They tried to get them away.
Q. How? With their clubs?
A. No. By pushing them with their hands, I suppose.
Q. What was done next?
A. The balance of the day the men could not do anything. The crowd appeared to increase all the time.
Q. Did you have any conversation with those men that refused to go at first to ascertain their reasons for their refusal?
A. I asked what their reason was for not going, and they allowed that they would not run on double-headers.
Q. All gave that as their reason?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you any knowledge before Thursday morning that such a refusal would be made?
A. No; I didn't have the slightest idea until I went up that morning from the west end of the yard.
Q. Did you talk with the men to find out whether there was any prearranged plan to strike that morning?
A. I did not ask them anything about it. They might have had an idea of striking, but I don't think the time was set. That being the morning that the double-headers was to go out, they picked on that morning very suddenly.
Q. When was that order first promulgated or known to the men?
A. I don't remember the date. I think it must have been a few days before that, but I can't say how many.
Q. Had you heard anything said by the men about the order prior to that morning?
A. No. Whatever they did do in the matter, they kept among themselves.
Q. Were you on the ground during the day of Friday?
A. Yes.
Q. Relate to us what occurred. Had double-headers been run before that day on the road?
A. Yes; the Union and National lines were double-headers, and our coal trains were double-headers. Some trains, such as coal trains between Derry—they were running them double for a number of years.
Q. Had you run through freight trains as double-headers before Thursday?
A. Yes; the Union and National lines.
Q. That morning, the order to run double-headers on all freight trains went into effect?
A. Yes.
Q. That required the discharge of a number of men, did it not?
A. I don't know whether they intended to discharge them or suspend them temporarily.
Q. Were any of those men who were suspended or not retained in the employ of the company among that crowd of twenty that you spoke of?
A. Not that I remember of seeing.
Q. That crowd of twenty was composed of men retained in the employ of the company?
A. Principally, but there might have been some others scattered among them.
Q. How are those men paid—the brakemen and conductors—by the hour, or the day, or the month?
A. They are paid by the day.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What do you mean by the day?
A. In the yard a day of twelve hours constitutes a day—eleven hours—they get paid extra for the meal hour.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. And over hours?
A. In the yard. I simply sent a message again, telling them to await at Rochester, and to send an escort of men down the road to receive me.
Q. To whom did you direct it?
A. To Colonel Carpenter, at Rochester. I expected he would be at Rochester. He was the commanding officer of the troops. When I got to Rochester, I went up and found he had not arrived—that the division had not arrived. I immediately telegraphed for it to move immediately down. I found it was at Greenville, and I gave the direction again to the officer in charge, not specifying any person in particular. In about an hour, after several attempts to get messages or several attempts to get answers, I went again for an answer, and after the instrument fluttering for half a minute, and all communication being suspended for half an hour, I got a message saying that the troops were at dinner, and would move immediately after dinner.
Q. What time was that?
A. Twelve o'clock, on Sunday. In the meantime, I had communication with General Latta. He told me to address him again at Union Depot hotel, and in the next communication to address him at the Monongahela house. Up to three o'clock he remained, I believe, at Union Depot hotel. All the communications I had from him were at the Union Depot hotel. Hearing that the Philadelphia troops had left the round-house and left the city, and fearing for my own ammunition, which the mob around me threatened to burn——
Q. At Rochester?
A. Yes; but which I afterwards saved by going out and stating in a loud voice, that I had thrown it all in the river half an hour ago. I concluded to let the division remain at Greenville, and ordered it to remain there.
Q. What time did you give that order?
A. Probably about half past twelve, as near as I can remember.
Q. On Sunday?
A. Yes.
Q. To whom was it addressed?
A. I forget whether it was addressed to Colonel Carpenter or not. I think it was to the officer in command of the troops there.
Q. Did it reach Colonel Carpenter?
A. Yes; delivered by the agent there. Then I telegraphed to General Latta, that I was going to Greenville. At three o'clock I started for Greenville, but didn't reach there until ten o'clock the next morning, having to go to Ohio. I went to the troops, but I didn't have any communications from General Latta, and fearing that my ammunition would be entirely destroyed at Rochester, I thought it best to try to form the division at some other point, and so I ordered them home. Then I started to meet the Governor, knowing he was coming from Chicago, but not meeting him, I returned immediately to Greenville, and ordered Colonel Carpenter to re-assemble the whole division at Franklin, and by Friday night I had everybody and everything in camp, and in so fair a way, that I was confident I could handle them, and ordered a movement for Saturday morning to Pittsburgh, which no person knew. I had received a communication from the Governor on Saturday night, to know when I would move, which I answered, that he might expect me shortly, at any time. After starting at Franklin, on the way, I received a dispatch from him or from General Latta, who I don't remember, saying he didn't think it was safe for me to come to Pittsburgh with the small amount of ammunition I had. I answered back, I was on the way, and unless I received peremptory orders, I would be in Pittsburgh that night. I came there Saturday night; as soon as I came, the Governor came down—it was raining fearfully—and said he wanted me to open the road on Monday, and for me to select what troops I wanted to use, and that night or the next morning, I selected Colonel Carpenter's regiment for the work, and the Governor sent for me, and said he wanted all the stock trains moved out that day. The stock trains were moved out on Sunday, and the freight trains on Monday, without particular opposition.
Q. Will you give us the time when Colonel Carpenter's regiment reached Greenville?
A. All the regiment didn't reach Greenville. Some of the companies kept back in Meadville. Having only one train, one engine, and one engineer under our control, the officers decided very wisely, as I should have done, to remain there until the division should be concentrated, and then move down together. The whole division was not concentrated at Greenville. There was a company from Ridgway, one from Corry, one company from Union, two companies from Meadville, and there was one company from Clarion county, which was not ordered out, because it was so far away at the time.
Q. The order you sent for Colonel Carpenter to go to Rochester—do you know whether he received that order or not?
A. I didn't send it directly to Colonel Carpenter, for at no time was I certain Colonel Carpenter was there; but to the officer in charge of the troops. I was not certain my adjutant general was there.
Q. The North East company, and the Erie company, and the Conneautville company were at Greenville?
A. If I remember right, the North East company, under Captain Orton; Captains Riddle and Curtiss's company, of Erie; Captain Rupert, of Conneautville; Captain Kreps, of Greenville; Captain Fruit, of Jefferson; Captain Dight, of Pine Grove; and Captain Wright, of Mercer—eight or nine companies.
Q. What day did they assemble at Greenville?
A. They probably got there Sunday morning—possibly some of them Saturday night.
Q. Did Colonel Carpenter, who was in command there, receive your orders to move to Rochester?
A. He received the orders to move to Rochester, because he replied that the men were at dinner, and that as soon as dinner was over they would move.
Q. Did he receive any orders from you before that?
A. No; I don't think I sent him direct orders before that. The orders I sent before were from Chicago to Colonel Clarke to move the division to Rochester.
Q. Then it was three or four o'clock on Sunday afternoon when you sent the order to him to form?
A. No; about twelve and a half o'clock.
Q. Then he had no time to start?
A. No; they were about starting out the depot when I got my order not to start.
Q. Did you approve of his course in remaining at Greenville?
A. I did. Captain Riddle wanted to move down right away with all the men they had, but some of the rest didn't want to go, and Colonel Carpenter said to me that he had got into somewhat of a trouble about moving, and asked if I approved of his action, and I said perfectly—I didn't expect the division to move until it was in shape to take care of itself, and I entirely approve of your course. I went to Riddle, and called him to one side, and said this thing has gone further than I expected, and I don't want any more trouble. I didn't want the division to move down without being strong enough, although we had men enough I am confident, if we had ammunition, to wipe the whole city of Pittsburgh right out.
Q. Would it have been proper for him, with the nine companies he had, in case they were there early on Sunday morning, at Greenville—would it have been proper for him, as a military officer, to have gone on with them to Rochester?
A. No. If the division had got into a fight, he would have been the officer to handle the division, if I was not present. He never got the orders from me until I ordered him at twelve o'clock, and then I had reason to believe he was going to move immediately. The troops had been in Greenville for a day, and they were scattered around, and visiting in saloons and hotels. The men had to support themselves the best they could, and they could not keep them together, even by companies.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How do the brakemen get paid, and the conductors?
A. They get paid by the trip.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. In case they are delayed on the trip, are the men not paid extra for the time they are delayed?
A. Generally, when they are delayed any ways long, the conductor refers his case to the train master, and if he approves of it, they get paid extra.
Q. Did the men retained in the employ of the company and the discharged men have any communication with each other on the morning of Thursday, that you know of?
A. Not that I have any knowledge of.
Q. Did they not have a secret organization?
A. I believe they have an order called the Train Men's Union.
Q. Do you know the object of that organization?
A. No; I do not.
Q. Do you know whether those twenty men assembled there were members of that organization or not?
A. I don't know. I have an idea that they were.
Q. Were there any double-headers that succeeded in starting that morning of Thursday?
A. No; not from Pittsburgh.
Q. What time was the first train regularly to start?
A. Eight-forty.
Q. Can you tell us whether between the hour of twelve, midnight, and eight-forty, any double-headers left on Thursday morning.
A. The four o'clock trains went out double.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How many went out at four o'clock?
A. All, I believe.
Q. Were you on the ground on Friday?
A. Yes; I was around there.
Q. How was the crowd on Friday morning?
A. It appeared to increase all the time.
Q. How large was it on Friday morning?
A. I can't exactly say how large. They were coming and going all the time.
Q. Give us an estimate?
A. In the neighborhood of a couple of thousand.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Were they noisy?
A. Some of them were and some of them were not.
Q. Were they making threats?
A. I just occasionally heard them making threats.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How had it been there during the night?
A. Some of them were there all night stopping everything, so that we could not get along. The engines would stop.
Q. Were they noisy and boisterous?
A. The western engines coming up with the live stock were stopped and sent back on the same track.
Q. Was the crowd on Friday morning composed of the same men as on Thursday—were the same men leading the crowd?
A. I cannot say whether they were leading it or not; the crowd was so big they were all mixed up through it.
Q. Did you see any of the same men in the crowd on Friday?
A. I don't remember that I did. Some of the leaders of the crowd there on Thursday night had gone to Lawrenceville on Friday.
Q. Did you have any conversation with the train men on Friday about starting the trains.
A. No.
Q. Did you try to raise any crew on Friday?
A. We had a yard crew still there and two or three crews already to go out, provided they would let them go.
Q. Were you able to take any trains out on Friday, or if not, what hindered them from going out?
A. The mob at Twenty-eighth street——
Q. Were you able to take any trains out on Friday?
A. No; on account of the crowd at Twenty-eighth street making threats to the men—what they would do.
Q. State the condition of the crowd during the day, whether it was increasing or not, and whether it was demonstrative and boisterous or not?
A. Later in the day it appeared to increase.
Q. Did they allow the passenger cars to pass?
A. They allowed them to go. Some of them were stopped, but they let them pass afterwards.
Q. What means did they take to stop those trains?
A. Some of them would halloo and make threats, and others would get up and spring on the engines, and the engineers would have to stop to see what was the matter.
Q. Did they turn any of the switches?
A. Not that I remember of.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. They just piled on the trains?
A. Yes; they filled the engines and cars.
Q. Did they attempt any violence on the men running the trains during the day of Friday by throwing stones or clubs?
A. Not there, they didn't.
Q. Did they anywhere along the road?
A. I don't know whether they did outside of Pittsburgh or not. We didn't move anything on Friday except live stock. They agreed that we might move that, but nothing else.
Q. You say the live stock was moved?
A. Yes; on Friday. First in the morning—then they stopped it. Then Mr. Garrett, the train master, and me went up and saw them, and he talked to them. There was a big run of stock coming off the Fort Wayne road, and some of them said they would let him have one engine to haul it. He said that they ought to know better, that one engine was not sufficient, and they agreed to let him have two. So we got engines enough to move the stock to East Liberty.
Q. They said you could have one engine. Who was it that told this to Mr. Garrett?
A. I don't know who it was.
Q. Did you hear the conversation between the men and Mr. Garrett?
A. I was with him in the crowd. We had to go right into it like a wedge.
Q. Were they railroad men?
A. Some of them were railroad men.
Q. Men then in the employ of the company, or who had been up to the morning of Thursday?
A. Yes; they were still in the employ of the company, so far as I know.
Q. They were the spokesmen for the crowd, were they?
A. One of them was the spokesmen. We asked for the spokesman when we went there.
Q. Who was that man?
A. I don't remember now who he was.
Q. An engineer, conductor, or brakeman?
A. I think he was a brakeman.
Q. What is Mr. Garrett's first name?
A. His name is David Garrett.
By Mr. Means:
Q. At Twenty-eighth street, did the mob of men stop the train going east?
A. They stopped everything.
Q. Who did that?
A. I don't know whether it was by employés or others.
Q. They prevented the engines from connecting with your stock trains?
A. Yes; sometimes they told the engineers to go on back.
Q. They sent the engines back?
A. Yes; they were sent right back on going out the track, and sent in again on coming out the track.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Describe the crowd during Friday night?
A. I was not there during that night.
Q. Were you there during Saturday morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Describe things then?
A. Early in the morning there was not such a very large crowd, but towards evening, just before the soldiers came up——
Q. How large was it in the morning early?
A. I don't suppose there were over two hundred people.
Q. What time was that?
A. About seven o'clock—that is outside of the soldiers. The Fourteenth and Eighteenth regiments were there then, I believe. In the evening along about five o'clock, at the time the firing began, in the neighborhood of the railroad, and in the streets there were from five to seven thousand people.
Q. Who composed that crowd then—what class of men?
A. They appeared to be all classes.
Q. Railroad employés?
A. Railroad and mill men, and I guess a few of every kind.
Q. When you refer to the crowd of five thousand, do you mean to say that all of that crowd were riotous or engaged in riotous conduct?
A. I don't mean to say that.
Q. You say that a portion of them were lookers-on?
A. Yes.
Q. How many were actually engaged in the riot at that time?
A. I cannot say. They were scattered around here and there and everywhere.
Q. Was there any division or separation between the rioters and the crowd that was looking on?
A. I guess they were scattered through the crowd everywhere around the railroad.
Q. Down on the railroad were any persons looking on—were they along the railroad track, or were they back on the hill?
A. They were standing on the hill and on the railroad track, too. Some of them might be railroad men of other roads, and I never know it.
Q. Were there any women and children mixed up with the crowd?
A. There were some on the street and hill-side.
Q. That crowd had been accumulating all day I suppose?
A. Yes.
Q. How was it in regard to any boisterous or noisy demonstrations?
A. I would say that some of them were pretty boisterous. Some of them would be about half tight, and were raising a little excitement here and among themselves.
Q. When did the crowd begin to get demonstrative or boisterous, at what time in the day?
A. Along about twelve o'clock probably, and about five it got worse. The work shops and all the mills, as a general thing, shut down about three o'clock on Saturday. I suppose that helped to increase the crowd.
Q. Were you among the crowd during Saturday night?
A. No.
Q. Were you present at Twenty-eighth street when the firing of the soldiers took place?
A. I was between Twenty-sixth and Twenty-eighth streets when they began to shoot—about half way.
Q. You were in sight so that you could see?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear any orders given to fire?
A. No; I was not near enough to hear, but I saw one or two missiles thrown from the hillside and the shooting began after that.
Q. By whom were the missiles thrown?
A. I cannot say that; they came from the thick part of the crowd on the hillside.
Q. Was there any firing before the missiles were thrown?
A. I don't remember; it was a little after.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did it appear to be pistol shots or musketry?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. Were any shots fired from the hill?
A. I cannot tell whether they came from the hill or from the soldiers. There were some scattering shots, and then a kind of general volley.
Q. Were those shots pistol shots or musket shots?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. What effect did the firing have upon the crowd?
A. It appeared to drive them back for a while.
Q. Which way did they go?
A. They scattered in all directions—some went north, south, east, and west—in every direction—the best way they could get out.
Q. Did it clear the track?
A. It cleared the track for a while.
Q. For what distance?
A. Near down to Twenty-eighth street—that is about the only place that was obstructed.
Q. When did the mob begin to reassemble after that?
A. It took place somewhere along about six o'clock, I suppose. I was not there.
Q. When were you there next?
A. Sunday morning when I came in everything was on fire—was burning—seven and a half o'clock.
Q. How far?
A. To Twenty-eighth street.
Q. From what point?
A. What we call the south yard—the tracks south of the main track between Lawrenceville and Twenty-eighth street—they were burning, and they were burning the upper round-house then. I was along on the hill side, within sight of the track, from seven and a half that morning until eight o'clock that night.
Q. Where were the soldiers or troops?
A. They had left there then, and went into the work-house, I believe. They left the round-house between five and six o'clock in the morning.
Q. What took place during the day of Sunday—how large was the crowd Sunday morning?
A. The crowd that was burning?
Q. Engaged in actual riotous conduct?
A. There were these right in the yard—there appeared to be somewhere in the neighborhood of a thousand people. I cannot tell whether they all belonged to the crowd or not. They appeared to be following after it—breaking the cars open and taking out what they wanted, and then setting fire to them.
Q. Who was breaking open the cars?
A. I cannot tell who they were.
Q. Did you go to see?
A. I didn't go near enough to recognize any of them.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. From their appearance could you form any idea as to whether they were railroad men or not?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Was there nothing to distinguish them?
A. No.
Q. Who was engaged in firing the cars at that time?
A. I cannot tell that.
Q. Were they setting the cars on fire with torches and fire brands?
A. Yes. Wherever there was a gap they would carry the fire over the gap to the next place.
Q. Did you make any effort to see who those men were?
A. I could not tell who they were.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What kind of men were they?
A. They were rough looking men.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How near did you go?
A. I was a hundred feet or so from them. I heard that detectives were there. Some of them told me, in fact, that they understood detectives were among them watching them.
Q. Did you see any of your men among the crowd on Sunday morning?
A. No; I did not.
Adjourned to meet at three o'clock, P.M.
SAME DAY.
Orphan's Court Room,
Pittsburgh, Friday, February 8, 1878—3 P.M.
Pursuant to adjournment, the committee re-assembled at three, P.M., this day, and continued the taking of testimony.
The first witness examined was
William Ryan, sworn with uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. In the Fifteenth ward of the city of Pittsburgh.
Q. Are you in the employ of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been in their employ, and in what capacity?
A. I cannot state the precise date when I entered the service of the company; but I judge it is between eight and ten years.
Q. In what capacity were you employed in July last?
A. As freight conductor.
Q. Between what points?
A. Pittsburgh and Derry, or between Pittsburgh and Conemaugh.
Q. You were a conductor on trains that ran double-headers?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been running on trains that run in that way?
A. I cannot tell the length of time precisely, but I was running them from the time they started—that is, from the time they started to run through freight as double.
Q. About how long?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. Two or three years?
A. I hardly fancy it could be that long. I should say a year.
Q. Were you at the depot or about the depot on the morning of the 19th—Thursday morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that your morning for going out as conductor of the train?
A. It was my train that should have started out. It was my morning.
Q. What was your time for going out?
A. If I recollect right, it was eight-forty.
Q. Did you start that morning or make any attempt to start?
A. We made every preparation to start, with the exception of coupling up the train. I examined the train as I was going into the yard. I thought the men were rather long in getting the engine out. I started up, and on going to the train men's room met two of my brakemen, and asked the cause of the delay. They told me they didn't intend to go out. I asked the reason. They said they had either quit or struck—I don't recollect. I asked what their object was in striking. They said they didn't intend to run on double-headers—that they were not making any more than a living at that time, and that by running double-headers, it would cause some of them to be dismissed or suspended. That they didn't know who it would be, and as they had the advantage at that time, they would make the best use of it they could.
Q. Those were your brakemen?
A. Yes.
Q. What were their names?
A. One was named John Vensel and the other I cannot give his first name. In giving in his time, I always gave it as M. Martin.
Q. What time had you this conversation with them?
A. I judge about nine o'clock.
Q. They said that some of them would be dismissed?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any further conversation with them?
A. I did.
Q. What about?
A. I tried to advise them not to strike, and showed them the folly of it. I told them that the times were hard at present and that freight was very slack, and that the company was trying to economize and that their chances were just as good as mine. I advised them to stay. They claimed "no," that they had determined to quit, and were going to do it or had done it. I notified the dispatcher then that the men had quit, and asked what I was to do. He told me to remain, and that he would provide men for me. He went around and made an effort to get men but could not get them. I then asked permission to go to dinner, and I went, and came back about twelve or one. There was no change in the affair at all, everything remained just as it had been.
Q. Where did these men go when they refused to go out on the train?
A. In the yard.
Q. They did not go home?
A. No; they remained in the yard up to the time I left, and I saw them there in the afternoon.
Q. Were there any other men about at that time?
A. Yes; men were continually coming in off the road.
Q. How many men were there when you left to go to dinner?
A. I should judge about eighteen or twenty men at that time.
Q. Did you have any conversation with any other men?
A. With my flagman.
Q. What did he say?
A. He thought as the rest did, that now was the time to strike or quit, and that they all had concluded to do it, and that all my conversation with him would not change his ideas a particle.
Q. What men were coming in?
A. The men off the regular freight trains kept coming in there during the day.
Q. They joined the other men?
A. Yes; and swelled the crowd.
Q. Did you talk with those men to find out whether they had arranged for this strike previously?
A. I did not. I blamed them for it, but they denied it. Whether they had made an arrangement or not for that day, I don't know.
Q. They denied an arrangement?
A. Yes.
Q. How many of them denied it?
A. Two or three of them I think denied it. They had made an arrangement previous to this to strike, but from some cause or other it was not carried into effect, and my being a non-union man, I concluded that they had arranged it in such a way that the responsibility would fall on me, and in case it would be a failure I would be the man discharged, and that the union men would not suffer. That was the opinion I formed that morning.
Q. How long previous had they made this arrangement?
A. A month or two months before.
Q. What prevented the carrying of the arrangement into effect?
A. I do not know. When a railroad man came to me, and requested me to join them, I told them I could not do it; that my opinion was different from theirs with reference to strikes; that I did not feel justified in doing it. He asked me if I had any injury. I told him I could not say. He said: "I am going to strike to-morrow." I went as far as Derry, and laid over two or three hours. The only person there I saw by himself was the dispatcher. I went to him and told him in confidence that these men were going to strike.
Q. When was that?
A. It was previous to this affair of the men going out—a month or two months.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. After the reduction of ten per cent.?
A. Yes. I told the dispatcher that these men had come to the conclusion to strike, and told him I wanted to let it be known—that two thirds of them were not friends of mine, and it would only cause me trouble by their going out, and I would notify the proper officers in time to give them a chance to prevent in case it should occur. I returned to the city that morning with the train. Coming in, I wondered how to get at the superintendent's office without being seen. I did not care about being known, and after putting the train away, I concluded I would go out on the accommodation, but I met one of my men, and I got into conversation with him, and I asked him if he knew anything about it. He said he did, and he said it had fallen through. I asked him if he was positive of it, he said he was—that he knew it had. I told him I was very glad to hear it. Says he, I am not. I concluded then not to go out. I made inquiries among other men, and found it to be the fact, that they had concluded not to strike at the time appointed.
Q. Did this man give you any reasons?
A. He did not.
Q. Who was he?
A. His name was Sloan.
Q. Did you hear any other conversation or learn anything of any other union or organization to strike from that morning until the 19th?
A. No.
Q. Had you any knowledge that your men would not go out until you met them—those two men?
A. None whatever.
Q. How long before that morning was it known to the men that the order had been issued to run double-headers?
A. It was known in six hours, I should judge, to all the men on the line after the order was posted on the bulletin boards.
Q. When was it posted?
A. I cannot give the date, but fancy it was posted twenty-four hours before the order should have gone into effect.
Q. Did you discover that it produced any commotion among the men?
A. Not more so than at other times. There was general dissatisfaction among the men on account of the double trains. Of course it increased it somewhat. There were several trains running before this order was issued, but when this order would go into effect it would make all trains double, and this would cause them to feel more dissatisfied.
Q. After you returned from your dinner on Friday, how large a crowd did you find in the yard?
A. I judge about twenty men—twenty-five—probably more.
Q. All railroad employés?
A. I cannot say that, but the greater portion of them at that time were railroad employés. The crowd gradually increased until evening.
Q. Did you have any conversation with the men after you returned from your dinner?
A. With some of them.
Q. About going out?
A. I spoke to them, and asked them who had organized it, and what they were going to do about it. They said they did not know, that they had quit because the rest had, and intended to see it through.
Q. Was there any effort made that afternoon to start the trains?
A. I believe not that afternoon to my knowledge.
Q. When was the first effort made to start the trains, to your knowledge?
A. Thursday morning.
Q. Was there none made on Friday morning, to your knowledge?
A. I think not.
Q. Or during the day Friday?
A. An effort was made, I think, in the afternoon of Friday.
Q. Were you present when that effort was made?
A. I was.
Q. How large was the crowd at that time?
A. I cannot tell the number, but it was a very large crowd.
Q. Composed of employés of your railroad, and of the different roads?
A. Almost all classes of men were there.
Q. Who seemed to be the leaders, at that time, of the crowd?
A. It would be a very difficult matter for me to say. In fact they all seemed to lead—where one would go, the rest would follow.
Q. Do you mean helter-skelter?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did there seem to be any leader who was taking charge of the riot?
A. In the beginning there was one man that seemed to take the lead—on the morning of Thursday, but after that I lost all trace of him.
Q. Who was he?
A. His name was Hice. I was in the telegraph office on Thursday morning, after the strike occurred, talking to the train runner. He came up, after the conversation with me, and I saw him in the act of trying to couple an engine on to some caboose cars. They failed to do so on account of the throwing of stones and other missiles.
Q. What time was that?
A. I judge about ten o'clock—along there somewhere.
Q. Thursday?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that the first violence that was used?
A. The first I saw.
Q. Who were those persons who were throwing the stones?
A. I cannot say who they were.
Q. How many composed the crowd at that time?
A. I fancy some fifteen or eighteen men that I saw there, but might have been more.
Q. Were they all railroad employés?
A. I cannot say that.
Q. Were those brakemen who had refused to go out with you among them?
A. That I cannot say. I was not close enough to see whether my men were among them or not.
Q. On Friday afternoon, when the attempt was made to start the train, will you tell us what occurred then?
A. As near as I can recollect, the train was made up, and it was pulled up out of the freight yard. I don't know whether the caboose car was coupled or not. I cannot recollect, but I saw the train start as though it was going to go out. I saw men run in front of the engines to stop them, and I saw the parties get off of them, and the train then was backed into the yard after that.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was that on Friday?
A. I cannot say whether it was Thursday afternoon or Friday, but it was one of those two days. It seems to me it was Thursday afternoon—the same day.
Q. When the resistance was made there, was it a combined resistance of all the men, or did only two or three seem to be leading the others?
A. It was a general rush, a swinging of hands, and a yelling and hooting.
Q. Were any missiles thrown of any kind?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Was any violence used towards those who were trying to take the train out?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Were any threats made to the loyal men who were willing to work?
A. I was not close enough to hear the conversation.
Q. Were you threatened at any time if you did not leave the yard?
A. Not directly. Two or three men came to me, and asked me if I was going out. I told them yes, if I could get a crew, and one of them intimated to me that I had better not go, or words to that effect—that they did not want to hurt me, or something like that. That was about all.
Q. Whom did you report to when your men refused to go out?
A. The dispatcher.
Q. What is his name?
A. William Hunter.
Q. How many trains were to go out at that hour—eight-forty?
A. I think mine was the only one at that time, with the exception of the single train going on the branch.
Q. When were the next trains to start?
A. The next, I believe, would have been eleven o'clock—no; the next would have been nine-forty.
Q. Do you know whether the conductors of those trains were all prepared to start them or not?
A. I believe one of them was there.
Q. Did you have any talk with him?
A. I did.
Q. Was he willing to go?
A. No; he was not.
Q. He was among the strikers?
A. Yes.
Q. Were the engineers willing to go?
A. That I do not know. One of them came to me and ask if I was going out, and I told him yes, if I could get a crew. He turned around and walked away, and did not say anything more to me about it.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What was this conductor's name?
A. Meredith.
Q. You said that two or three men came and asked you if you were going out, and you said yes, if you could get a crew, and that then they intimated it would be well for you if you did not. Who were these men?
A. One was D. W. Davis. The other name I do not recollect.
Q. What was his position at that time?
A. A brakeman, I believe.
Q. Had he been discharged or was he still in the employ of the company?
A. He was in the employ of the company up to that morning, so far as I know.
Q. Do you know where he is now?
A. No.
Q. Has he been in the employ of the company since?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. The other's name you do not remember?
A. I don't remember at all.
Q. Where is this Conductor Meredith?
A. I think he is in some part of Kentucky.
Q. How many men did you have as trainmen for one train?
A. Three.
Q. Besides yourself, and aside from the engineer and fireman?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did you have any fear of violence from the employés of the road if you started out?
A. Well, I had a fear, but no serious fear. I did not think that they would kill me.
Q. You did not believe on the morning of the riot that they would do so?
A. No; besides I was determined to protect myself in the best way I could.
John Plender, sworn with uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. I am living at Walls station.
Q. Are you in the employ of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?
A. Yes, sir; I am running a passenger engine—the "accommodation"—as engineer.
Q. Were you in July last?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Between what points?
A. Between Walls and Pittsburgh.
Q. What is the distance of Walls from Pittsburgh?
A. Sixteen miles.
Q. How often do you make your trips?
A. I make three round trips a day.
Q. Were you at the Union depot on Thursday morning, the 19th?
A. I came in that morning from Walls, at eight-fifteen.
Q. What time did you go out?
A. At twelve-five.
Q. Where were you between eight-fifteen and twelve-five?
A. In the round-house, at work on my engine.
Q. When did you first learn that any men had refused to go out on their trains?
A. I suppose it was half-past nine when one of the men told me. It was an engineer that told me.
Q. Was he one that had refused to go out?
A. No; he had just come in.
Q. Did you learn anything more about it between that time and twelve o'clock?
A. No. The "Yioughiougheny" came in, and he told me that there was a strike.
Q. What then took place?
A. That was all that took place between him and me.
Q. Did you remain in the round-house?
A. I remained in there until eleven o'clock, when I backed out, and came down and took out the train.
Q. Were you interfered with in any way?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any conversation with the strikers that day?
A. Not until evening.
Q. Whom did you see in the evening?
A. I had no conversation, no more than a man stopped me at Twenty-eighth street, and asked me what I was hauling.
Q. Were you coming in or going out?
A. I was going out on the last trip, at eleven-forty. I told him I was hauling an accommodation train. He told me I could go on, and he got down off the engine.
Q. Did they stop you?
A. No; they were all standing there, and when I came up—we all have to stop there—he got on the engine.
Q. At what point?
A. At Twenty-eighth street.
Q. How many were standing there then?
A. Quite a number—I suppose about thirty-five or forty of them.
Q. Did you know any of them?
A. I knew him. It was dark, and I couldn't see who the rest were.
Q. What was the name of that man?
A. D. W. Davis, I think.
Q. Did he say anything more to you?
A. No; nothing more. He said it was all right, that I could go on, after I told him what I was hauling.
Q. What was the manner of the crowd at that time as to their being boisterous or demonstrative?
A. Indeed, I could not tell you. We just stop for a couple of minutes, and sometimes not that long.
Q. You had no conversation with any other excepting the one who got on your engine?
A. That is all. He was discharged off this road a couple of times, and off the Pan-Handle, I believe.
Q. Why was he discharged?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. Where did he live?
A. Somewhere about Twenty-eighth street.
Q. Did you learn that day, or any time after that, when these parties resolved to strike?
A. No.
Q. Did you know of any preconceived plan of striking?
A. No; I did not.
Q. Do you know whether they have a secret organization or not?
A. All I heard of was the Train Men's Union—that is all I know of.
Q. What is the object of that?
A. That I cannot tell you. I never was in any of their meetings, and know nothing about it.
Q. Do you know whether there was any other organization?
A. The Engineers' Brotherhood.
Q. What is the object of that?
A. That I cannot tell you. It is something I never belonged to.
Q. Did you come in on your regular trip in the morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you molested in any way?
A. No.
Q. Did you go out on time and come in on time all day Friday?