AFTERNOON SESSION.
Philadelphia, Friday, March 22, 1878.
Pursuant to adjournment, the committee met, at two o'clock, P.M., this day, in the St. Cloud hotel, this city, and continued taking of testimony.
The first witness examined was:
Robert A. Ammon, sworn:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. State where you reside?
A. In Pittsburgh, when I am at home.
Q. Where are you doing business now?
A. In the city of New York.
Q. How long have you been there?
A. Since the 31st day of December.
Q. When did you leave Pittsburgh?
A. I left Pittsburgh on the 30th day of December, on the eight o'clock train.
Q. You mean December last?
A. Yes.
Q. What business were you engaged in prior to the 19th day of July, 1877?
A. I was railroading.
Q. On what road?
A. On the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne and Chicago.
Q. What position did you occupy on that road?
A. I was a freight brakeman on through freight—fast freight.
Q. How long had you been acting as a freight brakeman?
A. Nearly eleven months.
Q. Where were you on the 19th day of July, when the first disturbance occurred at Pittsburgh among the railroad employés?
A. I was on the train part of the 19th, and in the city of Pittsburgh part of the day, and in the city of Allegheny part of the day.
Q. Thursday the 19th?
A. Yes.
Q. State what you saw of the strike—when it commenced there, and what information you had about it?
A. The first knowledge I had of the strike—I went up to the oil country on the 16th or 17th—I have forgotten the date—a few days prior to strike—to take a position with a friend of mine there, who I had worked for formerly. Before I left Pittsburgh, I had heard of the strike at Martinsburg, in West Virginia, but didn't pay much attention to it, as I was acquainted with the men down there, and didn't think it amounted to a row of pins. I went on up to the oil country. It was on the 18th day of July. I believe I received a telegram from a particular friend of mine that trouble was expected in Pittsburgh, and that he would like me to come down.
Q. Where were you when you received that telegram?
A. At Parker City, Armstrong county.
Q. Who sent you the telegram?
A. A railroad employé.
Q. Give us his name?
A. No; I would rather not.
Q. Very well, go on with the history?
A. He wanted me to answer quick, but I didn't answer the telegram, so I got another telegram to come down that night, sure, and I did so. I came down.
Q. To Pittsburgh?
A. Yes.
Q. What time did you arrive there?
A. Seven-thirteen, I think it is. We got in on time that morning.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. The 19th?
A. Yes, I think so—the morning of the strike. I have forgotten the date. I met some of the boys on jumping off the train, and they told me what they were going to do, and asked me to go along with them; but I refused to do that, and told them I didn't think it was any of my affair at all—that, so far as the union men were concerned, I would stay with them, but I wouldn't go to the office of the superintendent of the road with them, because I was not an employé of the road. I had been discharged before that.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What did they tell you they were going to do?
A. That they were going to strike.
Q. How many of them?
A. That they were all going to strike. Some friends of mine met me there, when I came down on the train.
Q. How many of those men met you?
A. I cannot say. There may have been half a dozen or a dozen of them.
Q. What class of men? What position did they hold on the railroad?
A. They were conductors and brakemen.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Were there any engineers?
A. I think there were two or three engineers with them, from the Connellsville division of the Baltimore and Ohio road. I stayed there, and talked with them a while, and then went over to Allegheny. I got my breakfast and fooled around the house with my wife and baby for about an hour, and then went to bed. I was tired, as I had been up talking with the conductor of the train all the night before. After I went to bed they came over and knocked at the door, and asked my wife if I was in. She said yes, but that I was in bed. They then said that they wanted to see me, and she said they couldn't, for I was asleep. So they went away, but came back again, in the course of an hour. I heard the noise down stairs, and asked what the matter was, and she said that they wanted me to come out, that they were going out on a strike; but I refused to go with them, and gave my reasons for refusing to go.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What were those reasons?
A. These men at the house were members of the Trainmen's Union, but two or three of them I considered scabs, and didn't want to have anything to do with them. A strike was to take place on the 27th of June, when some of those men were instrumental in getting up a rumpus in the Trainmen's Union, and I didn't want to have anything to do with them. I went back to bed again, and I think I must have slept until quarter past two o'clock when five brakemen and two conductors came up to the house and told my wife that they wanted to see me. She came up and called me, and I said it is all right, if they are going to strike I would be there. They went away, and I turned over in bed, and was just going to take another nap, when my wife called and said, Bob, they are going to put No. 15 engine on the siding. I jumped up out of bed, and looked out of the window, and I could see them putting the engine in on the side track. So I then jumped into my clothing as quick as I could, and just as I got to the door five or six of them were there, and they said they wanted me to come quick, that the mayor was coming with twenty-five police. It is just a stone's throw from my house to the track, and my wife had something ready to eat, and I just swallowed a bite and went out on the track. I saw the engine standing there, and the chief of police and about twenty-five police. I jumped up on the engine, when he told me to get off the engine. I told him I wouldn't do it, and I wanted to know why I should, I told him he had no authority. Then an order was given to arrest me, but Mr. Ross, was a neighbor of mine and I told him I was a quiet, orderly citizen, and that I refused to be arrested; that I had not been guilty of any breach of the peace as I saw; but he said, Bob, you had better get off the engine, when I said I wouldn't be put off, but as the dispatcher instructed me to get off the engine I got off. I then started down to the lower end of the yard. Before I got down there the dispatcher asked me what I was going to do, and I said I was going down to see the fun. He said, you are not, you are going down to countenance the strikers. I said, Mr. Ross, I am not. He said, you are in sympathy with them, and I said I am, but I would not say one word to them. So I went down there, and got in the midst of them, and with that the chief of police and twenty-five policemen were told to disperse the men there. They wanted the men dispersed. The police commenced to circulate pretty free among the boys, and I said it was not right, and jumped up on a box car and called for them to come over to me. They all came. I saw Mayor Philips, of Allegheny, there, and they cried out to me to tell him just what they were there for, and who they were, and I did so. I explained to the chief of police and the mayor who they were and what they were going to do.
Q. What time was that?
A. About two-twenty.
Q. Thursday or Friday afternoon?
A. That was Friday. I have not got the date.
Q. You say two-twenty?
A. Yes.
Q. All this occurred on Friday?
A. Yes; all this occurred on Friday.
Q. At the Fort Wayne and Chicago depot?
A. Yes.
Q. Go on.
A. The police didn't disperse them. They couldn't get the train out, and they started to run the engine back into the round-house.
Q. Who is Mr. Ross?
A. The dispatcher of the Fort Wayne road, and Mr. Ross is the chief of police.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. He is a brother?
A. No; he is no relation to him at all. That afternoon two or three sections of freight came in, and some of us jumped up on the cars and told the boys what we were doing, and they all came right with us. They stored everything away—put everything in good shape.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What do you mean by storing things away?
A. Putting things away compactly on the tracks. To go back now to Mayor Phillips. I read his statement in the Pittsburgh Dispatch. As soon as I jumped down off the box car, Mayor Phillips sent one of his police officers over to me, who said that he would like to see me. I told him it was all right, and I walked over to where he was and spoke to him. He said that he had heard everything I had said, and I asked him if he had any fault to find with it, and he said no. I believe I told him just what we intended to do, and that he should not be alarmed about our destroying property or the safety of the city or anything of that kind. That we intended to strike and were going to strike, and thought that we had a right to strike. I asked him if I had been guilty of any breach of the peace, one way or the other, and he told me no, and that as long as I did not do anything worse, that no one could arrest me, and that I should resist if any one did attempt to arrest me. Before he went away he told me that he would leave that portion of Allegheny in my charge. Several of the boys heard what was said, and they repeated it to the others, and they told the mayor that anything I said would be carried out. I never saw Mayor Phillips after that.
Q. Who stood by during that conversation with Mayor Phillips—anybody?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you name any of the parties?
A. I would rather not, for this reason, there is an indictment hanging against me in Allegheny county, and I wrote to my attorney about this matter, and he told me that he did not want me to say anything that would have any bearing on my trial. These men I have subpœnaed as witnesses, and they are working on the road now.
Q. Go on for the present?
A. We got everything into as good shape as possible. Wherever we could get hold of the wires we used them.
Q. Do I understand you to say that you took charge of the telegraph office.
A. No; but we telegraphed wherever we could wire—we used the telegraph. They had got orders not to allow any messages to go over the wires from actual or intended strikers anywheres.
Q. Go on and relate from that time what occurred during the progress of the strike?
A. I would sooner answer questions than tell you. I cannot give the story in full, and I do not want to give it to you half. So far as I am individually concerned, I would not care; but there are other men interested, and I would not want to implicate them.
Q. How large was the crowd on Friday afternoon, when Mayor Phillips was at the depot?
A. I should judge there was in the neighborhood—railroad men there—a hundred, and two or three times as many citizens.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. On Friday?
A. Yes.
Q. Did any freight cars leave the depot or arrive at the depot that night—Friday night?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you allow any freight trains to go out after that time?
A. We did.
Q. How many?
A. None went, but we allowed them to go if they could get the men. I told Mayor Phillips distinctly, that if they could get scabs enough to go on them that I would guarantee that any man who would scab it over the road would not be hurt.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What do you mean by a scab?
A. I consider a scab when a set of men combine themselves together for a certain purpose—when a man goes back on his obligations, or, in other words, if a man will work for less wages than his fellow men, and preach before going out on a strike that he will stand up for those wages.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You call those scabs?
A. Yes.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Do you mean non-union men?
A. Yes; but it is not necessary that a man should be a non-union man to be a scab. What I call a scab is a man that will take an oath and go back on that oath—perjure himself.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You mean belong to a union and go back on the order?
A. Yes; but I say it is not necessary that a man should belong to a union. I mean a man that will turn around and work for less money.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Do I understand you to say that you were willing to let trains go out if they could get the men to run them?
A. Yes; I stated that distinctly, and others there heard it.
Q. Was any attempt made to start trains?
A. They called on every man on the road, and every man refused to go out.
Q. Did you or the party with you interfere with trains going out in any way?
A. No.
Q. You were the leader of the party on the Fort Wayne and Chicago road?
A. I was supposed to be.
Q. Did you interfere with the men who wanted to go out in any way?
A. No.
Q. Did you try to persuade the men not to go out or to run their trains?
A. At what time?
Q. At any time during the progress of the strike or previous to the strike?
A. Undoubtedly, I did. I was a member of the Trainmen's Union—I was the head of it—I mean the union. We said that if they did not give us our wages we would not work.
Q. On Friday, did you try to persuade any men not to go out?
A. Directly?
Q. Yes?
A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. Did any of the strikers?
A. I would rather not answer that question.
Q. It is a fair question. Did any of them try to persuade men not to run their trains?
A. They did through moral suasion. They talked to them kindly and pleasantly. They did not threaten them or anything of that kind.
Q. No threats were made?
A. No.
Q. And no attempt at violence was made?
A. We did not try to bulldoze anybody.
Q. During Friday night and during the day, Saturday, you were masters of the situation there in Allegheny City? That part of the city was placed in your care?
A. Yes.
Q. How large was the crowd during Saturday night?
A. It was large. It would be pretty hard to tell. Sometimes it was a pretty big crowd, and sometimes it was not so big.
Q. How many actual strikers were there?
A. They were all there. All the brakemen and firemen were there anyhow.
Q. How large was the number of actual strikers collected together there during Friday and Saturday and Sunday—taking in those days?
A. From one hundred and fifty to three hundred.
Q. Did you learn that troops were expected to arrive from Erie or from Meadville?
A. Yes.
Q. On Saturday and Saturday night?
A. Yes.
Q. State what was done to prevent those troops from coming in—what measures the strikers adopted, if any.
A. I believe they let them come. I do not know why General Huidekoper did not come.
Q. Was it arranged among yourselves to let them come in?
A. I believe they could have come as far as Allegheny City.
Q. Did not the strikers send a party down to the lower end of the yard, or below the depot, to intercept any train of troops that might be coming in?
A. Some people did go down. I suppose they just walked down that way to see how things were going.
Q. Was it not agreed that no troops should be allowed to arrive?
A. I do not see how they were going to stop the troops coming to Allegheny City, unless they threw them off the track.
Q. Was not that the arrangement—to throw them off the track to prevent their arrival?
A. No.
Q. Did not a party come down armed to prevent the troops from coming in?
A. No; they did not. Men were stationed as far as Sewickley. I suppose some had guns or revolvers.
Q. Strikers?
A. Men in sympathy with the strikers.
Q. What were they stationed along there for?
A. I suppose they wanted to know what was coming up along the road, or something of that kind. We did not know what was going to happen. They thought that maybe some soldiers might be coming up along the road. We would have known it then if the soldiers had come. They could not have got to Homewood unless we would have known it.
Q. Why?
A. We knew perfectly that No. 18 was carrying signals for the southward. It is the Erie night express, due in Allegheny at eleven o'clock.
Q. Who stationed those men along the road at Sewickley?
A. I suppose they walked down themselves.
Q. Who stationed them there? Who gave them orders to go there and occupy those positions?
A. I do not know that anybody gave them orders to occupy positions along the road, or to fire into trains, or anything of that kind. Men were sent down the road to watch everything.
Q. Sent by the strikers, were they?
A. Yes.
Q. What were they to watch—what instructions were they given?
A. If the troops were coming up we wanted to know something about it. We did not have engines to fire up and the water had run out, and so those men were stationed down there. Some had arms and some had not. If the troops came up and disembarked at Sewickley, or east of Sewickley, we would know it, by their discharging their pieces, that the troops had disembarked.
Q. They were to fire off their pieces as a signal?
A. Yes; to let us know what the troops were doing.
Q. Was it arranged that they should prevent the trains from coming in?
A. The calculation was to let the trains come right up to Strawberry lane.
Q. Through the Fort Wayne depot?
A. It is below—at the lower end of the yard.
Q. That is where the larger portion of the strikers were?
A. It was head-quarters.
Q. Your intrenchments were there?
A. There were intrenchments there.
Q. What did you intend to do, then, in case the troops came up to Strawberry lane?
A. We proposed to interview them before they got to Strawberry lane.
Q. How interview them?
A. We proposed to get on the train at Wood run, about two miles below there.
Q. How many were to get aboard the train there?
A. About three.
Q. For what purpose?
A. To see the commanding officer there and have a little talk with him and explain matters to him.
Q. What did you intend to do in case the troops arrived?
A. We proposed to dance in case the soldiers played the music, that is all about it.
Q. Did you propose to fight the soldiers?
A. No, sir; we did not, but we did not propose to be shot down like dogs by any men.
Q. Were you armed?
A. We were.
Q. With what kind of arms?
A. There were so many different kinds that I cannot enumerate them.
Q. Enumerate some of them?
A. Well, improved needle guns, and shot guns, and rifles, and revolvers—things of that kind.
Q. Where did you get your arms?
A. At different places.
Q. Name some of the places?
A. Pittsburgh and Allegheny.
Q. At what particular places did you get them?
A. We got some of them on Sixth street, Pittsburgh.
Q. At whose establishment, or store?
A. We did not get them out of a store.
Q. Where did you get them?
A. I was not along with them when they got them.
Q. State if you know where you got them?
A. I cannot state that, because I did not see them, I only heard so. They got them out of a wagon, that is all I know.
Q. You say from a wagon?
A. Or bus.
Q. Did you get any anywhere else?
A. Yes.
Q. Where?
A. In Allegheny city.
Q. At what point?
A. Not far away from the suspension bridge.
Q. Go on and state all the particulars?
A. If it was myself alone I would not care.
Q. You need not name individuals?
A. If I was to tell you where those men got them, you could find out who was there. I lay in prison three months because I would not tell that, and I do not propose to tell it now.
Q. But you say you had arms?
A. Yes; given to us by citizens.
Q. Of Pittsburgh?
A. Yes; and Allegheny. I was offered two hundred stand of arms more than I had.
Q. By citizens?
A. Yes; and two very prominent citizens of Allegheny. One of them has testified before this honorable committee. He offered to furnish a hundred stand of arms, and told me——
Q. Do you mean Mayor Phillips?
A. No.
Q. Have you any objections to stating who offered you the arms. It is a matter of importance, and you have made an oath——
A. I know that, but I would rather not answer the question.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. When were those arms offered?
A. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
Q. But they were offered for the purpose of keeping the peace, were they not? You had promised to keep order?
A. I did, undoubtedly, promise that to Mayor Phillips, and my action shows that I was a quiet and peaceable citizen.
Q. But were not those arms offered for the purpose of keeping the peace?
A. Nothing was said about that at all, sir. Nothing was said about it at all.
Q. But those arms were not given you to resist the troops?
A. Yes, they were; some of them.
Q. You say that the citizens gave you those arms to resist the troops?
A. Yes.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did those two prominent citizens?
A. No, sir; they did not.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What did they give you the arms for?
A. Nothing was said.
Q. What did these two prominent citizens offer you the arms for?
A. One of them spoke for himself, and mentioned another prominent citizen who would also furnish arms.
Q. What day was that?
A. I won't be positive—it was either Saturday evening or Sunday evening—no, I am sure it was Sunday evening.
Q. What was the conversation about—in what connection did he offer you those arms?
A. The way it came about was this. He came over to Allegheny to the telegraph office, and asked some man outside where Mr. Ammon was, and he said inside the office. He asked if I would see him. I knew him by reputation, and I met him in the private telegraph office—he came in there. He told me he would like to have ten minutes of my time. He then sat down, and then asked me to give him the wages that each man was paid on the road—brakemen, firemen, engineers, and conductors. I sat down and talked with him awhile, and gave him those figures. Then he asked me whether the majority of the railroad men were single men or married men, and I told him they were married men. And he said he could not blame the men for striking, and that he hoped and prayed they would stand out like men, but not be guilty of any violence, and that as long as we did that we would have the support of every citizen of Allegheny county. And he said that if we wanted any assistance or any help, that he would give both money and arms—he said I will furnish a hundred stand of arms, and I know another prominent citizen who told me that he would also furnish arms. I thanked him, and my attention was called in another direction.
Q. Did he mention the name of the other citizen?
A. He did.
Q. Now we would like to have the names of those individuals?
A. I have no objection to giving them to the committee privately, but I don't want them to be known.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You said if the soldiers fiddled, you proposed to dance?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you intended, if the soldiers pretended to sustain good order, to resist them?
A. In the first place, our object——
Q. The question is a straight one?
A. I will give it to you straight. We proposed to treat the commanding officer with all the respect in the world due to his position. We were perfectly well aware that the chief executive of the State was out of the State, and we did not think that he could depute his powers to any one in the State. So we would want to know where he got his orders from, and if he got them from a railroad magnate, we did not propose to pay any attention to him.
Q. But you said if the soldiers fiddled, you proposed to dance?
A. Yes.
Q. Then if they proposed to maintain order, you proposed to resist them—answer yes or no?
A. I refuse to answer the question in that way.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. If the soldiers undertook to disperse the crowd assembled there, did the strikers intend to resist?
A. I did for one, undoubtedly. I would rather have died right there, before I would have budged an inch.
Q. Was it talked of—was it understood that you, as a body, would resist?
A. I don't think there was a man there but what would have gone to just what I led him to.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What do you mean by saying if the commanding officer had his orders from a railroad magnate, you intended to do thus and so?
A. What do you mean?
Q. To resist, I understood you to say?
A. No; we proposed if General Huidekoper came to Allegheny, to go and interview him and explain the situation. We were going to ask him the question as citizens of the Commonwealth, for we looked upon it we had that right; if he had his orders from the chief executive or from Governor Hartranft; if he had, we would recognize him, if he had not, we did not propose to recognize him any more than anybody else. We proposed to treat him as a rioter, for we did not count ourselves as rioters, for if the mob had come we would have given the mob the best we had.
Q. Then you would have resisted in that case?
A. If he did not have authority, undoubtedly.
Q. But suppose he had authority?
A. Then we would have recognized it.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Do I understand you to say that you would have resisted if the soldiers had undertaken to disperse you?
A. We looked at it this way: the Governor was out of the State, and we had our reasons for thinking he had not got his orders from the Governor, so we proposed to see who he got his orders from.
Q. If he had his orders from the Governor or the commander-in-chief, then you would have obeyed his orders and dispersed?
A. Yes, if he had his orders from the Governor. That was the only authority we recognized, and we knew he was out of the State.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did you take advantage of his absence in this strike?
A. No, we did not.
Q. But you were well aware he was out of the State?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it your impression that no other man in the State of Pennsylvania could order out the military?
A. That was our impression of it, yes.
Q. It certainly would be a bad fix if there was nobody else that could order out the military?
A. All right; we knew the Lieutenant Governor was here.
Q. You did not take advantage of the Governor's absence, then?
A. No; we thought we had some rights that the railroad men were bound to respect, but they did not seem to respect them. They treated us like mad dogs.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. When was the Trainmen's Union organized?
A. On Saturday evening, June 2, 1877.
Q. Were you a member of the body?
A. I was the first man that ever took an oath in it.
Q. What was the purpose—what were the objects of that Union?
A. The purpose and object of the Trainmen's Union was to get the trainmen—composing engineers, conductors, brakemen, and firemen, on the three grand trunk lines of the country—into one solid body. We knew that a reduction over the three grand trunk lines was going to take place, and we thought if we could combine into one body all the men, at a certain hour on a certain day, if the railroad magnates did not accede to our demands we would strike, and leave the trains standing just where they were, and go home. That was the object of the Trainmen's Union.
Q. Do you know how far and wide it extended?
A. Yes.
Q. Please state?
A. It extended over the Baltimore and Ohio, the road from Pittsburg to Baltimore, the Fort Wayne road from Pittsburg to Chicago, and I think the last division was organized at Valparaiso, or Fort Wayne. It was on the Northern Central and its leased lines, and all the leased lines of the Pennsylvania company were in it.
Q. Did it extend on the Erie road, and to the Atlantic and Great Western?
A. Yes.
Q. Over the whole length of the road?
A. I do not know.
Q. Where did it originate?
A. In Allegheny City.
Q. What arrangements, if any, were made by your organization for a strike?
A. When we thought we were strong enough so we could control at least three-fourths of the men of those roads, then we thought we could bring matters to a point—we could all quit. We knew they could not find enough green men to run the roads, and we thought that the citizens would look at it in the same light as we did—that the citizens would not care to trust their lives to green men—that the people traveling on the roads would not trust their lives to green men; and we thought by all going off and stopping the traffic on the roads that they would give us back our ten per cent.
Q. It was not organized until after the ten per cent. reduction was made on the 1st of June?
A. No; but it was talked about before that.
Q. How long before that was it talked about?
A. I believe the notice was stuck up by the Pennsylvania Company about the 26th or 27th day of May—somewhere in that neighborhood—and from that time on it was talked about.
Q. What led the men to talk about it at that time?
A. The notice was stuck up, that there would be a reduction.
Q. That was the first that called the attention of the men to it?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any day set for the strike by the Trainmen's Union?
A. The 27th day of June, at twelve o'clock.
Q. State the extent of this strike as it was expected to take place on the 27th of June? How many men had you, who had agreed to strike? How wide was it to extend over the country?
A. I have just mentioned over the different lines.
Q. Had they all agreed to strike on that day?
A. Yes. Three or four days before the 27th of June—the 27th day of June was a Wednesday—the Sunday night before, that is, the 24th, forty men were sent out from Pittsburgh, so if they shut off the wires from us, we could notify the different divisions if we could not get telegrams to them in time, that if anything turned up, that it was ordered, and that that was the day set.
Q. At what hour?
A. At twelve o'clock, noon, June the 27th.
Q. To what points were those men sent?
A. All over the different trunk lines.
Q. To notify all the different lodges or divisions?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they so notify them?
A. They did, I believe, so far as they could get. But a hitch occurred before the 27th.
Q. What was it?
A. That was a Sunday night. On Monday night, the Pan-Handle division had a meeting, and most of the members from the other divisions were there, and it was decided on Monday night, when delegates from all the divisions around were there, that the strike should take place on the 27th, and on Tuesday night, all the members of the divisions around there were to come to Allegheny, to the usual place of meeting, and have another talk with the boys there. They met there, when three or four of them kicked up a rumpus, and it came near ending in a row. Some of the men who were the first to go into the thing—who were the first to propose doing anything, were the very men to kick, and two of them that night, went out on No. 11, west, and took the news out west, that there would be no strike the next day. We were all ready on the 27th, at twelve o'clock, noon, to go out on a strike, but we got telegrams from everywhere, asking if we were going on a strike, or whether we were not going on a strike. So the thing got mixed up, and they stopped the telegraph wires, and we couldn't get a word over. We had some trains stopped at Pittsburgh, but I had them all moved out on the track again, as I thought we had better let the thing go, than make a failure of it, and wait for some better time—a better organization, or some time when we could get things into better shape.
Q. What became of those men, sent out to notify the various divisions?
A. They beat their way back again, I guess, from all over the country to Pittsburgh.
Q. Did the Trainmen's Union break up at that time, or did they continue their organization?
A. They never had a meeting after the 27th, that I know of, in Pittsburgh.
Q. Did they at any other point?
A. Yes; the Trainmen's Union is still in existence.
Q. Was there any time arranged afterwards for a strike?
A. No; no time was agreed upon, but all labored under the impression that the bubble had grown so large, that it would have to burst sooner or later.
Q. Was there any pre-arranged plan, by which any strike was to take place on the 19th of July?
A. No, there was not. There was some little talk about it, if the railroad company would do so and so, that they would kick.
Q. Do what?
A. Put on double-headers.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What do you mean by kick?
A. Not stand it.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Strike, do you mean?
A. Yes.
Q. Then there was no pre-arranged plan for that strike on the 19th?
A. There was no pre-arranged plan.
Q. Was it talked over?
A. Not on that day; but just as soon as they put on double-headers they didn't propose to submit to it, as they thought seventeen cars were enough for the men to take care of.
Q. These double-headers were only confined to the Pennsylvania Central?
A. Yes.
Q. They didn't extend over any other roads leading into Pittsburgh?
A. No.
Q. Was it known to the men on any other roads that the men on the Pennsylvania Central were going to strike?
A. I suppose they knew that they had their sympathy.
Q. I understood you to say that you left Pittsburgh the day before the strike?
A. No; I left it about the 16th.
Q. Did you know any thing about it then, or understand that there would be a strike then?
A. Yes; I remarked after the 27th day of June that I was positive there would be a strike, sooner or later—that the thing would have to come to a head itself.
Q. Did they say to you, or did you understand from any employés on the Pennsylvania Central road, that there would be a strike on the 19th?
A. No one knew that they were going to strike on that day.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Then no time was set?
A. No.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was it understood that when the order was given to run the double-headers that they would strike?
A. It was understood that just as soon as they put on double-headers they wouldn't run them. The men couldn't stand it.
Q. Did you know any thing about the strike at Martinsburg?
A. Yes; I heard of it.
Q. Before it took place?
A. No; not before it took place. I knew of it as soon as it did take place.
Q. Was there any general understanding that a strike would take place at the time the strike broke out at Martinsburg?
A. No; the understanding we had of this thing—our object in organizing the Trainmen's Union was, that the Pennsylvania Company would make a reduction on the first of June of ten per cent., and that, if their employés submitted to it, that the New York Central would follow about the 1st of July, and if their employés submitted to it—they had two roads, and had pooled their earnings—they would make a reduction on the 15th of July on the Baltimore and Ohio. They thought if they didn't get a strike before the 15th day of July, then the Pennsylvania road and these other roads would get so used to it, or that they would get us so frightened that we would have the idea knocked out of us, if they could run their traffic over those roads. They were not going to make a reduction over two trunk lines at one time.
Q. Did all that happen?
A. No; there was a reduction on the Pennsylvania on the 1st of June, and on Vanderbilt's road on the 1st of July, and on the Baltimore and Ohio on the 15th or 16th, and on the 15th was the strike.
Q. Did you have any communication with the men at Martinsburg before they struck?
A. I had some friends down there, and I used to hear from them once in a while.
Q. About the strike—this particular strike that took place at Martinsburg—did your union communicate with them? Was it understood or arranged between you for that strike on the 16th?
A. No; although they said that just as soon as they got the reduction they were going to strike.
Q. I understand you to say it was the double-headers, or the order to run them, that caused the strike on the 16th, at Pittsburgh?
A. Yes; because it was the wrong time to put on the double-headers, just following the strike at Martinsburg. That just started the whole thing.
Q. This Trainmen's Union was organized, you say, for the purpose of protecting yourself?
A. For protecting our own interests.
Q. What had you to complain of at the time of organizing the union?
A. The ten per cent. reduction. We thought we were getting little enough money.
Q. Had you anything else to complain of?
A. Yes; we had something a little worse than the reduction. That was all right. If they saw fit to reduce, and could get men to work at their rate, all right. The officials of the road, and Mr. Scott, all treated us all right. It was only the little under-officials who treated us like dogs. I was told that if I voted for a certain man I would get discharged off the road. I wanted to vote for a neighbor of mine.
Q. By whom were you told that?
A. By a petty under-official, the assistant day dispatcher.
Q. Had you anything to complain of, except this ten per cent. reduction?
A. Not on our road—not on the Fort Wayne road.
Q. Had they on the Pennsylvania Central, before the order was issued to run the double-headers?
A. No; I don't believe they had.
Q. That was the only thing you had to complain of?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any negotiations with the magnates of the road in regard to that?
A. Yes; we appointed a committee to wait on them, and talk with them, and try to get the thing settled up; but we couldn't reach them with a forty-foot pole. We tried everything with reference to avoiding a strike.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. How long were you on the road?
A. About eleven months, I guess.
Q. Had there been any talk of striking before—during those eleven months?
A. No.
Q. Were any committees appointed to wait on the officials?
A. That was when we heard of the ten per cent. reduction.
Q. Had you any grievances before?
A. No.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. It was arranged then by your union that you would strike in case of a reduction?
A. That was what we organized for.
Q. Do you claim the right at all times to strike as a body? Do you claim that it is one of the rights that you have?
A. I claim that every free born American citizen, if necessary, has the right to quit work if he wants to. That is what I call striking—quitting work.
Q. Doing anything more?
A. We have no right to destroy property.
Q. Do you claim it as a right to interfere with those who want to work?
A. It is a right to use mere suasion. If I were to see you rushing on headlong on the breakers, and I can stop you, I would do so.
Q. Do you claim that you have a right to assemble in crowds or groups upon the property of the railroad company?
A. If that is where we are employed; yes.
Q. But when you strike, you are no longer in the employ of the railroad company?
A. No; not when we have once struck.
Q. Then after you have struck you don't claim that you have the right to assemble there?
A. Until we are ordered off?
Q. But when ordered off, have you the right to refuse to go?
A. It depends greatly upon who orders you off.
Q. When ordered off by an official of the railroad company?
A. If I am there for any unlawful purpose, I ought to go, but if I am not there for any unlawful purpose, and if I run against a man who wants to show fight or ride a big horse, I don't think I have any business to go, if I want to stay.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. But do you say that you have the right to go on another man's property and stay there if he wants you to go away?
A. I don't recognize any one like a day dispatcher. It is not his business.
Q. But it is his business to keep the track clear?
A. No; it is not.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You did assemble at yard of the Fort Wayne and Chicago road, one hundred and fifty or two hundred of you?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you ordered off—ordered to leave or disperse?
A. No; directly we were not.
Q. By any one belonging to the road?
A. The dispatcher told the chief of police to disperse this mob, that they were not employés of the Fort Wayne road, but rioters and loafers from Pittsburgh, and wouldn't allow their men to work.
Q. You resisted this? You refused to go?
A. I don't like a man to call me a liar.
Q. Did you refuse to go?
A. No one told me to go off the property.
Q. Didn't the policemen tell you to go?
A. No.
Q. Didn't they undertake to disperse you?
A. They got in amongst us, but they didn't push or tell us to go off.
Q. But you refused to go?
A. We didn't understand it that way.
Q. Was it not your duty to disperse when the policemen requested you, having been instructed so to do by the officials of the railroad company?
A. The police didn't tell us to disperse.
Q. You knew what they came among you for, and what commands had been given to them by the officers of the railroad company?
A. I heard the dispatcher say, disperse this lot of loafers and rioters from Pittsburgh. I don't know that he spoke to me.
Q. Did he refer to the crowd?
A. I don't know of any loafers or bummers in that crowd.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Were you ordered to disperse by anybody?
A. No; the dispatcher didn't speak to us, but to the chief of police, that these men are a lot of rioters from Pittsburgh, and he wanted them off the property.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you consider you had the right to take that property and pack it away on the side tracks?
A. I thought I did perfectly right.
Q. If it was in danger of being destroyed?
A. Everybody appeared to be excited, and they had lost their heads, so that you couldn't get them to do anything. There were some passenger and freight cars, and a lot of cars loaded with live stock standing on one track, and nobody appeared to know what to do with them. People came to me and asked what to do, from even the dispatcher himself—he looked to me.
Q. But after you had refused to work, had you any right to interfere with that property?
A. We didn't interfere with the property.
Q. Had you any right to do anything with it?
A. If we were asked to do it we had.
Q. Had you any right to interfere with that property in any way?
A. Yes.
Q. You understand what I mean by my question? Do you not think it was your duty, after having refused to work, to leave the premises entirely and go away?
A. That depends on circumstances.
Q. But if you were working for a man and stopped work, or he turned you off, have you any right to remain around?
A. That depends a great deal on whether he wants me around or not.
Q. But have you any right to interfere with his property in any way, under any circumstances?
A. I would think I was a very foolish man. If my property was in danger I would like him to come and lend a hand.
Q. I didn't ask any question about the property being in danger?
A. We didn't interfere with the property in any way or manner.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Had the commander of the military refused an interview with you, or the party you represent, what would have been the consequences—what was your determination?
A. I don't know as we figured that far ahead.
Q. But you must have had some plan, sir?
A. I didn't happen to meet him, therefore, I cannot tell you.
Q. I want to know what was your determination?
A. That is something nobody knows.
Q. I insist upon an answer?
A. It is a question I cannot answer.
Q. This is the question. Had the commander of the military refused to have an interview with you or the party you represent, what was your determination—what did you intend to do?
A. That would have depended greatly on circumstances. I don't know what we would have done.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you intend to resist the militia?
A. If you or any other man or the militia had raised a gun to shoot me, I undoubtedly would have resisted.
Q. But answer yes or no, then explain after answering the question?
A. What is the question?
Q. Did you intend to resist the militia had they attempted to disperse the crowd?
A. I will have to answer the question yes and no. If they had come with the requisite authority from the Governor of the State and ordered us to disperse, undoubtedly we would have obeyed them. If they had authority from the Governor of the State, I, for one, would have walked away.
Q. But suppose they had authority from General Latta?
A. I didn't recognize him.
Q. You didn't recognize him?
A. I didn't at that time.
Q. Certainly you couldn't have been a law-abiding citizen if you didn't?
A. I didn't at that time.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Then you intended to use your own judgment as to whether the militia were there lawfully or unlawfully?
A. I look upon General Huidekoper as a gentleman, and don't think he would lie.
Q. Suppose he had said he was there on authority from the Governor?
A. I told you I would have gone off the premises and walked away. If he had told me it was none of my business, I would have told him I would make it my business. If he had told me he was there by authority of some railroad official, I would have told him that the best thing he could do for his own and for our sake, would be to take the back track, and go away.
Q. Did you see the daily papers of that week?
A. No; I don't believe I did.
Q. Did you see a published proclamation of the Governor's?
A. I don't believe I did.
Q. Did you know a proclamation had been issued?
A. I had heard of it.
Q. Commanding all citizens to disperse?
A. I had heard of it, but I didn't read it.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Then you and your party were to be the judges, whether or not General Latta had authority or not?
A. We were open to conviction. We thought we were endowed with a little common sense.
Q. I don't doubt it for a moment—not at all. But you were to be the judges whether General Latta had authority or not?
A. The way I came to get under that impression—an attorney, the first day of the strike, who was around there when this question came up about the Governor being out of the State, said that the troops or military could not be ordered out, because the Governor was not here.
Q. Give us his name?
A. I cannot give it.
Q. I insist upon it?
A. I refuse to answer the question.
Q. If the committee insists upon an answer you certainly will have to answer, because you have sworn to tell the truth?
A. Well, I well give the committee the names of any of these parties in confidence, but I don't care about telling their names to the world. I am perfectly willing to give them to the committee in confidence. I don't want to keep anything back, but I don't want to tell tales on anybody else.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did your association have an attorney employed—the Trainmen's Union?
A. Two or three were around there, sort of acting as though they were employed, but we never knew who employed them.
Q. Did you consult with them?
A. No; they came there and gave us advice.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Gratuitously?
A. That is about it.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Were they ever paid any fees?
A. Not that I know of.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Were they practicing attorneys at the bar?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You continued to keep up the strike there, and hold possession of the railroad property, until the arrival of the Governor of the State, did you not?
A. I believe we were on the premises when the Governor arrived.
Q. And had possession of the property of the railroad?
A. I don't know. The property was all lying there. No one was holding it?
Q. But didn't you guard it. Didn't you exercise care of it, and didn't you afterwards deliver it over to the railroad officials?
A. Yes; we told them that we wouldn't have anything more to do with it, that they must get somebody else to watch it.
Q. Who did you deliver it to?
A. A man I did not recognize came down and took possession for Mayor Phillips or his police.
Q. You surrendered the property to him?
A. No, sir; I did not, but to the officers of the road.
Q. What day was that?
A. That was the evening the Governor came in.
Q. The evening the Governor arrived?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any interview with the Governor on his arrival?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us what that was?
A. I had a little talk with him and passed the compliments of the day, and asked him to come out and say a few words to the boys, and he came out on the back platform and said something to them. We then passed on to the round-house, where there was a crowd of some five or six hundred, and he spoke a few words to them, and then went on to the city of Allegheny, where the citizens met him with a carriage and took him to Pittsburgh, by the suspension bridge.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you telegraph to him?
A. I did.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What was the nature of those telegrams?
A. Some of them are part of history. I telegraphed along the line not to interfere with the train he was on, so as not to get him angry with us, and I telegraphed him guaranteeing him a safe passage to Allegheny city.
Q. You had the power to give him a safe passage through?
A. My name was good enough at that time.
Q. Over the length of the Fort Wayne and Chicago road?
A. Yes.
Q. You controlled the road at that time?
A. It appeared that they were not going to recognize any man's orders but mine.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. But they got obstreperous at last on your hands?
A. Towards the last.
Q. Didn't you go to a meeting with some citizens to a hall?
A. Yes.
Q. And there they thought you were taking too much authority on you?
A. They thought I was going back on them. At least a scab did. He supposed I was misrepresenting things at that time. At least I think so now. They were starving, and wanted coal, and I ordered a provision train and a coal train out, and one fellow wanted to kill me right off.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. So they struck on you?
A. Yes; this was the following Thursday. I had not been down from the Tuesday night when the Governor arrived until this afternoon of Thursday.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What means did you take to enforce your orders after they struck on you?
A. They did not strike on me.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Didn't they refuse to obey your orders?
A. I had ceased to exist at that time. That was on the Tuesday night, and this meeting was on Thursday afternoon. Because I would not come up, I suppose they felt sick and sore, and thought I was trying to sell them out.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Those citizens you talked about who offered you arms, were not those men the ones who went with you to the meeting?
A. Neither one of them was there.
Q. Didn't they ask you to protect this property, and after a conversation with you, didn't you agree to go with them to this meeting and talk to the rioters?
A. There were no rioters on the Fort Wayne road.
Q. Or the strikers?
A. Yes.
Q. Didn't you promise them to keep order, and in consideration of that didn't they agree to give you the arms to keep off the mob in case any party came to burn the town?
A. No, sir; this was on the Thursday after the fire. I was at no meeting from the 27th day of June until this Thursday.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Was there no understanding between you and the strikers on the Pennsylvania road during this time, after you got back to Allegheny City and took charge of things—were you acting in concert in preventing trains from going out?
A. I don't know that anything particular of that kind was agreed upon. Of course we talked over things of that kind.
Q. But you had communications with the parties who were striking on the Pennsylvania road?
A. Yes; men were going back and forth all the time.
Q. Was there anybody over there that had control of the strike there or who was looked up to as a leader or recognized as such?
A. There were some three or four of them. The man supposed to be the leader showed the white feather.
Q. Who was that?
A. Samuel Muckle, the president of the Pan Handle division.
Q. He was supposed to be the leader in the start?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was their leader after he showed the white feather?
A. I don't know, but I think Hice. He was at Torrens station.