AFTERNOON SESSION.
Pittsburgh, Tuesday, February 26, 1878.
The committee met, pursuant to adjournment.
All members present except Messrs. Lindsey and Larrabee.
P. J. Young, sworn:
By Mr. Reyburn:
Q. Where is your residence?
A. No. 61 Fountain street.
Q. What is your occupation, sir?
A. Police officer.
Q. Were you on the force at the time of the riots, in July?
A. I was one of the men that was dropped at the time of the reduction—suspended.
Q. Were you on duty on Thursday and Thursday night, at the railroad?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Be kind enough to state what occurred there?
A. Well, on Thursday, about noon, I think, Mayor McCarthy called—came to my place where I lived, and told me to hurry down to the mayor's office, I was wanted. I went down, and met Chief Dimick, and he told me I was wanted on the Pennsylvania railroad, there was a strike. I asked him if I was to act as a police officer, and he says, Yes, I was only suspended. I went out and met Mr. Butler at the Union depot. I believe he is the depot master there, and I told him I was sent out there by the mayor's orders. He sent out a car with me and two more officers to Twenty-eighth street, where we joined more police out there. When I arrived there, there was a large crowd of people congregated upon Twenty-eighth street, along the railroad, and remained there until two or three o'clock. I don't know exactly what time.
Q. In the afternoon?
A. Yes. Then me and four officers were detailed to go on board of a double-header. There was a train going out. I went on the first engine, with another officer, as I understood for a protection for the engineer, as far as East Liberty. The train started, and moved on a little piece up the track, and a crowd of, I couldn't say how many, came in front and motioned their hands at the engineer. I said to the engineer, go ahead. He made some remark, and he jumped off the engine. I remained there on the engine, and finally the fireman jumped off. I stood there for some time, thinking they might come back again. They didn't, and I got off, and was asked by, I think, Mr. Fox—he is police officer of the company—if I wouldn't go on the engine again. I said yes. I went on the engine and remained there. No engineer came aboard, and finally I left. At the same time, the other police that were out there—I don't know how many—were strung all along the track, keeping the crowd off. I suppose in the neighborhood of six o'clock I came into supper here, together with more of the officers, to the Continental, on Fifth avenue, at Mr. Newell's; we had supper there. After supper we all went out. A good many went out along with me to the Union depot, and we expected to get a train to go out as far as Twenty-eighth street. We stayed along there, and no engine came down to the depot that night. Me and two or three more officers walked out Liberty street to Twenty-eighth street. There was a large crowd of people along there when we got out. I moved around through them. We patrolled Liberty and along Penn and Twenty-eighth street, and everything was very quiet. I left, I suppose, in the neighborhood of four o'clock in the morning. About that time. That is all I know.
Q. Did the crowd make any demonstrations? Was that all they did, waving their hands to the engineer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. They didn't make any attempt to commit any violence?
A. No, sir; that night they were a very orderly crowd.
Q. What was this crowd composed of, railroad men?
A. I suppose there was some railroad men there through them.
Q. How many was there, do you suppose, altogether?
A. I couldn't exactly say. There was a large crowd of people. They were scattered up and down the railroad. It was dark.
Q. When you got this train, could you not have run that train out? Did you have a sufficient police force to guard a train—I mean on Thursday afternoon?
A. I wouldn't be afraid, if I was an engineer, to run away. I don't know what might have happened.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did you have a police uniform on?
A. I had a summer uniform—police blouse?
Q. A regular police blouse?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that you would be known as a police officer?
A. I had no buttons on it. I had my shield on the inside of my coat. I wore citizen's clothes all the time I was detailed as a reserve man.
Q. A stranger would not have known you were a police officer?
A. There were a great many that did know me.
Q. A stranger would not have recognized you as being a police officer?
A. No; I didn't wear a shield.
Q. Did you know that engineer that jumped off the train?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know the fireman?
A. No, sir.
Q. How many police officers were there at any one time?
A. I couldn't, in fact, say how many. There was a squad went out in the morning—some more men that was suspended at that time. I don't know how many went out.
Q. Ten or fifteen or twenty?
A. I expect there was over fifteen men.
Q. Was there twenty?
A. I couldn't say, sir.
By Mr. Reyburn:
Q. Did you keep the track clear?
A. The track was clear at that time. Afterwards, of course, we were not keeping it clear. There was a large crowd that stood away back.
Q. On Friday, what did you do?
A. I didn't go out there on Friday.
Q. Why?
A. I think I came down to the mayor's office Friday, and I got some sleep that forenoon, Friday, and I heard that the sheriff and his posse had gone out and our services were not required.
Q. Who told you that?
A. I couldn't say. I don't know whether it came from the chief's clerk or not—Mr. Davis.
Q. You heard it at the office?
A. I heard it, I think, at the office. I won't swear to it, but I think I heard it at the office. However, I didn't go out.
M. Mulvaney, sworn:
By Mr. Reyburn:
Q. What is your full name?
A. Michael Mulvaney.
Q. Where do you reside?
A. In Eighth ward, Pittsburgh.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. Policeman.
Q. Were you on the police force in July, at the time of the disturbance?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What days were you on?
A. On Thursday, the mayor's clerk told me to go to the Union depot there, and report to Mr. Butler. Mr. Butler told me to go to work at the round-house, and two or three more of us went down and we remained there. We went to the round-house, and we met some more of the police and stayed there for a long time. There was a big crowd around there. A lot of the police jumped on the train to help take it out—a double-header. Eight or nine of the police jumped on the train, and I saw the engineer and fireman jump off. The fireman and engineer jumped off. That is all I saw at that time. Everything was quiet.
Q. Were you there during that time?
A. No, sir; I was not. I left at four or five o'clock.
Q. Clearing the tracks and keeping the crowd off?
A. The crowd stood one side.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Were you one of the discharged men?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who sent for you to appear at the mayor's office?
A. I think it was the mayor's clerk or the chief clerk. I could not say which of the two.
Q. How many of you went out together?
A. Me and two more fellows went together at that time.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You went up there to help to take out the train—a double-header?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many of you?
A. I could not say. There was a good many police there. I could not say how many.
Q. Were you on the engine?
A. No, sir; I was not on the engine. I saw a lot of them jump on the engine.
Q. Policemen?
A. Policemen.
Q. Were there any threats made against the engineer or fireman?
A. I did not hear any.
Conrad Shaffer, sworn:
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What is your full name?
A. Conrad Shaffer.
Q. Where do you reside?
A. 318 Fifth avenue.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. Police officer eight years and nine months.
Q. Were you on the police force last July, at the time of the riots?
A. I was not, sir.
Q. Were you sent for to appear at the mayor's office?
A. On Thursday morning, when this occurred, we were standing down there on Smithfield street. We just had been paid off, and I was standing there with George Kauffman, another police officer, and Detective O'Mara came to us and said we were wanted at the mayor's office. We went over, and they said to us there was a strike some place. They did not tell us where. There was ten of us gathered around there in the mayor's office, and we were marched by Smithfield street to the Union depot. Mr. Fox, the railroad officer, was along. We walked up Smithfield to the Union depot and got into a car with the shifter in front, and took us out to Twenty-eighth street. They stopped there and we got out, and when we got there this man McCall, who struck Watt—I seen the man running backwards and forwards—then somebody got him by the back of the neck, and I then ran up and put the nippers on him and arrested him and took him to the Twelfth ward station-house, and we went back to the railroad track. I stayed there all the forenoon, until about two o'clock in the afternoon. There was a train came along, and Mr. Fox came to us and said he wanted men on the engine. Fox told me and Cochran to stay in the rear, and we went back to the rear, and while we were going back the train moved on, and men got in front and done this like, [holding up his hands,] and the engineer got off. The second engineer got off, and the men that was firing they got off, and we stopped there then all the afternoon, and we went to the central station. We had our supper in the Continental, and after we had supper we were marched back again out to the depot. Walked up then to what they call the dispatch office, at the outer depot. There is a little house that they call the dispatch office, and a telegraph dispatch came in that they did not want any more officers—thought they could do without the police out there—so then we stood there for a long time, and did not know what to do, and Clerk Davis told us we might go home if they did not want us. Directly a dispatch came in that we could go out. We were put on a car and taken out again, and we remained all that night, until half past three o'clock in the morning. Then there was no disturbance going on, and we went home. I then stayed at home. We were not wanted any more—the city did not want us, and the railroad company did not want us.
Q. Did they tell you they did not want you?
A. We were our bosses.
Q. You say the railroad company did not want you?
A. I did not see any official of the Pennsylvania railroad there at all. On Monday evening after the proclamation was issued for all the old officers to come back again, I went to the Central station and offered my services, and on Monday morning the mayor, and General Negley, and a squad of his men, and a company of Mr. McFarland's were marched down Smithfield street to this place, where the boat was coming in from Elizabeth—right down here on second avenue—and stopped them, and the mayor and General Negley then made speeches to the men, told them they had better not raise any violence in the city of Pittsburgh, and keep quiet. We were taken away again, and placed on the city of Pittsburgh force on our regular beat.
Q. After you tried to start this train, and the men waved their hands, and the train stopped, did you get off?
A. I was not on the train. I was in the rear of it.
Q. Were the officers in possession of the track?
A. There was officers all along the track.
Q. They could have run this train. It was possible for the train to go out; that is, the crowd could not have interfered.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You went back to the depot after supper?
A. After we had supper, we marched to the Union depot. Went into the telegraph office, outside the Union depot—there was a two story frame they called a dispatch office. A dispatch came in that they did not want any officers, and I asked Clerk Davis, says I, "Don't they want any more police out there" and he said, "It seems not."
Q. Who is Clerk Davis?
A. He was the chief's clerk.
Q. The mayor's clerk?
A. No, sir; the chief's clerk.
Q. He was not a railroad official?
A. No, sir; the chief's clerk.
Q. Dispatch came that they did not want any more officers?
A. They dispatched that a man was here, and if they wanted him, they could have him. There were two young men in there that were playing checkers. I could see them standing at the window and looking in. They were playing checkers at the time, and I walked right up to Mr. Davis, and the young fellow held his ear right down to the instrument when it came. They telegraphed, "You can send him, if the man is willing to go out." So he went.
Q. You did not go back, you said.
A. I went home.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did you know those engineers that jumped off the train?
A. No, sir; they were perfect strangers to me.
Q. Did you know the man that waved, to stop the train?
A. No, sir; he was a tall young man, light moustache, to the best of my recollection.
Q. Did you know any of the railroad employés?
A. No, sir. It was on a different part of the city. My way was out here on Fifth avenue, that was over on the other side.
By Mr. Yutzy:
Q. Did they start the train?
A. They ran about the length of this room.
Q. How many men were on the track in front, and waved and signaled to stop?
A. I could not say how many there were in front of the train. There was not any more on the track than there is in this room.
Q. Did they make any threats?
A. No, sir.
Q. Said nothing to the engineers?
A. No, sir. All the man done was this. [Waving his hands.]
Q. Did you take that to be a signal to stop?
A. I supposed so. I was in the rear, and Mr. Fox told me. He says, "Shaffer, you go in the rear, and get on the train." Says I, "All right, Mr. Fox." Just as I got ready to jump on, the train stopped.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. This man that made these signals, was he on the track in front of the engine?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How far were you from the engine?
A. I went to jump on. I went to get on, and I seen the young man doing this. Some of them hooted and cheered, and then she stopped.
Q. You were not at the rear of the train?
A. Not quite; it was a long train. I do not know how many cars were on it.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Were you up there on Sunday?
A. No, sir.
George Cochrane, sworn:
By Mr. Reyburn:
Q. What is your full name?
A. George Cochrane.
Q. Your residence?
A. Eighth ward.
Q. Occupation?
A. Been on the police force until they dropped these men.
Q. Are you on the force now?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you on duty on Thursday and Thursday night of July 19th?
A. I was one of the ten men that was called in on Thursday.
Q. Be kind enough to relate what occurred?
A. We mustered up ten men, started out to the Union depot, got on a car there and went as far as Twenty-eighth street. Seen a big crowd out there. Stopped around there a little while, and this McCall, he jumped on a switch there and made use of some threatening language, and I believe, struck superintendent Watt, and we arrested him and put him in the Twelfth ward station-house. We fetched him to central station at Diamond alley. We came in, got supper and went out again, then went to the Union depot and stopped out there awhile, and didn't know whether they wanted any more men or not. We stopped there awhile, and finally went out as far as Twenty-eighth street again, and stopped there all night. In the morning, I guess, six or seven o'clock, I came in again—Friday morning I came in to the Union depot, and seen Mr. Fox there, and he detailed me for the depot then—detailed five of us. Stayed in around about the Union depot. I stayed there until nine o'clock Friday night, and Fox told me I had better go home and get some sleep. I went home and came back Saturday morning, stayed around there all day Saturday and Saturday night, and I went up home to change my clothes. Sunday morning I came back again, stayed around until the Union depot had catched fire, and word was sent from the mayor's office that the mayor wanted all the policemen he could get hold of to report at the mayor's. We went down to the mayor's office, and was detailed there, doing duty around the city. We went out Second avenue here and stopped a party there from coming in. The mayor made a speech to them. Went to the Connellsville depot and arrested some thirty or forty there that had taken a train and would not pay any fare.
Q. Taken a train to go out?
A. No; they took charge of a train and would not pay fare.
Q. That was the parties that came from Cumberland, Maryland.
A. Yes; that was the same party.
Q. This double-header, on Thursday, I believe, was thirty-six cars and two locomotives?
A. We started to go out with some four or five policemen on each locomotive. Sheaffer and I was on the rear part of the train, and we made several attempts to go out, and the engineer on the first locomotive he jumped off, and the crowd cheered him. Then he got back on to his locomotive, and got his coat out of the box and put it on, and they both left their engine. There was nobody to hinder them going out, that I could see.
Q. Do you suppose they could run out, and did you have sufficient force to protect them?
A. There was sufficient force to protect them.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Were any of those ten men you speak of, that left the mayor's office, dressed in police uniform?
A. No; they had blouses on them.
Q. Could any of them be distinguished from any other citizens?
A. No; a stranger would not have known them, I suppose. There was hundreds of them out there knew me. I don't suppose a stranger would.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What made the engineers leave their engines?
A. They told them to get off.
Q. They told them to get off?
A. They beckoned for them, I believe, and they got off.
Q. Did you know the engineer?
A. Never had any acquaintance with him. Since that time I have.
Q. You did not know them at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Didn't tell you why they got off?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was any threats made by any one?
A. No, sir.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You speak of these men making some threats. They struck Mr. Watt?
A. Yes, sir; McCall, he used threatening language at the time he struck him.
Q. What did he say?
A. He jumped out there and says, "We will die here."
Q. Die—make a fight before these trains would go out?
A. Yes; we had no trouble out there after we made that arrest?
Patrick J. Carrigan sworn:
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. No. 109 Second avenue.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. Police officer.
Q. Were you on the police force on July 19?
A. Special police officer—yes, sir.
Q. Were you on duty on Thursday and Thursday evening?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you be kind enough to state what occurred?
A. I went on duty Thursday afternoon. There was a pretty good sized crowd at Twenty-eighth street. And they were getting ready to take a train out, and they put a good many officers on each car and the locomotive, and some stayed along the line and watched them. One man got out in front and done this way. [Waving his hand.] The train and the engineer got off.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. I stayed until five o'clock, and then came in town, and they were taking this McCall in; and I got supper, and then went out again in the evening, and stayed there all night.
Q. Were you on duty Friday?
A. No, sir.
Q. Friday night?
A. No, sir.
Q. Saturday?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you on duty at any time afterwards there?
A. Yes; went on duty again on Tuesday after the riot, and when going out on the train, one of the Pennsylvania officials got on the train, and told us when we got to Twenty-eighth street to get off, and not let these men see us. They did not want these men to know that they were…. About twelve of us went up the hill, and lay there behind some trees all night.
Q. This was Thursday?
A. Thursday. A few of us would go down to where the railroad fellows were, and stand around there. There was not over twenty-five or thirty.
Q. Were they on the tracks?
A. No, sir; on Twenty-eighth street. There was nothing on the tracks but railroad men, walking up and down.
Q. Could you have taken that train out that day?
A. Yes, sir; if they had engineers that train could have gone out.
Q. You had possession of the track—and the officers did?
A. There was only this one that was on the track.
Q. Was there any attempt made to assist him?
A. Not that I saw. He went over in the crowd. I was down back where the crowd was, in case of any of them interfering. We were in citizens' clothes, and we scattered amongst them.
Q. There was no attempt made to arrest?
A. They made arrests before I got up.
Q. They got McCall?
A. Yes, sir.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Policemen hid behind trees?
A. We were told to go there by the railroad officials—to get off and not show ourselves; there was some trees in the road, and we laid down there.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Were you ordered by the railroad officials in charge of you to go behind trees?
A. To go up on this road. He didn't tell us to go behind trees.
Q. And conceal yourselves?
A. And conceal ourselves.
John Davis re-called:
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Were you out at Torrens, Mr. Davis, during Thursday?
A. I was.
Q. Will you be kind enough to state what occurred there, and what efforts were made by the police to disperse the crowd?
A. When I got there there was nothing special going on, for everything was quiet. I didn't remain there but a short time—came back to Twenty-eighth street, and when I was there everything was perfectly quiet.
Q. Officers had possession of the track?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have testified to what knowledge you had of the occurrences at Twenty-eighth street?
A. With the exception of Thursday night—a little matter I forgot. After I had got the men their suppers, I went to the depot, and reported at the telegraph office I had men to go out. And the reply came back that everything was quiet, and they needed no more men, and they could not send an engine for us. I told the men what transpired, and directly a second despatch came, that we could go out if we wished to. Some of the men walked out, some remained around the depot, and went out afterwards. As I have stated in my other testimony, on Friday morning I sent officers up to the depot, and they returned and stated that they were not wanted; they had all the men they wished.
Q. I believe you testified to that?
A. Yes; I testified to that.
Q. Anything else?
A. Nothing further than I was a witness of the transaction of the firing.
Q. Have you testified as to that?
A. No, sir. You stopped me right at the firing. I was present when the troops came up, and witnessed the whole transaction.
Q. Go ahead?
A. After the troops came up there were civilians in front of the troops. They halted probably five or six feet from Twenty-eighth street. The column left faced, and marched towards the sand-house. The first two columns about faced and marched towards the hill side—formed an open square—and a detachment of soldiers came between the two columns, with the Gatling guns in the rear of them. A detachment of soldiers came up between the two columns—came towards where the crowd was gathered—at a carry arms, and it appears they could not get further, and they fell back five or six paces, and came to a charge bayonets. At that time, when they came to a charge bayonets, there was in the neighborhood of a dozen or two missiles thrown from the house. I only saw one stone among the lot. At that moment they commenced to fire. I was on the hill side.
Q. Was the crowd resisting the soldiers?
A. There was such an immense gathering there they could not get away—they had no chance to get away.
Q. Did the soldiers attempt to press them back at first?
A. They first came to carry arms—carrying their guns at the side of them—then they stepped back and came to a charge. Just at that point these missiles came from the little house, thrown by the boys.
Q. Did you hear any pistol shots?
A. Previous to that? No, sir; I did not.
Q. Did you hear any command to fire?
A. I didn't, sir. I was probably sixty yards above the railroad track. I could witness the movement of the troops, but could not hear any orders given. After the firing I immediately came down the hill the way I went up—took the same course. Came down past the soldiers, and went into the railroad buildings. I saw this soldier, who was carried off the ground before they had formed a square, and helped to bring him to.
Q. Who was there?
A. There was two men there—a reporter of one of the city papers.
Q. Do you know these men?
A. Only one of them.
Q. What was his name?
A. Mr. Rattigan. Him and I went in together. He is a reporter—used to be on the Pittsburgh Chronicle.
Q. What office was he carried to?
A. Telegraph office. The first floor in that building, Twenty-sixth street.
Q. Was there anybody in the room at the time besides these two men?
A. There were two other men attending him. One of them had a bandage around his head, and said he had got hit with a stone. He said he was not hurt very much. There was a small bandage around his forehead.
Q. You didn't know who gave the orders to fire?
A. No, sir. After the firing there was quite a …. raised. Some parties were excited over it—some of their friends being killed. It was quiet Thursday, Friday, and Saturday along the railroad. Had no trouble.
Q. How soon after the firing did you go down to this telegraph office?
A. The minute they commenced firing I saw dust flying pretty lively round me, and I started up the hill. I suppose I was three to five minutes going up and coming down. After the firing was done I came right down the hillside again—I came down the same course I went up.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You say a sick soldier was in the telegraph office?
A. In the room in the left of the building as you go in.
Q. Is that the telegraph office?
A. They call it a telegraph office, but it is not in that room.
Q. Train master's office?
A. I don't know whose office it is. They call it a telegraph office.
Q. The instruments are in the adjoining office?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could you see into the telegraph room?
A. I opened the door to look in.
Q. Anybody in?
A. No; the operator was working with this young man on the floor. He was having a spasm, stiffened up. They worked with him for probably ten minutes before he came to.
Q. He had a fit, didn't he?
A. A fit of some kind.
Q. That was fifteen minutes before the firing took place?
A. I came down the hill immediately after the firing took place, and went there to see these parties in the room.
Q. Did you see General Pearson on the ground just before the firing or during the time of the firing?
A. Didn't see him out after the troops went into the round-house; then I saw him in the yard, probably six o'clock in the evening—between five and six—I saw him in the yard.
Q. Did you see the officers in the hollow square?
A. I saw some, but could not recognize any of them.
Q. Do you know General Pearson?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Didn't see him?
A. No; didn't see him until the firing was all over.
Q. If General Pearson had been in the hollow square, wouldn't you have seen him?
A. My attention was not directly called to the officers. I was watching the movements of the men, and the minute these stones were thrown, my attention was called to that. In fact, I was not looking at the officers, I was watching the movements of the men. I suppose if I was looking for General Pearson, I could have picked him out from others. I have known him for a good many years.
Richard Hughes, sworn:
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What is your full name?
A. Richard Hughes.
Q. Where do you reside?
A. 2512 Carson street, south side, Twenty-fifth ward.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. I was on the police force.
Q. Were you on the police force on the 19th day of last July?
A. I was one of those suspended.
Q. Did you offer your services to the railroad officers on the 19th of July?
A. Yes; I went up to the Union depot, two or three parties along with me, ex-policemen, Thursday morning. Stayed there until about eleven o'clock. The first thing, I seen about ten or fifteen, or twenty policemen, with two or three detectives, walking through the Union depot. That drew my attention, and I followed them. George Crosby, and two or three other parties went back, and met Mr. Davis on Smithfield street, and he told us they wanted to see us at the office—wanted us to go out to the Union depot. We went down to the Union depot, and seven of us, with detective White, and taking a train between one and two o'clock from Union depot to the stock-yards, we went out—seven of us. Sam Leary, at East Liberty, he came in, too. Mr. Watt was along with us. There was two or three hundred people around there, and they told us to clear the track, they were going to start a train then. We went to move them off the track, so they did, and when the track was clear, they couldn't get engineers, firemen, or brakemen to take out the train. Stayed there until seven or eight o'clock that evening, and everything was quiet. The regular force came out about half-past six that evening, in full uniform, around the stock-yards. There was nothing going on there. We came on on Monday morning following. I came to town; went up to the Union depot. I saw two or three policemen, and asked who hired them, and they said Fox. I asked him if they wanted any more policemen, and he said he had plenty. I asked for Mr. Watt, the superintendent, and he told me he was at the round-house. He told me they wanted no more policemen. I asked him to pay me what he owed me, I want to leave town in the afternoon. He said he couldn't pay me, to go to the office. He told me he didn't want any more police. I went to Mr. Watt myself.
Q. Did you tell him the mayor had sent you?
A. I told him the mayor had ordered us out there. The day before that we wanted to know who was going to pay us. They told us the pay was all right. Clerk Davis asked me, why ain't you on duty, and I told him they didn't want me.
Q. Did you see anything of the fire that night?
A. No, sir; I left two o'clock Friday afternoon.
George W. Crosby, sworn:
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What is your full name?
A. George W. Crosby.
Q. Where do you reside?
A. No. 1117 Carson street, south side.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. Formerly a policeman and laborer.
Q. Were you on the police force on the 19th of July last?
A. No, sir. I was taken off on the reduction. The 11th or 12th of July the suspension took place.
Q. Did you offer your services to the railroad officials on Friday, the 20th?
A. Yes. I went to the Union depot on Friday, the 20th, between nine and ten o'clock. I met Mr. Fox, a police officer of the Pennsylvania railroad, offered my services to him, and he told me he didn't want any more. He had all the men he wanted, and mentioned the number of men he had.
Q. How many did he say he had?
A. I couldn't say positively. Three or four, or four or five. I couldn't swear to the exact number, but I know he mentioned it to me. He had all the men he wanted.
Q. You were not on duty on Thursday?
A. Yes; I was.
Q. Did you see anybody besides Mr. Fox?
A. At the Union depot?
Q. No, sir; that day—on Friday?
A. No, sir. I only offered my services to him.
Q. Did you see Mr. Watt, the superintendent, at any time?
A. I was in company with Mr. Hughes at the time he saw Mr. Watt, and I had nothing to say to Mr. Watt at all.
William J. White, sworn.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. City of Pittsburgh.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. On the detective force.
Q. Were you out at Torrens on Thursday, the 19th of July?
A. I was, sir.
Q. Will you be kind enough to state what occurred, and what efforts were made by the police force to disperse the crowd?
A. I will state that about the neighborhood of twelve o'clock on Thursday, the 19th of July, I met the chief's clerk, Mr. Davis, and he told me he wanted all the available police he could get, to go out on the railroad, there was a strike. I hunted around and got one or two, and going up Fifth avenue I met the mayor, and the mayor told me to go out and get all I could, and go to Twenty-eighth street. I went up to the depot, and got about six or seven men, besides myself, and took up some on my way—about seven men, I guess—and went to Twenty-eighth street, getting off the cars there; and Mr. Watt was with us, and he told us we had better go on to Torrens station. We got on the cars and went to Torrens station, and got off there. There was quite a crowd—I suppose seventy-five or one hundred strikers. Mr. Watt asked me to clear the tracks. I done so. Told the men to get off the tracks, and they all went off the tracks, and had no trouble or difficulty whatever. Stayed around there for a considerable time, and I think Mr. Gumbert, a gentleman connected with the dispatcher, came to me and said, "We are going to send a train out." Says I, "All right." Says he, "What I want you to do, is to get the men up the track, and see that nobody mounts the train." I told the men to scatter along, in different positions, on the track; that this train was going out, and see that nobody got on the train, and that the train went out. No person interfered whatever.
Q. What day was this?
A. Thursday, the 19th.
By Mr. Dewees:
Q. Was that a double-header?
A. I could not say. I suppose there was over twenty cars on it.
Q. Do you know whether there were two engines on it?
A. No, sir; there was only one engine.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. How long did you remain there?
A. I remained until seven o'clock in the evening.
Q. Any further effort made to run trains after that?
A. No, sir.
Q. Any threats made by any of the men when the train started? Was the engineer threatened by the crowd?
A. No; I talked to some and they said they did not wish to intimidate any person. They were talking to the engineer and fireman. There was no threats or violence while I was there.
Q. Were you at Twenty-eighth street during the firing on the troops?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know anything connected with the riots?
A. I was not up at Twenty-eighth street, from the fact that the rules at the mayor's office require that a man has a week in the office, and it was my week in the office, and Friday and Saturday I was in the office all day. Sunday, after dinner, I started out. Then I started to help the fire department, and do what I could in that way.
Q. You were at the office after the Thursday of that week?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. While there, did you hear any demand made on the mayor for a force of police?
A. I cannot say that I did. The mayor was a good deal confused about it. We had not the force, in fact. I think it was Friday or Saturday morning. I seen a party come down to the mayor, and go into the office, and ask for that—some warrants that should have been served—that they hand them over. I believe they were handed over to a young man that came there—some warrants issued, I think, for some of the head rioters.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Do you know anything about those warrants?
A. No, sir; I do not.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you see any one ask the mayor to go along up to the railroad, and see Mr. Cassatt or Pitcairn or anybody else?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you hear any conversation in the office by some men, in regard to the burning of all the railroad property, on Sunday?
A. I did not; no, sir. I was in the office until dinner time. There was a good deal of excitement around there. Citizens running in—and the mayor was doing all he could, under the circumstances.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Who was the man that demanded the warrants?
A. He was a young man. I could not tell.
James Scott, sworn.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What is your name?
A. James Scott.
Q. Where do you reside?
A. Ninth ward, Pittsburgh.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. I am a detective officer.
Q. Were you on the force at the time of the disturbance, in July?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you hear the mayor offer the services of the police force to the firemen to protect them, at any time during the fire on Saturday night or Sunday?
A. I will just state, as brief as I can. On Sunday morning I was sent by the chief to the Twelfth ward station to take charge of the telegraph office, and I met the mayor coming down. He asked me if I was going down. He told me to remain at the station there until I was relieved. In an hour and a half the mayor came back again in a buggy and asked if any squad of police had come up. He left his buggy there, and went to Twenty-eighth street. The station-house is at Twenty-sixth street. We went up street and came back again, and about the time we came back the squad of police was there. They brought in some prisoners. They had their arms full of goods. The mayor gave them orders to string along on Liberty street and protect the firemen, and arrest anybody that would interfere with them, and they started. I stood there all day, until seven o'clock in the evening.
Q. Do I understand you went with those men to Liberty street?
A. No, sir.
Q. You stayed at the station-house?
A. I stayed until I was relieved by the night captain. There were one hundred and fifteen men taken out. I think there are seven different station-houses that have a police wire in, and you have to have a man to attend to it; but in daylight they have none.
Q. There is no man left in the station-house at that time?
A. Nobody to do that. When we had the one hundred and sixteen men on, the lieutenant was always on duty more or less, and it was understood he could operate, and if there was anything wrong in the district, he could telegraph to head-quarters. We have one in East Liberty, one at Lawrenceville, one in the Twelfth ward, one at Centre avenue, one at the Fourteenth ward, and three on the south side. I came down in the evening at seven o'clock. Some parties threatened they would be around in the evening to burn the water-works, and the citizens of those two blocks surrounding that and edging on the Fort Wayne sheds considered if any of those places got started it would be liable to burn them out. I went down to the mayor's office and reported this danger, and I thought we ought to have a squad of police, fifteen or twenty. I reported to the chief and also to the mayor, and said I would start back and get together what citizens I could; and it was not an hour until there was twenty-five police there. We surrounded these water-works and stayed there until daylight.
Q. The morning of——
A. That was Sunday night at the time of the fire. During the night, about eleven o'clock, we smelled smoke at the far end of the Fort Wayne, and a couple of citizens, by the names of Moran and Reed, went down there and put it out. If it had got started there would have been quite a fire there.
Q. You are a detective, I understand?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you on duty on Thursday?
A. On duty on Thursday; yes, sir, on duty right along.
Q. Did you witness any of the occurrences?
A. No, sir; was not out there at any time. No orders to go out.
Q. You received no instructions about arresting these men. There was a warrant for some men who were supposed to be leaders?
A. There was a party detailed for that purpose.
Q. You were not in that party?
A. No, sir.
Q. Would it have been possible that night for these men to get hold of these parties—those officers that had the warrants? Were you out that night on duty?
A. Not that night—never off duty, you might say—we are always on duty.
Q. What I want to know is, whether these officers could have arrested these men they had warrants for?
A. I think it would have been almost an impossibility to have got them, unless they were got at their homes. To take them out of that crowd would take twice the force to get one or two men.
Q. You believe that with the force of the mayor, it would have been impossible to have taken these men?
A. To take these men right in the crowd, it would have been dangerous. I felt that way. I have had occasion to be where there was something like a riot at the bolt works, this same summer, and we had about twenty police there, and I suppose there was some fifteen hundred or two thousand men. We gave them to understand they could not pass into the gates, and they did not pass in, and it all passed quiet, and nobody hurt; but if we had fired one shot, I do not think we would have been of much use.
Q. As an experienced officer, you would not have made the arrest that night in that crowd?
A. Not in that crowd.
Q. Do you know whether there was any effort made to shadow these men—following them to their homes?
A. No, sir.
Charles L. Schriver, sworn:
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. Reside in Harrisburg.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. Locomotive fireman.
Q. Were you employed by the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?
A. I was.
Q. At the time of the strike on the 19th of July?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you there on Thursday?
A. I was there on Thursday morning.
Q. Be kind enough to state what occurred?
A. I got to the round-house, I guess, about eight o'clock; stayed in there awhile. I was reading a dispatch containing an account of the riot in Martinsburg to three or four other fireman and engineers. There was a man came into the round-house and said the brakemen were on a strike. So a couple of us went down to the yard, and the brakemen said down there that they were not going out on any double-headers. There was a fellow tried to make a coupling, and a man hit him with a link, and a little while after that they took out the same train with a yard engine. They couldn't get any long road engines out—nobody would go. I went home to dinner and came back. They tried to take out this double-header. They coupled engine 775 and 473, and it was an understood thing between the engineers and conductors, that any person could go out ahead and make a signal to stop, they would stop and get off. As soon as 775 went down the yard and got the train of thirty-six cars, and came up into the yard, and 473 coupled ahead and pulled her out, there was four or five policemen got on each engine, and John Major, he was on 473, and the engineer of 473, pulled her out. She made about two exhausts, and a fellow got ahead on the track and threw up his hands. That stopped her. He reversed, and got off. Then the road foreman and civil engineer took the train back into the yard and ran the engines up to the round-house. I went home to supper that evening, and was going to Allegheny, and parties said, "You better stay around here at Twenty-eighth street." It was all very quiet. There was no disturbance or anything. About twelve o'clock, somebody says, there was a kind of collision in the crowd. Right at Twenty-eighth street, about three feet on to Twenty-eighth street, there was a car that they used in loading cinders, and directly a man stepped up—it was Sheriff Fife—and commenced talking, and said we had better go home, and leave the company do as they please. It was only making the thing worse. The company would come out ahead anyhow, and it was no use kicking about it. General Pearson and Davy Watt was along, and, I guess, they talked in the neighborhood of ten minutes, perhaps, and some person went to General Pearson, and asked him about the case of McCall, who had been arrested. Pearson said if they would be down at the lockup with all their witnesses, he would defend them, and would not want any money for it. They thought that was a magnificent offer of General Pearson, and they would accept it, and I do not know whether they went down or not. I went home—the sheriff was there—and went to bed and got up about six o'clock, went down street; bought a paper to read an account of the strike, and went down town; and going down, there was one hundred cars of stock that had come to Twenty-fifth street, and asked for them to have two engines, and some parties volunteered in the crowd that they could have a dozen if they wanted. I went down to the depot about nine o'clock, and the engineer requested me to fire one of these trains to East Liberty. I fired up twice for him. The first trip they had put up this proclamation purporting to be the Governor's. I read it myself. There was three of them, I believe, posted up round there somewhere. This was about eleven o'clock. There was nothing further occurred of any importance there that night. I heard of the First division being called out. Knew of the other troops being called out—I heard of it about eleven o'clock. The First division was called out, and was coming here at about two o'clock. I heard about the shooting in Baltimore, and was told that they came to do the same thing here. I stayed there until General Pearson came. I was acquainted with General Brown. Talked to Major McDonald, he said his men could not fire, that his men had no ammunition.
Q. Who told you that?
A. Major McDonald, of the Fourteenth regiment. I talked to General Pearson a while, and he got up and said there was no damn use of the boys going around there, he was going out with a double-header, and was going to ride on the pilot. Some of the boys allowed that he was not. I stayed there until ten o'clock, and I knew the Philadelphia troops ought to be there pretty soon. I left and went home; went to bed. I slept then until evening, and didn't know anything about the shooting, until I was awaked up about six o'clock. I went up to Twenty-eighth street. Didn't see any dead men. Seen some blood around. Stayed around Twenty-eighth street and Penn, and saw parties marching out with guns, flags, drums, &c. Went home and slept until half-past three o'clock that morning. I got awake by seeing the fire out of my bed. Waited until daylight. As I got to the Twelfth ward lockup the black maria came. They took down a whole gang for stealing up there that night. Just as I crossed Twenty-sixth street, an engineer of the road says, "The Philadelphia troops fired at us." I got up to Twenty-eighth street again, and was told they were going to leave the round-house. I stayed there at the corner of Twenty-eighth and Liberty, and I saw them marching down Twenty-fifth street. Then I stayed at Twenty eighth street until they passed. I saw they had all their arms cocked, and ready to fire.
Q. Did you see anybody fire?
A. No, sir. I went up to the hospital grounds with a lady friend of mine, stayed around Twenty-eighth street. She thought it would be the least danger. As soon as they got to Thirty-third street, I heard a volley. I guess it must have been a hundred pieces went off.
Q. You said it was understood that if any man came in front of the engines, any engineers and firemen were all to get off?
A. It was an understood thing between the crew of this train. The conductor, by the name of Franze—he formerly run from Pittsburgh to Connemaugh, and then from Derry to Altoona. He came from Johnstown that morning. He didn't want to go out, and he came to where there was a crowd standing, and he said if any person would tell me not to turn the switch, I wouldn't do it. He only wanted an excuse not to go out. He wanted to keep himself solid with the company, and keep his job. He went down to the transfer, and coupled up thirty-six cars, and Woodward, the engineer of 473, he said the same. All he wanted was some one to go and signal to stop, and then they would have an excuse that they couldn't go out. They would be solid with the company and men also. When they coupled these engines, 473 and 775, a man by the name of David Davis, he was the first man to swing, and they understood what he wanted, and he reversed, and stopped. That is what I say, it was an understood thing between the crowd and that train crew.
Q. Was there any understanding among the men generally?
A. No; there was no understanding among the men generally. I think every person said they wouldn't go out on double-headers.
Q. They had all agreed on that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What were the causes leading to the strike?
A. When the reduction become known it was decided on a strike. Then there was to be a strike, and they sent a committee of engineers to see Mr. Scott; but they couldn't get any satisfaction. I understood then that the 27th, I believe, was set for another strike, and that fell through; but this strike, it was not a pre-arranged thing, until it was known, until the first eight-forty train that morning. When I came to the round-house—everything was double-headers. On Monday there had been an order posted on the telegraph that all trains were double-headers, and a new line would ran to Altoona. That would have taken a great deal of work from some men. There would be a good many discharged. They suspended two or three of their oldest engineers. Every man refused to give up. They all talked of it, and went on with the strike, all the other roads striking. On Friday a telegram came from the Erie that all of them were on a strike.
Q. Telegraph came from the Erie?
A. Came from Hornersville, New York.
Q. To the Trainmen's Union.
A. It come to the master of the Firemen's Brotherhood of this division?
Q. It was an understood thing they were going to strike on Friday?
A. No, sir; you misunderstood me. It was an understood thing that a strike was to occur on the 19th of July, but after the Baltimore and Ohio went out first, and then, when the men on the Pennsylvania struck, then the rest of them followed suit. The Fort Wayne, Pan Handle, and all over the country, all followed after the B. and 0. and Pennsylvania.
Q. That was not double-headers?
A. The rest of them followed—that was going against their ten per cent.
Q. What was the cause?
A. The ten per cent. and abuse and double-headers was the main cause of the strike. If a man didn't make himself solid with these petty officials, they were abused.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was it understood that there was to be a strike all over the country when the Pennsylvania Central men struck?
A. No; as far as I know I don't think it was. After the Pennsylvania went out, the other men had their cause to strike, too, and they followed suit, right after the Pennsylvania, because they had the two big trunk lines striking, and these other little roads, that they would follow suit.
Q. You were speaking of the Firemen's Brotherhood. Is that the same thing as the Trainmen's Union?
A. It is just the same as the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers.
Q. That is separate from the Trainmen's Union?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you a member of the Firemen's Brotherhood?
A. No, sir; I don't belong.
Q. A member of the Trainmen's Union.
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you a member of any organization?
A. No, sir; I attended one meeting the firemen had. Engineers had their meeting, and firemen had their meeting, and trainmen had their meeting.
Q. Do you know whether there was a man selected to start this strike in any way?
A. To tell the truth, there was not one man in Pittsburgh knew this strike was to occur on the 19th of July.
Q. You believe the first man that left the train——
A. Was the cause of the rest following. This Rye, one of the men you had before you, his crew was to go out that morning at eight-forty. That would have been the second double-header on the road. Of course, there was a good many double-headers run over it, but it was to be general. There was to be no single trains. When his crew said they were not going out, we might as well quit this, as to be discharged after a while, then the rest of the men coming in, they would not go out, then, because the first fellows refused to go out on double-headers. If a man would have wanted to go out, he could have. There was nothing to prevent him, if he had a little courage.
Q. There would have been no bodily injury?
A. No, sir; if I had wanted to go out, I could have gone out or anything else. The strike was conducted by intimidation.
Q. I understand you one fellow got struck with a link?
A. That was done by a party who was not really responsible for what he was doing. He was a little the worse for his beer, or he would not have done it.
Q. We had testimony that links and pins were thrown at engineers on their engines—did you see anything of that kind?
A. There was one link thrown at this man that went to couple the caboose to the engines on the Thursday morning, and he had no business to couple a caboose, or they wouldn't have thrown any link. He belonged down to the transfer, and was not a long road man.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Every fellow has his work, and if he undertakes to do anything else, they don't allow him?
A. Just as affairs stood then, they didn't allow it. There was no threat made. Another fireman and me sat down on a track and talked to some of them—asked what they were going to do. They said nothing; only we are not going out on double-headers.
Q. How did they come and take possession of the switches, and stop trains from running?
A. They didn't stop any; they didn't have any men to go out with them. A good many men deny that they had anything to do with the strike, but they had at that time. They wanted their ten per cent. as much as anybody.
Q. Had the order cut their wages down below what they could have lived on, or could the men make fair wages enough to live on?
A. If the strike had not taken place that morning, there would have been twelve engineers to go off, about ten firemen, and forty trainmen, conductors, brakemen, and flagmen—that would have been fifty or sixty men. It would have been only a week or so until they would have run everything to Altoona, and that would have thrown out the east end of the division, and then there would be nothing left for the strikers at all, only when freight was a little heavy they would not have made anything. A man never made much money unless freights were very good, and he is running all the time, and is half dead—then he can make money. That is in regard to firemen or brakemen; of course engineers, with their big wages, they can make money.
Q. Was it your object, as strikers, to compel the railroad company to employ more men than they really needed?
A. The object of the strike was to do away with double-headers and get their ten per cent. back, if they could. If Mr. Watt would have come up there that morning and said, all right, let them run single trains, the thing would have been over in half a minute. No; they wouldn't do that. They didn't think about their ten per cent. that morning. All it was about was double-headers. After the strike was prolonged, then the ten per cent. was more thought of.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. You informed the masters of those lodges that there was a strike here in Pennsylvania, on the Pennsylvania, and he telegraphed back that there would be strikes on all the roads?
A. No, sir.
Q. What was it?
A. There was a telegram came from Hornersville, on the Erie road, from a man by the name of Donahue, to the master of this division of the Firemen's Brotherhood, stating that they were all out, and wished the Pennsylvania railroad men success. I believe that was it.
Q. Was there any understanding among the men that they were safe here, in Pittsburgh, to strike, and not to be molested, and they wouldn't be if they were Philadelphia men?
A. No, sir.
Q. In other words, that if the Philadelphia men came here they had no sympathy with the strikers, and they would be apt to attempt to run trains out, and take possession of the tracks?
A. No, sir; I have never heard anything of that.
Q. You don't know that this point was selected, then?
A. No, sir; it was only accidental the strike came about, and it was through the double-headers. If the strike would have been to occur that day, every body would have known it.
Q. Are you working now?
A. No, sir.
Q. Discharged?
A. No; I never was discharged. I asked for my time twice, and it was refused me, and I never went to work one day. I went down to Pitcairn's office to get a letter of recommendation—I wanted to go on some other road—and all the letter he would give me was a note saying he discharged me on account of reduction of force.
Officer White, re-called:
By Senator Reyburn: