MORNING SESSION.
Pittsburgh, Friday, February 22, 1878.
The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at ten o'clock. Mr. Lindsey in the chair. All members present.
Mayor W. C. McCarthy, affirmed:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where is your residence?
A. My residence is 95, Robert street, Eleventh ward.
Q. What official position did you hold in this city last July?
A. I was mayor of the city.
Q. How long had you occupied that position?
A. Since the 1st day of February, 1875—the last time—I occupied it before.
Q. When did you first learn of any disturbance at the Pennsylvania railroad?
A. On Thursday, the 19th of July, in the forenoon.
Q. About what time?
A. That I am not able to say, but I suppose it was in the early forenoon.
Q. How did you learn of the fact?
A. Mr. Watt came to me in the mayor's office, asking me if I could furnish him with ten men. I told him no. By and by—before I come to that, I will give you the police force and the disposition of it. Every person connected with the police force consisted entirely of one hundred and twenty, having a supervision over twenty-seven square miles. Five of them were simply lamp watchmen, leaving one hundred and fifteen policemen. They were divided as follows: One captain, one chief, two turn-keys at the central station, eight station-house keepers, eight front office men. These eight men were all the men we had in daylight, all told, the rest were put on night duty. One night watchman at the city hall, two roundsmen. These roundsmen are men who perambulate the whole city, for the purpose of having an eye to the different police, that they were attending to their duty, and we had one corner man—a man stationed at the corner of Fifth avenue and Smithfield street—and nine lieutenants, and eighty-two patrolmen. These eighty-two patrolmen are men whose metes and bounds were set out to travel. We had one hundred and fifteen police of all kinds, classes, and individuals.
Q. How much ground was covered by each one of these patrolmen?
A. Some less and some more, if you knew the city I think you would know it. Well, take for instance, starting at the corner of Fourth avenue and Smithfield street, go following the cars down to the river; downwards, go down Fourth avenue in that direction and you cross Wood street, and you cross Market street, and you come to Ferry street, then you go along Ferry street, which may be called the lower end of town, to Second, then you reverse and come up this way, you come to Smithfield street, and you walk up to the corner of Fourth avenue and Smithfield street, the place of beginning, a route that really would be too much for two men, one man had to do it.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. How much ground would a man have to cover taking in all the side streets?
A. He would have to cover six squares, and extraordinarily large squares at that, and I think that it would take him over twenty minutes to rapidly walk it.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. These police were night watchmen then all of them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you before that had any day police?
A. Oh, yes. Previous to that, altogether the whole police force of policemen, including ten lamp-watchmen, consisted of two hundred and twenty-six men, and in consequence of the heavy taxation, and the absolute inability of the treasurer to pay for the policemen, they were compelled to cut it down one hundred and eleven men, or rather one hundred and sixteen men altogether—I am talking about policemen, I leave the lamp watchmen out—and then there was a deficiency of sixteen to eighteen thousand dollars for the year.
Q. When was that done?
A. That was done on the 1st of July, or thereabouts, maybe a little before that.
Q. You may state what occurred when Mr. Watt came to your office, on Thursday, the 19th?
A. Mr. Watt came and stated that he wanted ten men. I told him I couldn't furnish him ten men. I would furnish him with what we could, but if he would pay for them, we could pick up some of those discharged policemen who were not employed, and he very promptly answered that he would pay for them. So I told Detective McGovern and some others to take what they could, and all our own men, and fill up with the idle policemen, and that the policemen would be paid by Mr. Watt. Mr. Watt requested me to go up with them, which I declined to do. I couldn't see any reason why the mayor of the city of Pittsburgh should go to the Pennsylvania depot to take cognizance of a disturbance that only required ten men, in his own opinion, and I sent a very faithful and one of the best officers in charge of the men, Detective McGovern, a very clear-headed man.
Q. What did he say as to the extent of the disturbance up there?
A. He made no remarks about that.
Q. Did you ask him anything about it?
A. No, sir. Gave him what he asked for.
Q. Was any report made to you by Officer McGovern.
A. Oh, yes. We had reports all the time from that until this morning. Officer McGovern reported to me—I cannot say whether it was McGovern, or who it was—but the first intimation I had of any violence was a report come to me that a man by the name of McCall had struck Mr. Watt; that he was arrested and taken to the station-house by the police. Then I heard afterwards from this time out—what I have got to say about Thursday will be hearsay. You can produce evidence and substantiate whatever I may say—I heard there was a train somewhere about three o'clock to go out, and the police aboard the train told the engineer they would protect him. The track was clear, and the engineer refused to go on, and got down and left the engine in the possession of the police.
Q. What police was on the train?
A. That was in the afternoon.
Q. What police was on the train?
A. I cannot exactly tell you, but I think that Mr. Motts, Mr. Coulson, and some others were there.
Q. How did you obtain this information?
A. From the police.
Q. An official report from the police?
A. Oh, no. We didn't have that much red tape about these things. The only red tape we had was the morning report of the different lieutenants. I can produce the men; I suppose you will want them to verify it.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. They would report to the lieutenant would they?
A. No; they were in charge of Mr. Watt. The truth is, these men are under the control of the officers of the Pennsylvania railroad, and I felt it my duty to send as many men as I could there, who were paid by the city, and the others had to be paid by the railroad company, as I told you, but all the men we had in July was nine men.
Q. Did you send any of those nine men?
A. Oh, yes; McGovern and White and some more of them—I am a little mixed; and there was another order given for men as I understand. I started Mr. Davis to get them, but on that I am not so clear—I am a little mixed on that; Mr. Davis, however, can tell. He told me he met me on Fifth avenue and told me an order had come for more men, and I started then from Fifth avenue to get them.
Q. Did you receive any word from Mr. Watt after he left you with the ten police?
A. Directly from Mr. Watt?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No; not a word.
Q. Did you receive any telegram from him calling for fifteen more men or twenty-five more men?
A. I didn't receive anything of the kind; but I guess that must be the word Mr. Davis speaks about when he says he met me on Fifth avenue, and I told him to get the men.
Q. Didn't your clerks or any of your subordinates notify you that such a telegram had been received from Mr. Watt?
A. I don't know what Mr. Davis says he told me on Fifth avenue.
Q. For fifty men?
A. No, sir; I took supper at Castle Shannon. I left at a quarter to five, and came back at eight, and then there were some persons from the Pennsylvania had been there for policemen, and the Pennsylvania railroad got all the policemen they wanted. They got so many that they sent back word that they did not want any more.
Q. Did they send any such word to you personally?
A. No; I can prove it.
Q. I want just what they said about—the next that took place between you and the officers?
A. I got no communication directly from the officers of the Pennsylvania, from the time Mr. Watt had been there in the forenoon.
Q. Did you receive any telegram from Mr. Watt calling for fifty police?
A. I didn't.
Q. Were you notified by your clerks or subordinates that such a telegram had been received at your office?
A. Not in the shape you put it.
Q. Did you see Mr. Watt after he left with the ten men?
A. No, sir; I don't think that I did. I have no recollection of it whatever. I don't believe I did.
Q. Where were you from eight o'clock Thursday night, during the balance of the night?
A. I was at the office, and in the neighborhood.
Q. Were any reports made to you during the night, from the policemen?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In regard to the situation?
A. Yes; that everything was quiet.
Q. From what men?
A. I cannot name them, but I can bring the men here who were there to testify. Let me tell you what the police told me—the men that were out there.
Q. It is hearsay evidence. I think it is hardly proper?
A. Hear my statement, then, for your own guidance.
Q. I understand you to say that you didn't receive any dispatch from Mr. Watt, calling for fifty men, nor it was not communicated about in that form?
A. No, sir; it was not. Nothing of that kind occurred. He may have sent a dispatch, but I think I can very conscientiously affirm that I never saw it.
Q. Do you allow your clerks to act upon intelligence received at the office, without instructions from you?
A. Most undoubtedly. When I am away a riot or disturbance ought not to be going along until I come back. They know the general rules I act upon.
Q. Communications, in the shape of letters and dispatches, are they placed on file in your office, when received in your absence?
A. No, sir; not placed on file at any time. They are attended to and thrown away.
Q. Attended to by your clerks?
A. Yes; the chief of police and the clerks. If I am up in the Eleventh ward, they would have to wait an hour and a half until I got down.
Q. If a dispatch was received at your office, notifying you of a disturbance in one part of the city, and you are in another part of the city?
A. It would be attended to.
Q. It would be attended to without notifying you of the fact?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have telegraphic communications to all parts of the city, I suppose—stations?
A. With the station-house. We have got one station-house in the Thirty-sixth ward, Thirtieth ward, one in the Twenty-first, and one in the Second, or rather the telegraph is in the Third, one in the Eleventh, one in the Twelfth, and one in the Fourteenth, one in the Seventeenth, and one in the Nineteenth.
Q. Did you receive any reports during the night—Thursday night?
A. Yes; and everything was quiet.
Q. What officer had charge of that part of the city near Twenty-eighth street—what police officer?
A. Lieutenant Coates had.
Q. Did you receive any reports from him during the night?
A. I do not know that I did.
Q. Were there any affidavits made before you against parties—against any disorderly conduct?
A. There was on Friday forenoon.
Q. Did you issue warrants for that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. For how many?
A. Well, I guess there was eight or nine, maybe more—I have forgotten.
Q. In whose hands were those warrants placed to execute?
A. I cannot tell distinctly, but I think it was in the hands of Mr. McGovern.
Q. Did he execute the warrants? What instructions did you give him about that?
A. I told him that in consequence of the calling out of the soldiers that the public mind excited, and it would be very dangerous to act as we usually acted, and for him to be exceedingly cautious, and cause no disturbance.
Q. When you placed the warrants in his hands, what instructions did you give him?
A. That is what I gave him.
Q. Had the soldiers been called out?
A. Yes; I was perfectly astonished when I took up the newspapers. Here was a whole lot of telegraphic dispatches, that had been flying from one end of the State to the other.
Q. On Thursday morning or Friday morning?
A. On Friday morning.
Q. You did not tell him to make the arrests?
A. Absolutely?
Q. Yes?
A. No, sir; I knew too much for that. The policemen at any time create a riot in the street by going at it brashly, and after the soldiers were in it, I thought it very dangerous.
Q. Why?
A. Because they were under the control of men who were rather of the narrow gauge pattern, about 2×3.
They were men who knew no law but the law of force, and had no knowledge that truculent defiance always begets truculent defiance. Had the force been in the hands of men who thought with Coleridge, when he said:
"He prayeth well who loveth well, Both man, and bird, and beast."
Had it been in the hands of men, who had any idea like Coleridge, there would not have been a life lost, nor a dollar of property destroyed, in my deliberate opinion.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You speak of those two or three, do you allude to the military now?
A. I allude to the men assuming charge—that had control of the force after I was displaced by the military and counsel.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you not have charge of these in the beginning of the riot or disturbance?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. Because Mr. Watt came over and asked for ten men, and they were given to him.
Q. He asked you to go out, didn't he?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You refused?
A. I did, for the reason that I could see no reason from anything he said that the mayor should start out to take charge of ten men, and control it—it must have been a very small affair.
Q. You received notice that another call had been made by Mr. Watt, didn't you?
A. No, sir; I have reason to believe, from what I heard—that Mr. Davis informs me—that I told him to go ahead and send them.
Q. Didn't Mr. Watt inform you that your presence could do a good deal towards quelling the disturbance there?
A. Not that I can remember.
Q. Would not it have had that effect, in your opinion?
A. Indeed, I do not know. I think a disturbance that in Mr. Watt's opinion only required ten men, didn't require the city to go there in the person of the mayor, because it was a very slight affair, as he represented it—it made no impression upon me.
Q. A man, such as Mr. Coleridge described in that quotation you have made, would have had that effect?
A. No, sir; he would have been called upon, and if he had been asked to call for troops, it would have come in. Let me say about calling for troops, that if Mr. Mackey and Mr. Hartranft—but I should say Governor Hartranft and Mr. Mackey—had been in Harrisburg, there would not have been a troop brought here, and peace would have been preserved, but, unfortunately, neither of these two gentlemen were there. Let me tell you, sir, we had a puddler's strike here, and that I had some hand in, and the peace of the city was preserved; and notwithstanding the peace of the city was preserved all the time, some person, I don't know who, sent a request to the Governor for troops, that the peace of the city was disturbed and it could not be preserved. Mr. Hartranft did not know what to do, so he sent for Mr. Mackey. Mr. Mackey came to him and told him, says he, "Wait a few minutes, and I will let you know what to do." Mr. Mackey told him——
Q. Are you testifying to facts within your knowledge?
A. Within my knowledge. Mr. Mackey telegraphed to a gentlemen that I know very well, as to what the condition of affairs was. The gentleman telegraphed back that it was idle and futile to send soldiers here, and it would only create a disturbance. They could keep them away. They were kept away, and there was not a man killed, and not a dollar's worth of property destroyed.
Q. When was that?
A. It was two years ago.
Q. You say that you acted in attempting to keep and preserve the peace here and keep down violence until superseded by the military?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is not the military always in subjection to the civil authorities?
A. The Constitution says so, but the facts of the case are otherwise.
Q. Had you not entire authority and control, at all times, within the limits and jurisdiction of the city?
A. Not when the sheriff comes to the front. He is the chief peace officer of the county, and has the whole county at his beck and nod. The mayor is simply the city.
Q. Is not it the duty of other head officers to coöperate with the sheriff?
A. That depends upon circumstances. I could not coöperate with the sheriff, because the matter was under control of men who were acting entirely different from any way that I would have acted in the case, and I could not assume responsibility in a state of facts that I believe would lead to what was the ultimate result.
Q. Is not your power as magistrate, within the city limits, identical with those of the sheriff?
A. They are.
Q. What hindered you from acting then?
A. Because the sheriff took possession of the case, and called upon the troops. Had the sheriff come to consult me, instead of going to the Pennsylvania Railroad Company's office, and assumed control in calling for troops, the result would have been different. But I was thrown aside. I didn't suit.
Q. You were asked to go up to the scene of the disturbance, were you not?
A. No, sir.
Q. Didn't Mr. Watt ask you?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Did he at ten o'clock, on Thursday, ask you to go to the scene of the disturbance?
A. He did.
Q. And you refused to go?
A. Yes, for the reason that I told you, that he asked for ten men, and I knew no reason—when he got all the men he asked for, and it was only ten men—I didn't see any reason why the mayor should go up there.
Q. Did you go up to the scene of the disturbance at any time during Friday?
A. No, sir.
Q. Friday night?
A. No, sir.
Q. Saturday?
A. No, sir.
Q. Saturday night?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At what time?
A. Well, I think when I got out there, it must have been ten o'clock.
Q. What did you find there?
A. I found a howling mob, many of them armed.
Q. Did you know that this firing was going on all this time between ten o'clock Thursday and ten o'clock Saturday night, when you went to the scene of the disturbance?
A. I knew nothing of the disturbance at all. I heard that the soldiers had fired upon the crowd.
Q. You knew that there were crowds there, didn't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You knew they prevented freights from running?
A. I did not.
Q. You know that they prevented freight trains from going out?
A. No, sir; I believe the fact is otherwise. I believe the fact is that after the police got possession of a train, on Thursday afternoon, that the engineer deserted, and that the Pennsylvania Railroad Company didn't attempt to put another freight out—that is what I heard.
Q. That is hearsay, isn't it?
A. That is, and I guess it is very true, too.
Q. You had come out then to see?
A. No, sir; I didn't.
Q. On Friday, did you increase your police force any?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you increase them any on Friday night?
A. No, sir.
Q. On Saturday?
A. No, sir.
Q. Saturday night?
A. Saturday night, when we heard of the shooting I directed the officers to go round and inform the proprietors of the gun shops of what had taken place, and to put themselves in a state of defense, and to get their arms out of the road; for they might be assailed, and directed the chief of police to insert an advertisement in the Sunday papers, calling upon the discharged policemen to appear at the mayor's office for duty. My idea of that was that there might be a necessity for these men performing police duty in the streets. I had no idea, until at that time, that where the city and county authorities had a thousand men under their command, in the Twelfth ward, that any policemen would be required or needed on the property of the Pennsylvania railroad, but I did think there would be very great excitement, and it would be necessary to have a force on the streets, not knowing what would happen, and I directed a call to be made for an immediate meeting of the police committee, on Sunday morning.
Q. Were the day force placed back on duty on Sunday morning?
A. Let me go on, as nigh as I can, in a chronological order of events. My mind, as to hours, after I got in the Twelfth ward and saw the state of affairs there, is a blank. I could not give you an hour from that time up to Monday morning, but I was on deck all that time. I went up to the Twelfth ward, saw a crowd there, and mixed in among them. Had a talk with quite a number of them, and tried to dissuade them from acts of violence and disorder, but I was talking to a lot of crazy men. Words were nowhere. Somewhere, as nigh as I can guess, I was in front of the Twelfth ward station-house, immediately above Twenty-sixth street or Penn avenue, and I was too late. It struck me then that there must be some cars set on fire. I left there and went up to the corner of Liberty and Twenty-fifth street, and saw a car on fire immediately above Twenty-fifth street. I looked at the situation, and turned back to the corner of Twenty-eighth and Penn streets, and I there met a policeman, who I think was Mr. Scribner. Says I, "Has the box been pulled?" Says he, "No; the crowd won't let us, but the alarm has been sent down to the police telegraph." I then waited there a very, very long time, expecting the fire department to come. When I stayed there long enough, and hearing nothing of the fire department, I came to the conclusion that the message sent by the police telegraph had failed. By this time Alderman Barclay was along side of a police officer, and a large man, whom I knew by sight, but not by name, and I said to the alderman, says I, "Can't we send an alarm in on this box." The alderman said, "We can try it." He went, I think, into the drug store and got a key, and four of us went to the box, and nobody interfered with us—there were very few up at that corner, and the alderman opened the box, and this man, I believe, he pulled it. We waited another long time—a very long time—and heard nothing of the fire department. Then I began to make inquiries, and I ascertained that a portion of the fire department had come up Penn avenue, and for reasons satisfactory to themselves, had stopped immediately below the Independence engine house, on Penn avenue, somewhere about Twenty-first or Twentieth street—I cannot give you the number—and that they had been stopped there, and were afraid to go on. I do not know what reason they had—they had some reason. I then went to the station-house; but, by the by, I may say here, when I left the lower end of the city the mob was still going through the streets, and I should have stated before, chronologically—what I forgot—that I issued orders by telegraph, and the men met at eight o'clock in the evening, at the station-house, after having lit the lamps.
Q. Saturday evening?
A. Saturday evening. I ordered all the policemen from the first, second, fourth, seventh, eighth, ninth districts, to leave their station-houses, and to come at once to the central station, as soon as the men would come to the station-house. These men came between eight and nine o'clock, most of them nine o'clock, may be later. Some of them had to walk a distance of two miles, and they were put on duty immediately through the streets, and when I thought that I could leave things safely to the direction of the police, I went to the Twelfth ward to see how things were standing. That was the position of matters. When I found that the fire department had not or could not come, I went to the station-house—the Twelfth ward station-house—and telegraphed down to the central station to send up all the police that could be spared. That was done, and as these policemen came up, two or three or four or five or six, &c.—there was a great quantity of stealing going on.
Q. How many policemen came up?
A. I will get at that in a few minutes. As they came there was a great deal of stealing going on, and as fast as they came to the station-house, I started them out on to Penn street, to arrest the people that were carrying off goods. They continued at that work until such times as I thought I had enough policemen to assist the firemen, at which time possibly I may have had fifty or sixty, may be forty. I do not suppose I had over forty or fifty. When I thought I had enough to protect the firemen, I told officer Coulston to go to the fire department and tell them that we now had police sufficient, I thought, to protect them, and to come on, and we would do the best we could. Coulston started off with that message. After a lapse of sufficient time he came back and told me he had informed the parties in charge, of my message, that they replied to them that they would not move until they were ordered by the chief of the fire department and the fire commissioners, and I supposed, that at that time I may have had, all told, fifty or sixty—about fifty policemen—the fifth district and the sixth district had not been called in. The fifth district and the Lawrenceville district immediately adjoining the point where the Allegheny Valley railroad runs through, they were not called in because I supposed they would have as much to do in their own districts. The sixth district was not called in because Torrens station and the stock-yards were in that district, and I thought it altogether likely that the police of these two districts would be wanted to take care of things there for the reason I have given you.
Q. How long did you keep those policemen there in the Twelfth ward?
A. They were kept there until their regular time of going on duty.
Q. What time was that?
A. Well, the regular time was six o'clock, but they were there long after that.
Q. Sunday morning?
A. Yes, sir. I will tell you about that. I stayed up there until somewhere in the neighborhood of daylight. The soldiers, I had supposed, that had taken refuge in the houses there, that their strategy was to stay until daylight would come, and then they would come out upon the railroad track and take possession. That is what I supposed—nobody communicated to me what they would do.
Q. Did you make any effort to communicate with General Brinton or General Pearson?
A. No, sir; I did not. I thought those gentlemen had the matter in their own hands, and didn't want any advice from me; and about daylight, or thereabouts, I came down town, and somewhere in the neighborhood of seven o'clock, or thereabouts, it might have been a little after seven—might have been half an hour, but I just name that at random, approximate it—I received a telegraphic dispatch from the Twelfth ward station that the soldiers were on Penn avenue, marching past the Twelfth ward station-house. That struck me that it was an admirable strategic movement. I thought they had come off the railroad property with their full strength, five hundred or six hundred strong, to march through the streets, to intimidate the crowd, and I was highly delighted at that idea, and I requested Mr. Davis to go and get a buggy that we might go up and witness the effect of it. He came with the buggy, and we both started out, and after we got a considerable distance up town, in the neighborhood of the Twelfth ward, I received information that these men were retreating from the city—six hundred armed men. It sent my heart down about my thighs. I could not understand it. I could not believe it. Then the idea struck me that these men were not retreating from the city, but they were following a line of march by which they had two roads to go to East Liberty. I thought they were going either one of those two roads to join the forces out there, and possibly to come in together. When I got as far as the car stables, in Lawrenceville, just about Forty-second street, I think, I bethought myself it was hardly worth while to make that horse pull two hundred and ten pounds unnecessarily, and I stopped the buggy and got out. I told Mr. Davis to go on after the troops, and not to return until he knew where they had gone to. They might have gone by Stanton avenue to East Liberty, from the upper side of the cemetery, or they might have gone by the Morning side road up to the Sharpsburg bridge. I told him to go on, and not give it up until he could locate them, and then to come back to the Twelfth ward station-house, and report to me, and I then got in a street car at the car stables and came down to the Twelfth ward station-house. Then I telegraphed down to the central station to detain all the police that were there, and send them to the Twelfth ward, and I got tired waiting on Mr. Davis, and knowing that the police committee was to meet, I went over to where the firemen were at work, for the purpose of seeing the chief engineer, and concert with him some plan of action by which I could assist them. I could not find the chief engineer, high nor low. I asked the firemen where he was, and they didn't know, and I took that the work upon the fire—this was not on the railroad property, but on the opposite side of Liberty street where they were at work. I thought the work was ineffective, and I spoke to the firemen about it, and they told me the reason of it was that the water in the basin was low. I thought that a little strange, because it was a rule with the water department, with which I had been connected a great many years, to always have it full on Sunday, but I determined to see about that. Failing to see the chief engineer, I could not waste my time in hunting him, and I came down town. On my way down, I met the superintendent of the water-works, and I says to him, "Jim, the firemen complain they cannot work effectively up in the Twelfth ward, because there is no water in the basin," I think that is the way I put it to him. Says he "I think they are mistaken; the basin is full of water." I think it was at Eleventh street I met him. I came down to the central station, and, on the pavement, I met the secretary of the fire commission, Mr. Case. I says to him, "Frank, the firemen tell me that there is no water in the basin"—I meant a small quantity of water in the basin—"I saw Jim Atkinson on my way down, and he tells me the basin is full. You take my buggy at once, and go up and tell them that the basin is full, that they need not be afraid of the supply of water, and you leave the buggy at Rosewell's stables." He departed, and I suppose gave my message.
Q. What time did the fire commence on Saturday night?
A. It is a guess with me, but I think it must have been about eleven o'clock. I don't think I am far wrong.
Q. You stayed there during the night?
A. Yes; I was going through the crowd during the whole night.
Q. When you got fifty policemen, did you make any effort with those policemen to drive the crowd from the cars that were burning?
A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. Your efforts were simply confined to arresting men that were carrying off plunder?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your policemen armed?
A. Some are and some are not.
Q. They are all armed with maces, I suppose?
A. Yes; they all have maces.
Q. Why didn't you make some effort to stop the burning?
A. Because, in my judgment, it could not be done.
Q. How many men would it have taken to have stopped that that night?
A. Lord knows! I can't tell. I think it would have taken a good many. Near a thousand men cooped themselves up in some houses, and cooped all those men up in those houses after having done the firing. It was yielding to the mob. It was just saying plainly, that the mob was stronger than the soldiers, and that forty or fifty policemen, who had never been in a disturbance of this nature or kind, would simply have been suicidal?
Q. After coming to the central station, Sunday morning, did you return again?
A. Yes, sir; I did.
Q. What hour?
A. That I could not tell you. As I told you before, I took no note of time. It was after I had seen the police committee, and had talked with some of the citizens, with regard to a citizens' meeting, I went up on.
Q. During the day, on Sunday, how many policemen had you in the vicinity of the riot?
A. That I can't tell. I did not suppose, that all told, so far as I could guess or know, there were not more than thirty or forty.
Q. Did you make any demand to recruit your police—demand upon men to serve on the police?
A. That had been done by advertisement in the Sunday morning papers, by the chief of police?
Q. Did you issue an order calling on men, demanding them to join your police force?
A. Which, on Sunday?
Q. At any time?
A. Nothing, except that on Saturday morning for the police.
Q. It was in the shape of a request, was it not?
A. Yes; it was an order.
Q. It was not a command such as would be a command under the laws of the Commonwealth?
A. I don't think it was. I didn't see it. I didn't look for it.
Q. It was placed in the papers by your clerk?
A. By the chief of police.
Q. When you went to the scene of the riot on Saturday night, did you use efforts yourself to suppress the riot or stop it?
A. I went into the crowd and talked with them, but I might as well have talked to the moon.
Q. Who did you talk with?
A. There were several that I talked to that I did not know. I only met one man that I did know, and he had been a lieutenant of police.
Q. He was engaged in rioting?
A. He was there with the crowd and very muddled.
Q. How long before that had he been lieutenant of police?
A. He had been lieutenant of police, I suppose, as near as I can judge, some three weeks before.
Q. And discharged under the order discharging the day force?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you meet any other persons that had been members of the police force?
A. No; not in that position?
Q. What replies did you get from the men when admonishing them to desist?
A. Everybody was filled with the idea that the troops the citizens causelessly, and that had excited the indignation and made men wild. It was a fearful sentiment on Saturday night.
Q. I understood you to state that the reason why you did not go to the Twelfth ward during the Friday and Saturday before, was that you had been superseded by the military?
A. Yes; and because I was perfectly satisfied that the influence that controlled would be disastrous, and that I could not prevent it, and I was not going to permit myself to be compromised by it.
Q. You did go to the scene on Saturday night?
A. I did.
Q. Or rather on Sunday?
A. I did.
Q. Had you gone there on Thursday, or Friday, or Saturday morning, and made use of the police that you had under your command, could you not have prevented the disturbance?
A. Permit me to say again that it was impossible for me to have any connection with the men who had charge of that, because I could not control them. They are men that would not listen to me, and that I could have no influence with.
Q. Whom do you refer to?
A. I refer to the leading officers of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company.
Q. You had control of your police force, hadn't you?
A. I had.
Q. You have control of the affairs of the city.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the organization of the police?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You could have control of the force—you are the peace officer of the city?
A. Yes, sir; and there is the sheriff.
Q. Why did not you then assert your rights as peace officer?
A. Because I recognized the fact that I have no right to come in conflict with the sheriff and the military. I was utterly hostile to their movements and to their plan of operations, and I felt satisfied that it could have no other end than the end that was reached. I, surely, under those circumstances, would have been of no more use than a painted ship upon a painted sea. They would not listen to me.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Did you go to them and talk with them, or did you try and see whether you could cooperate with them in any manner?
A. No, sir; I knew the men. That was enough for me.
Q. Do I understand you to say that there was an antagonism between you and the sheriff of the county?
A. It could not be otherwise in this matter, because they had adopted a plan of action that I could have nothing at all to do with.
Q. Were you called on first by the railroad officials?
A. Yes; and gave them all they wanted, and gave them so many men—I will prove to you that they said they didn't want them.
Q. You were asked to go to the scene of the disturbance?
A. Yes; we have talked that matter over several times.
Q. Did you receive any communication from Mr. Scott, the solicitor of the road, on Thursday?
A. I did not.
Q. On Friday?
A. I did not.
Q. Did he make a request to you that you would order the saloons of the city closed?
A. I got a document on Saturday afternoon—I don't know, some time on Saturday it was, according to my recollection—it was by Mr. Thaw, I think by Mr. McCullough, and I think by Mr. Quay, and I think by Mr. Latta, requesting me to request the saloons to be closed, which request, on my part, was complied with.
Q. At what time?
A. That I could not say. I had no right to compel the closing of them—none whatever. I could only request.
Q. You had a riot and disorder in the city then. Do I understand that you had no right to order the saloons closed?
A. No, sir; I have no right to order them closed, under any circumstances, except upon Sunday or upon election days. Then the laws forbid them to be open.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you have any knowledge of the disturbance, and the extent of the disturbance during Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, out in the vicinity of the Union depot, on the railroad?
A. I did not know of any disturbance occurring.
Q. During any of those days?
A. None of those days, except what I told you as having occurred on Thursday. I had reason to believe that there was no disturbance from Thursday afternoon until Saturday afternoon.
Q. Didn't you know of a large collection of people in that vicinity?
A. Oh, yes, sir. I knew they were coming there—went there to see the soldiers—what was going on. People went there as they would to a county fair or a boat race, to see what was to be seen. Men with their families, women with their children, even children in their arms, went there from curiosity.
Q. Don't you know that there was a large crowd there before the military arrived?
A. No, sir.
Q. No knowledge of that?
A. No knowledge of what we would call a large crowd. I know there was quite a crowd there on Thursday. I know from what I am told, there was a crowd there at the time of the alleged disturbance with Mr. Watt and Mr. McCall.
Q. Hadn't you been told by citizens and others, that there was a large crowd there—likely to be trouble?
A. No, sir.
Q. Hadn't any idea?
A. I had an idea that there was to be trouble, because when the military came out they were subject to the thousand contingencies that would produce disturbance.
Q. Had you any intimation of trouble before the military were ordered out?
A. As much as I told you occurred on Friday, after the arrest by the police of this man who was alleged to have struck Mr. Watt. Think there was no disturbance after that during the whole of Thursday night, and to Friday morning, when the police were dismissed.
Q. Did you go to any trouble to ascertain the extent of that disturbance, on the first disturbance on Thursday?
A. Of course, I knew the extent of it from what the police told me.
Q. You were shortly informed of what was going on—made all efforts necessary to ascertain?
A. It came to me without an effort.
Q. Didn't require any effort to ascertain?
A. No, sir; I inquired what going on, and ascertained what was going on.
Q. Didn't your police inform you that the mob had overpowered the police, and also the railroad authorities, on Thursday?
A. Why, no! they didn't overpower them. I proved that here. They were not overpowered.
Q. They had every control of their railroad and their rolling stock without interference?
A. I will prove it to you by the police.
Q. I want to know what you were informed of the situation of affairs—what you know of your own knowledge?
A. I was not there. I don't know anything of my own knowledge. I can tell you what can be proved by the police.
Q. I ask you the question, what reports you got from your officers?
A. That everything was quiet and peaceable after the arrest of McCall.
Q. Did you receive any reports from your officers on Friday, that everything was quiet?
A. On Friday morning I received word that the police had been dismissed by the Pennsylvania railroad men.
Q. Who informed you of that fact?
A. I can't tell you.
Q. An officer of your force?
A. I presume so; in fact it must have been; that state of facts I can prove here and demonstrate.
Q. Did you at any time deem it necessary to increase your force of police?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But did you do so?
A. Done what I could to increase.
Q. To what extent did you increase your force?
A. It was increased upwards of one hundred men, by the order of the committee of public safety, and after I got about one hundred, their orders were that I should increase the force to three hundred, but I came to the conclusion that that number of men were not needed, and I didn't employ any more. I suppose we had altogether about two hundred and forty or two hundred and fifty men.
Q. Did you increase your police force before you were ordered to do so by the public committee?
A. Yes; to the extent of ordering the police who were unemployed to report to the city hall for duty on Sunday forenoon. A portion of them came, not many. They considered they had been very badly treated, and they did not care about risking their lives under those circumstances.
Q. Could you have demanded citizens to serve as police on your force?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you do so?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you have all you needed?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why did not you make this demand?
A. Because I had no time to do it. My time was fully occupied. I had met several gentlemen in the morning, and they called a citizens' meeting for the forenoon, and I expected them to make arrangements to go out, in what we might call, in a non-legal way, in a posse, but instead of doing that they thought it more advisable to send a number of gentlemen up to address the crowd.
Q. Who thought so?
A. The meeting.
Q. Citizens' meeting?
A. Yes, sir; they were there and addressed the crowd from the upper end of the platform of the Union depot, but it was of no avail, talking was of no use. Then they were to have a meeting in the afternoon. I came down to that meeting and met the committee at the city hall, talked a little there, and then they adjourned to meet on Market street, and there was considerable talk. Doctor Donnelly was there, he was one of the spokesmen, and he talked there about having offered, with the permission of the mayor, a company. He is slightly mistaken as to having formed a company; it was I who formed it.
Q. A military company with arms?
A. No, sir; a company of citizens.
Q. Armed citizens?
A. They were not armed. They had nothing.
Q. You subsequently armed them, didn't you?
A. Yes, sir. To properly understand the spirit with which I was actuated, with permission of the committee, I will read two extracts, one from the Post of Monday, and one from the Gazette of Monday morning, these extracts are not literally reported, but to show the spirit that was there, and with permission of the committee, I will read them.
Q. Are they long?
A. No, sir; they are not long. This is from the Post of Monday, July 23, 1877.
Q. An editorial?
A. A local report. This is the extract: "An enterprising individual here endeavored to throw cold water on the spirit of the meeting, by saying they needed a thousand men; but he was suppressed. Mayor McCarthy rushed to the stand, and said there was no use of any more fooling. 'Let all who wanted to save their city fall into line, and go at once to the mayor's office, and be sworn in as extra policemen. The fire was spreading, and the incendiaries were still at work, and we must act now.'" Then the reporter puts in this: "This suited the meeting, and a portion of the meeting formed in line, and, under head of the mayor, marched off." That is from the , Post.
Q. Before you go any further, did you command that force?
A. I led them; went at their head. I will give you a history of that.
Q. As commander of them?
A. Yes; they were not going into action. There is a history about this, which I will give you after reading this. This is from the Gazette of Monday, July 23, an extract: "There was now a loud call for the mayor, who was in the crowd. He stepped to the front, and said, 'The city is on fire. There is no time to be lost. I want every man, who is ready to help me, to go up here to join this band to go and put down incendiaries.' Mr. Henry Pilipps, junior, said, 'Let us go to the city hall at once, and be perfectly organized as a vigilance committee, and let the mayor swear his policemen in.' The mayor then said, 'I can swear them in now,' and suiting the action to the word, the mayor made his way to one end of the crowd, and countermarched through them. The ranks were quickly filled up, as soon as the movement was understood. The meeting adjourned to call of the chair, and the company proceeded up Fifth avenue." Now this company that I formed there. Doctor Donnelly was present, and he had been spoken of as a fit person to command. I intended to have taken them down Diamond alley to Gregg's store, and arm them with axe-handles or pick-handles, or whatever could be got; but the large majority of them were indisposed to do that, and we started off to the university building, across the way here, and two or three portions of the building were broken in in search of some drilling arms that the cadets in the university use. After a considerable waste of time there, they couldn't get the arms. We succeeded in getting them into line again, and we marched off to Gregg's. Mr. Gregg opened the door, and the line formed outside in the street, and some men went into the store, and they carried enough of those ax-handles to arm the crowd. When that was done, I turned them over to Doctor Donnelly. In anticipation of the formation of this company, I had given orders for a number of police to collect at the city hall, to the end that they would lead this company and precede them, and in that position go and attack the rioters. When I had put Doctor Donnelly in charge, I told him to bring his men to the city hall, and I would give him a police force to precede them and march at their head to go to the scene of the riot. I don't know whether the Doctor understood me or not; but his police force did go. His company didn't go to the city hall, and right here, permit me to say that you have heard a great deal about fifty men squelching this mob, and a hundred determined men. I suppose Doctor Donnelly thought he had determined men, and he didn't go for police assistance. Possibly he expected he could accomplish it all without the aid of police. He went; he was repulsed horse, foot, and dragoon. The next thing I saw of them they came to the city hall in a demoralized condition. I said to the doctor when he came there, says I, "Doctor, keep your men here. I understand that there is a company of soldiers on a steamboat at the lock. You and I will go up and see if we can get them." He got into the buggy, and we went up there. We saw the lady of the house at the lock, and she told me that these men had had orders to go into camp at the poor farm. We came back to the city hall, and was informed that Doctor Donnelly's troops had gone to their supper, and would be back after supper. After supper there came some eight or ten of them—they were there ready for action. That was all that came back, and so you see what fifty determined men could do.
Q. Did this company of Doctor Donnelly's go up there armed with anything else but pick handles?
A. I don't know. I think that after I left them ready to come to the city hall, that they went some place and got some arms, because they came back to the mayor's office with some instruments——
Q. Muskets?
A. I guess there were some muskets the university had used. I know the university authorities created quite a disturbance about their not being returned to them.
Q. You spoke about different parties coming there to suppress this riot. Who were those parties, besides your officers—I mean outside of the city authorities?
A. This meeting of the citizens.
Q. Who else?
A. I don't know any others.
Q. The sheriff and the county authorities?
A. I saw nothing of them on Sunday.
Q. You were speaking of those parties attempting command or change of affairs in trying to suppress the riots. Did you have reference to the citizens' committee?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was it the sheriff's posse?
A. I have reference to the county authorities, the Pennsylvania railroad, and the military.
Q. Then what was it you had reference to—the citizens?
A. No, sir.
Q. Nor Doctor Donnelly's command?
A. I think Doctor Donnelly's command went in good faith, to do what they could—they were not able.
Q. You said you were utterly hostile to all those parties in their efforts?
A. I said I was hostile to their plan of operations, because I didn't think it was called for at the time it was done, because I believed it would end in disaster, which it did.
Q. Did you make any effort to have any conference with these parties to agree on some plan that would be effected?
A. No, sir; they went to work independent of me, and had called out the troops without consulting me at all. I was at my office all night waiting if anything would occur, and I knew nothing of this movement to call troops out until I saw the dispatches on Friday morning.
Q. Do I understand you that because they did not consult you, you put yourself in hostility to all these parties?
A. If you understand me that way, you understand me entirely wrong.
Q. I want to know that?
A. I have time and again here to-day stated that I was utterly hostile to their plan of operations, and that I had nothing to do with them, because I knew I would be powerless with these men.
Q. You made no effort to see them or converse with them, and had no conference with them?
A. No, sir.
Q. Made no attempt to have any conference with them?
A. No, sir; I did not. I am satisfied they did not want me.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was it not your duty as mayor of the city, to take charge, notwithstanding these men, and if they put themselves in your way, to take them and make them behave themselves?
A. No; I could not do that. The sheriff is the leading officer.
Q. Here among the powers, I find set forth is, "To prevent riots, noises, disturbances, or disorderly assemblages—" that is a part of your powers.
A. I will show you something stronger than that there. That is very weak—wishy-washy. Do not understand me as being offensive—you have got a pretty good-natured face, and I like to talk to you. There it is, "The mayor of the city, shall be its executive officer, and the conservator of its peace. He shall have and exercise within the city limits, the powers conferred on sheriffs of counties, to suppress disorder, and keep the peace.
Q. That is what I meant. Was it not part of your duty to take charge yourself, as mayor?
A. Not under the circumstances. I had been superseded by the power that had the whole county at its beck, who had without my knowledge, and, as I thought, entirely unnecessary, laid out a plan of action I could have nothing at all to do with.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. I would like at this point, for the mayor to explain why he considered himself superseded, having acted without his knowledge.
A. Why I considered I had been superseded?
Q. You say that they acted without your knowledge. I want to know why you considered yourself superseded?
A. I did not consider myself superseded because they acted without my knowledge. If I said anything of that kind I have been misunderstood. I have time and again tried to express myself upon that point, and that is this, that the sheriff of the county, together with the military, had taken possession of this matter, and superseded the mayor.
Q. Had you been so informed?
A. I was superseded by the dismissal of the police on Friday morning, and the taking possession by soldiers who had been called out by the State authorities.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Do you know the fact of your own knowledge that the police had been dismissed?
A. I know that fact from the statement of the police—made to me and to the office.
Q. That is the only way you know that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You received no intelligence of that fact from the railroad officials?
A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. Is it their prerogative to dismiss the police, or have you got control of them?
A. They were under control of the railroad authorities. They directed them where to go, and according to their orders they went.
Q. Have they got control, equal to yourself, with any police in this city?
A. Under the circumstances they had.
Q. You delegated that power to them?
A. They were sent there for that purpose, to do just as they said for them to do.
Q. You delegated the power to the railroad officials to have charge of these men?
A. I cannot say that I delegated them, because there were not over four or five that were under my control.
Q. Did you consider, under all the circumstances, that the railroad officials or anybody else had the right to dismiss police without consulting you, or had any control over them?
A. Under those circumstances, I did.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Was that dismissal anything more than a mere taking of those warrants from the hands of the police, and putting them in the hands of the sheriff?
A. There was nothing of the kind took place, and now understand me: policemen, at the suggestion of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, were sent there during the afternoon and the night. They were there under the control of the railroad authorities, and when the railroad authorities did not want them any more, they dismissed them, which was on Friday morning.
Q. You understand they gave them a formal dismissal, and told them their services were not needed to keep the peace any longer?
A. I do not know in what form it was done.
Q. Was it not merely taking warrants from their hands, and telling these policemen they would put the warrants that were in their hands for execution into the hands of the sheriff to execute—was not that all the dismissal there was?
A. At that time no warrants had been issued.
Q. On Friday?
A. On Friday morning, when the police were dismissed by the railroad authorities, no warrants had been issued—no information had been made.
Q. After their dismissal, did you think then you had no further occasion to keep the police force there?
A. Not because they were dismissed, but because I had been superseded by the military and the county.
Q. I want to know why you thought you were superseded—were you so informed by either of those parties, either the sheriff or the mayor, or anybody acting for them?
A. No, sir; I was not informed by them.
Q. Why did you consider yourself superseded? Simply because they took action to suppress the riot?
A. They took possession of the whole business. There was no room for me.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Would not your police force which you could have gathered together have been some assistance to them in keeping the peace?
A. If the sheriff had asked me for the police as a posse to help him I could have given a hundred men.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. I want to ask you this question, if you think that you can be superseded by the military?
A. If I am not?
Q. Yes; can you be superseded by the military in your powers and duties?
A. If I had charge they would not supersede me.
Q. Is it not your duty to take charge?
A. That duty had been performed by the sheriff.
Q. Is it not your duty to take charge of your police and put down any riots or disturbance within the city limits, regardless of any power on earth?
A. No, sir; in the event that the sheriff does not interfere, it would be. If I got possession first I would hold.
Q. Were you not called upon first by the railroad officials?
A. I was called upon first by the railroad officials to furnish them with ten men.
Q. And you acted?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why did you not keep control?
A. Because they had taken it out of my hands by dismissing the police, calling upon the sheriff, and the sheriff called upon the State for troops.
Q. Then I understand you to say that the sheriff superseded you, in your judgment?
A. That is what I said a dozen times.
Q. Did the military supersede you?
A. Certainly they did.
Q. I want to know if you think the military can supersede you?
A. Mr. Chairman, you are getting too hair-splitting here. If I had charge the military could not supersede me—it would not be in their power.
Q. Did you not have charge at the commencement?
A. At the commencement I had, but on Friday morning I was thrown to the dogs. In the night they had sent for the sheriff. They did not come down to the mayor's office, where I was ready and waiting to hear what was going on there the whole night, but they went for the sheriff and they took him out.
Q. Did they not telegraph you for fifty more additional police?
A. Did I not tell you half a dozen times that I knew nothing about that—I received no dispatch—how often must I repeat that?
Q. Was it not received at your office?
A. I was told that they sent there for more men, and that they got them.
Q. Did they get fifty more policemen that they called for?
A. No, sir. Wait a moment, and I will prove to you that at supper time—after supper—they sent word from the outer depot to the inner depot that they would not furnish transportation to the policemen that went there—they had enough, and they did not want any more.
Q. You did not send them the fifty policemen?
A. I do not know anything at all about it. They got all they wanted.
Q. Now, in not getting them, they called upon the sheriff?
A. No, sir. I will prove to you they got all they wanted. They said they wanted no more, and they would not furnish transportation to the men at the Union depot; but if these men wanted to go they would have to walk.
Q. They did not get the fifty policemen. You have stated they sent for fifty policemen, and they did not get them?
A. I do not know that they sent for fifty policemen, but I have a moral conviction they sent for more men. How many I do not know. It may have been fifty. I have a moral conviction that more men were sent to them than they wanted, for they said so. Whether it was fifty men, I do not know. I do not think it was fifty.