Q. Was it the ten per cent. reduction made on the 1st of June that induced the men to arrange for that strike?
A. I do not know that it was positively that, more than some other grievances that might be brought up. It was organized more for the protection of ourselves in any grievances that might be brought up. Of course, the ten per cent. would be included.
Q. Were there any other grievances except that ten per cent. reduction?
A. Not at that time.
Q. Had the men any grievances or complaints to make outside of that, when it was talked of that a strike should take place on the 27th of June?
A. I believe there were.
Q. What were they?
A. In regard to the classification of engineers and the amount of pay they received, &c.; that was something I did not particularly understand at that time.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. The object of the brotherhood was to abolish this classification?
A. The object was to protect themselves.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. They considered this grading unjust?
A. Yes; they considered it unjust, which it certainly was.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You did not organize a strike for the 27th of June in regard to any future grievance.
A. No.
Q. It was the ten per cent. reduction and the classification of engines that induced you to arrange that strike for the 27th of June?
A. Yes.
Q. In arranging for a strike, what did the railroad men propose to do—stop all trains—just simply quit work?
A. In case of their striking, they simply proposed quitting work themselves—standing still or going to their homes, or wherever they wished to go. I never heard of any arrangement made as to what they would do.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Were any resolutions passed in your body to stop trains?
A. No.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Were there any resolutions to interfere with the men who desired to work?
A. No.
Q. You said it fell through. What broke off that arrangement to strike on the 27th of June?
A. It was because it was generally thought it was not solid enough; it was not worked in the right way.
Q. How extensive was the arrangement—how wide did it extend?
A. I did not think it was very extensive; at least, I did not think it was very solid.
Q. Do you know how many organizations this Trainmen's Union had in existence—how many lodges?
A. I am not prepared to say; I do not know.
Q. Did it include all the trunk lines?
A. I think it did.
Q. Did it include all the employés of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?
A. It included all those who joined the order.
Q. What other roads?
A. Most all the roads out of Pittsburgh; in fact, I guess all the other main roads.
Q. Where did that union originate?
A. I believe in Pittsburgh.
Q. When was it abandoned?
A. Previous to the strike.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Then there was no organization at the time of the strike.
A. No; we had no meeting for some time previous to the strike.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. For how long previous?
A. Not within a week, and that was very small. The meeting called last was called without the approval of the right party in this union. His attention was called to a poster struck up on a telegraph pole by a certain party, and I rather think it was put up just as a burlesque in the first place. There had not been a regular meeting for some time previous to the strike.
Q. Can you tell what induced them to abandon the union?
A. I have my own idea, but I don't know whether I am right. My impression always was that the railroad men, in connection with the Trainmen's Union, were afraid to attempt it for fear of being discharged from the road. I claim it was lack of nerve on the part of the men. I was discharged myself after the first trainmen's meeting I ever attended, and I am satisfied I would still be a union man if there had been any men with me.
Q. When did you first learn of the strike on Thursday, July 19?
A. In the neighborhood of eleven o'clock, in the forenoon.
Q. Had you any intimation of it before that?
A. Not in the least. In fact I was surprised, and I didn't believe such a thing was going on until I walked to Twenty-eighth street, and saw it to be a fact.
Q. When you got there who did you find there?
A. A few railroad men, and I believe a few policemen were there, and some citizens.
Q. How many railroad men were there?
A. I cannot tell you that—I suppose twenty or thirty or forty or fifty. A great many of those men I didn't know.
Q. What road were those men working on at that time?
A. I think the majority of them belonged to the Pennsylvania railroad.
Q. What were they doing?
A. They didn't appear to be doing anything. They just appeared to be standing around talking.
Q. Was there any effort made to move any trains while you were there?
A. Not at that time.
Q. Were any made in your presence?
A. Not just in my presence. I believe they undertook—that is only hearsay—but I could see from Twenty-eighth street down towards where they started the trains west of Twenty-eighth street, and I think on Friday I saw a few engines apparently coupled to trains. Whether they intended to go out is more than I can tell of my own knowledge. I know they didn't go out.
Q. Did you see anybody try to start a train on Thursday?
A. No, sir; I didn't see anybody try to start a train during the trouble.
Q. Were you there during Thursday night?
A. I was not there during any night.
Q. What was the object of the men assembling at that point?
A. From the understanding I had from the men, after talking with a few of the men, it was that they had struck against the double-headers.
Q. Were those men members of the Trainmen's union?
A. Some of them.
Q. Why were they assembled in force on the track?
A. That is more than I can tell what their motive was.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What did they say about it?
A. Nothing particularly—nothing more than that they had struck.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you talk with them?
A. I talked with some few of the men I knew.
Q. Did you admonish them that it was wrong to be assembled in such large numbers there?
A. No.
Q. Was anything said about that?
A. Not that I know of. I was not in a very good humor just as I got up there. I had been insulted just before I reached Twenty-eighth street.
Q. By whom?
A. By Mr. Watt. When I reached there there were only a few of those parties that I knew.
Q. The Trainmen's Union, at that time, was not in existence?
A. They had not had a meeting for some time previous.
Q. Did they have any meetings after that?
A. Not that I know of.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was the organization formally disbanded?
A. It just died out. They had no meetings called of the order.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. When did this union start, to your knowledge?
A. It was about the latter part of May, I think, or the 1st of June.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. As a member of the organization, what action would your organization have taken in reference to that unlawful assemblage there?
A. My idea is that they would have discountenanced anything of the kind—any burning, or pillaging, or anything of that kind.
Q. Or any interference with trains?
A. That is more than I can tell. I cannot tell anything about what men will do after getting started.
Q. Would your organization have any means of disciplining the members of it who interfered with the movements of the trains?
A. Most certainly. Our order had a head.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You mean to say, in your organization, according to the rules and regulations of it, if they struck, they passed resolutions that no trains should go out?
A. I didn't say anything of the kind.
Q. Was it the intention of the men to interfere with the movement of the trains?
A. Not to the best of my knowledge. I never heard any such resolution, and I never heard any person speak of it that way.
Q. Do you know any of the men that did interfere with the movement of the trains who belonged to the union?
[Witness did not answer.]
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. In that arrangement to strike on the 27th of June—how extensive was that strike to be—how far was it to extend—what roads was it to include?
A. It included the roads running out of Pittsburgh, so far as I know.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. What roads are they?
A. The Pennsylvania railroad, the Pan-Handle, the Fort Wayne and Chicago, the Allegheny Valley, and the Cleveland and Pittsburgh.
Q. Was the Baltimore and Ohio not included?
A. I cannot say particularly.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was your organization notified of this strike that took place on Thursday, the 19th?
A. No, sir; no more than what I told you, that I was met on the corner of Eleventh street, near the Rush house, and told of it, in the neighborhood of eleven o'clock.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. You said you were discharged on account of being a union man?
A. I am positive of it—at least the message I received bore nearly about the same words, but not just in that way.
Q. That, of course, was a grievance?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did your Trainmen's Union include the employés of the Baltimore and Ohio road?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that strike in pursuance of an arrangement made in your union?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Was that formally communicated to your union here—the strike that occurred there?
A. No; nothing more than hearsay on the street.
Q. Did the members of your union make any effort to have those parties disperse and go to their homes during Friday, Saturday, and Sunday?
A. Not that I know of—no more than I did myself.
Q. What did you do in relation to it?
A. I did take some men out of the crowd at Twenty-eighth street, men that belonged to the Pan-Handle road. At Twenty-eighth street, that day, I was met by this Watt. He says to me, I want you to leave this property. Watt was the man; but I didn't know him only by sight. I thought, of course, he was an employé of the company. He said, I want you to leave the company's ground, and I asked him who he was. He replied that it didn't make any difference who he was, that he knew who I was, and my motive for being there. I said if he knew my motive he knew my business better than I did, for I hardly knew myself what I was there for. And after trying to give me a bluff, as I call it, that he was Mr. Watt, and employed by the road, I went up towards Twenty-eighth street, and there understood that they were going to send for what they called the Pan Handle roughs to head this trouble. I knew the great majority of those men—between eighty and a hundred of them were discharged off the Pan Handle road, and had been discharged prior to this strike. The majority of them were in town; some had left town; but a great many of them were here, and they were pretty lucky if they could get one meal a day. I didn't want to see any of them get into further trouble, and when I heard this I was afraid that some of those men would enter into this thing through persuasion. I went to them singly, and took some half a dozen out of the crowd, one at a time, and told them not to have anything to do with the affair. I said, I have been discharged from the Pan Handle, and you, and there will be nothing in this of any benefit at all. I took out six or eight men from different parties that had belonged to the Pan Handle railroad.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What did they mean by sending for the Pan Handle roughs?
A. They thought that a few men of that road were rougher than anybody else, or had more pluck. I don't know—it was a rumor I heard.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Those men you spoke to went with you willingly out of the crowd?
A. Yes.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Were you on the ground of the Pennsylvania railroad, or on public ground?
A. It was on their ground. I was walking right up the track. After this man was going to bounce me, I walked up to Twenty-eighth street, and I told him I thought I would have the privilege of standing there on the street.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What do you mean by bouncing you?
A. Why, if I had weakened a little, I suppose he would have thrown me off.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Were you there during the day, Sunday?
A. I was not. I was not on the ground at all after Saturday evening—after one of our engineers was wounded very badly. I helped to carry him up Liberty street on a shutter. I was not on the ground afterwards.
Q. Did you see any considerable number of the Pan-Handle men or employés in the crowd?
A. Not a great many.
Q. Who seemed to be the leaders of the crowd?
A. That is more than I can tell you.
Q. What business are you engaged in now?
A. Not any.
Q. Do you reside in the city?
A. Yes.
Q. You are still out of employment?
A. Yes; and likely to remain out so long as some of these men hold their positions on the roads.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What position did you hold in this organization?
A. I was the president.
Q. You know nothing of this organization being in existence at that time on any roads except those that ran out of Pittsburgh?
A. At which time?
Q. At the time the strike was contemplated, in June?
A. They might have been contemplating such a thing, but the organization at that time, in June, was not so extensive as it got to be afterwards.
Q. Then it did increase afterwards and extend?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether it did exist on other roads in June?
A. I don't know.
Q. You think it started here and spread?
A. Yes.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You say it started here?
A. Yes; I believe so. It was first organized here.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Were you here at its birth?
A. Yes; and I have no objection either as to being at the first meeting.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was it beneficial?
A. It had not got that far along, but it would have been, probably.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was it the object of this organization to control the railroad companies, as to wages and running regulations?
A. The object, no doubt, of the organization was to protect themselves, no matter what grievances might be brought up, if based on good authority. The union would attend to them in its own way, whatever it might be.
Q. In what way did they propose to protect themselves?
A. That would have to be brought up before the order before they could tell that.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Then there was no definite plan by which the railroad companies were to be controlled or coerced into coming to terms with the union?
A. No.
Q. That was left to be determined as circumstances might arise?
A. That is it exactly.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You said, a while ago, that this last meeting you spoke of was not regularly called?
A. No.
Q. You would have been the proper person to call it?
A. Yes.
Q. It was not done at your instance?
A. If it had been called it would have been through me. I had nothing to do with this poster on the telegraph pole; but after being on the pole for a half day, I concluded, rather than dupe the men, to let them meet, but nothing was done.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Do you know how many members of this organization there were in Pittsburgh at the time of the contemplated strike in June?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know how many divisions there were in this city?
A. No.
Q. Have you any idea?
A. In Pittsburgh?
Q. Yes?
A. Three or four in Pittsburgh—three, I think.
Q. How many members belonged to the division you were connected with?
A. That is a question I cannot answer—I cannot tell.
Q. Can you give an approximate estimate of the number in Pittsburgh, at that time?
A. Four or five hundred.
Q. Was there not an understanding in the union, that whenever there were differences between the train men and the railroad companies, that the railroad companies were to be brought to terms by the members of the union, by striking on some particular day, without any notice to the companies, so that all traffic would be stopped?
A. I don't know of anything of that kind.
Q. Was there not some such talk, that that would be the most effectual way of bringing the companies to terms?
A. There was a great deal of wild talk among the men.
Q. There was no such proposal made in the union?
A. No.
Q. And no definite plan was adopted by the union to act upon the railroad companies in any way?
A. No.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. When any men wanted to become members of the organization, did they have to pay any initiation fees or dues?
A. They would have had to in course of time, but, up to that time, it was more a charitable institution than anything else. Anybody that had five cents or a quarter, and wanted to give it, could give it.
Q. There was no specific sum at that time?
A. No.
Q. Nor since?
A. The union is not in existence.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What do you mean by a strike—a railroad strike—what is the usual custom—what do you mean by it?
A. What I have always understood by a strike, is the men quitting work.
Q. You understand that they are all to quit?
A. Most undoubtedly.
Q. For the purpose of stopping traffic—the running of trains?
A. If that would stop it—most undoubtedly.
Q. Is it customary, in railroad strikes, for the men who quit work, to stop others from working, by violence or otherwise?
A. I have never seen it—by violence.
Q. Only by persuasion?
A. Only by persuasion. I have heard about a great many men being stopped, but, if our railroad men would get up and testify—I have heard railroad men claim that they wanted to work, but there was not one of them, that was not in the mire just as deep, while the thing was going on.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. You mean the trainmen?
A. Certainly.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What class of men did you take into your organization?
A. Men belonging to the transportation department.
Q. No outsiders—no mill men?
A. I believe not.
Q. Had you a constitution and by-laws?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you got them in your possession?
A. I have not.
Q. Who has?
A. That is more than I can say.
Q. You don't know.
A. No.
Q. Have you a copy of them?
A. I have not.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Can you give us the names of any men that would be willing to appear before our committee, and give information about the strike or their grievances?
A. Yes; an engineer by the name of John Hassler, residing on Wood street, the second or third door to the left of Bidwell. I think he would be an important witness; also, an engineer by the name of William Robb. He lives in the lower part of Allegheny somewhere, but I cannot tell his residence exactly.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You say that the union does not exist now. Do you know of any other organization that is organized to produce the same effect.
A. No; no more than what has always been in existence. The locomotive engineers, of course, have their union.
G. Gilbert Follensbee, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. In Pittsburgh.
Q. Where is your place of business?
A. On Fifth avenue—No. 42.
Q. What is it?
A. I am in the clothing business.
Q. In company with some other gentlemen, did you call on the mayor during the disturbance in July last; and, if so, give us the circumstances?
A. On the evening of the 21st of July, (Saturday,) between seven and eight o'clock, I heard that parties had got into some gun stores, and I went to my friend Mr. Bown, and then found Mr. Edward Myers; and after talking a while, we thought it would be prudent to see the mayor, and tell him that we thought it would be prudent to get a posse, and come down and protect Mr. Bown's gunshop. We saw the mayor, and said: "You are probably aware that some gun stores have been broken into;" and we implored him to send a posse to protect the gun stores.
Q. What reply did he make?
A. I do not remember his reply, but he seemed to be very indifferent, and I implored him, for God's sake, to do something, and that we three would volunteer, and that probably with fifty men or less we could protect Mr. Bown's store.
Q. Did you offer to be sworn in?
A. I volunteered to be one of the posse.
Q. What reply did he make to that?
A. I do not remember.
Q. Did he say in response to your application—did he say whether he had the policemen or not, or did he make any excuse that he could not raise them?
A. No; I do not think he made any reply in regard to his police. I was aware that his police were small and scattered around the city, and my idea was to have him swear in some of us as special police.
Q. Did he refuse to swear you in as special police?
A. He did not take any action in the matter.
Q. Did he send anybody to the store?
A. Not that I am aware of.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did the mob come there?
A. Yes; Mr. Bown left his store and came to my store, and while there, we heard the mob.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How long before the mob came down had you made this call upon the mayor?
A. Two hours, at least—two hours—an hour and a half or two hours. Before the mob got there, I went back to Mr. Bown's store, and asked him if there was no place to secrete the arms, and they took them down into the cellar and vault and secreted a good many of them.
Q. Did you see the mob?
A. Yes; I saw the mob in the store, but not in front of the store, because we had gone in the rear private way. We could see the store full of people—probably one hundred to one hundred and fifty were in the store.
Q. What class of men were they?
A. They did not seem to me to be any particularly riot element, so far as appearances were concerned. They did not look like tramps or roughs.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Do you suppose they were citizens of Pittsburgh?
A. I suppose so.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did they take away any more arms than they wanted themselves?
A. I do not think they left any.
Q. Was there any ammunition in the store?
A. I was so informed.
Q. What was done with that?
A. They took the ammunition too.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was the mayor aware of those arms and that ammunition in the store?
A. It was the most prominent gun store in the city.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Could any force of determined men have stopped the riot?
A. I am only speaking about that gun shop, and I think that from thirty to fifty determined men could have prevented the riot at that place.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You were willing to be one of them?
A. I said so.
Q. Did you tell him you wanted a force to guard that gun store?
A. Yes; I said for God's sake do something to protect that gun store. I looked at it this way: That it would be terribly fatal if the mob were to get in and get guns and ammunition.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did the major know who you were?
A. Intimately.
Q. You are intimately acquainted with him?
A. Yes.
William H. Bown, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What is your business?
A. I belong to the firm of James Bown & Son. Our place of business is located on Wood street, and our business is cutlery and guns and revolvers, and all kinds of sportsmen's articles.
Q. Do you keep ammunition, also?
A. Yes; powder and shot and caps and wads.
By Mr. Yutzy:
Q. Fixed ammunition, also?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What efforts did you make to secure protection during the riot?
A. My father went to see the mayor, with Mr. Follensbee. He went early in the day to Mt. Washington, to see a shooting match. We were not aware of any excitement in the city, but word came to me. In the afternoon I saw a telegraphic dispatch from some one about the mayor. It was the mayor's clerk that brought it down—setting forth that there was a mob organized to break into the different gun stores that evening. I judge between five and six o'clock that came down. He wanted me to remove all our arms. I said that it was so late in the day that I did not know where to place them—that we had a large number, but that, nevertheless, we would try to remove all we possibly could. I then got both the porters and took the arms out of the windows, and a lot of ammunition, cartridges, and cans of powder, and I got some paper and covered over it, to convey the impression to those passing along that we were about cleaning the window, and I left the paper there to disguise it. I had not commenced to take out the arms in the cases. We had two cases that run about sixty feet long. I went to supper, and about six o'clock, when I came back, I found six policemen at the store, but the mayor's clerk came down about seven o'clock, and said they were required at the Central station. Shortly after that father came. He could not get into the front, from the fact that we had the wire across and the screens put up, and I had also gone out and got a couple of scantlings, and put them against the doors, and braced them against the counters. I did not anticipate that they would break in the large glass windows. We had commenced to take down the arms and put them in the magazine, which we have in the cellar, where we keep the powder, and we got down, I should judge about forty, and were kept pretty busy in getting them down, when the large alarm bell struck and I heard the glass go. I came up the stairs, and when I got to the top I found they had knocked the lock off, and I immediately went down, but I could not find the key. I was in my shirt sleeves at the time, but I closed the bolt and put out the gas and came up stairs, and just as I came up I met two parties right at my desk—I had a desk where I do my correspondence—and one of them says, "why in the hell don't you turn up the gas?" I suppose he took me for one of the party who came in. I passed him and went on up stairs, and stayed there until after the racket was over.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Where was the mob?
A. On the lower floor; of course they came up stairs, and then I went up to the third floor.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What was their manner as to being boisterous or demonstrative?
A. When they came in there, I thought bedlam had broken loose.
Q. What class of men were they?
A. What we term from the south side—I judge workingmen. They would just come to the cases and break them in. A few of them had old muskets.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. That they brought with them?
A. Yes; and one party was very kind, and left his and took a new gun.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. After these policemen were taken up to the central station, did any of them return?
A. That I cannot say, but I understood from those that came in after the mob went away, that they were out there, but the mob was too large for them to handle.
By Mr. Reyburn:
Q. Did the mayor's clerk come down and order those policemen to report?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he take them away from your store?
A. Yes; at that time everything was quiet about the city.
Q. He had notified you that there would be an attempt made?
A. It was reported that there would be an attempt made on the different gun stores.
Q. Yet he took these policemen away?
A. Yes; because at that time there was no excitement at the lower end of the city.
Q. Did they return before you were driven out of the store by the mob?
A. I did not see them; but I cannot say.
Q. But were they ordered back for duty before this mob came?
A. I understood that, but I did not see them. I was in the store at the time, and did not come down, because I thought discretion was the better part of valor.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You saw that dispatch?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was it signed by?
A. I did not notice. I think a fictitious name was to it. I did not notice any name to it, particularly. It was the mayor's clerk. It was late, and all our help had gone off, and the boys had gone to supper, and I was alone, with the two porters.
By Mr. Yutzy:
Q. How many guns and pistols were taken out of your store?
A. Something over four hundred. They took everything—carving knives, butcher knives, and forks, and ammunition, and cutlery—everything they could take.
E. A. Myers, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. At No. 60 Liberty street.
Q. Where is your place of business?
A. No. 145 Wood street.
Q. You are connected with the office of——
A. I am connected with the of the Post.
Q. Relate what occurred when you went to the mayor?
A. I may say that Mr. Bown, senior, came over to my place, and he and Mr. Folensbee went with me up to the mayor, to notify him to send policemen down. After we went there, the mayor at first said he was unable to send any assistance, as the police were scattered through the city, but he would do the best he could. We went to Mr. Johnston's gun shop, a short distance above the mayor's office, and staid there awhile, and came down to the mayor's office, and then walked down to Mr. Bown's establishment, and remained there sometime, without the police coming. Then Mr. Bown and myself went back again, but on the way we met them coming up—we met them coming up—some six or eight of the police—coming; and there were at least six or eight policemen there during the disturbance. The crowd that came up, I don't think, at first numbered over seventy-five or eighty—half grown boys. There seemed to be half a dozen armed with muskets, but a large crowd was collected around the streets.
Q. What effort did the policemen make to drive them back?
A. Nothing, whatever; but they staid there. I spoke to the mayor's clerk; I said there were not enough of them to do anything, but they staid there.
Q. Was the crowd armed when they came there?
A. They apparently had a few muskets and guns with them, as far as I could tell.
Q. Did you offer your services, as a policeman, to the mayor?
A. Not as policeman specially, but I offered to do anything that I could to defend the place—not to the mayor, but to Mr. Bown. Mr. Follensbee, I believe, did.
Q. Mr. Follensbee did?
A. Yes; my impression at that time was, that fifteen or twenty determined persons could have stopped the whole rumpus in front of Mr. Bown's place.
Q. Did the mayor make any demand on the citizens for help?
A. Not that I know of. The mayor told me that his police force was scattered around so that he was unable to get together enough to be of any special service. But they did, however, gather up six or eight of them, and they came down here.
Joseph S. Haymaker, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. At Laurel station, on the Fort Wayne railroad.
Q. State what you know of the riot that began on the 19th of July?
A. I believe it was on Saturday—I think that was the 20th of July—that I came up to the city. I had been home sick for almost two months before that time. I went out to Twenty-eighth street, and at the time I went there I found a very considerable crowd of men there. I knew a very few of them. The great majority of them seemed to be strangers. I say this from the fact that owing to my political knowledge in the city, having made many political speeches here, I had gotten to know a great many men. When I came to Twenty-eighth street that afternoon, about two o'clock, I found a large number of men—probably from twelve hundred to fifteen hundred—right across the railroad track at Twenty-eighth street. I met some men I knew, and we were talking over the probability of a difficulty between the troops and the strikers; and these men, or one of them, said there was no danger of the soldiers firing on them—that the people of the State of Pennsylvania were with the strikers in this matter. Whilst we were talking in that way, the Philadelphia soldiers came up the railroad. I was asked the question two or three time, whether or not I thought the soldiers would fire on the citizens, and I said I would not trust them, and, so far as I am concerned, I am going to get out of the road. They are strangers here, and if ordered to fire will fire. If they don't, they are not good soldiers. I was standing then right in front of what they called the sand-house. Three or four gentlemen were there at the time with me, and John Cluley, the painter. I said to them: now, I have had a little military experience during the last war, and I said we will get out of this and go down the hill-side. I got them to go with me. The Philadelphia men came up, and formed on both sides of the track, clearing the track by forming a square, open at the lower end. At this time I was on the hill-side, about eighty or ninety feet, probably one hundred feet, above where they had formed. In that formation of the square there was a portion of a company—I suppose about twenty or twenty-five men—that had yellow plumes in their hats—Philadelphia men—who were swung off from the left of the square, and tried to force back the mob from Twenty-eighth street. Failing in that, then a company was brought up from the lower end of the square—brought right up between the two lines in this way, [illustrating,] right past where the Gatling guns were stationed, and brought face to face with the mob. They marched up until they were within probably twenty-five or thirty feet of the mob, and then halted for about a second. At that time I noticed the sheriff's posse standing in front of where they were standing, trying to get the mob to move back. Then these men moved at a charge bayonet, and went right up to the mob, and I saw several of the mob catch the bayonets and push them down. Then I saw three or four stones thrown from the little watch-house. These stones were thrown right through into this company coming up. Then I heard a pistol shot fired, and probably two or three seconds after that three or four other pistols shots were fired just like that, [illustrating,] and then I saw two or three of the soldiers go down. Then the stones began to fly down along the line, in among the soldiers, and the firing first began right across the railroad track. I don't know what company or regiment it was, but they had black feathers. They were right in front of this square, and the first musket firing began there. I noticed that. Then I heard, probably a dozen of boys hallo shoot! shoot! down along the line, then the pistol shots began, and the musket shots began, and I got down in a ditch behind where I was, and staid there until it was all over.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. This call of shoot, shoot, where did it come from?
A. I won't be sure about that. I saw some of the officers strike up the guns with their swords, and I saw some pulling of the men backwards inside the square. Then, just right after that, there was a general volley right along the line.
Q. A volley or a scattering fire?
A. File firing—each man for himself.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you hear any order given by any officer to fire?
A. No; nor do I believe any order was given. I say that, for the reason that, had there been an order or command given, there would have been simultaneous firing, but it seemed to me, when the fighting commenced, that everybody was taking care of himself.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. That is, they were protecting themselves from something that was going to injure them?
A. No; but as fast as a man got his gun loaded he would fire, and as fast as the others could get a brick they would throw it.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What effect did the firing of the soldiers produce on the crowd?
A. Right by me, on my right hand an old man, and a little girl on my left hand, were shot dead. I got into the ditch, and I know it was full—the ditch.
By Mr. Means:
Q. It was not a regular volley of musketry?
A. No; it was every fellow for himself.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Do you know how many persons were killed there?
A. No; but when I came up from the ditch—it is not a regular ditch, but a wash down the hillside—when I raised up, somebody else was shot, and I got down again. When I raised up the second time everything was quiet. I looked down over the bank, and several men were lying there dead.
Q. You say that an old gentleman was killed?
A. Yes.
Q. And that a little girl was killed?
A. No; she was shot right through the knee, and I pulled her down into the ditch and tied a handkerchief around her leg. There was a physician there—I think Dr. Schnatterly, of Bellevue, and he took charge of her, and I heard she died that night.
By Mr. Reyburn:
Q. This crowd standing there—what business did they have there?
A. They had no business there.
By Mr. Yutzy:
Q. Had you any business there?
A. None at all; but I had never seen a strike before, and I went up to see what it looked like. Right down along the railroad there was probably ten feet of ground, or twelve feet—right along the railroad, in front of the troops, occupied by a class of men that I had never seen in the city of Pittsburgh before—ragged looking and dirty looking. There is one thing about Pittsburgh people, that you can tell them on the street—at least, I think, I can. I walking along the street, if a man comes from Philadelphia or any other place, I think I can tell him. In other words, I know he don't belong here. I don't know the reason why, but we get to notice our own people, and I say that that crowd of people along there I never saw before. They looked here [illustrating] like people that I never saw before. I believe them to be strangers not only to Pittsburgh and Allegheny county, but to Western Pennsylvania, and, in fact, to the State of Pennsylvania.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How large was that crowd?
A. There were five hundred or more of them fronting the railroad.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. There is a kind of a platform there?
A. The road runs along six feet below the bank, and then the bank runs back about fifty feet, and then the hill commences for one hundred or one and fifty feet above that.
Q. Did this crowd throw stones?
A. Yes; and just here I will give another reason why I believe that crowd to be strangers in the city of Pittsburgh. The most of our men here—our laboring men—wear dark clothes, but I saw men in that crowd with light pantaloons, and yellow pantaloons, and two men with velveteen coats, and those men seemed to me to be making the most noise down in front of the soldiers. At that time, in my mind, I thought they were tramps. Of course, I can't say that of the whole crowd, but I say that the men making the demonstrations were men of that class.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did that fire from the militia disperse the crowd?
A. Yes; in firing, very unfortunately, they fired over the heads of the people there, and killed the people above. If they had lowered their guns eight inches they would have killed a class of men that we could very well get rid of.
Q. Did they disperse?
A. Yes.
Q. In what direction?
A. Some went up the hill-side, and the mob in front of Twenty-eighth street, ran down Twenty-eighth street to Penn.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did the soldiers attempt to shoot at them as they ran up the bank?
A. Yes; I suppose the firing lasted a minute and a half. The soldiers began firing right down the line, and probably some of them fired four or five shots. When the crowd broke, they ran up among the people on the hill-side, and some of them ran into the ditch where I was. The rest of them went on up the hill-side. I noticed one thing, that the old soldiers dropped flat down when the firing commenced, while the others ran.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You mean the old soldiers in the crowd?
A. I mean that.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Do you think that force of soldiers, with twenty rounds of ammunition, could have held their position and kept the crowd off during the night?
A. Not as strangers, they could not do it. I mean this—had that force been posted as to the situation here, they could have done that—they could have kept the mob off with half their number; but not being acquainted, I think they did about the only thing they could do. The only thing lacking under the circumstances—I have had my own opinion since that time as to what I think I would have done, without any more knowledge of military affairs than I learned in the army, and I would have taken charge of this ditch that I was in, and have put the men in there for the purpose of controlling the round-house and the tracks below. But then there was a danger to be taken into consideration, that along the hill above this ditch, there were houses on the hill-side occupied by railroad men and by strikers, and by men in sympathy with them, so there would have been a danger there, because there would have been firing from the rear—in other words, if people had gone on the hill-side, and opened fire down from the hill-side, they would have had to abandon the ditch—or, on the other hand—my idea of the matter would have been to have picketed Penn avenue and Liberty street very heavily, and have kept those streets clear, from Twenty-eighth street clear down. When you consider that a crowd or a mob is always cowardly, so that the firing of eight or ten men into it will break it, I really believe that the best plan would have been to have picketed Penn avenue and Liberty street—to have kept these streets clear, and then if necessary, to have picketed the upper side of the railroad track, which would have formed a square of pickets, whereby to preserve the cars. Yet, at the same time, I will say that these picket lines would have been subjected to a fire from both sides—from the hill-side above, and from the houses below. I went home on the six o'clock train that evening.
Q. Could General Brinton have taken his troops then, and marched them down towards the Union depot, and kept the crowd back, or kept the crowd above?
A. No; but the mistake that General Brinton made was this, that when he began firing he should have kept it up.
Q. How long?
A. Until every man in the city of Pittsburgh was willing to stop.
Q. Do you think, in your judgment, with the number of men they had, with twenty rounds of ammunition, and with more ammunition over in the Union depot, that they could have maintained their ground there and kept up the firing, and kept the mob back, and kept up communications with Union depot, in order to replenish their ammunition?
A. If he had continued his firing from the time the firing began at Twenty-eighth street, most undoubtedly he could. But after that, when General Brinton got into the round-house, where there are open windows—the house is perfectly round—at that time he was at the mercy of every building.
Q. But I am speaking of the time before he went into the round-house, and after the crowd had dispersed—at that time had he continued firing, could he have maintained his position and kept the crowd away?
A. Yes; fifty men armed as those men were armed—because I noticed that every time a gun struck, it tore a hole like that. [Illustrating.] Following that mob would have dispersed them.
By Mr. Yutzy:
Q. Would not that have caused great loss of life?
A. Undoubtedly—if they had fired low.
Q. What is your avocation now?
A. I am a lawyer by profession.
Q. You practice at the bar here in this city?
A. Yes.
Q. From your experience in the army, and from what you saw of the conduct of the troops at Twenty-eighth street, would you say that their conduct was good as military men?
A. No, sir; not a bit of it. Every man that fired first should have been taken out and shot. In other words, I mean that there was not a particle of discipline. I say that for this reason: There was no order given to fire by any officer. I believe that to be the fact, because I was on the hill side not more than sixty or eighty feet away from where the firing began, and I had been there some two hours before the firing did begin. I was standing there wondering how the men were going to clear the tracks, and when the fight began I was listening very closely in order to hear what command would be given by the officer in command. Then this fuss began with three or four pistol shots, and then the bricks and stones were thrown, and then more pistol shots, and then it was every man for himself. So far as those soldiers were concerned, I have said since, and believe it to be a fact, that it was one mob armed against another mob not armed.
Q. Was not the conduct of those soldiers as good as could be expected from militia men?
A. I do not know that. I have seen militia men during the war that would walk up to the scratch, and stay there. The great trouble with militia men is that they fire too high.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Do you think there was any real necessity for calling on the militia for assistance here?
A. I would not like to give any opinion about that. I know that the sheriff started out a lot of his deputies to get a lot of lawyers out here, and the lawyers went out—of the back windows, and every other way they could get out. I never believed that the sheriff exhausted all his power.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. You believe, then, it was necessary to call out the military—that the difficulty had got beyond the control of the civil authorities?
A. I believe that. I believe it was necessary to call out the military—but to use them. In explanation of that, I would say this: that even after the military were here, that the city of Pittsburgh was panic struck, and that young men were taken up on the streets and were furnished with arms, privately by the different banks, to go in and guard the banks, because, on the Monday night following the burning, it was rumored on the streets—on Fifth avenue, and on Wood, and on Smithfield streets—that the banks were to be attacked that night, and I know of several banks in the city that were guarded by young men picked up throughout the city. I believe it to be a fact, that, had the trouble lasted two days longer, there would have been a vacation of the city by the women and the children in the city of Pittsburgh. I believe they would have gotten out of town.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. You state you spoke to some people about the probability of the troops firing on the crowd. Who were those people?
A. I cannot recollect.
Q. Were they part of the crowd—the strikers?
A. No.
At this point the committee adjourned to meet at three o'clock this afternoon.