Q. How large was the crowd that night?

A. Well, I cannot tell you that, because the cars not loaded with freight, as I said before, were all occupied. Some had four or five in, and some ten or twelve in. I cannot tell how many cars were full. At Twenty-eighth street, I judge that a thousand persons were there at that time, and all along, from Union depot to Twenty-eighth street, they were scattered.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Those cars you saw the men in, were they regular freight cars or caboose cars?

A. I saw them in both. One thing other I wish to impress on the committee, and that is this: I see that other evidence—by reading it in the papers—places those warrants for the arrest of those parties on Saturday, in my hands. It is not the case. They were in the hands of James Richardson, the constable, and I was only acting as a guard to assist him.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was he not appointed as one of your deputies?

A. No; I told him I would go myself, and give him some of my men to assist him. I took thirteen of my regular deputies and myself to assist him, and some other men not regularly connected with the office. The names of some of them I cannot recollect.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Would it then have been possible to have arrested those men?

A. No, sir; not unless the military had done it. Probably, General Brinton might have been able, but I do not know. There was about a mile of a solid packed mob.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. On Saturday?

A. Yes; the day we had the warrants.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Friday?

A. On Friday there was a large crowd. It was continually increasing. It increased from Thursday, and kept on increasing all the time, on Friday and Saturday.

Q. Were they all taking a part?

A. No; a portion were lookers on, but the sympathy appeared to be all with the strikers. But I must say, that I did not see many of those strikers. After we had gone out to Torrens station, I asked Mr. Pitcairn how many men he knew in those two crowds, at Twenty-eighth street and Torrens station, as belonging to the road. After studying awhile, he said: "Well, really, I think I only know four."

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You say the sympathy of all those gathered around was with the strikers?

A. It appeared to be.

Q. How extensive was that sympathy—to what extent was it carried among the people?

A. It was very extensive. In fact, I do hardly know any person whose sympathy was not with them. It went so far that on Saturday night, after the firing, parties were coming to my house and telling my family that they would be murdered or burned out before morning. My wife became alarmed, and in the street where I lived she could not get protection in any house. They would not let her in.

Q. Why?

A. Because they blamed me for being at the head of the soldiers, and for causing the killing of innocent parties. That was the reason they gave her—that they did not think they would be safe in letting her in.

Q. What street is that?

A. Washington street, Pittsburgh.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. On Thursday or Friday was this crowd boisterous or destroying things?

A. They were not destroying things. On Friday they were stopping all the trains coming in—stopping trains, and then hooking on locomotives and running the cattle cars, for instance, to Torrens station, and letting the cattle out in the field. In fact, Mr. Pitcairn will remember that we were ordered out of the locomotive that we were on, to let them run cattle out.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Not on Thursday and Friday, but after the firing occurred, how was the sympathy?

A. I think the sympathy was with the strikers from the first. I feel satisfied it was. But I am only giving you my own opinion.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. But you give that opinion, having formed it after intercourse with the people, and after being in the crowd?

A. Yes; I talked with a great many of them, and they appeared to think it was a hardship to reduce the wages and the numbers of the men, and also, once in a while, they would bring in this freight discrimination question.

Q. If you had had the warrants on Thursday night, could you have arrested those parties?

A. If I had had a posse of two hundred or two hundred and fifty I probably could have arrested them, but probably there would have been somebody killed. I believe on Thursday morning if I had had the number of police that Mayor McCarthy had, I could have arrested the leaders, and put in prison the disorderly parties, and that then the trouble would not have assumed the proportions it did. That is only my own idea of it.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Could it have been done on Thursday?

A. As I said before, I was out of Pittsburgh part of Thursday. I was called away on business.

Q. But from the time you became acquainted with the difficulty first?

A. On Thursday morning I saw the crowd gathering around, and I think then if I had had a force and had been called on to anything with the force that Mayor McCarthy had, I think I could have done some good, but on Thursday night at one o'clock, I do not think it could have been done.

Q. When those messages were brought in and read to the crowd as coming from other parties, were there any messages sent out to them in reply?

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. No responses were made to them?

A. There was considerable cheering.

Q. But were any answers sent?

A. No.

Q. Did those messages come in answer to messages that had been sent out?

A. I cannot answer that. I have given you about the purport of the messages. Probably if General Pearson shall be called he might recollect the purport a little distincter than I have.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Were those telegrams?

A. I think not. I didn't so understand it.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. There appeared to be an organization?

A. It looked to me in that light very much.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You stated one was from Wilkes-Barre?

A. Yes, and one from the Monongahela valley, and there was also one from Mansfield—that the coal miners there would be in in the morning.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Had you knowledge of any organization prior to this time?

A. Nothing that I could assert with any distinctness—nothing only rumor—while I firmly believe there was. Now I will give you another fact or instance to corroborate my theory: Some five weeks after the riot I was in St. Paul, and the mayor of St. Paul had gathered up thirteen tramps in a cave on the bank of the Mississippi river. I was at the hearing, and each one had a traveling sack or satchel, and they examined these satchels and there were goods like silk handkerchiefs, and so forth, in them. The mayor asked them where they got them, and they said, at Pittsburgh at the time of the riot, "How did you know there was going to be a riot there." "Oh! we knew it, and we were there." If you will telegraph to the mayor at St. Paul he will substantiate the fact.

Q. In regard to the extent of this sympathy with the strikers that you spoke of, I would like you to explain a little more upon that subject as to the extent of it, and as to what classes of people sympathized with the strikers?

A. The whole laboring class, so far as I know, were with the strikers in their sympathy.

Q. The entire laboring class?

A. Yes; I think so. Do not understand me to say that they were in sympathy with the riot. They were in sympathy with the men on account of their wages being reduced.

By Mr. Yutzy:

Q. With the railroad strikers?

A. Yes.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. But they were not opposed to the railroad company?

A. I do not know that, but it was just this way that the railroad men had their sympathy. Then there was another sympathy of the merchants to a certain extent with these men. They believed they were not paid right, and that the railroad company were not doing——

Q. Among what class of merchants?

A. Our better class.

Q. The entire classes?

A. No; but a portion of them.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was it sympathy with the strikers, or only prejudice against the railroad company?

A. I think they had sympathy and prejudice both.

Q. Do you think that any responsible portion of the people of Pittsburgh, whether laboring men or others, sympathized with the rioters after the difficulty had become a riot?

A. No; I think not. I would say here, that the responsible portion of the people of Pittsburgh were not in sympathy with the riot, but I would say, further, that it took a certain amount of riot to bring them to their senses. Something has been said in regard to seeing my solicitor. On Friday morning, I did see him at an early hour, and stated to him all I had done, and what I had done, and he advised me that I had done just exactly what he would have advised me to do. He stayed with me nearly all day Friday and Saturday. Before going up to Union depot in company with him, I walked down the street, looking for a posse to go along, and among other places we dropped in, was Air. Hampton's office. They two consulted, and both decided that I had acted in the right way. I am only satisfying you in regard to that. Those gentlemen, both, can be had at any time.

The following are the telegrams referred to in the foregoing testimony of Sheriff Fife:

Following is the dispatch above alluded to:

Hugh Y. Boyce, sworn with the uplifted hand:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You were a deputy sheriff in July last?

A. Yes.

Q. You reside where?

A. No. 551 Fifth avenue.

Q. State to us what knowledge you have of the disturbance, and when it commenced—give us a statement of the facts?

A. Coming in on Friday morning, from attending a sale, I met the sheriff and General Pearson, on Grant street or on Liberty street. I told the sheriff I was going to the office, and I asked where he was going, and he said he was going out the Pennsylvania railroad a short distance. I asked him if he wished me to go along, and he said he did. Then the sheriff and Mr. Pitcairn and General Pearson and myself went to Torrens station. The sheriff there addressed the crowd, as also did General Pearson. They gave some good advice, but they took no notice of it.

Q. How did you go out?

A. On a locomotive.

Q. How large a crowd was there?

A. Five or six hundred—I couldn't tell.

Q. What class of people were there?

A. A pretty hard class.

Q. Railroad men?

A. Some were railroad men, but they were not all railroad men.

Q. What were they doing?

A. Standing in groups talking, on the railroad track, and by the side of the railroad track.

Q. Were you interfered with in going out?

A. No; except the crowd hallooed at us as we went along.

Q. How large a crowd was at Twenty-eighth street?

A. I cannot say that—perhaps four or five hundred.

Q. What response did those men make to the sheriff's admonitions?

A. They said they would have bread or blood.

Q. Anything else?

A. Nothing; but they used very bad language.

Q. They refused to disperse, did they?

A. Yes; General Pearson made a neat, handsome little speech to them, but they paid no attention to it, nor to the sheriff either.

Q. Did you return without any interference?

A. Yes.

Q. What occurred next?

A. The next was on Saturday. In the morning, sometime, the sheriff called me into the office, and told me to get up some men to report at the Pennsylvania railroad depot.

Q. Did you go?

A. Yes.

Q. How many were with you?

A. I think about fifteen or sixteen; I am not certain about that.

Q. Tell us what took place?

A. This was on Friday afternoon. We went out that afternoon to the depot. They wanted some assistance in moving some trains. After I went there, they concluded not to move any, and I returned to the office; and on Saturday I went again, with Constable James Richardson, probably about one o'clock.

Q. With how many men?

A. Seventeen or eighteen men?

Q. Who collected the men?

A. The most of them belonged to the sheriff's office.

Q. Did you try to collect a posse?

A. Yes; but I found it very hard work.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You say it was hard work. Why?

A. Because the men didn't seem to be willing to give us their assistance.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What did they say when they were asked to go?

A. They said they would sooner go out and help the rioters.

Q. Did you get that response from any considerable number?

A. A few would answer in that way; others said that they had enough to do to attend to their own business.

Q. What class of men did you call on?

A. I called on citizens and on constables.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did any constables refuse to go?

A. Yes.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What excuse did they make?

A. They didn't wish to go out to get shot.

Q. What class of men said that they would sooner go out and help the rioters?

A. Well, laboring men.

Q. You say you called on constables and citizens. Citizens is a very broad term. Did you call on any professional men?

A. No.

Q. On business men?

A. Yes.

Q. What response did they make?

A. That they had to attend to their own business, and couldn't leave on account of it—it being a busy day on Saturday.

Q. You got to the depot about one o'clock?

A. I think so.

Q. Was any crowd about Union depot there?

A. Yes; and soldiers, too.

Q. Were there any riotous proceedings around the depot at that time?

A. Not at that time, but a crowd was there, but they didn't appear to be specially riotous at that time.

Q. Did you move down to Twenty-eighth street with the sheriff, ahead of the militia?

A. We did.

Q. You formed one of the sheriff's posse?

A. Yes.

Q. There were about sixteen of you?

A. About eighteen. There may have been more.

Q. Were you armed?

A. No; some of them had revolvers. I had one.

Q. You had no weapons in view?

A. No.

Q. What took place at Twenty-eighth street?

A. There was quite a large crowd of people there—rioters.

Q. What were they doing?

A. Talking, and hallooing, and making a great noise.

Q. Had they begun to destroy property in any way?

A. Not when we went there—at least not when I was there.

Q. What did the sheriff do?

A. The sheriff advised them to disperse and go home.

Q. Advised them or commanded them?

A. Commanded them.

Q. What response was made?

A. Nothing but vile language, and throwing stones, and brickbats, &c.

Q. Were those stones thrown at the sheriff's posse or at the militia?

A. Promiscuously—all around in that neighborhood.

Q. Did they hit any of the sheriffs posse?

A. Yes.

Q. Were any of them injured?

A. Not materially.

Q. Were any pistols fired?

A. Yes.

Q. How many shots were fired before the militia fired?

A. There may have been five or six.

Q. To what extent were the missiles thrown?

A. There was quite a shower of stones and brickbats.

Q. Was any command given to the militia to fire?

A. Not that I heard. I heard the command to charge bayonets, but no command to fire.

Q. Was the command to charge bayonets obeyed?

A. Yes.

Q. Did they drive back the crowd?

A. A very short distance.

Q. Did they drive them as long as they continued to charge?

A. Yes; they cleared the tracks.

Q. And drove them as far as they desired to?

A. I presume so, just at that time. Quite a number of the crowd—several of them—tried to take the muskets out of the hands of the soldiers.

Q. How did the firing by the militia commence—was it one shot—one shot or a volley?

A. One shot, and then another shot, and then two or three shots every second.

Q. A rattling volley?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it regular?

A. Yes.

Q. What effect did that have on the crowd?

A. It drove them away for the time being.

Q. Where did they assemble afterwards?

A. In different places down below Penn street and up on the hill.

Q. Did the crowd assemble between the depot and where the militia were then stationed?

A. I don't know.

Q. What became of you?

A. After the firing was over, probably three quarters of an hour, I came in Penn avenue.

Q. Did the posse remain together?

A. When the firing commenced we were standing immediately in front. It was too warm to stand there very long.

Q. Did the firing disperse the sheriff's posse, too?

A. Yes; it was a rather peculiar place to stand there.

Q. Do you know how many were killed there that evening?

A. I don't know the exact number now.

Q. Had you any knowledge of any pre-arranged purpose among those men to strike on that day?

A. I had not—only what you might judge from the crowds gathering there occasionally, at the corners, and on the railroad tracks, and different places.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was there any talk of striking among those men that gathered in crowds before the strike?

A. Yes; you could hear a great deal of talk about a strike, but nothing was said as to the time when it was going to take place.

Q. How long before this strike?

A. On Tuesday and Wednesday.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Who was the talk among?

A. Among the laboring classes—among the men that worked in the mills, and the glass houses, &c., and railroad men.

Q. Did you hear it before the news of the strike on the Baltimore and Ohio railroad?

A. No.

Q. It was not until after that that you heard talk of striking?

A. No.

Q. Prior to that you had heard nothing that would lead you to believe there was an organization for the purpose?

A. No.

Q. That was the subject of conversation, I suppose, among all classes—to some extent?

A. Yes; it was.

Conrad Upperman, sworn with the uplifted hand:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. In Penn avenue, between Thirty-third and Thirty-fourth streets.

Q. What was your occupation?

A. I was night foreman in the round-house.

Q. Were you on duty on Thursday night?

A. I was.

Q. State whether there was any disturbance about the round-house on that night.

A. There was none about the round-house at all. The only disturbances there were, took place out on the track, about Twenty-eighth street.

Q. What kind of a disturbance was it?

A. The railroad men and the others were combined—but they were not doing anything, except standing there in groups.

Q. During the night was the crowd noisy and boisterous?

A. Somewhat.

Q. You were in sight of them?

A. I was among them nearly all the time. On Thursday night, between eight and nine o'clock, I attempted to get out an engine to haul some stock, and I thought it was useless to attempt it without first seeing whether they would allow us to haul it. Mr. Watt told me in the office that they would allow us to haul the stock; but when I got among them they didn't seem very favorable to allowing it. So we talked to them some time, and at last they agreed that we could haul the stock. I brought the engine out myself; but before I could get her across Twenty-eighth street four or five hundred called out to me and hallowed—called out to me to take her back; but I got her across Twenty-eighth street, and, after talking to them, they got quiet, and agreed that I could haul the stock, provided a committee could go on the engine to see that we would not haul anything else. I then got two engineers, one to fire the engine, and one to run it, and they took the stock up that night; but a little later in the night a Pan Handle train came along, and that raised a terrible howl there about the stock, and they cut the engine loose; but at last they let the stock go as far as Lawrenceville, and then we got an engine to haul it away. In fact, they went along on the train.

Q. What complaints did the men make in your conversations with them?

A. They complained about the double-headers; that they would take a great many of them off; that it would take their work away at any rate, and they thought they might as well fight it.

Q. Were you in the round-house on Saturday night?

A. I was.

Q. Were you present when the firing occurred on Saturday afternoon?

A. No; I went home at six o'clock in the morning to take some sleep. I then went to the round-house between seven and eight o'clock. When I got there the soldiers were just entering. After they had got themselves stationed there, it was not long until the outside parties commenced firing into the round-house.

Q. With what?

A. With musketry.

Q. The rioters?

A. Yes; between eleven and twelve o'clock that night. There was a board pile between Twenty-sixth and Twenty-seventh streets, and a good many of them got in behind that, and they just rattled volley after volley into the round-house. I was standing there; but I thought it was too hot, and went to the other side. I then remained in the round-house until about twelve o'clock, and then told an officer that I would go out. He said I had better see General Brinton first, that I might do him some good. I saw General Brinton; but he had nothing to say, and I said nothing to him. I started to go out the back way of the carpenter shop; but there was a lot of rioters there, and we thought that it would not be safe, so we came on back to where the superintendent's office stood, and he proposed that I might go out the gate at Twenty-sixth street, and that he would tell his soldiers not to fire on me. The firing was going on at Twenty-sixth street. I got out then and went on home.

Q. Were you molested by the rioters?

A. Not then; but on Friday night or Saturday morning, between twelve and one o'clock, we were getting out two passenger engines to go east. It was not my business to know what the engines were going to haul. I got orders to get them out, and I went out in the street then and got two engineers and firemen, but a man came in and gave us to understand that the engines couldn't go, and I knew it was no use to argue the point with them, because there were four or five hundred of them there on Twenty-eighth street.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was that man a railroader?

A. Not at that time. I believe he had been suspended. He is in the work-house now. Then we had two engines coming west on the fast line that same night, and we cut one engine off and took the accommodation engine at Wall's, and let the accommodation engine bring the train in, and let the other engine go back to Altoona; but we found they had her blocked. I went to Twenty-eighth street, and they were pretty noisy at that time. Some of them came to me, and asked what kind of a hand I was taking in the matter. I told them I was not taking any more hand in it than I ought to, and they told me if I didn't get out right quick they would shoot me so full of holes that I couldn't get away. I found it was pretty hot, and I got away. On Friday morning, when the troops came there, there was not over twenty or thirty men at Twenty-eighth street. They seemed to go away, but after that, of course, they commenced gathering in groups, and I noticed the troops were not there very long until they were among them themselves. I noticed that morning, before I went home, that they were walking together in the street, our own men and the soldiers. I thought there was no use for those soldiers there.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. What morning was that?

A. Saturday morning.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. What troops were those?

A. The Pittsburgh troops. I was there Thursday night and Friday night and Saturday night until one o'clock.

Q. At Twenty-eighth street, were the same men there all the time from Thursday until Saturday—until the firing of the troops?

A. Yes; they were nearly about the same crowd. Of course, the crowd increased. On Friday night four or five thousand of them were there, but the crowd was orderly, and I never saw them molest anybody unless you wanted to do something—then they would drive you back.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Would it have been possible for the police to have made any arrests at that time?

A. I went out and looked at the crowd. I looked over the crowd and I thought if there were any police there they could have arrested the whole of them.

Q. Could a force of fifty good police have dispersed the mob?

A. They could on Thursday afternoon, when the first double-header was stopped. I think only about from twenty to twenty-five men were interfering with that train at all. It was just this way: I stood and looked on, but I had nothing to do with it. It was daylight, and I was on at night. There were four police on each engine, and a road foreman was on an engine, and the engineers and firemen, but they didn't seem to pull her out. I didn't see anybody with anything in their hands, but was informed that there were parties with links and pins in their hands, ready to throw in case they did start.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Do you know of any engineers or firemen being driven off their engines when there were policemen with them on the train?

A. I cannot say that I do. They got off, though.

Q. Did the police get off too?

A. They did, yes.

Q. You didn't see them driven off?

A. No, they hooted and hallooed a good bit.

Q. They got off—no links were thrown and no assaults were made?

A. Not when I was looking.

Q. How many police were on the engines?

A. Four on the first, and I think four on the second.

Q. They got off on account of the threats?

A. That is the only reason I would know for their getting off.

C. A. Fife, sworn with uplifted hand:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You are the son of Sheriff Fife?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you in the sheriff's office on Thursday, the 19th of July?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there any call upon the sheriff during that day for assistance in putting down the disturbance at Twenty-eighth street?

A. Not during that day, I do not think.

Q. During the evening?

A. I believe so, but I was not home.

Q. You were not out with him?

A. No.

Q. Were you out with him on Friday?

A. I was at Union depot on Friday.

Q. Was there any disturbance there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you out on Saturday?

A. Yes.

Q. At what time?

A. I was there when the militia went out, in the afternoon.

Q. Were you a member of the sheriff's posse?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell us what occurred there?

A. We walked into the crowd. The crowd would open for us to walk in, and then close around us.

Q. At what point was that?

A. Twenty-eighth street.

Q. The militia were immediately in your rear.

A. Yes.

Q. What did the sheriff say to the crowd?

A. He asked them to disperse.

Q. What response did they make?

A. I cannot say that. They hooted, and hallooed, and used vile language, and threw stones.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. They did not disperse?

A. No.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Who were the stones thrown at?

A. Both at the militia and us, but I cannot say exactly.

Q. Were any guns or pistols fired at you?

A. I heard pistol shots, but cannot say who they were fired at.

Q. Before the firing from the soldiers?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there any command given to fire?

A. Not that I heard.

Q. Where were you during Saturday night, after the shooting?

A. I was around through town here—no place in particular.

Q. Were you at your home?

A. Yes; then I was out on the hill above Twenty-eighth street.

Q. Was there anybody that offered violence to you?

A. No.

Q. Was any attempt made to burn the house of the sheriff?

A. I did not see anybody there, but I heard that there had been parties at the house.

Q. You saw nobody there?

A. I did not get home until near morning. I was out on the hill at Twenty-eighth street.

Q. Were any threats made that you heard?

A. I did not hear any, but I heard of them.

Q. Did you assist on Saturday in raising that posse?

A. I tried to get some parties.

Q. What efforts did you make?

A. I asked several parties to go out with us.

Q. What replies did you get?

A. I was refused wherever I asked anybody.

Q. What class of men did you call on?

A. I do not exactly remember now who I did ask—parties I would see around the court-house.

Q. You did not succeed in getting anybody?

A. No.

At this point the committee adjourned until to-morrow morning, at ten o'clock.

Orphans' Court Room,
Pittsburgh, Tuesday, February 12, 1878.

Pursuant to adjournment, the committee re-assembled at ten o'clock, A.M., this day, and continued the taking of testimony.

The first witness examined was:

Alexander E. McCandless, sworn with the uplifted hand:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. On Centre avenue, in this city.

Q. What is your profession?

A. I am a physician.

Q. State whether you were connected with the fire department last July?

A. I was a fire commissioner.

Q. What are the duties of the fire commissioners?

A. They are elected by city councils to take care of the fire department, and to elect the force, and to run it, and they have general supervision over the expenditure of the money.

Q. Do they control the movements of the fire department in case of a fire?

A. We have a chief engineer for that purpose.

Q. What was done by the fire department during the riot for the purpose of protecting the city or railroad companies' property from fire?

A. The first alarm of fire was struck about eleven o'clock on Saturday night, after the cars were set fire to. The fire department responded as soon as the alarm was struck, and started out to the fire, No. 7 engine, I believe, being the first on the way. At that time, I was on top of the hill overlooking the outer depot. I heard the alarm struck, and I heard the engine start, and then I heard the shouts of the mob, and could hear the gong of the engine as it was running. I then heard the engine stop, and could hear the oaths of the men all distinctly. Afterwards I went down into the crowd, and as the other engines came up, I saw them stopped by the mob there, who swore that if we did lay any hose, they would cut the hose, and shoot the drivers, and all that kind of a thing. The mob would not allow the fire department to put a drop of water on the company's property, and all that night we did not get to throw any. The following night when private property caught fire they allowed us to throw water on it, and did not interfere.

Q. Was private property protected pretty generally?

A. As well as it could be done, but it was so extensive that we could not protect it altogether; we had the force of the fire department cut down on account of the appropriations not being sufficient to run it a short time before that, and the result was that we were short of men.

Q. Was the private property fired by the mob, or did it catch from the railroad company's fire?

A. I cannot state that of my own knowledge.

Q. What seemed to be the disposition of the mob?

A. They were wild—perfectly mad, and appeared to want to burn everything or anything, especially the railroad property.

Q. This is Saturday night you speak of?

A. That evening—Saturday evening—we did not get to throw any water. But the chief engineer can give fuller details than I can about that.

Q. Did you call on the mayor for protection in any way for your fire department?

A. Not personally, but the chief of the department, I think, did.

Q. Was the fire department protected by the police?

A. No.

Q. During Saturday night or the day of Sunday?

A. Not that I know of. We were the only department that kept up any organization in this city at that time.

Q. You say you did keep up your organization?

A. Yes, perfectly, and we followed the line of the fire all the way down Liberty street clear to Union depot.

Q. During the entire riot you preserved your organization?

A. Yes. I was attacked once near the grain elevator. I was directing a stream of water on the hotel opposite, and they thought I wanted to put water on the elevator, and they attacked me; but I got away, as I was on horseback.

Q. If your fire department had been protected by the police, could you have controlled the fire?

A. We could at the inception of it—when they started burning the cars. Only one car was lit at that time.

Q. The fire department, you say, is under the control of a chief engineer?

A. Yes; he has supreme control of the fire department, and in case of a large fire he is assisted by the commissioners.

Q. Is he subject to the order of the mayor?

A. No; he is not. He has nothing to do with the mayor.

Q. He is subject to the orders of the commissioners?

A. Yes; he is directed by them, but he has supreme control of the fire department. If he wants the assistance of the commissioners he sends an alarm for them.

Q. In case the fire department needs protection, to whom ought you to look for that protection?

A. I suppose to the head of the police department of the city.

Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, whether any demand was made upon the chief of police for protection?

A. Not of my own knowledge.

Q. Is the fire department a paid department?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see the fire when it first started?

A. I saw the first of it—the first torch applied to the first car.

Q. Where was that car standing?

A. Beyond the round-house. And I thought they had an engine up there. They would fire one car and start it, and fire another car and start it, and fire another car and start it.

Q. Can you give us the street where it was?

A. I think they were all above Twenty-eighth street—the cars that were started.

Q. You thought they had an engine to start the cars?

A. I thought so—either that or a large gang of men. They started so rapidly.

Q. When those cars came down, where did they stop after they were started?

A. They came down—the whole yard was packed with cars down below the round-house, and they had the switches so arranged that they ran down to the round-house. They were trying to burn out the soldiers. It was very plain what their motive was.

Q. The motive, at first, was not to destroy the railroad company's property, but to burn out the soldiers?

A. That was the motive, to my mind, as I viewed it from the hill.

Q. What were those first cars loaded with?

A. I cannot tell that.

Q. With oil?

A. No; they were freight cars first that were fired. Afterwards they started the oil cars down.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. As the fire progressed on Sunday morning, what seemed to be the motive?

A. It was general destruction then. They started the oil cars early Sunday morning.

Q. What time did the troops get out of the round-house?

A. I did not see them come out. I only know from newspaper reports.

Q. Did you see the mob as it approached the depot with torches, and the burning of Union depot?

A. No; I was at work on another part of the fire.

Q. How large was the mob during Sunday?

A. It would be hard to form an estimate. It was an immense crowd, for squares on Liberty street, breaking cars open and stealing—ten thousand or fifteen thousand anyway—just streaming back over the hill, taking the things away. Thousands of them were carrying away everything imaginable, and going to the south side with them. They passed my house—crowds of them.

Q. Who were ahead—the men with the torches or the plundering posse?

A. The torches were first.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. In what manner did the mob interfere with your men?

A. They would not let them get to the fire.

Q. They stopped your men?

A. Yes; they just got ahead in front of the horses and caught the horses by the head, and swore they would shoot the drivers if they would go any further.

Q. But they did not assault your men?

A. They interfered in every way they could. One of our men caught a man going along with a sword-cane punching holes in the hose, and he knocked him down, and took it away from him. They have that cane now.

Q. Did you not have one of your fire engines in position to play on the fire when the police offered to protect you from the mob, but your men did not then play on the fire?

A. The chief engineer can tell you that. I was not present when that occurred.

Samuel M. Evans, sworn with the uplifted hand:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. At 190 Fourth avenue.

Q. What was your official connection with the fire department in July last?

A. I was the chief engineer.

Q. How long have you occupied that position?

A. Since last May. I was the assistant chief for two years, and the engineer of a company before that, and the foreman of a company before that. I then resigned for sometime, and was then elected engineer afterwards, and was then elected assistant chief engineer, and then elected chief.

Q. State when the first alarm of fire was given?

A. On Saturday night, about eleven o'clock.

Q. From whence did the fire proceed—what part of the city?

A. The corner of Twenty-sixth and Penn streets—it was there the box struck.

Q. What did you do?

A. When the alarm came I was in bed. They fetched my wagon to me, and I went out there, and when I got to Eleventh street—driving there—they got in my way—certain parties—and called out: "You son of a bitch, don't lay any hose—you son of a bitch." But I said to them, "you can go to hell;" and I started on. It was on the street, and I went at a pretty rapid gait. When I got out as far as the "Independent" house, Mr. Coates, one of the fire commissioners, said to me: "Sam, drive in here, quick." I drove then into the engine house, and then went to Twenty-eighth and Liberty streets where the mob was. I looked up and saw the fire. It was a car—it appeared to be an oil tank car. At first, No. 7 was between Twenty-second and Twenty-third streets on the right side of Penn, in the gutter. They had no fire in the engine, and I said: "Where's your fire?" And they told me they had put a pistol to the head of the fireman, and made him draw the fire. I told the engineer then to turn her around and take her down to the house and to fire up again. They went to the house, and I told them to stand there so as to be ready to go into service if we could get into service. Then they came up with a big gun on wheels—a cannon—pulling it along on the street. After they got up to where a few hose carriages were, they came to Twenty-third street—and I said, "what is the matter?" And all they said was to point the gun at us and said: "If you don't get out of that we'll blow you to hell." I said we had better come down here than go there. While I was standing there, an alarm came from East Liberty. I went out there, and when I went out there I thought probably it was the stock-yards, but I found it was a solitary house away down on Negley's run, a mile or a mile and a half from the railroad. Then I told the engine company at East Liberty to stay there in case they would burn Mr. Pitcairn's house, or set the stock-yards on fire, and that we would manage to get along without them. So they did not come in. Then I came in, and I think at eight minutes after three it was, when they sent a signal in that the fire was out. There was a big crowd on Liberty street, and somebody asked me to let them lay a line of hose to save Mr. Hardie's stable, and some property belonging to Mr. Denny. I told the foreman then of hose company No. 1, to lay a line of hose up Liberty street from Thirty-first street, and that if any stables got on fire, or any private property, to throw water on it. Then four men stopped me with guns, and asked me what I was going to do, and I said I was going to lay a line of hose; and they said, not a God damned line of hose. But I said to them that I was going to save private property, and then they said, that I could throw water on that, "but that if you throw any water on the company's fire we will shoot you and cut your hose," and everything else. While coming in they were carrying goods away from the cars. Everybody you would see, had a bundle on their shoulders or their heads.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. What time of night was this?

A. Between three and four o'clock in the morning. I came down to Twenty-third street, but we could not go into service at all. They were shooting at that time out of the machine shop and the round-house.

Q. Who were shooting?

A. The soldiers, and the others were shooting out of the board pile.

Q. Firing at the round-house?

A. Yes; they took this gun and planted it in the street to shoot into the round-house, and these men in the round-house, when they would go to sight this gun, would shoot them. They had this gun loaded with links and pins belonging to the railroad company. After the fire started, I think it could have been stopped before it set the round-house on fire. I think at that time it could have been stopped, because in the morning, about six or seven o'clock, they commenced running down the wall—a crowd of them—and then pushed the cars up along the Allegheny Valley track, and when they would come to a car afire—one man I noticed particularly jump up on a car, and stop it alongside of another car afire. Then when it would catch fire they would open the brakes, and let it go down to the round-house. Then they threw something out of the round-house, and stopped the cars there, and then they got to throwing water out of the round-house on the cars. I was down on the corner of Twenty-third street when two rough looking customers came down, and asked me where the place to stop the water off was. They said they are throwing water out of the round-house. I told them to go to the head of Twenty-sixth street on Liberty, and that they would see a big iron plate in the middle of the street, and that they should lift that up, and put their hands down and stop it off. They said they will pick us off, and they wanted to know if there was no place in Penn street to stop the water off. I said no.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You knew they could not stop it off?

A. Yes; I knew they were rioters, and if they went where I told them they would shoot them, perhaps.

Q. You did not give the information for the purpose of getting the water stopped off.

A. No; I knew that they could not stop it off.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Were these two men strangers?

A. Yes.

Q. You are very well acquainted about Pittsburgh?

A. Yes.

Q. Did this crowd—all of them—seem to be citizens?

A. Some of them did, and some did not.

Q. What were the citizens doing?

A. Standing there—a great many of them—but they were afraid to speak or to do anything for fear of getting hurt—those that felt like stopping it. A good many were arrested. I saw the "black maria" very busy taking men down to the station-house, and I asked the policemen how many were arrested, and they said one hundred and thirty or one hundred and forty, for stealing, and in the morning I asked a man what they did with them, and he said that the mayor had fined them three dollars and costs, and let them go. I said they were all thieves, and he said that nobody was there to identify the property. I said it was not necessary to identify stolen property.

Q. Did he get the three dollars out of them?

A. That is what the policeman said—three dollars and costs.

Q. He did not let them go until he got that?

A. That is what he told me.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. What time was the round-house set on fire?

A. About seven o'clock in the morning.

Q. How was it fired?

A. From cars on the Allegheny Valley railroad.

Q. Is that on Liberty street?

A. Yes; the track is on top of the wall until you come to a little piece on this side of Twenty-sixth street, and then it comes down and gets level with the payment—between Twenty-fifth and Twenty-sixth streets it begins to get on a level with the payment. These cars were stopped between Twenty-sixth and Twenty-seventh streets. One fireman told me—a fireman of Engine Company 8, in Philadelphia—that he got the water ready to throw, or was handling the line, when he said there was a car loaded with liquor in it burning, and it ran down into the cellar of the round-house, or the shop on the other side, and that that was what drove them out so that they could not do anything. When that liquor, burning, ran down into the cellar, it set the buildings on fire.

Q. Did any of your engines play on the fire on the railroad?

A. No; they would not let us. And we had as much as we could do after the fire started. As fast as the fire would come along we would move the engines down.

Q. How many engines had you?

A. Eleven of my own, and the chief engineer of Allegheny came over and fetched me three.

Q. They would not allow you to play on the railroad property.

A. No.

Q. Did you ask protection from the mayor?

A. I do not know that I saw him but once. He and Roger O'Mara came up Penn street in a buggy, and turned out Liberty, and then O'Mara came back some way without the mayor.

Q. Did you ask for protection?

A. No; I did not see anybody to ask.

Q. Do you know of any protection given to you by the police?

A. No protection at all, sir. If I could have got protection when I first went out to the fire, we could have kept the other cars from burning. We could have pulled them away sufficiently far to stop the oil tanks from setting any of the rest afire, and kept them cooled off.

Q. Do you think that the police force of the city could have protected you so that you could have played on the fire?

A. If they had not been demoralized, they could. If they had had a police like the New York police, they could have kept the crowd back.

Q. How many men would it have taken to protect you sufficiently?

A. After the fire got started, it would have taken right smart, but before that I think that one hundred and fifty or two hundred men could have stopped the whole thing, because police can do more than soldiers.

Q. We have testimony that the police offered to give protection to one engine?

A. Let the police come up and name the engine. I saw that in the papers.

Q. Do you know the parties referred to?

A. Motts and Goldsmith. They came out in the papers and said they went to one man named Kennedy, and told them that they would give protection, but I went and asked them, and they said that they never came to them at all.

Q. These gentlemen will testify to that?

A. Yes; I can have them at any time at all. I will fetch them to you. None of them came to me; and I am the proper person to come to for a purpose of that kind.

By Senator Reyburn.

Q. Were you about on Thursday or Friday?

A. No.

Q. You say that a couple of hundred or one hundred and fifty policemen could have driven the crowd back?

A. On Saturday, one hundred and fifty policemen, well armed, and staying together, could have moved the crowd away so that they could have moved the trains.

Q. But you were not there?

A. Not until Saturday night, when the alarm was given.

Q. On Saturday and Sunday morning, when you were there, were the police doing anything to prevent the pillaging?

A. After I came back from East Liberty, I saw the police arresting people for stealing. The "black maria" was busy taking them down to the station—the Twelfth ward station—and then running them down to the Central station.

Q. From what you saw, do you think it would have been possible for the police to have stopped it?

A. It would have been impossible for what was there to have stopped the mob. They could catch the people when carrying things off.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Were you a witness before the grand jury?

A. No; this is the first time I have been called upon.

By Mr. Englebert:

Q. Did you see any of the soldiers?

A. Yes; about the round-house. As soon as the soldiers went out of the round-house we went into service, and kept right on then. We could not go into service before, because they were firing both from the round-house and from the board-pile—the rioters.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. When the soldiers came out of the round-house, did they come out in ranks?

A. Yes. As soon as they came down on to Penn street, I noticed a squad on each side watching the houses and buildings and alleys, and the men with the Gatling gun were watching behind.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Were they well handled and marching orderly, or were they demoralized?

A. No. They marched out orderly. You could not have told from the way they looked that anything was the matter. I expected to see them come out and run every way, and I was astonished. When they began coming out everybody ran from them, but when they saw them come out in good order, and keep in a good line, then they began to stand still again—the people did.

Samuel A. Muckle, sworn with the uplifted hand:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. In the Twenty-third ward, Pittsburgh, at the present time.

Q. Where were you residing in July last?

A. In the Fourth ward, Allegheny city.

Q. What business were you engaged in all that time?

A. No business at all at that time. I was employed by the railroad before that.

Q. What position did you hold on the railroad before that?

A. Conductor.

Q. Of what road?

A. The Pan Handle.

Q. Passenger or freight?

A. Freight, at that time.

Q. Was there any pre-arranged plan among the railroad men for a strike?

A. None that I know of—if you speak of the strike that occurred in July.

Q. Yes?

A. None that I know of.

Q. Was there any arrangement being made among the men for a strike to take place then or any other time?

A. We had an organization here at that time, called the Trainmen's Union. Of course, if I have to answer all these questions, I am willing to answer them, if they do not conflict with this organization. Of course, I went into that organization, and I am under an obligation.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Oath bound?

A. Yes.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. It is a secret organization?

A. So far as our own business is concerned.

Q. As far as you can, you will give us what information you have upon the causes of this riot, and whether it was pre-arranged among the men?

A. The organization is not in existence to-day, but I still feel myself duty bound to the organization. I will answer this. There was a union called the Trainmen's Union—an organization—and there was a talk of a strike in June. It was to have taken place on the 27th day of June. That fell through, and with the strike in July, we had no business of that kind.

Q. What induced the men to arrange for a strike on the 27th of June?

A. This organization was gotten up for the benefit of the railroad men—for their own protection—for to protect them in anything that might be brought up.

Q. What class of railroad men?

A. The transportation department entirely.

Q. Including conductors and brakemen?

A. Yes; and engineers and firemen.

Q. Did it include any passenger conductors and brakemen?

A. Yes.

Q. The whole?

A. Yes; when I speak of transportation, I include the whole transportation department.