M^r Sherman, took notice that the States might want their militia for defence ag^st invasions and insurrections, and for enforcing obedience to their laws. They will not give up this point. In giving up that of taxation, they retain a concurrent power of raising money for their own use.

M^r Gerry thought this the last point remaining to be surrendered. If it be agreed to by the Convention, the plan will have as black a mark as was set on Cain. He had no such confidence in the Gen^l Gov^t as some gentlemen possessed, and believed it would be found that the States have not.

Col. Mason, thought there was great weight in the remarks of M^r Sherman, and moved an exception to his motion "of such part of the militia as might be required by the States for their own use."

M^r Read doubted the propriety of leaving the appointment of the Militia officers in the States. In some States they are elected by the Legislatures; in others by the people themselves. He thought at least an appointment by the State Executives ought to be insisted on.

On committing to the grand Committee last appointed, the latter motion of Col. Mason, & the original one revived by Ge^l Pinkney

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Adjourned.

Monday August 20. in Convention

M^r Pinkney submitted to the House, in order to be referred to the Committee of detail, the following propositions–"Each House shall be the judge of its own privileges, and shall have authority to punish by imprisonment every person violating the same, or who, in the place where the Legislature may be sitting and during the time of its Session, shall threaten any of its members for any thing said or done in the House; or who shall assault any of them therefor–or who shall assault or arrest any witness or other person ordered to attend either of the Houses in his way going or returning; or who shall rescue any person arrested by their order."

"Each branch of the Legislature, as well as the supreme Executive shall have authority to require the opinions of the supreme Judicial Court upon important questions of law, and upon solemn occasions."

"The privileges and benefit of the Writ of Habeas corpus shall be enjoyed in this Government in the most expeditious and ample manner; and shall not be suspended by the Legislature except upon the most urgent and pressing occasions, and for a limited time not exceeding –— months."

"The liberty of the Press, shall be inviolably preserved."

"No troops shall be kept up in time of peace, but by consent of the Legislature."

"The military shall always be subordinate to the Civil power, and no grants of money shall be made by the Legislature for supporting military Land forces, for more than one year at a time."

"No soldier shall be quartered in any house in time of peace without consent of the owner."

"No person holding the office of President of the U. S. a Judge of their supreme Court, Secretary for the department of Foreign Affairs, of Finance, of Marine, of War, or of –—, shall be capable of holding at the same time any other office of Trust or emolument under the U. S. or an individual State."

"No religious test or qualification shall ever be annexed to any oath of office under the authority of the U. S."

"The U. S. shall be forever considered as one Body corporate and politic in law, and entitled to all the rights privileges and immunities, which to Bodies corporate ought to or do appertain."

"The Legislature of the U. S. shall have the power of making the Great Seal which shall be kept by the President of the U. S. or in his absence by the President of the Senate, to be used by them as the occasion may require.–It shall be called the Great Seal of the U. S. and shall be affixed to all laws."

"All commissions and writs shall run in the name of the U.S."

"The Jurisdiction of the Supreme Court shall be extended to all controversies between the U. S. and an individual State, or the U. S. and the Citizens of an individual State."

These propositions were referred to the Committee of detail without debate or consideration of them by the House.

M^r Gov^r Morris 2^ded by M^r Pinkney, submitted the following propositions which were in like manner referred to the Committee of Detail.

"To assist the President in conducting the Public affairs there shall be a Council of State composed of the following officers—1. The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, who shall from time to time recommend such alterations of and additions to the laws of the U. S. as may in his opinion be necessary to the due administration of Justice, and such as may promote useful learning and inculcate sound morality throughout the Union: He shall be President of the Council in the absence of the President.

2. The Secretary of Domestic affairs who shall be appointed by the President and hold his office during pleasure. It shall be his duty to attend to matters of general police, the State of Agriculture and manufactures, the opening of roads and navigations, and the facilitating communications thro' the U. States; and he shall from time to time recommend such measures and establishments as may tend to promote those objects.

3. The Secretary of Commerce and Finance who shall also be appointed by the President during pleasure. It shall be his duty to superintend all matters relating to the public finances, to prepare & report plans of revenue and for the regulation of expenditures, and also to recommend such things as may in his Judgment promote the commercial interests of the U. S.

4. The Secretary of foreign affairs who shall also be appointed by the President during pleasure. It shall be his duty to correspond with all foreign Ministers, prepare plans of Treaties, & consider such as may be transmitted from abroad, and generally to attend to the interests of the U. S. in their connections with foreign powers.

5. The Secretary of War who shall also be appointed by the President during pleasure. It shall be his duty to superintend every thing relating to the war Department, such as the raising and equipping of troops, the care of military stores, public fortifications, arsenals & the like–also in time of war to prepare & recommend plans of offence and Defence.

6. The Secretary of the Marine who shall also be appointed during pleasure–It shall be his duty to superintend every thing relating to the Marine Department, the public ships, Dock Yards, naval Stores & arsenals–also in the time of war to prepare and recommend plans of offence and defence.

The President shall also appoint a Secretary of State to hold his office during pleasure; who shall be Secretary to the Council of State, and also public Secretary to the President. It shall be his duty to prepare all Public dispatches from the President which he shall countersign.

The President may from time to time submit any matter to the discussion of the Council of State, and he may require the written opinions of any one or more of the members: But he shall in all cases exercise his own judgment, and either Conform to such opinions or not as he may think proper; and every officer above mentioned shall be responsible for his opinion on the affairs relating to his particular Department.

Each of the officers above mentioned shall be liable to impeachment & removal from office for neglect of duty malversation or corruption."

M^r Gerry moved "that the Committee be instructed to report proper qualifications for the President, and a mode of trying the Supreme Judges in cases of impeachment."

The clause "to call forth the aid of the Militia &c. was postponed till report should be made as to the power over the Militia referred yesterday to the Grand Committee of eleven.

M^r Mason moved to enable Congress "to enact sumptuary laws." No Government can be maintained unless the manners be made consonant to it. Such a discretionary power may do good and can do no harm. A proper regulation of excises & of trade may do a great deal but it is best to have an express provision. It was objected to sumptuary laws that they were contrary to nature. This was a vulgar error. The love of distinction it is true is natural; but the object of sumptuary laws is not to extinguish this principle but to give it a proper direction.

M^r Elseworth. The best remedy is to enforce taxes & debts. As far as the regulation of eating & drinking can be reasonable, it is provided for in the power of taxation.

M^r Gov^r Morris argued that sumptuary laws tended to create a landed nobility, by fixing in the great-landholders and their posterity their present possessions.

M^r Gerry, the law of necessity is the best sumptuary law.

On Motion of M^r Mason "as to sumptuary laws"

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

"And to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested, by this Constitution, in the Government of the U. S. or any department or officer thereof."

M^r Madison and M^r Pinkney moved to insert between "laws" and "necessary" "and establish all offices," it appearing to them liable to cavil that the latter was not included in the former.

M^r Gov^r Morris, M^r Wilson, M^r Rutlidge and M^r Elseworth urged that the amendment could not be necessary.

On the motion for inserting "and establish all offices"

N. H. no. Mass. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

The clause as reported was then agreed to nem. con.

Art: VII Sect. 2. concerning Treason which see.

M^r Madison, thought the definition too narrow. It did not appear to go as far as the Stat. of Edw^d III. He did not see why more latitude might not be left to the Legislature. It w^d be as safe as in the hands of State legislatures. And it was inconvenient to bar a discretion which experience might enlighten, and which might be applied to good purposes as well as be abused.

M^r Mason was for pursuing the Stat: of Edw^d III.

M^r Gov^r Morris was for giving to the Union an exclusive right to declare what sh^d be treason. In case of a contest between the U. S. and a particular State, the people of the latter must under the disjunctive terms of the clause, be traitors to one or other authority.

M^r Randolph thought the clause defective in adopting the words, "in adhering" only. The British Stat: adds, "giving them aid and comfort" which had a more extensive meaning.

M^r Elseworth considered the definition as the same in fact with that of the Statute.

M^r Gov^r Morris "adhering" does not go so far as "giving aid and comfort" or the latter words may be restrictive of "adhering," in either case the Statute is not pursued.

M^r Wilson held "giving aid and comfort" to be explanatory, not operative words; and that it was better to omit them.

M^r Dickenson, thought the addition of "giving aid and comfort" unnecessary & improper; being too vague and extending too far. He wished to know what was meant by the "testimony of two witnesses" whether they were to be witnesses to the same overt act or to different overt acts. He thought also that proof of an overt act ought to be expressed as essential in the case.

Doc^r Johnson considered "giving aid & comfort" as explanatory of "adhering" & that something should be inserted in the definition concerning overt acts. He contended that Treason could not be both ag^st the U. States–and individual States; being an offence ag^st the Sovereignty which can be but one in the same community.

M^r Madison remarked that "and" before "in adhering" should be changed into "or" otherwise both offences viz. of "levying war," & of adhering to the Enemy might be necessary to constitute Treason. He added that, as the definition here was of treason against the U. S. it would seem that the individual States w^d be left in possession of a concurrent power so far as to define & punish treason particularly ag^st themselves; which might involve double punishm^t.

It was moved that the whole clause be recommitted which was lost, the votes being equally divided.

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. div^d. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

M^r Wilson & Doc^r Johnson moved, that "or any of them," after "United States" be struck out in order to remove the embarrassment; which was agreed to nem. con.

M^r Madison. This has not removed the embarrassment. The same Act might be treason ag^st the United States as here defined–and ag^st a particular State according to its laws.

M^r Elseworth. There can be no danger to the gen^l authority from this; as the laws of the U. States are to be paramount.

Doc^r Johnson was still of opinion there could be no Treason ag^st a particular State. It could not even at present, as the Confederation now stands, the Sovereignty being in the Union; much less can it be under the proposed system.

Col. Mason. The United States will have a qualified sovereignty only. The individual States will retain a part of the Sovereignty. An Act may be treason ag^st a particular State which is not so ag^st the U. States. He cited the Rebellion of Bacon in Virginia as an illustration of the doctrine.

Doc^r Johnson: That case would amount to Treason ag^st the Sovereign, the Supreme Sovereign, the United States.

M^r King observed that the controversy relating to Treason might be of less magnitude than was supposed; as the Legislature might punish capitally under other names than Treason.

M^r Gov^r Morris and M^r Randolph wished to substitute the words of the British Statute and moved to postpone Sect 2. art VII in order to consider the following substitute–"Whereas it is essential to the preservation of liberty to define precisely and exclusively what shall constitute the crime of Treason, it is therefore ordained, declared & established, that if a man do levy war ag^st the U. S. within their territories, or be adherent to the enemies of the U. S. within the said territories, giving them aid and comfort within their territories or elsewhere, and thereof be provably attainted of open deed by the people of his condition, he shall be adjudged guilty of Treason."

On this question

N. H.–Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

It was then moved to strike out "ag^st United States" after "treason" so as to define treason generally, and on this question

Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

It was then moved to insert after "two witnesses" the words "to the same overt act."

Doc^r Franklin wished this amendment to take place. prosecutions for treason were generally virulent; and perjury too easily made use of against innocence.

M^r Wilson. much may be said on both sides. Treason may sometimes be practised in such a manner, as to render proof extremely difficult–as in a traitorous correspondence with an Enemy.

On the question–as to some overt act

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r King moved to insert before the word "power" the word "sole," giving the U. States the exclusive right to declare the punishment of Treason.

M^r Broom 2^ds the motion.

M^r Wilson in cases of a general nature, treason can only be ag^st the U— States, and in such they sh^d have the sole right to declare the punishment–yet in many cases it may be otherwise. The subject was however intricate and he distrusted his present judgment on it.

M^r King this amendment results from the vote defining treason generally by striking out ag^st the U. States, which excludes any treason ag^st particular States. These may however punish offences as high misdemeanors.

On inserting the word "sole." It passed in the negative

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.—

M^r Wilson. the clause is ambiguous now. "Sole" ought either to have been inserted, or "against the U. S." to be re-instated.

M^r King no line can be drawn between levying war and adhering to enemy ag^st the U. States and ag^st an individual State–Treason ag^st the latter must be so ag^st the former.

M^r Sherman, resistance ag^st the laws of the U. States as distinguished from resistance ag^st the laws of a particular State, forms the line.

M^r Elseworth, the U. S. are sovereign on one side of the line dividing the jurisdictions–the States on the other–each ought to have power to defend their respective Sovereignties.

M^r Dickenson, war or insurrection ag^st a member of the Union must be so ag^st the whole body; but the constitution should be made clear on this point.

The clause was reconsidered nem. con–& then M^r Wilson & M^r Elseworth moved to reinstate "ag^st the U. S." after "Treason–" on which question

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison was not satisfied with the footing on which the clause now stood. As Treason ag^st the U. States involves treason ag^st particular States, and vice versa, the same act may be twice tried & punished by the different authorities. M^r Gov^r Morris viewed the matter in the same light—

It was moved & 2^ded to amend the sentence to read–"Treason ag^st the U. S. shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies" which was agreed to.

Col. Mason moved to insert the words "giving them aid and comfort," as restrictive of "adhering to their Enemies &c." the latter he thought would be otherwise too indefinite–This motion was agreed to: Con^t: Del: & Georgia only being in the Negative.

M^r L. Martin moved to insert after conviction &c.–"or on confession in open court"–and on the question (the negative States thinking the words superfluous) it was agreed to

N. H. ay. Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P. ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. div^d. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Art: VII. Sect. 2, as amended was then agreed to nem. con.

Sect. 3. taken up. "white & other" struck out nem. con. as superfluous.

M^r Elseworth moved to require the first census to be taken within "three" instead of "six" years from the first meeting of the Legislature–and on question

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r King asked what was the precise meaning of direct taxation? No one answ^d.

M^r Gerry moved to add to the 3^d Sect. Art: VII. the following clause "That from the first meeting of the Legislature of the U. S. until a Census shall be taken all monies for supplying the public Treasury by direct taxation shall be raised from the several States according to the number of their Representatives respectively in the first branch".

M^r Langdon. This would bear unreasonably hard on N. H. and he must be ag^st it.

M^r Carrol opposed it. The number of Rep^s did not admit of a proportion exact enough for a rule of taxation.

Before any question the House

Adjourned.

Tuesday August 21. in Convention

Governour Livingston [35] from the Committee of Eleven to whom was referred the propositions respecting the debts of the several States and also the Militia entered on the 18^th inst: delivered the following report:

"The Legislature of the U. S. shall have power to fulfil the engagements which have been entered into by Congress, and to discharge as well the debts of the U. S. as the debts incurred by the several States during the late war, for the common defence and general welfare."

"To make laws for organizing arming and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the U. S. reserving to the States respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by the U. States."

M^r Gerry considered giving the power only, without adopting the obligation, as destroying the security now enjoyed by the public creditors of the U— States. He enlarged on the merit of this class of citizens, and the solemn faith which had been pledged under the existing Confederation. If their situation should be changed as here proposed great opposition would be excited ag^st the plan. He urged also that as the States had made different degrees of exertion to sink their respective debts, those who had done most would be alarmed, if they were now to be saddled with a share of the debts of States which had done least.

M^r Sherman. It means neither more nor less than the confederation as it relates to this subject.

M^r Elseworth moved that the Report delivered in by Gov^r Livingston should lie on the table.–Agreed to nem. con.

Art: VII. Sect. 3 resumed.–M^r Dickinson moved to postpone this in order to reconsider Art: IV. Sect. 4. and to limit the number of representatives to be allowed to the large States. Unless this were done the small States would be reduced to entire insignificancy, and encouragement given to the importation of slaves.

M^r Sherman would agree to such a reconsideration, but did not see the necessity of postponing the section before the House.–M^r Dickenson withdrew his motion.

Art: VII. Sect 3. then agreed to 10 ays, Delaware alone being no.

M^r Sherman moved to add to Sect 3. the following clause "And all accounts of supplies furnished, services performed, and monies advanced by the several States to the U. States, or by the U. S. to the several States shall be adjusted by the same rule."

M^r Govern^r Morris 2^ds the motion.

M^r Ghorum, thought it wrong to insert this in the Constitution. The Legislature will no doubt do what is right. The present Congress have such a power and are now exercising it.

M^r Sherman unless some rule be expressly given none will exist under the new system.

M^r Elseworth. Though The contracts of Congress will be binding, there will be no rule for executing them on the States; and one ought to be provided.

M^r Sherman withdrew his motion to make way for one of M^r Williamson to add to Sect. 3. "By this rule the several quotas of the States shall be determined in settling the expences of the late war."

M^r Carrol brought into view the difficulty that might arise on this subject from the establishment of the Constitution as intended without the unanimous consent of the States.

M^r Williamson's motion was postponed nem. con.

Art: VI Sect. 12. which had been postponed of Aug: 15. was now called for by Col. Mason, who wished to know how the proposed amendment as to money bills would be decided, before he agreed to any further points.

M^r Gerry's motion of yesterday that previous to a census, direct taxation be proportioned on the States according to the number of Representatives, was taken up. He observed that the principal acts of Government would probably take place within that period, and it was but reasonable that the States should pay in proportion to their share in them.

M^r Elseworth thought such a rule unjust. There was a great difference between the number of Represent^s and the number of inhabitants as a rule in this case. Even if the former were proportioned as nearly as possible to the latter, it would be a very inaccurate rule. A State might have one Representative only that had inhabitants enough for 1-1/2 or more, if fractions could be applied, &c.—. He proposed to amend the motion by adding the words, "subject to a final liquidation by the foregoing rule when a census shall have been taken."

M^r Madison. The last appointment of Cong^s on which the number of Representatives was founded, was conjectural and meant only as a temporary rule till a Census should be established.

M^r Read. The requisitions of Cong^s had been accommodated to the impoverishment produced by the war; and to other local and temporary circumstances.

M^r Williamson opposed M^r Gerry's motion.

M^r Langdon was not here when N. H. was allowed three members. If it was more than her share; he did not wish for them.

M^r Butler contended warmly for M^r Gerry's motion as founded in reason and equity.

M^r Elseworth's proviso to M^r Gerry's motion was agreed to nem. con.

M^r King thought the power of taxation given to the Legislature rendered the motion of M^r Gerry altogether unnecessary.

On M^r Gerry's motion as amended

N. H. no. Mass. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. div^d. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On a question, Shall Art: VI Sect. 12. with the amendment to it proposed & entered on the 15 instant, as called for by Col. Mason be now taken up? It passed in the negative.

N. H. ay. Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r L. Martin. The power of taxation is most likely to be criticised by the public. Direct taxation should not be used but in cases of absolute necessity; and then the States will be the best Judges of the mode. He therefore moved the following addition to Sect: 3: Art VII "And whenever the Legislature of the U. S. shall find it necessary that revenue should be raised by direct taxation, having apportioned the same, according to the above rule on the several States, requisitions shall be made of the respective States to pay into the Continental Treasury their respective quotas within a time in the said requisitions specified; and in case of any of the States failing to comply with such requisitions, then and then only to devise and pass acts directing the mode, and authorizing the collection of the same."

M^r M^cHenry 2^ded the motion–there was no debate, and on the question

N. H. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. Pen^a no. Del. no. M^d div^d. (Jenifer & Carol no) V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Art. VII. Sect. 4.–M^r Langdon, by this section the States are left at liberty to tax exports. N. H. therefore with other non-exporting States, will be subject to be taxed by the States exporting its produce. This could not be admitted. It seems to be feared that the Northern States will oppress the trade of the Southⁿ. This may be guarded ag^st by requiring the concurrence of 2/3 or 3/4 of the legislature in such cases.

M^r Elseworth. It is best as it stands. The power of regulating trade between the States will protect them ag^st each other. Should this not be the case, the attempts of one to tax the produce of another passing through its hands, will force a direct exportation and defeat themselves. There are solid reasons ag^st Cong^s taxing exports. 1. it will discourage industry, as taxes on imports discourage luxury. 2. The produce of different States is such as to prevent uniformity in such taxes. There are indeed but a few articles that could be taxed at all; as Tob^o rice & indigo, and a tax on these alone would be partial & unjust. 3. The taxing of exports would engender incurable jealousies.

M^r Williamson. Tho' N. C. has been taxed by Virg^a by a duty on 12000 Hhs of her Tob^o exported thro' Virg^a yet he would never agree to this power. Should it take place, it would destroy the last hope of an adoption of the plan.

M^r Gov^r Morris. These local considerations ought not to impede the general interest. There is great weight in the argument, that the exporting States will tax the produce of their uncommercial neighbours. The power of regulating the trade between P^a & N. Jersey will never prevent the former from taxing the latter. Nor will such a tax force a direct exportation from N. Jersey. The advantages possessed by a large trading City, outweigh the disadvantage of a moderate duty; and will retain the trade in that channel. If no tax can be laid on exports, an embargo cannot be laid though in time of war such a measure may be of critical importance. Tobacco, lumber and live-stock are three objects belonging to different States, of which great advantage might be made by a power to tax exports. To these may be added Genseng and Masts for Ships by which a tax might be thrown on other nations. The idea of supplying the West Indies with lumber from Nova Scotia is one of the many follies of lord Sheffield's pamphlets. The State of the Country also will change, and render duties on exports, as skins, beaver & other peculiar raw materials, politic in the view of encouraging American manufactures.

M^r Butler was strenuously opposed to a power over exports, as unjust and alarming to the staple States.

M^r Langdon suggested a prohibition on the States from taxing the produce of other States exported from their harbours.

M^r Dickenson. The power of taxing exports may be inconvenient at present; but it must be of dangerous consequence to prohibit it with respect to all articles and for ever. He thought it would be better to except particular articles from the power.

M^r Sherman. It is best to prohibit the National legislature in all cases. The States will never give up all power over trade. An enumeration of particular articles would be difficult invidious and improper.

M^r Madison. As we ought to be governed by national and permanent views, it is a sufficient argument for giving y^e power over exports that a tax, tho' it may not be expedient at present, may be so hereafter. A proper regulation of exports may & probably will be necessary hereafter, and for the same purposes as the regulation of imports; viz, for revenue–domestic manufactures–and procuring equitable regulations from other nations. An Embargo may be of absolute necessity, and can alone be effectuated by the Gen^l authority. The regulation of trade between State and State cannot effect more than indirectly to hinder a State from taxing its own exports; by authorizing its Citizens to carry their commodities freely into a neighbouring State which might decline taxing exports in order to draw into its channel the trade of its neighbours. As to the fear of disproportionate burthens on the more exporting States, it might be remarked that it was agreed on all hands that the revenue w^d principally be drawn from trade, and as only a given revenue would be needed, it was not material whether all should be drawn wholly from imports–or half from those, and half from exports. The imports and exports must be pretty nearly equal in every State–and relatively the same among the different States.

M^r Elseworth did not conceive an embargo by the Congress interdicted by this section.

M^r M^cHenry conceived that power to be included in the power of war.

M^r Wilson. Pennsylvania exports the produce of Mary^d N. Jersey, Delaware & will by & by when the River Delaware is opened, export for N. York. In favoring the general power over exports therefore, he opposed the particular interest of his State. He remarked that the power had been attacked by reasoning which could only have held good in case the Gen^l Gov^t had been compelled, instead of authorized, to lay duties on exports. To deny this power is to take from the Common Gov^t half the regulation of trade. It was his opinion that a power over exports might be more effectual than that over imports in obtaining beneficial treaties of commerce.

M^r Gerry was strenuously opposed to the power over exports. It might be made use of to compel the States to comply with the will of the Gen^l Government, and to grant it any new powers which might be demanded. We have given it more power already than we know how will be exercised. It will enable the Gen^l Gov^t to oppress the States as much as Ireland is oppressed by Great Britain.

M^r Fitzimmons [36] would be ag^st a tax on exports to be laid immediately; but was for giving a power of laying the tax when a proper time may call for it. This would certainly be the case when America should become a manufacturing Country. He illustrated his argument by the duties in G. Britain on wool &c.

Col. Mason. If he were for reducing the States to mere corporations as seemed to be the tendency of some arguments, he should be for subjecting their exports as well as imports to a power of general taxation. He went on a principle often advanced & in which he concurred, that "a majority when interested will oppress the minority." This maxim had been verified by our own Legislature (of Virginia). If we compare the States in this point of view the 8 Northern States have an interest different from the five Southⁿ States; and have in one branch of the legislature 36 votes ag^st 29. and in the other in the proportion of 8 ag^st 5. The Southern States had therefore ground for their suspicions. The case of Exports was not the same with that of imports. The latter were the same throughout the States; the former very different. As to Tobacco other nations do raise it, and are capable of raising it as well as Virg^a &c. The impolicy of taxing that article had been demonstrated by the experiment of Virginia.

M^r Clymer [37] remarked that every State might reason with regard to its particular productions, in the same manner as the Southern States. The middle States may apprehend an oppression of their wheat flour, provisions &c. and with more reason, as these articles were exposed to a competition in foreign markets not incident to Tob^o rice &c. They may apprehend also combinations ag^st them between the Eastern & Southern States as much as the latter can apprehend them between the Eastern & middle. He moved as a qualification of the power of taxing Exports that it should be restrained to regulations of trade by inserting after the word "duty" sect 4 art VII the words, "for the purpose of revenue."

On question on M^r Clymer's motion

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Madison. In order to require 2/3 of each House to tax exports, as a lesser evil than a total prohibition moved to insert the words "unless by consent of two thirds of the Legislature."

M^r Wilson 2^ds and on this question, it passed in the Negative.

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no (Col. Mason, M^r Randolph M^r Blair no. Gen^l Washington & J. M. ay.) N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Question on Sect: 4. Art VII. as far as to "no tax sh^l be laid on exports"–it passed in the affirmative.

N. H. no. Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. (Gen^l W. & J. M. no) N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r L. Martin, proposed to vary the Sect: 4. art VII so as to allow a prohibition or tax on the importation of slaves. 1. as five slaves are to be counted as 3 free men in the apportionment of Representatives; such a clause would leave an encouragement to this trafic. 2. slaves weakened one part of the Union which the other parts were bound to protect; the privilege of importing them was therefore unreasonable. 3. it was inconsistent with the principles of the revolution and dishonorable to the American character to have such a feature in the Constitution.

M^r Rutlidge did not see how the importation of slaves could be encouraged by this section. He was not apprehensive of insurrections and would readily exempt the other States from the obligation to protect the Southern against them. Religion & humanity had nothing to do with this question. Interest alone is the governing principle with nations. The true question at present is whether the Southⁿ States shall or shall not be parties to the Union. If the Northern States consult their interest, they will not oppose the increase of slaves which will increase the commodities of which they will become the carriers.

M^r Elseworth was for leaving the clause as it stands, let every State import what it pleases. The morality or wisdom of slavery are considerations belonging to the States themselves. What enriches a part enriches the whole, and the States are the best judges of their particular interest. The old confederation had not meddled with this point, and he did not see any greater necessity for bringing it within the policy of the new one.

M^r Pinkney. South Carolina can never receive the plan if it prohibits the slave trade. In every proposed extension of the powers of Congress, that State has expressly & watchfully excepted that of meddling with the importation of negroes. If the States be all left at liberty on this subject, S. Carolina may perhaps by degrees do of herself what is wished, as Virginia & Maryland already have done.

Adjourned.

Wednesday August 22. in Convention.

Art VII sect 4. resumed. M^r Sherman was for leaving the clause as it stands. He disapproved of the slave trade; yet as the States were now possessed of the right to import slaves, as the public good did not require it to be taken from them, & as it was expedient to have as few objections as possible to the proposed scheme of Government, he thought it best to leave the matter as we find it. He observed that the abolition of Slavery seemed to be going on in the U. S. & that the good sense of the several States would probably by degrees compleat it. He urged on the Convention the necessity of despatching its business.

Col. Mason. This infernal traffic originated in the avarice of British Merchants. The British Gov^t constantly checked the attempts of Virginia to put a stop to it. The present question concerns not the importing States alone but the whole Union. The evil of having slaves was experienced during the late war. Had slaves been treated as they might have been by the Enemy, they would have proved dangerous instruments in their hands. But their folly dealt by the slaves, as it did by the Tories. He mentioned the dangerous insurrections of the slaves in Greece and Sicily; and the instructions given by Cromwell to the Commissioners sent to Virginia, to arm the servants & slaves, in case other means of obtaining its submission should fail. Maryland & Virginia he said had already prohibited the importation of slaves expressly. N. Carolina had done the same in substance. All this would be in vain, if s. Carolina & Georgia be at liberty to import. The Western people are already calling out for slaves for their new lands, and will fill that Country with slaves if they can be got thro' S. Carolina & Georgia. Slavery discourages arts & manufactures. The poor despise labor when performed by slaves. They prevent the immigration of Whites, who really enrich & strengthen a Country. They produce the most pernicious effect on manners. Every master of slaves is born a petty tyrant. They bring the judgment of heaven on a Country. As nations can not be rewarded or punished in the next world they must be in this. By an inevitable chain of causes & effects providence punishes national sins, by national calamities. He lamented that some of our Eastern brethren had from a lust of gain embarked in this nefarious traffic. As to the States being in possession of the Right to import, this was the case with many other rights, now to be properly given up. He held it essential in every point of view that the Gen^l Gov^t should have power to prevent the increase of slavery.

M^r Elseworth. As he had never owned a slave could not judge of the effects of slavery on character. He said however that if it was to be considered in a moral light we ought to go farther and free those already in the Country.–As slaves also multiply so fast in Virginia & Maryland that it is cheaper to raise than import them, whilst in the sickly rice swamps foreign supplies are necessary, if we go no farther than is urged, we shall be unjust towards S. Carolina & Georgia. Let us not intermeddle. As population increases, poor laborers will be so plenty as to render slaves useless. Slavery in time will not be a speck in our Country. Provision is already made in Connecticut for abolishing it. And the abolition has already taken place in Massachusetts. As to the danger of insurrections from foreign influence, that will become a motive to kind treatment of the slaves.

M^r Pinkney. If slavery be wrong, it is justified by the example of all the world. He cited the case of Greece Rome & other antient States; the sanction given by France England, Holland & other modern States. In all ages one half of mankind have been slaves. If the S. States were let alone they will probably of themselves stop importations. He w^d himself as a citizen of S. Carolina vote for it. An attempt to take away the right as proposed will produce serious objections to the Constitution which he wished to see adopted.

General Pinkney declared it to be his firm opinion that if himself & all his colleagues were to sign the Constitution & use their personal influence, it would be of no avail towards obtaining the assent of their Constituents. S. Carolina & Georgia cannot do without slaves. As to Virginia she will gain by stopping the importations. Her slaves will rise in value, & she has more than she wants. It would be unequal to require S. C. & Georgia to confederate on such unequal terms. He said the Royal assent before the Revolution had never been refused to S. Carolina as to Virginia. He contended that the importation of slaves would be for the interest of the whole Union. The more slaves, the more produce to employ the carrying trade; The more consumption also, and the more of this, the more revenue for the common treasury. He admitted it to be reasonable that slaves should be dutied like other imports, but should consider a rejection of the clause as an exclusion of S. Carol^a from the Union.

M^r Baldwin had conceived national objects alone to be before the Convention, not such as like the present were of a local nature. Georgia was decided on this point. That State has always hitherto supposed a Gen^l Governm^t to be the pursuit of the central States who wished to have a vortex for every thing–that her distance would preclude her from equal advantage–& that she could not prudently purchase it by yielding national powers. From this it might be understood in what light she would view an attempt to abridge one of her favorite prerogatives. If left to herself, she may probably put a stop to the evil. As one ground for this conjecture, he took notice of the sect of –— which he said was a respectable class of people, who carried their ethics beyond the mere equality of men, extending their humanity to the claims of the whole animal creation.

M^r Wilson observed that if S. C. & Georgia were themselves disposed to get rid of the importation of slaves in a short time as had been suggested, they would never refuse to Unite because the importation might be prohibited. As the section now stands all articles imported are to be taxed. Slaves alone are exempt. This is in fact a bounty on that article.

M^r Gerry thought we had nothing to do with the conduct of the States as to Slaves, but ought to be careful not to give any sanction to it.

M^r Dickenson considered it as inadmissible on every principle of honor & safety that the importation of slaves should be authorized to the States by the Constitution. The true question was whether the national happiness would be promoted or impeded by the importation, and this question ought to be left to the National Gov^t not to the States particularly interested. If Eng^d & France permit slavery, slaves are at the same time excluded from both those kingdoms. Greece and Rome were made unhappy by their slaves. He could not believe that the Southⁿ States would refuse to confederate on the account apprehended; especially as the power was not likely to be immediately exercised by the Gen^l Government.

M^r Williamson stated the law of N. Carolina on the subject, to-wit that it did not directly prohibit the importation of slaves. It imposed a duty of £5 on each slave imported from Africa, £10 on each from elsewhere, & £50 on each from a State licensing manumission. He thought the S. States could not be members of the Union if the clause sh^d be rejected, and that it was wrong to force any thing down not absolutely necessary, and which any State must disagree to.

M^r King thought the subject should be considered in a political light only. If two States will not agree to the Constitution as stated on one side, he could affirm with equal belief on the other, that great & equal opposition would be experienced from the other States. He remarked on the exemption of slaves from duty whilst every other import was subjected to it, as an inequality that could not fail to strike the commercial sagacity of the Northⁿ & Middle States.

M^r Langdon was strenuous for giving the power to the Gen^l Gov^t. He c^d not with a good conscience leave it with the States who could then go on with the traffic, without being restrained by the opinions here given that they will themselves cease to import slaves.

Gen^l Pinkney thought himself bound to declare candidly that he did not think S. Carolina would stop her importations of slaves in any short time, but only stop them occasionally as she now does. He moved to commit the clause that slaves might be made liable to an equal tax with other imports which he thought right & w^ch w^d remove one difficulty that had been started.

M^r Rutlidge. If the Convention thinks that N. C. S. C. & Georgia will ever agree to the plan, unless their right to import slaves be untouched, the expectation is vain. The people of those States will never be such fools as to give up so important an interest. He was strenuous ag^st striking out the section, and seconded the motion of Gen^l Pinkney for a commitment.

M^r Gov^r Morris wished the whole subject to be committed including the clauses relating to taxes on exports & to a navigation act. These things may form a bargain among the Northern & Southern States.

M^r Butler declared that he never would agree to the power of taxing exports.

M^r Sherman said it was better to let the S. States import slaves than to part with them, if they made that a sine qua non. He was opposed to a tax on slaves imported as making the matter worse, because it implied they were property. He acknowledged that if the power of prohibiting the importation should be given to the Gen^l Government that it would be exercised. He thought it would be its duty to exercise the power.

M^r Read was for the commitment provided the clause concerning taxes on exports should also be committed.

M^r Sherman observed that that clause had been agreed to & therefore could not be committed.

M^r Randolph was for committing in order that some middle ground might, if possible, be found. He could never agree to the clause as it stands. He w^d sooner risk the constitution. He dwelt on the dilemma to which the Convention was exposed. By agreeing to the clause, it would revolt the Quakers, the Methodists, and many others in the States having no slaves. On the other hand, two States might be lost to the Union. Let us then, he said, try the chance of a commitment.

On the question for committing the remaining part of Sect. 4 & 5. of Art: 7.

N. H. no. Mass. abt^t Con^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. Mary^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Pinkney & M^r Langdon moved to commit Sect. 6. as to navigation act by two thirds of each House.

M^r Gorham did not see the propriety of it. Is it meant to require a greater proportion of votes? He desired it to be remembered that the Eastern States had no motive to Union but a commercial one. They were able to protect themselves. They were not afraid of external danger, and did not need the aid of the Southⁿ States.

M^r Wilson wished for a commitment in order to reduce the proportion of votes required.

M^r Elseworth was for taking the plan as it is. This widening of opinions has a threatening aspect. If we do not agree on this middle & moderate ground he was afraid we should lose two States, with such others as may be disposed to stand aloof, should fly into a variety of shapes & directions, and most probably into several confederations and not without bloodshed.

On Question for committing 6 Sect. as to navigation act to a member from each State—

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The Committee appointed were M^r Langdon, King, Johnson, Livingston, Clymer, Dickenson, L. Martin, Madison, Williamson, C. C. Pinkney, & Baldwin.

To this committee were referred also the two clauses above mentioned, of the 4 & 5. Sect: of Art. 7.

M^r Rutlidge from the Committee to whom were referred on the 18 & 20^th instant the propositions of M^r Madison & M^r Pinkney made the Report following: [38]