Doc^r Johnson 2^ded the motion which was without debate agreed to, nem: con: and a Committee appointed, consisting of Col: Mason, Doc^r Franklin, M^r Dickenson, Doc^r Johnson and M^r Livingston. [94]

Col: Mason renewed his proposition of yesterday on the subject of inspection laws, with an additional clause giving to Congress a controul over them in case of abuse–as follows:

"Provided that no State shall be restrained from imposing the usual duties on produce exported from such State, for the sole purpose of defraying the charges of inspecting, packing, storing, and indemnifying the losses on such produce, while in the custody of public officers: but all such regulations shall in case of abuse, be subject to the revision and controul of Congress."

There was no debate & on the question

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

The Report from the committee of stile & arrangement, was taken up, in order to be compared with the articles of the plan as agreed to by the House & referred to the Committee, and to receive the final corrections and sanction of the Convention.

Art: 1, sect. 2. On motion of M^r Randolph the word "servitude" was struck out, and "service" unanimously [95] inserted, the former being thought to express the condition of slaves, & the latter the obligations of free persons.

M^r Dickenson & M^r Wilson moved to strike out, "and direct taxes," from sect. 2, art. 1, as improperly placed in a clause relating merely to the Constitution of the House of Representatives.

M^r Gov^r Morris. The insertion here was in consequence of what had passed on this point; in order to exclude the appearance of counting the negroes in the Representation. The including of them may now be referred to the object of direct taxes, and incidentally only to that of Representation.

On the motion to strike out "and direct taxes" from this place

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J.. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Art. 1, sect. 7.–"if any bill shall not be returned by the president within ten days (sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him &c."

M^r Madison moved to insert between "after" and "it" in sect. 7, Art. 1 the words "the day on which," in order to prevent a question whether the day on which the bill be presented ought to be counted or not as one of the ten days.

M^r Randolph 2^ded the motion.

M^r Governe^r Morris. The amendment is unnecessary. The law knows no fractions of days.

A number of members being very impatient & calling for the question

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.—

Doc^r Johnson made a further report from the Committee of stile &c. of the following resolutions to be substituted for 22 & 23 articles.

"Resolved that the preceding Constitution be laid before the U. States in Congress assembled, and that it is the opinion of this Convention, that it should afterwards be submitted to a Convention of Delegates chosen in each State by the people thereof, under the recommendation of its Legislature, for their assent & ratification; & that each Convention assenting & ratifying the same should give notice thereof to the U. S. in Cong^s assembled.

"Resolved that it is the opinion of this Convention that as soon as the Conventions of nine States, shall have ratified this Constitution, the U. S. in Cong^s assembled should fix a day on which electors should be appointed by the States which shall have ratified the same; and a day on which the Electors should assemble to vote for the President; and the time and place for commencing proceedings under this Constitution–That after such publication the Electors should be appointed, and the Senators and Representatives elected: That the Electors should meet on the day fixed for the election of the President, and should transmit their votes certified signed, sealed and directed, as the Constitution requires, to the Secretary of the U. States in Cong^s assembled: that the Senators and Representatives should convene at the time & place assigned: that the Senators should appoint a President for the sole purpose of receiving, opening, and counting the votes for President, and that after he shall be chosen, the Congress, together with the President should without delay proceed to execute this Constitution."

Adjourned.

Friday Sep^r 14^th. 1787. In Convention

The Report of the Committee of stile & arrangement being resumed,

M^r Williamson moved to reconsider in order to increase the number of Representatives fixed for the first Legislature. His purpose was to make an addition of one half generally to the number allotted to the respective States; and to allow two to the smallest States.

On this motion

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Art. I. sect. 3. the words "by lot" [96] were struck out nem: con: on motion of M^r Madison, that some rule might prevail in the rotation that would prevent both the members from the same State from going out at the same time.

"Ex officio" struck out of the same section as superfluous; nem: con; and "or affirmation" after "oath" inserted also unanimously.

M^r Rutlidge and M^r Gov^r Morris moved "that persons impeached be suspended from their office until they be tried and acquitted."

M^r Madison. The President is made too dependent already on the Legislature by the power of one branch to try him in consequence of an impeachment by the other. This intermediate suspension, will put him in the power of one branch only. They can at any moment, in order to make way for the functions of another who will be more favorable to their views, vote a temporary removal of the existing magistrate.

M^r King concurred in the opposition to the amendment.

On the question to agree to it

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del.no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Art. I. sect. 4. "except as to the places of choosing Senators" was added nem: con: to the end of the first clause, in order to exempt the seats of Gov^t in the States from the power of Congress.

Art. I. Sect. 5. "Each House shall keep a Journal of its proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such parts as may in their judgment require secrecy."

Col: Mason & M^r Gerry moved to insert after the word "parts," the words "of the proceedings of the Senate" so as to require publication of all the proceedings of the House of Representatives.

It was intimated on the other side that cases might arise where secrecy might be necessary in both Houses. Measures preparatory to a declaration of war in which the House of Rep^s was to concur, were instanced.

On the question, it passed in the negative.

N. H. no. (Rh. I. abs.) Mas. no. Con: no,(N. Y. abs.) N. J. no. Pen. ay. Del. no. Mary. ay. Virg. no. N. C. ay. S. C. div^d. Geor. no.

M^r Baldwin observed that the clause, Art. I. Sect. 6. declaring that no member of Cong^s "during the time for which he was elected, shall be appointed to any Civil office under the authority of the U. S. which shall have been created, or the emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time," would not extend to offices created by the Constitution; and the salaries of which would be created, not increased by Cong^s at their first session. The members of the first Cong^s consequently might evade the disqualification in this instance.–He was neither seconded nor opposed; nor did any thing further pass on the subject.

Art. I. Sect. 8. The Congress "may by joint ballot appoint a Treasurer"

M^r Rutlidge moved to strike out this power, and let the Treasurer be appointed in the same manner with other officers.

M^r Gorham & M^r King said that the motion, if agreed to, would have a mischievous tendency. The people are accustomed & attached to that mode of appointing Treasurers, and the innovation will multiply objections to the system.

M^r Gov^r Morris remarked that if the Treasurer be not appointed by the Legislature, he will be more narrowly watched, and more readily impeached.

M^r Sherman. As the two Houses appropriate money, it is best for them to appoint the officer who is to keep it; and to appoint him as they make the appropriation, not by joint but several votes.

Gen^l Pinkney. The Treasurer is appointed by joint ballot in South Carolina. The consequence is that bad appointments are made, and the Legislature will not listen to the faults of their own officer.

On the motion to strike out

N. H. ay. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Art I sect. 8. "but all such duties imposts & excises, shall be uniform throughout the U. S." were unanimously annexed to the power of taxation.

To define & punish piracies and felonies on the high seas, and "punish" offences against the law of nations.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to strike out "punish" before the words "offences ag^st the law of nations," so as to let these be definable as well as punishable, by virtue of the preceding member of the sentence.

M^r Wilson hoped the alteration would by no means be made. To pretend to define the law of nations which depended on the authority of all the civilized nations of the world, would have a look of arrogance, that would make us ridiculous.

M^r Gov^r Morris. The word define is proper when applied to offences in this case; the law of nations being often too vague and deficient to be a rule.

On the question to strike out the word "punish" it passed in the affirmative

N. H. ay. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

Doc^r Franklin moved [97] to add after the words "post roads" Art. I. Sect. 8. "a power to provide for cutting canals where deemed necessary."

Wilson 2^ded the motion.

M^r Sherman objected. The expence in such cases will fall on the U. States, and the benefit accrue to the places where the canals may be cut.

M^r Wilson. Instead of being an expence to the U. S. they may be made a source of revenue.

M^r Madison suggested an enlargement of the motion into a power "to grant charters of incorporation where the interest of the U. S. might require & the legislative provisions of individual States may be incompetent." His primary object was however to secure an easy communication between the States which the free intercourse now to be opened, seemed to call for. The political obstacles being removed, a removal of the natural ones as far as possible ought to follow. M^r Randolph 2^ded the proposition.

M^r King thought the power unnecessary.

M^r Wilson. It is necessary to prevent a State from obstructing the general welfare.

M^r King. The States will be prejudiced and divided into parties by it. In Philad^a & New York. It will be referred to the establishment of a Bank, which has been a subject of contention in those Cities. In other places it will be referred to mercantile monopolies.

M^r Wilson mentioned the importance of facilitating by canals, the communication with the Western settlements. As to Banks he did not think with M^r King that the power in that point of view would excite the prejudices & parties apprehended. As to mercantile monopolies they are already included in the power to regulate trade.

Col: Mason was for limiting the power to the single case of Canals. He was afraid of monopolies of every sort, which he did not think were by any means already implied by the Constitution as supposed by M^r Wilson.

The motion being so modified as to admit a distinct question specifying & limited to the case of canals,

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

The other part fell of course, as including the power rejected.

M^r Madison & M^r Pinkney then moved to insert in the list of powers vested in Congress a power–"to establish an University, in which no preferences or distinctions should be allowed on account of Religion."

M^r Wilson supported the motion.

M^r Gov^r Morris. It is not necessary. The exclusive power at the Seat of Government, will reach the object.

On the question

N. H. no. Mas. no. Con^t div^d. D^r Johnson ay. M^r Sherman no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

Col: Mason, being sensible that an absolute prohibition of standing armies in time of peace might be unsafe, and wishing at the same time to insert something pointing out and guarding against the danger of them, moved to preface the clause (Art. 1 sect. 8) "To provide for organizing, arming and disciplining the militia &c." with the words "And that the liberties of the people may be better secured against the danger of standing armies in time of peace." M^r Randolph 2^ded the motion.

M^r Madison was in favor of it. It did not restrain Congress from establishing a military force in time of peace if found necessary; and as armies in time of peace are allowed on all hands to be an evil, it is well to discountenance them by the Constitution, as far as will consist with the essential power of the Gov^t on that head.

M^r Gov^r Morris opposed the motion as setting a dishonorable mark of distinction on the military class of Citizens.

M^r Pinkney & M^r Bedford concurred in the opposition.

On the question

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Mar^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

Col: Mason moved to strike out from the clause (art. 1 sect 9.) "no bill of attainder nor any ex post facto law shall be passed" the words "nor any ex post facto law." He thought it not sufficiently clear that the prohibition meant by this phrase was limited to cases of a criminal nature, and no Legislature ever did or can altogether avoid them in Civil cases.

M^r Gerry 2^ded the motion but with a view to extend the prohibition to "civil cases," which he thought ought to be done.

On the question; all the States were–no.

M^r Pinkney & M^r Gerry, moved to insert a declaration "that the liberty of the Press should be inviolably observed."

M^r Sherman. It is unnecessary. The power of Congress does not extend to the Press. On the question, it passed in the negative

N. H. [98] no. Mas. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

Art 1. Sect. 9. "no capitation tax shall be laid, unless &c."

M^r Read moved to insert after "capitation" the words, "or other direct tax." He was afraid that some liberty might otherwise be taken to saddle the States, with a readjustment by this rule, of past requisitions of Cong^s–and that his amendment by giving another cast to the meaning would take away the pretext. M^r Williamson 2^ded the motion which was agreed to. On motion of Col: Mason "or enumeration" inserted after, as explanatory of "Census" Con. & S. C. only, no. [99]

At the end of the clause "no tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any State" was added the following amendment conformably to a vote on the [31] of [August] viz–no preference shall be given by any regulation of commerce or revenue to the ports of one State over those of another: nor shall vessels bound to or from one State, be obliged to enter, clear or pay duties in another.

Col. Mason moved a clause requiring "that an Account of the public expenditures should be annually published" M^r Gerry 2^ded the motion,

M^r Gov^r Morris urged that this w^d be impossible in many cases.

M^r King remarked, that the term expenditures went to every minute shilling. This would be impracticable. Cong^s might indeed make a monthly publication, but it would be in such general statements as would afford no satisfactory information.

M^r Madison proposed to strike out "annually" from the motion & insert "from time to time," which would enjoin the duty of frequent publications and leave enough to the discretion of the Legislature. Require too much and the difficulty will beget a habit of doing nothing. The articles of Confederation require halfyearly publications on this subject. A punctual compliance being often impossible, the practice has ceased altogether.

M^r Wilson 2^ded. & supported the motion. Many operations of finance cannot be properly published at certain times.

M^r Pinkney was in favor of the motion.

M^r Fitzimmons. It is absolutely impossible to publish expenditures in the full extent of the term.

M^r Sherman thought "from time to time" the best rule to be given.

"Annual" was struck out–& those words–inserted nem: con:

The motion of Col: Mason so amended was then agreed to nem: con: and added after–"appropriations by law" as follows–"And a regular statement and account of the receipts & expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time."

The first clause of Art. 1 Sect. 10–was altered so as to read–"no State shall enter into any Treaty alliance or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make any thing but gold & silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility."

M^r Gerry entered into observations inculcating the importance of public faith, and the propriety of the restraint put on the States from impairing the obligation of contracts, alledging that Congress ought to be laid under the like prohibitions, he made a motion to that effect. He was not 2^ded.

Adjourned.

Saturday Sep^r 15^th. 1787. In Convention

M^r Carrol reminded the House that no address to the people had yet been prepared. He considered it of great importance that such an one should accompany the Constitution. The people had been accustomed to such on great occasions, and would expect it on this. He moved that a Committee be appointed for the special purpose of preparing an address.

M^r Rutlidge objected on account of the delay it would produce and the impropriety of addressing the people before it was known whether Congress would approve and support the plan. Congress if an address be thought proper can prepare as good a one. The members of the Convention can also explain the reasons of what has been done to their respective Constituents.

M^r Sherman concurred in the opinion that an address was both unnecessary and improper.

On the motion of M^r Carrol

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. [100] abs^t. S. C.[100] no. Geo. no.

M^r Langdon. Some gentlemen have been very uneasy that no increase of the number of Representatives has been admitted. It has in particular been thought that one more ought to be allowed to N. Carolina. He was of opinion that an additional one was due both to that State and to Rho: Island, & moved to reconsider for that purpose.

M^r Sherman. When the Committee of eleven reported the apportionment–five Representatives were thought the proper share of N. Carolina. Subsequent information however seemed to entitle that State to another.

On the motion to reconsider

N. H. ay. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. Pen. div^d. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Langdon moved to add 1 member to each of the Representations of N. Carolina & Rho: Island. [101]

M^r King was ag^st any change whatever as opening the door for delays. There had been no official proof that the numbers of N. C. are greater than before estimated, and he never could sign the Constitution if Rho: Island is to be allowed two members that is one fourth of the number allowed to Massts., which will be known to be unjust.

M^r Pinkney urged the propriety of increasing the number of Rep^s allotted to N. Carolina.

M^r Bedford contended for an increase in favor of Rho: Island, and of Delaware also it passed in the negative.

On the question for allowing two Rep^s to Rho: Island, it passed in the negative.

N. H. ay. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

On the question for allowing six to N. Carolina, it passed in the negative

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Art 1. Sect. 10. (paragraph 2) "No State shall, without the consent of Congress lay imposts or duties on imports or exports; nor with such consent, but to the use of the Treasury of the U. States."

In consequence of the proviso moved by Col: Mason; and agreed to on the 13 Sep^r, this part of the section was laid aside in favor of the following substitute viz: "No State shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing its Inspection laws; and the nett produce of all duties and imposts, laid by any State on imports or exports, shall be for the use of the Treasury of the U. S.; and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and controul of the Congress"

On a motion to strike out the last part "and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and controul of the Congress" it passed in the negative.

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a div^d. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

The substitute was then agreed to; Virg^a alone being in the negative.

The remainder of the paragraph being under consideration–viz–"nor keep troops nor ships of war in time of peace, nor enter into any agreement or compact with another State, nor with any foreign power. Nor engage in any war, unless it shall be actually invaded by enemies, or the danger of invasion be so imminent as not to admit of delay, until Congress can be consulted."

M^r M^cHenry & M^r Carrol moved that "no State shall be restrained from laying duties of tonnage for the purpose of clearing harbours and erecting lighthouses."

Col. Mason in support of this explained and urged the situation of the Chesapeak which peculiarly required expences of this sort.

M^r Gov^r Morris. The States are not restrained from laying tonnage as the Constitution now stands. The exception proposed will imply the contrary, and will put the States in a worse condition than the gentleman (Col. Mason) wishes.

M^r Madison. Whether the States are now restrained from laying tonnage duties, depends on the extent of the power "to regulate commerce." These terms are vague, but seem to exclude this power of the States. They may certainly be restrained by Treaty. He observed that there were other objects for tonnage Duties as the support of seamen &c. He was more & more convinced that the regulation of Commerce was in its nature indivisible and ought to be wholly under one authority.

M^r Sherman. The power of the U. States to regulate trade being supreme can controul interferences of the State regulations when such interferences happen; so that there is no danger to be apprehended from a concurrent jurisdiction.

M^r Langdon insisted that the regulation of tonnage was an essential part of the regulation of trade, and that the States ought to have nothing to do with it. On motion "that no State shall lay any duty on tonnage without the consent of Congress."

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t div^d. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

The remainder of the paragraph was then remoulded and passed as follows viz–"No State shall without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another State, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay."

Art II. sect. 1. (paragraph 6) "or the period for chusing another president arrive" were changed into "or a President shall be elected" conformably to a vote of the –— of –—.

M^r Rutlidge and Doc^r Franklin moved to annex to the end of paragraph 7. Sect. 1. Art II–"and he (the President) shall not receive, within that period, any other emolument from the U. S. or any of them." on which question

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo.–ay.

Art: II. Sect. 2. "he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offences against the U. s. &c."

M^r Randolph moved to except "cases of treason." The prerogative of pardon in these cases was too great a trust. The President may himself be guilty. The Traitors may be his own instruments.

Col: Mason supported the motion.

M^r Gov^r Morris had rather there should be no pardon for treason, than let the power devolve on the Legislature.

M^r Wilson. Pardon is necessary for cases of treason, and is best placed in the hands of the Executive. If he be himself a party to the guilt he can be impeached and prosecuted.

M^r King thought it would be inconsistent with the Constitutional separation of the Executive & Legislative powers to let the prerogative be exercised by the latter. A Legislative body is utterly unfit for the purpose. They are governed too much by the passions of the moment. In Massachusetts, one assembly would have hung all the insurgents in that State: the next was equally disposed to pardon them all. He suggested the expedient of requiring the concurrence of the Senate in acts of Pardon.

M^r Madison admitted the force of objections to the Legislature, but the pardon of treasons was so peculiarly improper for the President that he should acquiesce in the transfer of it to the former, rather than leave it altogether in the hands of the latter. He would prefer to either an association of the Senate as a Council of advice, with the President.

M^r Randolph could not admit the Senate into a share of the power. The great danger to liberty lay in a combination between the President & that body.

Col: Mason. The Senate has already too much power. There can be no danger of too much lenity in legislative pardons, as the Senate must concur, & the President moreover can require 2/3 of both Houses.

On the motion of M^r Randolph

N. H. no.–Mas. no. C^t div^d. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

Art II. Sect. 2. (paragraph 2) To the end of this, M^r Govern^r Morris moved to annex "but the Congress may by law vest the appointment of such inferior officers as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of law, or in the heads of Departments." M^r Sherman 2^ded the motion.

M^r Madison. It does not go far enough if it be necessary at all. Superior officers below Heads of Departments ought in some cases to have the appointment of the lesser offices.

M^r Gov^r Morris. There is no necessity. Blank commissions can be sent—

On the motion

N. H. ay. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d div^d. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

The motion being lost by an equal division of votes. It was urged that it be put a second time some such provision being too necessary to be omitted, and on a second question it was agreed to nem: con.

Art. II. Sect. 1. The words "and not per capita" were struck out as superfluous and the words "by the Representatives" also–as improper, the choice of President being in another mode as well as eventually by the House of Rep^s.

Art II. Sect. 2. After "officers of the U. S. whose appointments are not otherwise provided for," were added the words "and which shall be established by law."

Art III. Sect. 2. parag: 3. M^r Pinkney & M^r Gerry moved to annex to the end, "And a trial by jury shall be preserved as usual in civil cases."

M^r Gorham. The constitution of Juries is different in different States and the trial itself is usual in different cases in different States.

M^r King urged the same objections.

Gen^l Pinkney also. He thought such a clause in the Constitution would be pregnant with embarrassments.

The motion was disagreed to nem: con:

Art. IV. Sect. 2. parag: 3. the term "legally" was struck out, and "under the laws thereof" inserted after the word "State" in compliance with the wish of some who thought the term legal equivocal, and favoring the idea that slavery was legal in a moral view.

Art. IV. Sect 3. "New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union: but no new State shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Cong^s."

M^r Gerry moved to insert after "or parts of States" the words "or a State and part of a State" which was disagreed to by a large majority; it appearing to be supposed that the case was comprehended in the words of the clause as reported by the Committee.

Art. IV. Sect. 4. After the word "Executive" were inserted the words "when the Legislature cannot be convened."

Art. V. "The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem necessary, or on the application of two thirds of the Legislatures of the several States shall propose amendments to this Constitution, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part thereof, when the same shall have been ratified by three fourths at least of the Legislatures of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress: Provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year 1808 shall in any manner affect the 1 & 4 clauses in the 9. Section of article 1."

M^r Sherman expressed his fears that three fourths of the States might be brought to do things fatal to particular States, as abolishing them altogether or depriving them of their equality in the Senate. He thought it reasonable that the proviso in favor of the States importing slaves should be extended so as to provide that no State should be affected in its internal police, or deprived of its equality in the Senate.

Col: Mason thought the plan of amending the Constitution exceptionable & dangerous. As the proposing of amendments is in both the modes to depend, in the first immediately, and in the second ultimately, on Congress, no amendments of the proper kind would ever be obtained by the people, if the Government should become oppressive, as he verily believed would be the case.

M^r Gov^r Morris & M^r Gerry moved to amend the article so as to require a Convention on application of 2/3 of the Sts.

M^r Madison did not see why Congress would not be as much bound to propose amendments applied for by two thirds of the States as to call a Convention on the like application. He saw no objection however against providing for a Convention for the purpose of amendments, except only that difficulties might arise as to the form, the quorum &c. which in constitutional regulations ought to be as much as possible avoided.

The motion of M^r Gov^r Morris & M^r Gerry was agreed to nem: con: (see the first part of the article as finally past).

M^r Sherman moved to strike out of art. V. after "legislatures" the words "of three fourths" and so after the word "Conventions" leaving future Conventions to act in this matter, like the present Conventions according to circumstances.

On this motion

N. H. div^d. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo–no.

M^r Gerry moved to strike out the words "or by Conventions in three fourths thereof." On this motion

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Sherman moved according to his idea above expressed to annex to the end of the article a further proviso "that no State shall without its consent be affected in its internal police, or deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate."

M^r Madison. Begin with these special provisos, and every State will insist on them, for their boundaries, exports &c.

On the motion of M^r Sherman

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Sherman then moved to strike out art. V altogether.

M^r Brearley 2^ded the motion, on which

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del div^d. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to annex a further proviso–"that no State, without its consent shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate."

This motion being dictated by the circulating murmurs of the small States was agreed to without debate, no one opposing it, or on the question, saying no.

Col: Mason expressing his discontent at the power given to Congress by a bare majority to pass navigation acts, which he said would not only enhance the freight, a consequence he did not so much regard–but would enable a few rich merchants in Philad^a N. York & Boston, to monopolize the Staples of the Southern States & reduce their value perhaps 50 Per C^t moved a further proviso that no law in the nature of a navigation act be passed before the year 1808, without the consent of 2/3 of each branch of the Legislature.

On this motion

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. abs^t. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

M^r Randolph animadverting on the indefinite and dangerous power given by the Constitution to Congress, expressing the pain he felt at differing from the body of the Convention, on the close of the great & awful subject of their labours, and anxiously wishing for some accommodating expedient which would relieve him from his embarrassments, made a motion importing "that amendments to the plan might be offered by the State Conventions, which should be submitted to and finally decided on by another general Convention." Should this proposition be disregarded, it would he said be impossible for him to put his name to the instrument. Whether he should oppose it afterwards he would not then decide but he would not deprive himself of the freedom to do so in his own State, if that course should be prescribed by his final judgment.

Col: Mason 2^ded & followed M^r Randolph in animadversions on the dangerous power and structure of the Government, concluding that it would end either in monarchy, or a tyrannical aristocracy; which, he was in doubt, but one or other, he was sure. This Constitution had been formed without the knowledge or idea of the people. A second Convention will know more of the sense of the people, and be able to provide a system more consonant to it. It was improper to say to the people, take this or nothing. As the Constitution now stands, he could neither give it his support or vote in Virginia; and he could not sign here what he could not support there. With the expedient of another Convention as proposed, he could sign.

M^r Pinkney. These declarations from members so respectable at the close of this important scene, give a peculiar solemnity to the present moment. He descanted on the consequences of calling forth the deliberations & amendments of the different States on the subject of Government at large. Nothing but confusion & contrariety could spring from the experiment. The States will never agree in their plans, and the Deputies to a second Convention coming together under the discordant impressions of their Constituents, will never agree. Conventions are serious things, and ought not to be repeated. He was not without objections as well as others to the plan. He objected to the contemptible weakness & dependence of the Executive. He objected to the power of a majority only of Cong^s over Commerce. But apprehending the danger of a general confusion, and an ultimate decision by the sword, he should give the plan his support.

M^r Gerry stated the objections which determined him to withhold his name from the Constitution. 1. the duration and re-eligibility of the Senate. 2. the power of the House of Representatives to conceal their journals. 3. the power of Congress over the places of election. 4. the unlimited power of Congress over their own compensation. 5. Massachusetts has not a due share of Representatives allotted to her. 6. 3/5 of the Blacks are to be represented as if they were freemen. 7. Under the power over commerce, monopolies may be established. 8. The vice president being made head of the Senate. He could however he said get over all these, if the rights of the Citizens were not rendered insecure 1. by the general power of the Legislature to make what laws they may please to call necessary and proper. 2. raise armies and money without limit. 3. to establish a tribunal without juries, which will be a Star-chamber as to Civil cases. Under such a view of the Constitution, the best that could be done he conceived was to provide for a second general Convention.

On the question on the proposition of M^r Randolph. All the States answered no.

On the question to agree to the Constitution as amended. All the States ay.

The Constitution was then ordered to be engrossed. and the House adjourned.

Monday Sep^r 17. 1787. In Convention

The engrossed Constitution being read.

Doc^r Franklin rose with a speech in his hand, which he had reduced to writing for his own conveniency, and which M^r Wilson read in the words following.

M^r President

I confess that there are several parts of this constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them: For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise. It is therefore that the older I grow, the more apt I am to doubt my own judgment, and to pay more respect to the judgment of others. Most men indeed as well as most sects in Religion think themselves in possession of all truth, and that wherever others differ from them it is so far error. Steele a Protestant in a Dedication tells the Pope, that the only difference between our Churches in their opinions of the certainty of their doctrines is, the Church of Rome is infallible and the Church of England is never in the wrong. But though many private persons think almost as highly of their own infallibility as of that of their sect, few express it so naturally as a certain french lady, who in a dispute with her sister, said "I don't know how it happens, Sister but I meet with nobody but myself, that is always in the right—Il n'y a que moi qui a toujours raison."

In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other. I doubt too whether any other Convention we can obtain may be able to make a better Constitution. For when you assemble a number of men to have the advantage of their joint wisdom, you inevitably assemble with those men, all their prejudices, their passions, their errors of opinion, their local interests, and their selfish views. From such an assembly can a perfect production be expected? It therefore astonishes me, Sir, to find this system approaching so near to perfection as it does; and I think it will astonish our enemies, who are waiting with confidence to hear that our councils are confounded like those of the Builders of Babel; and that our States are on the point of separation, only to meet hereafter for the purpose of cutting one another's throats. Thus I consent, Sir, to this Constitution because I expect no better, and because I am not sure, that it is not the best. The opinions I have had of its errors, I sacrifice to the public good. I have never whispered a syllable of them abroad. Within these walls they were born, and here they shall die. If every one of us in returning to our Constituents were to report the objections he has had to it, and endeavor to gain partizans in support of them, we might prevent its being generally received, and thereby lose all the salutary effects & great advantages resulting naturally in our favor among foreign nations as well as among ourselves, from our real or apparent unanimity. Much of the strength & efficiency of any Government in procuring and securing happiness to the people, depends, on opinion, on the general opinion of the goodness of the Government, as well as of the wisdom and integrity of its Governors. I hope therefore that for our own sakes as a part of the people, and for the sake of posterity, we shall act heartily and unanimously in recommending this Constitution (if approved by Congress & confirmed by the Conventions) wherever our influence may extend, and turn our future thoughts & endeavors to the means of having it well administered.

On the whole, Sir, I cannot help expressing a wish that every member of the Convention who may still have objections to it, would with me, on this occasion doubt a little of his own infallibility, and to make manifest our unanimity, put his name to this instrument.–He then moved that the Constitution be signed by the members and offered the following as a convenient form viz: "Done in Convention by the unanimous consent of the States present the 17^th of Sep^r &c.–In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names."

This ambiguous form had been drawn up by M^r G. M. in order to gain the dissenting members, and put into the hands of Doc^r Franklin that it might have the better chance of success.

M^r Gorham said if it was not too late he could wish, for the purpose of lessening objections to the Constitution, that the clause declaring "the number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every forty thousand" which had produced so much discussion, might be yet reconsidered, in order to strike out 40,000 & insert "thirty thousand." This would not he remarked establish that as an absolute rule, but only give Congress a greater latitude which could not be thought unreasonable.

M^r King & M^r Carrol seconded & supported the ideas of M^r Gorham.

When the President rose, for the purpose of putting the question, he said that although his situation had hitherto restrained him from offering his sentiments on questions depending in the House, and it might be thought, ought now to impose silence on him, yet he could not forbear expressing his wish that the alteration proposed might take place. It was much to be desired that the objections to the plan recommended might be made as few as possible. The smallness of the proportion of Representatives had been considered by many members of the Convention an insufficient security for the rights & interests of the people. He acknowledged that it had always appeared to himself among the exceptionable parts of the plan, and late as the present moment was for admitting amendments, he thought this of so much consequence that it would give much satisfaction to see it adopted. [102]