It seemed to be an objection to the provision with some, that according to the process established for chusing the Executive, there would be difficulty in effecting it at other than the fixed periods; with others, that the Legislature was restrained in the temporary appointment to "officers" of the U. S.: They wished it to be at liberty to appoint others than such.

On the Motion of M^r Randolph as amended, it passed in the affirmative.

N. H. divided. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gerry moved "that in the election of President by the House of Representatives, no State shall vote by less than three members, and where that number may not be allotted to a State, it shall be made up by its Senators; and a concurrence of a majority of all the States shall be necessary to make such choice." Without some such provision five individuals might possibly be competent to an election; these being a majority of two thirds of the existing number of States; and two thirds being a quorum for this business.

M^r Madison 2^ded the motion.

M^r Read observed that the States having but one member only in the House of Rep^s would be in danger of having no vote at all in the election: the sickness or absence either of the Representative or one of the Senators would have that effect.

M^r Madison replied that, if one member of the House of Representatives should be left capable of voting for the State, the states having one Representative only would still be subject to that danger. He thought it an evil that so small a number at any rate should be authorized to elect. Corruption would be greatly facilitated by it. The mode itself was liable to this further weighty objection that the representatives of a Minority of the people, might reverse the choice of a majority of the States and of the people. He wished some cure for this inconveniency might yet be provided.

M^r Gerry withdrew the first part of his motion; and on the, Question on the 2^d part viz: "and a concurrence of a majority of all the States shall be necessary to make such choice" to follow the words "a member or members from two thirds of the States"–It was agreed to nem: con:

The section 2. (see Sep^r 4) requiring that the President should be a natural-born Citizen &c., & have been resident for fourteen years, & be thirty five years of age, was agreed to nem: con:

Section 3 (see Sep^r 4). "The vice President shall be ex-officio President of the Senate"

M^r Gerry opposed this regulation. We might as well put the President himself at the head of the Legislature. The close intimacy that must subsist between the President & vice-president makes it absolutely improper. He was ag^st having any vice President.

M^r Gov^r Morris. The vice President then will be the first heir apparent that ever loved his father. If there should be no vice president, the President of the Senate would be temporary successor, which would amount to the same thing.

M^r Sherman saw no danger in the case. If the vice-President were not to be President of the Senate, he would be without employment, and some member by being made President must be deprived of his vote, unless when an equal division of votes might happen in the Senate, which would be but seldom.

M^r Randolph concurred in the opposition to the clause.

M^r Williamson, observed that such an officer as vice-President was not wanted. He was introduced only for the sake of a valuable mode of election which required two to be chosen at the same time.

Col: Mason, thought the office of vice-President an encroachment on the rights of the Senate; and that it mixed too much the Legislative & Executive, which as well as the Judiciary departments, ought to be kept as separate as possible. He took occasion to express his dislike of any reference whatever of the power to make appointments, to either branch of the Legislature. On the other hand he was averse to vest so dangerous a power in the President alone. As a method for avoiding both, he suggested that a privy Council of six members to the president should be established; to be chosen for six years by the Senate, two out of the Eastern two out of the middle, and two out of the Southern quarters of the Union, & to go out in rotation two every second year; the concurrence of the Senate to be required only in the appointment of Ambassadors, and in making treaties, which are more of a legislative nature. This would prevent the constant sitting of the Senate which he thought dangerous, as well as keep the departments separate & distinct. It would also save the expence of constant sessions of the Senate. He had he said always considered the Senate as too unwieldy & expensive for appointing officers, especially the smallest, such as tide waiters &c. He had not reduced his idea to writing, but it could be easily done if it should be found acceptable.

On the question shall the vice President be ex officio President of the Senate?

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. Mar. no. V^a ay. N. C. abs^t. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The other parts of the same Section (3) were then agreed to.

The Section 4.–to wit. "The President by & with the advice and consent of the Senate shall have power to make Treaties &c."

M^r Wilson moved to add after the word "Senate" the words, "and House of Representatives." As treaties he said are to have the operation of laws, they ought to have the sanction of laws also. The circumstance of secrecy in the business of treaties formed the only objection; but this he thought, so far as it was inconsistent with obtaining the Legislative sanction, was outweighed by the necessity of the latter.

M^r Sherman thought the only question that could be made was whether the power could be safely trusted to the Senate. He thought it could; and that the necessity of secrecy in the case of treaties forbade a reference of them to the whole Legislature.

M^r Fitzimmons 2^ded the motion of M^r Wilson, & on the question

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

The first sentence as to making treaties was then Agreed to; nem: con:

"He shall nominate &c. Appoint Ambassadors &c."

M^r Wilson objected to the mode of appointing, as blending a branch of the Legislature with the Executive. Good laws are of no effect without a good Executive; and there can be no good Executive without a responsible appointment of officers to execute. Responsibility is in a manner destroyed by such an agency of the Senate. He would prefer the council proposed by Col: Mason, provided its advice should not be made obligatory on the President.

M^r Pinkney was against joining the Senate in these appointments, except in the instances of Ambassadors who he thought ought not to be appointed by the President.

M^r Gov^r Morris said that as the President was to nominate, there would be responsibility, and as the Senate was to concur, there would be security. As Congress now make appointments there is no responsibility.

M^r Gerry. The idea of responsibility in the nomination to offices is Chimerical. The President cannot know all characters, and can therefore always plead ignorance.

M^r King. As the idea of a Council proposed by Col. Mason has been supported by M^r Wilson, he would remark that most of the inconveniences charged on the Senate are incident to a Council of Advice. He differed from those who thought the Senate would sit constantly. He did not suppose it was meant that all the minute officers were to be appointed by the Senate, or any other original source, but by the higher officers of the departments to which they belong. He was of opinion also that the people would be alarmed at an unnecessary creation of new Corps which must increase the expence as well as influence of the Government.

On the question on these words in the clause viz–"He shall nominate & by & with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint ambassadors, and other public ministers (and consuls) Judges of the Supreme Court". Agreed to nem: con: the insertion of "and consuls" having first taken place.

On the question on the following words "And all other officers of U.S."

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

On motion of M^r Spaight–"that the President shall have power to fill up all vacancies that may happen during the recess of the Senate by granting Commissions which shall expire at the end of the next Session of the Senate." It was agreed to nem: con:

Section 4. "The President by and with the advice and consent of the Senate shall have power to make Treaties,—But no treaty shall be made without the consent of two thirds of the members present"–this last clause being before the House.

M^r Wilson thought it objectionable to require the concurrence of 2/3 which puts it into the power of a minority to controul the will of a majority.

M^r King concurred in the objection; remarking that as the Executive was here joined in the business, there was a check which did not exist in Congress where the concurrence of 2/3 was required.

M^r Madison moved to insert after the word "treaty" the words "except treaties of peace" allowing these to be made with less difficulty than other treaties–It was agreed to nem: con:

M^r Madison then moved to authorize a concurrence of two thirds of the Senate to make treaties of peace, without the concurrence of the President.–The President he said would necessarily derive so much power and importance from a state of war that he might be tempted if authorized, to impede a treaty of peace. M^r Butler 2^ded the motion.

M^r Gorham thought the precaution unnecessary as the means of carrying on the war would not be in the hands of the President, but of the Legislature.

M^r Gov^r Morris thought the power of the President in this case harmless; and that no peace ought to be made without the concurrence of the President, who was the general Guardian of the National interests.

M^r Butler was strenuous for the motion, as a necessary security against ambitious & corrupt Presidents. He mentioned the late perfidious policy of the Statholder in Holland; and the artifices of the Duke of Marlbro' to prolong the war of which he had the management.

M^r Gerry was of opinion that in treaties of peace a greater rather than less proportion of votes was necessary, than in other treaties. In Treaties of peace the dearest interests will be at stake, as the fisheries, territory &c. In treaties of peace also there is more danger to the extremities of the Continent of being sacrificed, than on any other occasions.

M^r Williamson thought that Treaties of peace should be guarded at least by requiring the same concurrence as in other Treaties.

On the motion of M^r Madison & M^r Butler

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On the part of the clause concerning treaties amended by the exception as to Treaties of peace,

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

"and may require the opinion in writing of the principal officer in each of the Executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices," being before the House

Col: Mason [60] said that in rejecting a Council to the President we were about to try an experiment on which the most despotic Government had never ventured. The Grand Signor himself had his Divan. He moved to postpone the consideration of the clause in order to take up the following.

"That it be an instruction to the Committee of the States to prepare a clause or clauses for establishing an Executive Council, as a Council of State for the President of the U. States, to consist of six members, two of which from the Eastern, two from the middle, and two from the Southern States, with a Rotation and duration of office similar to those of the Senate; such Council to be appointed by the Legislature or by the Senate."

Doctor Franklin 2^ded the motion. We seemed he said too much to fear cabals in appointments by a number, and to have too much confidence in those of single persons. Experience shewed that caprice, the intrigues of favorites & mistresses, were nevertheless the means most prevalent in monarchies. Among instances of abuse in such modes of appointment, he mentioned the many bad Governors appointed in G. B. for the Colonies. He thought a Council would not only be a check on a bad President but be a relief to a good one.

M^r Gov^r Morris. The question of a Council was considered in the Committee, where it was judged that the Presid^t by persuading his Council to concur in his wrong measures, would acquire their protection for them.

M^r Wilson approved of a Council in preference to making the Senate a party to appointm^ts.

M^r Dickinson was for a Council. It w^d be a singular thing if the measures of the Executive were not to undergo some previous discussion before the President.

M^r Madison was in favor of the instruction to the Committee proposed by Col: Mason.

The motion of M^r Mason was negatived. May^d ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.–N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. V^a no. N. C. no.

On the question, "authorizing the President to call for the opinions of the Heads of Departments, in writing": it passed in the affirmative N. H. only being no. [61]

The clause was then unanimously agreed to—

M^r Williamson & M^r Spaight moved "that no Treaty of peace affecting Territorial rights sh^d be made without the concurrence of two thirds of the members of the Senate present."

M^r King. It will be necessary to look out for securities for some other rights, if this principle be established; he moved to extend the motion–"to all present rights of the U. States."

Adjourned.

Saturday September 8^th In Convention

The last Report of the Committee of Eleven (see Sep^r 4) was resumed.

M^r King moved to strike out the "exception of Treaties of peace" from the general clause requiring two thirds of the Senate for making Treaties.

M^r Wilson wished the requisition of two thirds to be struck out altogether. If the majority cannot be trusted, it was a proof, as observed by M^r Ghorum, that we were not fit for one Society.

A reconsideration of the whole clause was agreed to.

M^r Gov^r Morris was ag^st striking out the "exception of Treaties of peace." If two thirds of the Senate should be required for peace, the Legislature will be unwilling to make war for that reason, on account of the Fisheries or the Mississippi, the two great objects of the Union. Besides, if a majority of the Senate be for peace, and are not allowed to make it, they will be apt to effect their purpose in the more disagreeable mode, of negativing the supplies for the war.

M^r Williamson remarked that Treaties are to be made in the branch of the Gov^t where there may be a majority of the States without a majority of the people. Eight men may be a majority of a quorum, & should not have the power to decide the conditions of peace. There would be no danger, that the exposed States, as S. Carolina or Georgia, would urge an improper war for the Western Territory.

M^r Wilson. If two thirds are necessary to make peace, the minority may perpetuate war, against the sense of the majority.

M^r Gerry enlarged on the danger of putting the essential rights of the Union in the hands of so small a number as a majority of the Senate, representing perhaps, not one fifth of the people. The Senate will be corrupted by foreign influence.

M^r Sherman was ag^st leaving the rights established by the Treaty of peace, to the Senate, & moved to annex a proviso that no such rights sh^d be ceded without the sanction of the Legislature.

M^r Gov^r Morris seconded the ideas of M^r Sherman.

M^r Madison observed that it had been too easy in the present Congress, to make Treaties altho' nine States were required for the purpose.

On the question for striking "except Treaties of peace"

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Wilson & M^r Dayton move to strike out the clause requiring two thirds of the Senate for making Treaties; on which,

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t div^d. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Rutlidge & M^r Gerry moved that "no Treaty be made without the consent of 2/3 of all the members of the Senate"–according to the example in the present Cong^s.

M^r Ghorum. There is a difference in the case, as the President's consent will also be necessary in the new Gov^t.

On the question

N. H. no. Mass. no. (M^r Gerry ay.) C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Sherman mov^d that no Treaty be made without a Majority of the whole number of the Senate. M^r Gerry seconded him.

M^r Williamson. This will be less security than 2/3 as now required.

M^r Sherman. It will be less embarrassing.

On the question, it passed in the negative.

N. H. no. Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison moved that a Quorum of the Senate consist of 2/3 of all the members.

M^r Gov^r Morris–This will put it in the power of one man to break up a Quorum.

M^r Madison. This may happen to any Quorum.

On the Question it passed in the negative.

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Williamson & M^r Gerry mov^d "that no Treaty sh^d be made with^t previous notice to the members, & a reasonable time for their attending."

On the Question

All the States no; except N. C. S. C. & Geo. ay.

On a question on clause of the Report of the Com^e of Eleven relating to Treaties by 2/3 of the Senate.

All the States were ay.–except P^a N. J. & Geo. no.

M^r Gerry mov^d that "no officer be app^d but to offices created by the Constitution or by law."–This was rejected as unnecessary by six no's & five ays:

The Ayes. Mass. C^t N. J. N. C. Geo.–Noes. N. H. P^a Del. M^d V^a S. C.

The clause referring to the Senate, the trial of impeachments ag^st the President, for Treason & bribery, was taken up.

Col. Mason. Why is the provision restrained to Treason & bribery only? Treason as defined in the Constitution will not reach many great and dangerous offences. Hastings is not guilty of Treason. Attempts to subvert the Constitution may not be Treason as above defined. As bills of attainder which have saved the British Constitution are forbidden, it is the more necessary to extend the power of impeachments. He mov^d to add, after "bribery" "or maladministration." M^r Gerry seconded him.

M^r Madison. so vague a term will be equivalent to a tenure during pleasure of the Senate.

M^r Gov^r Morris, it will not be put in force & can do no harm. An election of every four years will prevent maladministration.

Col. Mason withdrew "maladministration" & substitutes "other high crimes & misdemesnors ag^st the State."

On the question thus altered

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. [62] Geo. ay.

M^r Madison objected to a trial of the President by the Senate, especially as he was to be impeached by the other branch of the Legislature, and for any act which might be called a misdemesnor. The President under these circumstances was made improperly dependent. He would prefer the Supreme Court for the trial of impeachments, or rather a tribunal of which that should form a part.

M^r Gov^r Morris thought no other tribunal than the Senate could be trusted. The supreme Court were too few in number and might be warped or corrupted. He was ag^st a dependence of the Executive on the Legislature, considering the Legislative tyranny the great danger to be apprehended; but there could be no danger that the Senate would say untruly on their oaths that the President was guilty of crimes or facts, especially as in four years he can be turned out.

M^r Pinkney disapproved of making the Senate the Court of impeachments, as rendering the President too dependent on the Legislature. If he opposes a favorite law, the two Houses will combine ag^st him, and under the influence of heat and faction throw him out of office.

M^r Williamson thought there was more danger of too much lenity than of too much rigour towards the President, considering the number of cases in which the Senate was associated with the President.

M^r Sherman regarded the Supreme Court as improper to try the President, because the Judges would be appointed by him.

On motion of M^r Madison to strike out the words–"by the Senate" after the word "conviction"

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

In the amendment of Col: Mason just agreed to, the word "State" after the words "misdemeanors against," was struck out, and the words "United States," inserted unanimously, in order to remove ambiguity.

On the question to agree to clause as amended,

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Cont. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On motion "The vice-President and other Civil officers of the U. S. shall be removed from office on impeachment and conviction as aforesaid" was added to the clause on the subject of impeachments.

The clause of the report made on the 5^th Sep^r & postponed was taken up to wit–"All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; and shall be subject to alterations and amendments by the Senate. No money shall be drawn from the Treasury but in consequence of appropriations made by law."

It was moved to strike out the words "and shall be subject to alterations and amendments by the Senate" and insert the words used in the Constitution of Massachusetts on the same subject–"but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as in other bills" which was agreed too nem: con:

On the question On the first part of the clause–"All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives" [63]

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to add to clause (3) of the report made on Sep^r 4. the words "and every member shall be on oath" which being agreed to, and a question taken on the clause so amended viz–"The Senate of the U. S. shall have power to try all impeachments; but no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the members present; and every member shall be on oath"

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del.–ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gerry repeated his motion above made on this day, in the form following: "The Legislature shall have the sole right of establishing offices not heretofore provided for" which was again negatived: Mas. Con^t & Geo. only being ay.

M^r M^cHenry observed that the President had not yet been any where authorized to convene the Senate, and moved to amend Art X. sect. 2. by striking out the words "he may convene them (the Legislature) on extraordinary occasions," & insert, "He may convene both or either of the Houses on extraordinary occasions." This he added would also provide for the case of the Senate being in Session, at the time of convening the Legislature.

M^r Wilson said he should vote ag^st the motion, because it implied that the senate might be in Session, when the Legislature was not, which he thought improper.

On the question

N. H. ay. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

A Committee was then appointed by Ballot to revise the stile of and arrange the articles which had been agreed to by the House. The committee consisted of M^r Johnson, M^r Hamilton, M^r Gov^r Morris, M^r Madison and M^r King.

M^r Williamson moved that, previous to this work of the Committee the clause relating to the number of the House of Representatives sh^d be reconsidered for the purpose of increasing the number.

M^r Madison 2^ded the Motion.

M^r Sherman opposed it he thought the provision on that subject amply sufficient.

Col: Hamilton expressed himself with great earnestness and anxiety in favor of the motion. He avowed himself a friend to a vigorous Government, but would declare at the same time, that he held it essential that the popular branch of it should be on a broad foundation. He was Seriously of opinion that the House of Representatives was on so narrow a scale as to be really dangerous, and to warrant a jealousy in the people for their liberties. He remarked that the connection between the President & Senate would tend to perpetuate him, by corrupt influence. It was the more necessary on this account that a numerous representation in the other branch of the Legislature should be established.

On the motion of M^r Williamson to reconsider, it was negatived [64]

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

Adj^d.

Monday Sep^r 10. 1787 In Convention [65]

M^r Gerry moved to reconsider Art XIX. viz. "On the application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the States in the Union, for an amendment of this Constitution, the Legislature of the U. S. shall call a Convention for that purpose," (see Aug 6).

This constitution he said is to be paramount to the State Constitutions. It follows hence, from this article that two thirds of the States may obtain a Convention, a majority of which can bind the Union to innovations that may subvert the State Constitutions altogether. He asked whether this was a situation proper to be run into.

M^r Hamilton 2^ded the motion, but he said with a different view from M^r Gerry. He did not object to the consequences stated by M^r Gerry. There was no greater evil in subjecting the people of the U.S. to the major voice than the people of a particular State. It had been wished by many and was much to have been desired that an easier mode of introducing amendments had been provided by the articles of the Confederation. It was equally desirable now that an easy mode should be established for supplying defects which will probably appear in the new System. The mode proposed was not adequate. The State Legislatures will not apply for alterations but with a view to increase their own powers. The National Legislature will be the first to perceive and will be most sensible to the necessity of amendments, and ought also to be empowered, whenever two thirds of each branch should concur to call a Convention. There could be no danger in giving this power, as the people would finally decide in the case.

M^r Madison remarked on the vagueness of the terms, "call a Convention for the purpose," as sufficient reason for reconsidering the article. How was a Convention to be formed? by what rule decide? what the force of its acts?

On the motion of M^r Gerry to reconsider

N. H. div^d. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Sherman moved to add to the article "or the Legislature may propose amendments to the several States for their approbation, but no amendments shall be binding until consented to by the several States."

M^r Gerry 2^ded the motion.

M^r Wilson moved to insert, "two thirds of" before the words "several States"–on which amendment to the motion of M^r Sherman

N. H. ay. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Wilson then moved to insert "three fourths of" before "the several Sts." which was agreed to nem: con:

M^r Madison moved to postpone the consideration of the amended proposition in order to take up the following,

"The Legislature of the U. S. whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem necessary, or on the application of two thirds of the Legislatures of the several States, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part thereof, when the same shall have been ratified by three fourths at least of the Legislatures of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Legislature of the U.S:"

M^r Hamilton 2^ded the motion.

M^r Rutlidge said he never could agree to give a power by which the articles relating to slaves might be altered by the States not interested in that property and prejudiced against it. In order to obviate this objection, these words were added to the proposition: [66] "provided that no amendments which may be made prior to the year 1808 shall in any manner affect the 4 & 5 sections of the VII article."–The postponement being agreed to,

On the question on the proposition of M^r Madison & M^r Hamilton as amended

N. H. div^d. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gerry moved to reconsider Art: XXI and XXII. from the latter of which "for the approbation of Cong^s" had been struck out. He objected to proceeding to change the Government without the approbation of Congress, as being improper and giving just umbrage to that body: He repeated his objections also to an annulment of the confederation with so little scruple or formality.

M^r Hamilton concurred with M^r Gerry as to the indecorum of not requiring the approbation of Congress. He considered this as a necessary ingredient in the transaction. He thought it wrong also to allow nine States as provided by Art XXI. to institute a new Government on the ruins of the existing one. He w^d propose as a better modification of the two articles (XXI & XXII) that the plan should be sent to Congress in order that the same if approved by them, may be communicated to the State Legislatures, to the end that they may refer it to State conventions; each Legislature declaring that if the Convention of the State should think the plan ought to take effect among nine ratifying States, the same sh^d take effect accordingly.

M^r Gorham. Some States will say that nine States shall be sufficient to establish the plan, others will require unanimity for the purpose. And the different and conditional ratifications will defeat the plan altogether.

M^r Hamilton. No Convention convinced of the necessity of the plan will refuse to give it effect on the adoption by nine States. He thought this mode less exceptionable than the one proposed in the article, while it would attain the same end.

M^r Fitzimmons remarked that the words "for their approbation" had been struck out in order to save Congress from the necessity of an Act inconsistent with the Articles of Confederation under which they held their authority.

M^r Randolph declared, if no change should be made in this part of the plan, he should be obliged to dissent from the whole of it. He had from the beginning he said been convinced that radical changes in the system of the Union were necessary. Under this conviction he had brought forward a set of republican propositions as the basis and outline of a reform. These Republican propositions had however, much to his regret, been widely, and, in his opinion, irreconcileably departed from. In this state of things it was his idea and he accordingly meant to propose, that the State Conventions sh^d be at liberty to offer amendments to the plan; and that these should be submitted to a second General Convention, with full power to settle the Constitution finally. He did not expect to succeed in this proposition, but the discharge of his duty in making the attempt, would give quiet to his own mind.

M^r Wilson was against a reconsideration for any of the purposes which had been mentioned.

M^r King thought it would be more respectful to Congress to submit the plan generally to them; than in such a form as expressly and necessarily to require their approbation or disapprobation. The assent of nine States he considered as sufficient; and that it was more proper to make this a part of the Constitution itself, than to provide for it by a supplemental or distinct recommendation.

M^r Gerry urged the indecency and pernicious tendency of dissolving in so slight a manner, the solemn obligations of the articles of confederation. If nine out of thirteen can dissolve the compact. Six out of nine will be just as able to dissolve the new one hereafter.

M^r Sherman was in favor of M^r King's idea of submitting the plan generally to Congress. He thought nine States ought to be made sufficient: but that it would be best to make it a separate act and in some such form as that intimated by Col: Hamilton, than to make it a particular article of the Constitution.

On the question for reconsidering the two articles, XXI & XXII—

N. H. div^d. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

M^r Hamilton then moved to postpone art XXI in order to take up the following, containing the ideas he had above expressed, viz

Resolved that the foregoing plan of a Constitution be transmitted to the U. S. in Congress assembled, in order that if the same shall be agreed to by them, it may be communicated to the Legislatures of the several States, to the end that they may provide for its final ratification by referring the same to the Consideration of a Convention of Deputies in each State to be chosen by the people thereof, and that it be recommended to the said Legislatures in their respective acts for organizing such convention to declare, that if the said Convention shall approve of the said Constitution, such approbation shall be binding and conclusive upon the State, and further that if the said Convention should be of opinion that the same upon the assent of any nine States thereto, ought to take effect between the States so assenting, such opinion shall thereupon be also binding upon such a State, and the said Constitution shall take effect between the States assenting thereto.

M^r Gerry 2^ded the motion.

M^r Wilson. This motion being seconded, it is necessary now to speak freely. He expressed in strong terms his disapprobation of the expedient proposed, particularly the suspending the plan of the Convention on the approbation of Congress. He declared it to be worse than folly to rely on the concurrence of the Rhode Island members of Cong^s in the plan. Maryland has voted on this floor; for requiring the unanimous assent of the 13 States to the proposed change in the federal System. N. York has not been represented for a long time past in the Convention. Many individual deputies from other States have spoken much against the plan. Under these circumstances can it be safe to make the assent of Congress necessary. After spending four or five months in the laborious & arduous task of forming a Government for our Country, we are ourselves at the close throwing insuperable obstacles in the way of its success.

M^r Clymer thought that the mode proposed by M^r Hamilton would fetter & embarrass Cong^s as much as the original one, since it equally involved a breach of the articles of Confederation.

M^r King concurred with M^r Clymer. If Congress can accede to one mode, they can to the other. If the approbation of Congress be made necessary, and they should not approve, the State Legislatures will not propose the plan to Conventions; or if the States themselves are to provide that nine States shall suffice to establish the System, that provision will be omitted, every thing will go into confusion, and all our labor be lost.

M^r Rutlidge viewed the matter in the same light with M^r King.

On the question to postpone in order to take up Col: Hamilton's motion

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

A Question being then taken on the article XXI. It was agreed to unanimously.

Col: Hamilton withdrew the remainder of the motion to postpone art. XXII, observing that his purpose was defeated by the vote just given.

M^r Williamson & M^r Gerry moved to re-instate the words "for the approbation of Congress" in Art: XXII. which was disagreed to nem: con:

M^r Randolph took this opportunity to state his objections to the System. They turned on the Senate's being made the Court of Impeachment for trying the Executive–on the necessity of 3/4 instead of 2/3 of each house to overrule the negative of the President–on the smallness of the number of the Representative branch,–on the want of limitation to a standing army–on the general clause concerning necessary and proper laws–on the want of some particular restraint on navigation acts–on the power to lay duties on exports–on the authority of the General Legislature to interpose on the application of the Executives of the States–on the want of a more definite boundary between the General & State Legislatures–and between the General and State Judiciaries–on the unqualified power of the President to pardon treasons–on the want of some limit to the power of the Legislature in regulating their own compensations. With these difficulties in his mind, what course he asked was he to pursue? Was he to promote the establishment of a plan which he verily believed would end in Tyranny? He was unwilling he said to impede the wishes and Judgment of the Convention, but he must keep himself free, in case he should be honored with a seat in the Convention of his State, to act according to the dictates of his judgment. The only mode in which his embarrassments could be removed, was that of submitting the plan to Cong^s to go from them to the State Legislatures, and from these to State Conventions having power to adopt reject or amend; the process to close with another General Convention with full power to adopt or reject the alterations proposed by the State Conventions, and to establish finally the Government. He accordingly proposed a Resolution to this effect.

Doc^r Franklin 2^ded the motion.

Col: Mason urged & obtained that the motion should lie on the table for a day or two to see what steps might be taken with regard to the parts of the system objected to by M^r Randolph.

M^r Pinkney moved "that it be an instruction to the Committee for revising the stile and arrangement of the articles agreed on, to prepare an address to the people, to accompany the present Constitution, and to be laid with the same before the U. States in Congress."

[67]The motion itself was referred to the Committee nem: con:

[67]M^r Randolph moved to refer to the Committee also a motion relating to pardons in cases of Treason–which was agreed to nem: con: