This report was advocated by Messrs. Harper, W. Smith, Swanwick, Havens, Heath, Thatcher, Varnum, and Rutherford. They stated that the husband of the petitioner, John de Neufville, was an eminent merchant at Amsterdam; that he was an influential character there, and, at an early period of our Revolutionary war, entered with great zeal into the interests of America; that, meeting with Mr. William Lee, the Commissioner of the United States, he endeavored to bring about a treaty between the United Netherlands and the United States, which being discovered by the British, that Court used its influence with the Government of that country to harass and drive him out of the country; that during his residence at Amsterdam, his house was a constant asylum for American citizens; that he had made large advances in money for the service of the United States, which obliged him to extend his credit beyond what was warranted by the regular course of trade, and a failure in the payment of which (owing to the embarrassed circumstances of the United States at that time) had greatly injured him, and left him to the mercy of his creditors. The consequence was, he was reduced from affluence to poverty at an advanced period of life. Some years ago he arrived at Boston with his wife and two children, where he subsisted in a very humble manner upon the bounty of his friends in Holland; those friends having, by the reverses occasioned by the Revolution, been much injured in their property, could afford him but a scanty pittance; but Mr. de Neufville being dead, the petitioner was deprived of this assistance; and, to add to her repeated misfortunes, the son of her late husband, from their multiplied sufferings, had been deprived of his reason. Under this pressure of grievances, the petitioner was come from Boston to lay her case before Congress, and pray relief. This peculiarly distressing case was supported with great zeal and feeling by its advocates, particularly by Mr. Harper.

The claim was opposed by Messrs. Coit, Swift, and Nicholas. An application, it seems, was made by Mr. de Neufville, during his life-time, for redress; upon which the then Secretary of State (Mr. Jefferson) reported. This report, after stating all the facts upon which the claim was founded, gave it as his opinion, that the petitioner had no real claim on the United States. This report, it seems, had never been acted upon. The reading of it, as well as of all the documents relative to this claim, was called for, and they were accordingly read. The opposers of this claim acknowledged the distressed situation of the petitioner, but denied the justice of her claim upon the United States; the treaty which Mr. de Neufville proposed to enter into with Mr. Lee, they supposed, was a treaty which he believed would prove beneficial to his country, and not to the United States: that there were many claims in our own country from persons who had been injured by the war, the justice of which was less equivocal, and the distress at least equal. Mr. Nicholas said, a few days ago only, a poor man, whose health had been so much impaired in the war, that he was unable to earn his living, had applied to him to bring his case before Congress, yet, as the pension law affords no relief to any person, except he had been wounded, he was obliged to inform him that he could do nothing for him. There were multitudes of such instances, equally distressing with the present, to which no relief could be afforded.

Mr. Thatcher moved to have the three thousand dollars struck out, and five inserted. This was negatived—45 to 37; but the resolution was agreed to as reported—yeas 63, nays 25.

Thursday, February 16.

John C. Symmes.

Mr. Gallatin said, a report had been made upon the contract between John C. Symmes and his associates, and the United States, which it was of importance to pass into a law this session, as the object was four hundred thousand acres of land, which was worth about eight hundred thousand dollars.

The House accordingly resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the subject, when the report, which was very long, having been read, the committee agreed to the resolution reported, which was in the following words:

Friday, February 17.

Increase of Duties.

BROWN SUGAR.

Mr. W. Smith said, the proposed increase, it was calculated, would raise 110,000 dollars, and as the article was not liable to be smuggled, nor its consumption to be decreased, it would be a certain, and he thought, an eligible tax.

Mr. Holland had no doubt but this tax would augment the revenue; but he knew also that it would fall more upon the poor than upon the rich, and he thought they ought not to add to their burdens. He thought there were other articles which would bear some addition, but either brown sugar or salt would be much felt. If they studied that which would be burdensome, here they might fix, but he hoped this was not the principle. By advancing an article so universally used, a rise of labor (already too high) must naturally follow.

Mr. Kitchell believed the rich and opulent would bear their portion of this tax as well as the poor, as it would fall upon fine sugar as well as upon brown. It would therefore be paid in proportion to the sugar used, and would fall as equally as any other tax which could be laid.

In this instance, Mr. K. said, gentlemen seemed apprehensive of the poor bearing too great a part of the burden; but, if the direct tax on land were to take place, would it not, he asked, fall much heavier upon the poor than a tax on sugar? He believed it would; since the poor who held lands would be called upon to pay their portion of it, whilst the rich who held no lands, would escape it. He, therefore, thought this a far preferable tax.

Mr. Dearborn said, if further revenue was necessary, he could not conceive any article which would bear an advance of duty better than the one proposed. The present duty, he said, was one and a half cent a pound, and could it be supposed that to lay an additional half cent upon it, could make much difference to the consumer, or that it would ever be felt, or that, at the end of a year, it would be discovered whether one and a half or two cents duty had been paid upon a pound of sugar? He should have no objection, instead of half a cent, to lay an additional cent upon this article. In various parts of the country, brown sugar was retailed at from 12 to 20 cents a pound, the price being much increased from the present distressed situation of the West Indies. But they would find sugar of the same quality selling in one place for 12, in another for 14 or 16 cents; therefore, whether the duty was one or two cents, he did not think it would be felt by any body. It was true, that it was an article used by the middling and lower classes of the people; but the tax falling upon fine as well as brown sugar, all parts of the community would bear an equal share in the burden.

Mr. Williams moved to strike out the half cent, and insert a cent. It appeared to him that such an advance could not materially affect the consumer. The people, it was true, might use less; but, if they did so, as it was an article of luxury, every pound of sugar less which was consumed, would be of benefit to the country, by keeping the money which it cost in a foreign market at home. But he did not believe that this would be the case; or that the proposed additional duty would increase the price of labor, as had been suggested. He believed the price of labor would be regulated by the price which the farmer was enabled to get for his produce. Whatever the farmer could afford to give his laborer (especially in this country where agriculture is the true interest) would fix the price of all other labor.

Mr. Holland said, perhaps the constituents of the gentleman last up might manufacture their own sugar, and therefore would not be affected by this tax; but the greater part of his constituents were obliged to use and purchase their sugar; and if it were a luxury, it was one he did not wish to deprive them of, but that they might have it upon the same terms as usual. He looked upon it as a necessary of life, already at too high a price, and he should, therefore, oppose any advance of duty upon it.

Mr. Gallatin said, he and his constituents were in the same situation with the gentleman from New York (Mr. Williams) and his constituents. They manufactured almost the whole of their own sugar; very little imported sugar was used; indeed, they sometimes exported sugar; but though this reason seemed to act pretty powerfully upon the gentleman from New York, it would not have the same effect upon him. Whenever a measure operated partially upon other parts of the Union, though it might operate in favor of his constituents, he should feel himself in duty bound to oppose it. On the ground of their being Representatives of the whole Union, as well as on the ground of policy, he did not believe it was right to endeavor to throw a burden upon one part of the Union, because the part in which they were most particularly interested, would escape it. He hoped the amendment would be rejected, and after the sense of the committee should have been taken upon it, he also would move an amendment. At present, brown sugar paid one and a half cent a pound duty, and molasses three cents per gallon. He should, therefore, move to have an additional cent laid upon molasses, in order that the two articles might be increased in the same proportion. He was against any increase at present; but if the duty on one article was increased, the other ought also to be increased.

Mr. Williams observed, that he had said the people in the part of the country from whence he came, made their own sugar during the war; if they were to make it now, it would cost them more than double the price at which they might purchase it. He said, when the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Gallatin) found the land tax was not likely to pass, he wished to defeat every proposition for an indirect tax. He had attempted, therefore, to defeat an additional tax on sugar, by proposing to add molasses to the resolution. He did not think this fair; he wished every proposition to stand upon its own ground. A few days ago that gentleman had insisted upon the necessity of laying a direct tax; but now he came forward, and said no additional revenue was wanting. He wished not to have a compulsory tax, but a tax which persons might pay or not. If they did not like to pay the tax on sugar, they might do without it.

Mr. Cooper said he was against any additional duty on salt or sugar, though he and his constituents (as well as his colleague and his constituents) should bear no part of the burden, as they made not only sufficient for themselves, but for sale. Indeed, he said, a duty on salt exported out of the United States, would produce revenue, as a considerable quantity was sent into Upper Canada.

Mr. Williams denied that his constituents made any salt; they had no salt but what paid duty; nor did his constituents make one-fourth of the sugar they used; nor did he believe his colleague's (Mr. Cooper's) constituents made one-half of the sugar they used, as he well knew that a large quantity of sugar was sent to that district by way of Albany.

Mr. Read hoped the amendment would obtain. Although such persons as lived at a distance from market manufactured their own sugar, and consequently would be excused from this duty, yet they labored under many disadvantages in other respects, on account of their remoteness from market, and therefore he had no objection to their being excused from the operation of this tax. He did not believe this tax on sugar would fall upon poor persons. Farmers, indeed, used a little brown sugar, but they would rather pay a little more for this article than have their land taxed.

Mr. Claiborne was against the amendment. If an additional duty of one cent was laid upon brown sugar, the different dealers would make it three or four, so that it would be materially felt.

Mr. Gallatin then moved to amend the resolution, by adding an additional cent per gallon upon molasses. At present the duty on brown sugar was one and a half cent per pound, and on molasses three cents per gallon. The advance of 33 per cent. on the present duty would be the same that had been agreed to be laid upon sugar.

Mr. Swanwick seconded the motion. The only way in which the tax on brown sugar could be secured was by advancing the duty on molasses in the same proportion, otherwise molasses would be used in the place of sugar, and the duty would be evaded. But he would have gentlemen consider in what situation they placed the revenue in respect to drawbacks. The person who paid the duty was probably not the same who drew the drawback on exportation; the United States run the risk, therefore, of paying the drawback, without receiving the duty. Though he thought the tax on sugar highly objectionable, yet if it were adopted, he thought it right that it should be accompanied by a proportionate tax on molasses as a security to the duty being paid. One cent a pound on sugar, it was said, was a trifle; but it was well known that the price of that article was at present very exorbitant, from the disorders which had taken place in the West Indies.

Mr. Nickolas hoped the amendment would be agreed to. His principal objection to a tax on sugar was, because, having been successful in making one addition, it would be an argument for making future ones, but if molasses was added to it, the tax would then fall more equally on the poor of different parts of the Union, and be a means of keeping down the tax.

Mr. Buck said, if he thought the advocates of this amendment would vote for the resolution when amended, he might be induced to vote for it; but he believed they did not mean to do so. If an increase of the duty on brown sugar would fall upon the poorer class of the people, an additional duty on molasses would fall much heavier upon them. But he thought gentlemen were mistaken with respect to the operation of the tax on brown sugar; in the country it would not fall upon the poor, though in the cities it might do so; though in increasing the duty on brown sugar, that on fine was also increased. In the country it was the rich who used brown sugar; they had not got to that pitch of refinement which called for the use of fine sugar; they used brown sugar, and the poor used none; they sweetened with molasses. Notwithstanding this, if he thought gentlemen meant to vote for the resolution when amended, he would not object to the addition on molasses, as he did not think so small an advance would be materially felt.

Mr. Rutherford hoped they should not agree to lay an additional duty on either of these necessaries of life. He hoped there was sufficient good sense in the House to oppose such a measure. They were used by all classes, from the infant to the stoutest man; particularly by many poor, infirm, aged persons, who looked upon them as nutritious and balmy nourishments. He hoped, therefore, they would not increase the price of those articles; for, if an additional cent was added, the dealers would add two, three, or four cents, which would be more than the poor could afford to pay for them.

Mr. Christie believed the gentleman from Pennsylvania meant, by the introduction of this amendment, to defeat the tax on sugar altogether; he should, therefore, vote against this amendment; but if the additional tax on sugar should be carried, and the additional tax on molasses should be introduced alone, he would vote for it, but he would not vote for them together. He did not think the tax on sugar would fall upon the poor, particularly as fine sugar would be taxed equally with the brown. He thought it was a fair object of taxation. He believed they should want revenue, and he did not know an article from which it could be better raised.

Mr. Findlay was at a loss to know how a tax on molasses would operate; but his doubts had been removed by the gentleman from Vermont, (Mr. Buck,) who had informed them it was used by the poor in place of brown sugar. In many parts of Pennsylvania molasses was scarcely known, and brown sugar was generally used by the poor; if, therefore, the same class of persons in one part of the country used molasses for the same purpose for which brown sugar was used in other parts, it was only reasonable that both should be taxed in the same proportion.

His colleague (Mr. Gallatin) had mentioned that his constituents would not pay any of this tax, as they made their own sugar. It was so with a part of his constituents, but not with the whole. As it would be unjust to pass one tax without the other, he should be in favor of the amendment.

Mr. Gallatin said, it had been charged against him, that he had introduced his amendment with a view to defeat the tax on sugar. He had already said that he did not wish for any indirect tax during the present session; but, at the same time, he considered it his duty, if a majority should choose to pass the resolution, to make it as good as possible before he voted against it, for this purpose he had introduced his amendment. Whenever the duty on sugar was increased, that on molasses should also be increased. With respect to what had been said about the duty on brown sugar not falling upon the poor, it was contradicted by the quantity every year imported into the United States. When they knew that this amounted to twenty-two millions of pounds weight, they must conclude that it was used by the poor as well as the rich; for though the Eastern States used a great deal of molasses, it was not the case in the Middle, Southern, and Western States; all classes of citizens in those States used sugar. The voting for the amendment now was the same as voting for it in any other shape. It was doing now what would be done hereafter, if now omitted. There was nothing informal in it. He saw no reason which could be urged for one taking place, which would not equally hold with respect to the other.

Mr. Swanwick thought that those gentlemen who separated the articles of sugar and molasses, would wish to defeat the object; thus it was with the gentleman last up. This was introduced with a view of securing the collection. Mr. S. said he had before stated the injury the United States might sustain in case of a failure of pay from the imported, and need not repeat that he objected in toto to the tax.

Mr. Buck asked if, when on the question on the resolution, (if, adopted,) a separate vote could be given? He was answered no. Then he would observe to the gentleman that, if it could not be separated, he hoped it would not be introduced, it having been said the duty on sugar would operate on the poor; now, he said, here was an article introduced with it that would operate worse than the other; therefore, he should oppose both, if put together, when, if separated, he should have voted for the tax on molasses alone, as sugar was a great means of sustenance and use.

The Chairman again remarked (in reference to what had fallen from Mr. W. Smith) that the amendment was in order, though he did not think it the most fair way of introducing the subject.

Mr. Gallatin conceived that he was the best judge of the fairness of his proceedings; and as the Chairman had declared the amendment to be in order, he expected a question would be taken upon it.

Mr. Nicholas begged leave to differ in opinion from the Chair in this instance, though he must own much deference was due to it: he thought the proceedings perfectly fair. Mr. N. would vote for this, in order to have the two connected; that gentleman could now vote against the addition of molasses, then he would have an opportunity to vote on sugar alone. He should wish it extended to both alike. The gentleman (Mr. Buck) was mistaken in his application on this subject; it was not taxing the sustenance of the poor in one article more than another, for the sugar would most affect one part, yet molasses would as much affect another; he, therefore, hoped, if gentlemen wished fair and equal taxation, that this association would take place; this equalization would go to prevent any opposition to the tax, which would otherwise be hazarded.

Mr. Buck was satisfied with this explanation; therefore, supposing gentlemen who supported the amendment would vote for both, according to this modification, he should go with them; if not, he should oppose the amendment.

Mr. Dayton (the Speaker) said, he did not rise to speak to the point of order; he considered that as already settled by the Chairman. Every member, he said, against laying an additional tax upon molasses, would, of course, vote against the amendment; and all those who had no objection to the tax, but who did not wish it to be thus introduced, of whom he found there was not a few, might join them, as, after the additional tax on sugar was agreed to, that on molasses might be again introduced.

Mr. S. Smith said, he had some doubt before the last gentleman was up, of the propriety of tacking these two articles together, but now he had none. One part of the Union, he supposed, would be for voting out molasses: but his constituents would not like the tax on sugar, except it was accompanied with that on molasses; as a subject of sweetening he thought they should both go together. Mr. S. said, he had another article of sweetening, which he wished also to add to the resolution: great quantities of sugar-candy were manufactured in Holland and sent all over Germany; it was used with tea and coffee, in the place of sugar. This article, he said, was finding its way among the Germans in this country. At present it only paid a duty of 10 per cent. ad valorem, which was a very inadequate duty, when compared with that paid on sugar. Mr. S. said, he was against going into the subject of indirect taxes, but he thought with the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Gallatin) that it was his duty to make the resolution as good as he could. Nothing had been said to prove that we had not revenue enough for the present; but he would, however, move to add nine cents a pound upon sugar-candy imported.

Mr. S. said, he agreed with the Secretary of the Treasury, that sugar was amongst the most proper articles upon which to lay an additional impost; but he wished for some permanent source of revenue, and not adopt the trifling modes proposed. Gentlemen talked of deceiving the people; he said they could not be deceived; they would know there were two parties in that House, the one for direct, the other for indirect taxes. Those gentlemen who were opposed to direct taxes brought forward these articles in place of it. The people need not be told this; they saw it evidently enough.

Mr. Holland said, though he was opposed to direct taxes, he was also on sugar and molasses; he saw all the disadvantages of some other gentlemen on taxing West India produce at this critical juncture; but if it must pass, he should think it his duty to endeavor to make it pass as unexceptionably as possible; however, he should oppose both, and though it affected his constituents differently from those of Vermont, yet he should not include them as necessarily connected. Mr. H. thought if these were opposed, there might be many articles more proper to lay a tax on; but he thought there was no necessity for any this session.

The question for adding one cent per gallon on molasses was then put and carried.

Mr. S. Smith then moved that nine cents per pound be laid on sugar-candy imported, observing that it was much used by the Dutch, and there being much sweetening in it, it should bear a proportionate duty.

Mr. W. Smith wished the gentleman to be candid on the motive of his proposition.

Mr. S. Smith answered, that his conduct with respect to the subject had always been fair and unequivocal; he wished the whole proposition to be defeated, which he had before declared, but, to make it equal and consistent, he proposed the addition.

It was then put and carried.

The question was put on the whole resolution, as amended, and carried—yeas 52.

Friday, February 17

Increase of Duties.

SALT.

Mr. Harper then proposed that an additional duty of five cents per bushel should he laid upon all salt imported in the United States. [Mr. H. read the letter of the Secretary, wherein he mentions salt as being at a much lower rate of duty than in other countries, and that no tax laid upon it could be evaded, from its necessity and bulk.] Mr. H. added, as, in his opinion, satisfactory answers had been given to the objections which had been urged against this tax, it was not necessary to say more on the subject.

Mr. Gallatin said the arguments of the Secretary of the Treasury were excellent fiscal arguments, and went to say, "provided we can get money, no matter how." He says salt cannot be smuggled; that we know: whether the duty was increased, or remain as it was, the people must consume the same. This was true, and the same arguments might be used for taxing the light or the water. Of all the necessaries of life, a duty was most easily collected upon salt; and this was the reason which had induced other countries to tax it so heavily; and yet this was used as an argument for increasing the duty here; but he was not one of those who felt any consolation, upon such an increase of duty, that there were other countries where the duty was yet higher.

Mr. G. said, as to any satisfactory answers which had been given to the objections to this tax, he had not heard them; he believed they had not been answered at all; except, indeed, sullen silence might be deemed satisfactory answers; if it were, they had indeed been answered satisfactorily.

Mr. G. here repeated the objections to the tax which he had made on a former occasion, viz: that it would operate as a poll-tax; that it would fall partially on some districts of country, and upon some classes of citizens more than others. He said salt in that part of the country from which he came was already upwards of four dollars a bushel, and that it would be therefore oppressive to increase the evil, by adding fresh duties upon it.

Mr. Nicholas said a tax on salt was equally objectionable, whether it was considered as a poll-tax, or as a tax upon agriculture. As a poll-tax, every one would see the injustice of charging all men alike with a tax, without respect to their ability to pay it; as a tax upon agriculture, he was able to say something from experience. He was willing to give all the authority to the opinion of the Secretary of the Treasury which he could wish, but he could not yield his opinion to him. He knew that agriculture was at present very much depressed by the high price of salt; he had himself refrained from the use of it, by its dearness, though he believed his cattle had been the worse for it. The poorer class of citizens in the part of the country from which he came were generally owners of cattle, and employed themselves in taking care of them. These men found it at present as much as they could do to make a comfortable living, and any additional tax on salt would be very ill received by them. He was satisfied that it was a tax which would operate with great inequality; it was a tax upon one kind of employment—upon an employment which was generally pursued by the poorer classes, and consequently least able to pay it. It might be said, five cents a bushel was a trifle; but he said he objected to it from the principle of taking money where it could be got, as, if five cents were now to be added, the same argument would hold for adding another and another five on a future day.

Mr. Holland was opposed to the amendment; he said no article which could be mentioned would bear a greater augmentation than salt; indeed the whole revenue of the United States might be raised from it, because it must be used by every person; but that was no reason why the whole burden should be laid on it. In North Carolina, Mr. H. said, it was four dollars per bushel, which was sufficiently high without adding to the price, and was always a cash article, and difficult to be had for that. It being an article of absolute necessity, the rich would not pay more, if so much, as the poor.

Mr. Rutherford said, he was against this tax for two reasons; the first was on account of its inequality, and the next on account of its odiousness. A tax on salt, he said, was almost like taxing the common air. Farmers were obliged to use large quantities of it for their stock; it rendered them docile and easy to be managed. Indeed it could not be done without; a person was nothing without salt. The price at present was enormous on the frontier, and this duty would add prodigiously to it; for this reason he should give it his flat opposition.

Mr. Findlay said, because salt was necessary, and because it could not be smuggled, would not surely be sufficient arguments for increasing the duty upon it. The law of reason, he said, was the law of justice. Mr. F. gave an account of the progress of this tax. His colleague (Mr. Gallatin) must have been mistaken as to the price which this article bore in the Western country. He had himself lately paid six guineas for six bushels of salt. Indeed this was considered as the greatest inconvenience in that part of the country, and they could not at present be relieved from it. Providence, who generally bestowed the necessaries of life in a very general manner, had not provided them with salt. And shall we, for this reason, monopolize a revenue upon it? For the same reason would hold good for paying the whole upon it as a part. He trusted they would not be so unjust to the people of that country.

Mr. Harper said, after all the time which had been taken up in discussing this subject, he would not occupy the attention of the committee longer than while he made one or two remarks.

The gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Gallatin) had said that no answer had been given to his objections against an additional tax on salt. He should not enter into a dispute with that gentleman upon what might be deemed an answer; but he believed many members of that House would remember that an answer was given, and probably they might also think it a satisfactory one; at least it was so to one person. The objections brought against this tax would be well-founded, if the whole revenue was proposed to be raised from it; or if it were intended as a substitute for a land tax, or any other great object; if two or three millions were wanted from it, then it might be objected to upon good ground; but when one hundred thousand dollars only were proposed to be drawn from this source, he did not think the objections would hold. Admitting, said Mr. H., that there was some inequality in the operation of this tax, those persons upon whom it fell heaviest were exonerated from many other taxes which other parts of the country had to pay. They had, for instance, just agreed to increase the duty upon a certain species of cotton goods, of which they would not purchase a single yard. The present revenue was six millions four hundred thousand dollars, of which salt pays near three hundred thousand dollars. The people on the frontier, who pay for salt, are in a great measure exempt from other articles taxed; they purchased neither foreign wines nor spirits, high priced dresses nor furniture; all they wanted was corduroys, &c., which was very unfrequent. If five cents per bushel was laid on salt, those persons would have about a dollar a year more to pay, and nine-tenths not half a dollar. What could be more easy? Indeed, except the people were told of the duty they would not know it, as its effects would be so trifling.

With respect to the price of salt at Fort Pitt, as a gentleman had observed, it might be high, but was this occasioned by a duty? No, but by the situation of the country. Ought they not, then, he asked, to devise some species of tax by which to draw some part of the revenue from the inhabitants of the back country? He thought so far from this being wrong, that justice required it. This subject did not address the understanding, but the sensibility of the House, or perhaps the sensibility of those out of the House.

The objections against the tax which had been urged, he thought, ought not to have any weight, since it would operate with the greatest equality upon the whole, and there would be safety, propriety, and justice, in making the augmentation in question. Suppose two cents were put, instead of five; this would raise a good sum, and be very easy.

Mr. S. Smith moved that the committee rise; which was negatived—there being only twenty-five in favor of it.

Mr. W. Smith said the question had best be taken on blank cents, then five, four, or any number of cents could afterwards be added.

The question was then put, and lost—yeas 41, nays 48.

Saturday, February 18.

Naval Appropriation.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill granting an appropriation for finishing the three frigates, and also upon the bill repealing that part of the act which provided for the officering and manning the frigates, both having been committed to the same Committee of the Whole. That for repealing a part of the former law came first under consideration.

Mr. W. Smith said he could not abandon the idea of our some time becoming a naval power; he very much disliked the repealing this act; in order, however, to make the bill more palatable, and to remove some of the embarrassments which the Senate would otherwise have to encounter, he would move to substitute, instead of the word "repeal," the words "suspend for —— years."

Mr. Coit thought the very beginning of the frigates a wild notion, and hoped the most distant idea of manning them would not enter gentlemen's minds; he should therefore oppose the motion.

Mr. Venable said, it seemed the gentleman who moved the amendment did not think it necessary the ships should now be manned. The operation of the amendment appeared to put it in the power of one branch of the Legislature, at a future day, to man the ships, and send them to sea. He was surprised at the changeableness of the gentleman who moved and favored the equipment. When a naval armament was first proposed, it was objected to, as looking like forming a Naval Establishment. They then told us it was expressly to repel the encroachments of the Algerines; and that, as soon as peace was obtained with that power, the building of them was to stop. Now they come forward, and avow a desire to have a Navy Establishment. Thus originate evils which if not stopped early, would spread and become dangerous. The only fair argument they have on the subject is, that a Navy is now become necessary. Certain it is, that, if they intend to have a Naval Establishment, to protect our commerce and repel our injuries, three frigates will be very incompetent to the object. He should not object to finishing them, and only because so much had been expended on them already, but should ever oppose fitting them for sea.

Mr. Swanwick asked the gentleman what security there was in a peace with Algiers? Could he say we were at peace with them now? Certainly we are in a worse situation with that power now than then; we are parting with our cash, (which makes it such a scarce article,) and yet we have no benefit. Now it is said it is altogether a vision—a fancy or a dream. Then gentlemen get up and ask what we are to do with three frigates? He would answer, that so far as they went, they gave stability and protection to our commerce. True, they were not thirty frigates, but he believed, few as they were, they would save more than five times what they cost in only one year. The richest ships we have are now taken and robbed by every picaroon and pirate infesting the seas, because we have no security; and he was surprised it was not worse. He had no doubt but it would be an emolument; it would be a protection to the great revenue we enjoy. That very trade, he said, which was subject to spoliation from such petty robbers, paid into the revenue five or six millions of duty annually. If this was still permitted to be encroached on, it was an error, and it would soon be seen; and this was by a people called "free and enlightened." He had no doubt they would soon be enlightened enough to see they had done wrong. If gentlemen are against finishing these frigates, why do they not come forward and declare it? Let us sell them, said he, at public auction. What will be the effect if we have it told at our wharves that we object to man them, because we have peace with Algiers? He hoped they would be manned, or else have tacked to the bill, that, when finished, they were to be sold for East Indiamen or something. If that were gentlemen's wish, this was the time to come forward and say so, and let it be put in the bill. He would ask, Was there any thing in the name of Government, if it operated in this manner? It was extraordinary conduct, indeed.

Gentlemen say they will not vote to finish these frigates, except the repeal for manning is included. When it goes up to the Senate, may they not say they will not vote to finish, except it be to man them? But, Mr. S. said, he supposed gentlemen depended upon negotiation, if any thing was wrong. What were the consequences of our late negotiation? We have two things before us—treaty or ships. As for treaty, we have seen our money sent across the Atlantic, and scattered a thousand ways: this was throwing it into the ocean. He had heard of a Doge of Venice throwing a ring into the sea to marry it: it seemed this money was gone for the same purpose, and its use would be no better than the Doge's ring. He thought the most complete treaty was, power to resist aggression. This business of negotiation is very unprofitable. You may obtain fair promises from foreign ministers, but very poor redress, if any.

The question on the amendment was put and lost—ayes 30, noes 51.

Mr. Harrison moved for the committee to rise and report the bill without amendments.

Mr. Nicholas said, it seemed that gentlemen were making a new business of this. At the time it was brought forward, gentlemen voted in favor of it, because the law was to be repealed. He voted to separate the bills, because he conceived it would not be right to say to the Senate, You shall do two things together, or neither. He hoped the committee would rise, that the House may not have such power over the business as to keep it back. If the other bill pass the Senate, said he, we can take up this, and pass it in a short time.

Mr. Parker thought this a most extraordinary procedure, to say we will not pass the appropriation bill till we know the Senate have agreed to that for repealing. He thought the Senate had as great a right to exercise their discretion as that House. He never expected to have heard such expressions. This was holding out a dictum for their conduct: this he thought neither fair nor proper.

Mr. Venable thought the bills were connected. He wished to vote merely for finishing the frigates. He hoped the committee would not rise, but that it might be so amended as to add the other bill to it. When he voted for the appropriation, he said, he voted for it only in such a manner as should be reconcilable with his judgment. If the gentleman would waive his motion, and the House would so connect it, he should be gratified.

Mr. Harrison said, as the last gentleman's ideas were fully to his purpose, he should withdraw his motion.

On motion being made for connecting the bills—

Mr. Buck hoped it would not prevail. The only reason he saw to object, (and he thought that very forcible,) was, that it discovered a jealousy in that House of another branch of the Government, which he thought very unjustifiable. He had voted for the repeal, but should not vote for the appropriation. He thought they ought to act for themselves, without reference to the other branch. Any member may vote which way he pleased, but to say he would not vote for one without they go to the other, was unfair. He could see no justice in such a mistrust from this branch of the Legislature. Suppose, he said, the bills go to the Senate separately, they may concur in the appropriation, and reject the appeal. Even in that situation, were it to be left, the Executive could not man the frigates, unless they could obtain further appropriations—to obstruct which would be preferable, and would put it out of the power of the Senate to embarrass the House.

Mr. Venable said his vote was given without any relation whatever to the Senate. He thought any act passed by this House could not, when sent up to the Senate, be termed disrespectful, for each branch had a right to act for themselves. He was surprised to hear the gentleman last up say he should not vote this appropriation; for he had heard him say, on a former occasion, that he would vote an appropriation for any treaty, law, or whatever should exist to call for it. Mr. V. confessed himself to be of a very different opinion; for he always thought the House had a discretionary power to grant it or not, but that gentleman had long said it had none.

Mr. Buck said, as his doctrines had been called in question, he must beg indulgence to explain. He never said that the House had not a right to judge on the propriety of appropriation in an existing law. He conceived a treaty quite another thing. The President and Senate have a constitutional power to make a treaty; in that, he said, he did advocate that that House had no right to withhold appropriations; but in laws, where the power of making appropriations rests partly in that House, they had a right to grant or withhold. This, he said, he had always held.

Mr. Nicholas said, this appeared to him a very unreasonable clamor in behalf of the Senate. The gentleman last up seemed very careful not to awaken the jealousy of the Senate. How could he know what part would awaken that idea of disrespect? He had formed his mind to vote on the subject, and surely every member might do so, without a fear of showing disrespect to another branch. The gentleman had said that this House may refuse to appropriate for a law. Now, suppose the Senate refuse to repeal without we appropriate, we are then forced to choose one of two evils. Very often, Mr. N. said, the House were obliged to appropriate for a law, it may be, so far executed that they could not refuse. Suppose the President should, after this, appoint officers to enlist men for the frigates, how could the House refuse to pay them? While a law existed to man these ships, it would be difficult to prevent it: it would enable those who were friendly to the measure to carry it into effect. He hoped, therefore, the House would not run the risk by leaving it open to such possible intrusion.

Mr. S. Smith thought this was a very unfair way of doing business, but he had been used to such things. He thought this form of tacking was very improper and unfair. It had been observed that we were the most free and enlightened people, but he thought those who advocated these measures proved the very contrary.

Mr. Swanwick said, it appeared to him a kind of Legislative stratagem. The whole intention of the business could be easily discovered. If there was nothing improper, why should they fear to trust the Senate with it? Having the yeas and nays on both bills, gentlemen could not easily excuse them for voting for the repeal, as it would go out into the country that many had voted contrary to their arguments. Thus we are forced to vote against our own opinion, or not have the frigates finished. He could plainly see that gentlemen meant to defeat the object, and, he thought, in a very unfair way.

Mr. W. Lyman spoke much of the impolicy and impropriety of the measures of those gentlemen who supported naval preparations. Some time back, he said, those very gentlemen were advising us to cultivate our land, and not regard commerce—it was a broken reed to depend on; but now, they want to put the nation to an enormous expense to protect that commerce they thought so lightly of! The frigates would cost more than double the money which was at first estimated: this would be a disgrace to any nation. The whole process of the business had been bad, and he had no doubt but the estimate now before the House would be found deficient. Though he thought a small Navy would be useful, yet, until he saw its process conducted more fairly, and with more discretion, he should not vote a shilling to it: for the waste of money which had been discovered in this, had given him a distaste to it.

A remark having fallen from Mr. L., on the constitutionality of this appropriation—

Mr. W. Smith said, that, what the gentleman observed, only respected an Army. The constitution says, an appropriation for the Army shall not be made for more than two years, but it said not a word about restricting a Navy; and it is certain that the framers of the constitution had a view to a Navy, as in three different parts it makes mention of it. [Here Mr. S. read those parts from the constitution.] The question was not whether to repeal the law or not, but whether the appropriation bill was to be tacked to the repeal. When before taken up, a majority voted for two bills, and they are accordingly reported, and now the two are to be united. This, said he, is directing the Senate to vote a certain way, because this House saw it right. This was a kind of coercion which would oblige them (if they support their independence, which they certainly will) to reject the repeal. This, he said, was a spirit which every gentleman in the House felt. He therefore hoped there would be two bills.

Mr. Gallatin did not conceive this a question on the constitution; it was not on the power of the House as to the subject of appropriation, but merely on connecting the two bills. He conceived it perfectly right and proper to connect them, because the subject of them was the same. It was not novel: appropriation and repeal had before been connected. Indeed, he thought it improper to hold the Senate in any consideration at all. He should not be guided by any apprehensions of what they would do. The gentleman last up had said, it was unfair to connect them, as it would oblige members who opposed one to vote for both. Now, a majority will always decide, and those in the minority will always be affected. That gentleman would rather take a question on each; but Mr. G. said he would rather on both together. But both will not be material, more than in a certain degree. He further observed that a decision had been come to to keep the subjects apart. This, Mr. G. said, was only in order to give leave to the committee to report one or two bills. But that could not now affect the decision. The House might now do as they pleased. He looked upon the first act of the law as rather explanatory of the other. A law passed last year for the equipment of the frigates. The first law expired as to the manning them. It is therefore only for fear the word "equipment" should be so construed as to mean "manning," that we wish a connection of these bills.

He thought it more candid and fair to have both the objects before the Senate at one time than to separate them. If they think it an attack upon their privileges they would act consistently therewith.

Mr. Williams could not see where the difference was, whether the bills were apart or not. He was sorry any jealousy should be discovered towards another branch; if the amendment were to go to the Senate they had power to reject any part. The next Congress would take a view of the subject, and do what they thought right, as the frigates would not be fit to be manned till then.

Mr. Buck again repeated his objections to uniting the bills.

Mr. N. Smith thought there could be no good reasons for uniting the bills. There had not yet been any appropriation made, and the money was nearly expended; he thought the appropriation should be passed immediately, as he had no doubt but both Houses would ultimately unite in this object. If, therefore, any money was to be appropriated, let it be done, and then if the House thought proper to agree to the repeal, it could be done, as no delay ought to be made.

The gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Gallatin) said the other day, that he would not, under any situation, vote the supply until he knew whether there was any intention to fit them for sea or not. This, Mr. S. thought the principal point; but except that gentleman, with others, thought the ships were to remain in the same situation as at present, it certainly was necessary to agree to the appropriations; this was voted on all hands, though some could not agree to go all lengths. He did not believe many could be found in the House who would wish them to remain and rot on the stocks; but for gentlemen to say they would not agree to grant the supply except the other part was repealed, he thought wrong. It was true, they had the power to withhold even appropriations for the President's salary, Senate, &c., but if such opposition was supported, Government could not long exist. That House had power over the Senate, and, vice versa, the Senate over that House—each had a right to think and do as they pleased, but it would be wrong in one to curtail the privilege of the other by an ill-timed opposition; this was merely to show a spleen which could not but be to the detriment and delay of business.

Mr. W. Smith rose to answer some observations made by Mr. Gallatin and Mr. Venable, and proceeded to show the impropriety of tacking the bills; he said it would produce insurmountable difficulties. He never could agree to this tortus discordans being sent up to the Senate.

Mr. Venable answered. The question was then put for tacking the two bills, and carried, ayes 41, noes 36.

The committee then rose, and the House took up the amendments reported by the Committee of the Whole. Whereupon, the first amendment reported by the Committee of the Whole House, for adding a new section, to be the second section of the said bill, being read, in the words following, to wit: