Mr. Dana.—After this vindication of meritorious men who have been removed from office, I will now attend more particularly to some observations of the gentleman from Virginia. He has spoken of the judicial act of the 13th of February, 1801, as if the passage of it had been attended with improper circumstances, and thence has attempted to deduce the inference that it ought to be repealed. He read part of the journal of the last session, and charged certain members of the House with having been engaged in opposing the public will at the time when the act was approved. The journal shows, that on the 13th of February, eighteen hundred and one, the representatives, voting by States, proceeded to the twenty-ninth ballot for President, and the result was the same as had taken place before; the votes of eight States given for Thomas Jefferson; the votes of six States for Aaron Burr; and the votes of two States divided. Much has been said on this topic, which has at length been brought forward as a public charge by the gentleman from Virginia. It is now time that it should be examined.
According to the principles of our Government, the public will, when explicitly ascertained by an authentic act, is the law of the land, and must be obeyed. Of this there can be no doubt; it is beyond all question. But this public will is not merely the will of part of the community, a section of the people; it is the will of the great body of American citizens. The highest and most solemn expression of the public will in this country is the Constitution of the United States. This was agreed to by the General Convention; was transmitted to the Legislatures of the several States by the unanimous resolution of Congress under the Confederation; was recommended by all those Legislatures, when they passed laws for submitting it to conventions for their ratification, and was finally ratified by the conventions of all the States in the Union. It was thus established by the general consent. In this we should acknowledge the high authority of the public will.
There is, however, a misfortune which attends the argumentation of some gentlemen. They substitute a part for the whole; and would confound the will of a certain portion of the people, however vaguely expressed, with the will of the whole public body as explicitly manifested by an authentic act.
What manifestation was there of the public will relative to the late election of a President of the United States? The only authentic evidence of the public will on this subject proved, that Thomas Jefferson, of Virginia, and Aaron Burr, of New York, were equally the objects of approbation. The majority of the electors had given them an equal number of votes. What then was the difference of right between them? Was it, that one of the candidates was a Virginian? Was it that the members of Congress were assembled on the banks of the Potomac, with Virginia in view on the other side? Must it be acknowledged as the prerogative of that State to impose a Chief Magistrate on the Union? Or was there a difference of right, because Virginia, with its extent and population, could make more clamor than any other State? The noise of so great a State may sometimes seem loud enough for the voice of the people of the United States. And are they, therefore, in this House to be confounded with each other? If so, the observations about the public will, of which we have lately heard so much from a certain quarter, must be understood to mean the will of Virginia; and we may thus judge of the argumentation when gentlemen from that State are speaking of the respect due to the public will.
Two persons were presented, in constitutional form, to the House of Representatives, as being equally candidates for the office of President: one from Virginia and the other from New York. When they were so presented, the choice between the two candidates was devolved on the Representatives, by the Constitution of the United States. After maturely considering the question, it was for them, as ultimate electors, to vote as they judged to be most for the public welfare. They voted by States, as required by the constitution. And are gentlemen to be here accused for exercising the constitutional right of election according to the conviction of their own judgments? When called upon, under the constitution, to elect one of the two candidates, were they not bound, by the nature of their duty, to give their votes according as the one or the other was by them judged to be more or less preferable? Upon what principle can gentlemen be accused of hostility to the interest of the people, because they did not think proper to elect the candidate from Virginia? Are our affairs already reduced to such a situation that it is to be charged as a public offence, if any member of this House has failed to vote for a Virginian to be the President of the United States?
It was the constitutional right of members of this House, in deciding between the two candidates, to give their ballots for the one whom they believed to be superior in practical capacity for administering the Government—one whom they believed to be not hostile to the commercial interests of the country, and not disposed to subject the Union to the domination of a particular State, whatever might be its lordly pretensions in consequence of extent of territory or antiquity of dominion.
As the gentleman from Virginia has thought proper to speak of events which took place about the time of passing the act in question, allow me, sir, to mention one circumstance, of which he has said nothing. The act, as finally enrolled, was signed by the Speaker of the House of Representatives after the balloting for a President had commenced; and the Clerk carried it to the other House for the signature of their President. The candidate from Virginia was then in the chair of the Senate. The Clerk of this House, on first presenting himself, as was customary, at the door of the Senate Chamber, was not admitted. The situation came to the knowledge of a Senator, and was communicated to the Senate. After the sense of that body was found to be for his admission, the door was opened, and the Clerk was admitted to deliver his message, and present the enrolled bill for signature. It was then signed by the President of the Senate.
What should be thought of this, as taken in connection with the fate of the act and pendency of the Presidential election? Was it a circumstance which must ever be remembered with mortification, and which therefore will never be forgiven?
To give a further color to the suggestion that the passage of the act was attended with improper circumstances, the attempt has been made to impress an idea that it was adopted without mature deliberation, and hurried through its different stages in a reprehensible manner. If we are not willing to be misled by pretext, let us examine what was the fact.
A recurrence to the journals of the House will prove that the subject of the Judicial Establishment was recommended by the President of the United States to the attention of Congress at two successive sessions. In his communication at the opening of the first session of the sixth Congress, he recommended the subject in the following terms:
"To give due effect to the civil administration of Government, and to ensure a just execution of the laws, a revision and amendment of the Judiciary system is indispensably necessary. In this extensive country it cannot but happen that numerous questions respecting the interpretation of the laws and the rights and duties of officers and citizens must arise. On the one hand, the laws should be executed; on the other, individuals should be guarded from oppression. Neither of these objects is sufficiently assured under the present organization of the Judicial Department. I therefore earnestly recommend the subject to your serious consideration."
In the House of Representatives, this part of the President's Speech was referred to a select committee. They reported a bill which contained a variety of provisions for amending the system. The bill was referred to a Committee of the Whole, in which it was discussed several days, and was afterwards recommitted to the same gentlemen who had reported it. As it was printed for the use of the members, and the subject was extensively interesting to the community, it was judged proper to defer a final decision until another session, and in the mean time gentlemen might have an opportunity to acquire information that would assist them to form a more satisfactory judgment.
At the second session of the sixth Congress, the subject was again recommended by the President. These are his words:
"It is, in every point of view, of such primary importance to carry the laws into prompt and faithful execution, and to render that part of the administration of justice which the constitution and laws devolve on the Federal courts, as convenient to the people as may consist with their present circumstances, that I cannot omit once more to recommend to your serious consideration the Judiciary system of the United States. No subject is more interesting than this to the public happiness; and to none can those improvements which may have been suggested by experience be more beneficially applied."
On this recommendation a select committee was appointed. That committee reported a bill to provide for the more convenient organization of the courts of the United States. The bill underwent a long discussion and a variety of amendments. It was finally passed in the House of Representatives by a majority of 51 to 43; and in the Senate by a majority of 16 to 11. After knowing these facts, will gentlemen have the hardihood to call this a hasty measure?
Compare the whole proceedings with what took place respecting a former act. Gentlemen have spoken of the general power of Congress to repeal acts passed by their predecessors. Are they prepared to repeal the act to which I now refer? It is the act relative to the temporary and permanent seat of Government, passed in July, 1790. That act was carried in the Senate by a majority of 14 to 12. In the House of Representatives, a Committee of the Whole agreed to it as it came from the Senate. Twelve different amendments were proposed in the House; the yeas and nays were taken on each of them, and every amendment was rejected—all in one day. A motion was then made for the third reading of the bill on the Monday following; the motion was negatived. It was moved that the third reading should be on the next day; this was negatived. The yeas and nays were taken twelve times during the sitting. A motion was made to adjourn; this was negatived. The general rule of the House being against reading a bill twice on the same day without special order, a motion for then reading the bill the third time was made on the part of its advocates, and carried. On taking the yeas and nays, for the thirteenth time in one day, the bill passed by a majority of 32 to 29. Mark the smallness of the majority in both Houses; the utter rejection of every amendment in the House of Representatives; the hurried manner in which it was forced on to the final question. Recollect other considerations relative to the passage of that act, and then judge whether it was not attended with circumstances signally improper. If matters of this kind constitute a sufficient cause for gentlemen to repeal any act passed by their predecessors, why should we remain here in pursuance of this act? Will any gentleman say it is for our personal convenience that the seat of Government is now at this place? Is it at present for the public convenience? Is it less expensive for individuals, or for the public, than it would be in some of your commercial cities? Have you here the opportunities for valuable information which might be had elsewhere? What, then, should detain us, if it be not a regard to stability and consistency in public proceedings, combined with a regard to the expectations of respectable persons seriously interested in the question? But if you may repeal the act organizing the Judicial system, what principle is there that ought to confine the Government to the place in which we are now assembled? Repeal this act, as is proposed by the bill on your table, and you shake the principle of public stability and consistency. Repeal this act, and there can be no principle of constitutional obligation, none of political honor, or legal right, to detain you here.
Mr. Lowndes moved that the further consideration of the bill be postponed until the first Monday in December next; on which a debate of considerable length ensued; when, the question being taken thereupon, it passed in the negative—yeas 32, nays 59.
And, after debate thereon, the main question was taken that the said bill do pass, and resolved in the affirmative—yeas 59, nays 32, as follows:
Yeas.—Willis Alston, John Archer, John Bacon, Theodorus Bailey, Phanuel Bishop, Richard Brent, Robert Brown, William Butler, Samuel J. Cabell, Thomas Claiborne, Matthew Clay, John Clopton, John Condit, Richard Cutts, Thomas T. Davis, John Dawson, William Dickson, Lucas Elmendorph, Ebenezer Elmer, John Fowler, William B. Giles, Edwin Gray, Andrew Gregg, Joseph Heister, William Helms, Wm. Hoge, James Holland, David Holmes, George Jackson, Charles Johnson, William Jones, Michael Leib, John Milledge, Samuel L. Mitchill, Thomas Moore, James Mott, Anthony New, Thomas Newton, jun., Joseph H. Nicholson, John Randolph, jun., John Smilie, John Smith, (of New York,) John Smith, (of Virginia,) Josiah Smith, Samuel Smith, Henry Southard, Richard Stanford, Joseph Stanton, jun., John Stewart, John Taliaferro, jun., David Thomas, Philip R. Thompson, Abram Trigg, John Trigg, Philip Van Cortlandt, John P. Van Ness, Joseph B. Varnum, Isaac Van Horne, and Henry Woods.
Nays.—Thomas Boude, John Campbell, Manasseh Cutler, Samuel W. Dana, John Davenport, John Dennis, William Eustis, Abiel Foster, Calvin Goddard, Roger Griswold, William Barry Grove, Seth Hastings, Joseph Hemphill, Archibald Henderson, William H. Hill, Benjamin Huger, Thomas Lowndes, Lewis R. Morris, Joseph Pierce, Thomas Plater, Nathan Read, John Rutledge, John Stanley, Benjamin Tallmadge, Samuel Tenney, Thomas Tillinghast, George B. Upham, Killian K. Van Rensselaer, Peleg Wadsworth, Benjamin Walker, Lemuel Williams, and Henry Woods.
Mr. Thomas, from the committee appointed to inquire into the expediency of extinguishing the claims of the United States, for certain balances, which, by the Commissioners appointed to settle the accounts between the United States and the individual States, were reported to be due from several of the States to the United States, made a report, as follows:
That the following balances were, by the said Commissioners, reported to be due from the States hereinafter mentioned, to wit: From the State of New York, two millions seventy-four thousand eight hundred and forty-six dollars; from the State of Pennsylvania, seventy-six thousand seven hundred and nine dollars; from the State of Delaware, six hundred and twelve thousand four hundred and twenty-eight dollars; from the State of Maryland, one hundred and fifty-one thousand six hundred and forty dollars; from the State of Virginia, one hundred thousand eight hundred and seventy-nine dollars; and from the State of North Carolina, five hundred and one thousand and eighty-two dollars.
That, as none of these States has evinced a disposition to pay any part of those balances, except the State of New York, which has been credited on the books of the Treasury for two hundred and twenty-two thousand eight hundred and ten dollars and six cents, for money expended in erecting fortifications, pursuant to an act of Congress, passed the 5th of February, 1799; but as it would be unequal to ask a further payment from that State exclusively, and as it does not appear that any measure of coercion can ever be resorted to, a further continuance of the demands against those States, the justice and equity of which they do not admit, will, in the opinion of the committee, answer no useful purpose; but, on the contrary, is calculated to occasion perpetual irritation and disquiet, as well to the creditor as to the debtor States.
The committee are, therefore, of opinion, that it is expedient to extinguish the claims of the United States for those balances, and for that purpose report a bill, which is herewith submitted.
The report was laid on the table. The bill was twice read, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Wednesday next.
An engrossed bill for revising and amending the acts concerning Naturalization was read the third time, and on the question that the same do pass, it was resolved in the affirmative—yeas 59, nays 27, as follows:
Yeas.—Willis Alston, John Archer, John Bacon, Theodorus Bailey, James A. Bayard, Phanuel Bishop, Thomas Boude, Robert Brown, William Butler, Samuel J. Cabell, Thomas Claiborne, Matthew Clay, John Clopton, John Condit, Thomas T. Davis, John Dawson, John Dennis, William Dickson, Lucas Elmendorph, Ebenezer Elmer, William Eustis, John Fowler, Wm. B. Giles, Andrew Gregg, William Barry Grove, Joseph Heister, William Helms, Joseph Hemphill, William Hoge, James Holland, David Holmes, George Jackson, William Jones, Michael Leib, John Milledge, Samuel L. Mitchill, Thomas Moore, Thomas Newton, jun., Joseph H. Nicholson, John Smilie, Israel Smith, John Smith, (of New York,) John Smith, (of Virginia,) Samuel Smith, Henry Southard, Richard Stanford, Joseph Stanton, jr., John Stewart, David Thomas, Thomas Tillinghast, Philip R. Thompson, Abram Trigg, Philip Van Cortlandt, John P. Van Ness, Joseph B. Varnum, Isaac Van Horne, Robert Williams, and Henry Woods.
Nays.—John Campbell, Manasseh Cutler, Samuel W. Dana, John Davenport, Abiel Foster, Calvin Goddard, Roger Griswold, Archibald Henderson, William H. Hill, Benjamin Huger, Thomas Lowndes, Ebenezer Mattoon, Lewis R. Morris, Thomas Plater, Nathan Read, John Rutledge, John C. Smith, Josiah Smith, John Stanley, Benjamin Tallmadge, Samuel Tenney, George B. Upham, Killian K. Van Rensselaer, Peleg Wadsworth, Benjamin Walker, and Lemuel Williams.
The House went into a Committee of the Whole on the report of the committee to whom was referred the petition of sundry inhabitants of the State of Pennsylvania, settled on the lands claimed under grants from the State of Connecticut, antecedent to the trial before the court of commissioners between the State of Pennsylvania and Connecticut.
The report of the committee embraces an historical view of the Wyoming controversy, recites the act of Pennsylvania, for preventing intrusions upon land in Northampton, Northumberland, and Luzerne Counties. The report then proceeds to state:
"The petitioners complain of these acts as unconstitutional, and pray that provisions may be made by law for transferring the proceedings under these laws from the State Courts of Pennsylvania to the Courts of the United States; and that further provision may be made by law, that in the trial of any prosecution in virtue of the said acts the defendant may have a venire facias to summon juries from some State, other than Pennsylvania. Your committee conceive that the right of jurisdiction was finally settled by the decree of Trenton, of the 30th December, 1783, and that by the decision of the circuit court for the district of Pennsylvania in April, 1795, the whole question of the right of soil was fully taken up and decided by the court, in a case the most favorable for the defendant; which decision not having been revised and reversed, should also be considered as final and conclusive.
"Your committee therefore, upon the whole circumstances of the case, are of opinion, that the measures contemplated by the petitioners would tend very much to increase the embarrassments already experienced by the State of Pennsylvania, in extending and enforcing its lawful jurisdiction over the lands in question, and that it would be highly inexpedient on the part of the United States to interfere with the regulations of the States in that respect, or to countenance, by any means whatever, any circumstances of insubordination to the State authority.
"Your committee are therefore of opinion that the prayer of the petitioners ought not to be granted."
After a debate, the committee rose and reported their agreement to the report.
A motion was made and lost to recommit the report to a select committee.
It was then moved to postpone the further consideration of the report till the last day of November next. Not carried.
The question was then taken on concurring with the Committee of the Whole in their report, by yeas and nays, and agreed to—yeas 60, nays 17.
And so the petition was rejected.
The House being informed that Narsworthy Hunter, the Delegate from the Mississippi Territory, in this House, died last evening:
On motion, it was
Resolved, That a committee be appointed to take order for superintending the funeral of Narsworthy Hunter, late a Delegate from the Mississippi Territory; and that this House will attend the same.
Resolved, That the members testify their respect for the memory of the said Narsworthy Hunter, by wearing a crape on the left arm, for one month.
Resolved, That the Speaker of this House address a letter to the Governor of the Mississippi Territory, to inform him of the death of Narsworthy Hunter, the Delegate from the said Territory in this House, in order that measures may be taken to supply the vacancy occasioned thereby.
Ordered, That Mr. Leib, Mr. Davis, Mr. Holland, Mr. Rutledge, and Mr. Lewis R. Morris, be appointed a committee, pursuant to the first resolution.
The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill to extinguish the claims of the United States for balances reported against certain States by Commissioners appointed to settle the accounts between the United States and the individual States.
Mr. Thomas.—Mr. Chairman, I rise, with a great deal of diffidence, to deliver my sentiments on this floor, as I have not been accustomed to public speaking; however, a sense of my duty as a Representative of the United States, as well as the immediate Representative from the State of New York, impels me, on this occasion, to ask the indulgence of the Committee while I make a few remarks on the subject of the bill now under consideration.
Sir, a number of the debtor States, and particularly the one which I have the honor to represent, have always believed that they were prodigiously injured in the settlement that was made; they have always believed that there was something radically wrong, grossly unequal, in the accounts exhibited by the individual States, and allowed by the Board of Commissioners; in this belief, they have frequently called for information on the subject, for a re-examination of that settlement, and have as often been denied it.
Much might be said to prove that the very economical system adopted and adhered to by the State of New York in limiting the prices of produce, and in liquidating the accounts of her citizens for supplies furnished during the Revolutionary war, operated particularly prejudicial to that State in the settlement. I shall, however, waive any remarks on this for the present, and confine myself principally to the rule which was adopted for apportioning the expenses of the war among the several States. Sir, the committee will recollect that by an act of Congress passed in the year 1789, the enumeration of inhabitants made in the year 1791 was adopted as the rule for apportioning this debt among the thirteen States.
I shall in the first place examine the original contract entered into by these States, and under which these expenses were incurred, and then endeavor to show the effect which, adopting an enumeration made seven or eight years after the close of the war, had upon the several States different from what the same rule would have produced had the apportionment been made according to the numbers in each State at that period, say 1784.
In the year 1778, the people of these States entered into a confederation for various purposes, one of which was, to prosecute the war against Great Britain. In the eighth article of this compact it was expressly agreed that—
"All charges of the war, and all other expenses that should be incurred for the common defence, and general welfare, and allowed by the United States in Congress assembled, should be defrayed out of a common treasury, which should be supplied by the several States in proportion to the value of all lands within each State granted to or surveyed for any person as such lands and the building and improvements thereon should be estimated, according to such mode as the United States in Congress assembled, should from time to time direct and appoint."
This, Mr. Chairman, was the agreement under which this debt was incurred; and here allow me to ask the honorable gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Bacon) whether he was correct when he told us the other day that this settlement had been made agreeably to the articles of Confederation; and, further, whether, agreeably to that compact, the State which he represents would have been allowed for her losses in the Penobscot expedition, which has enabled her to become a creditor State of upwards of one million two hundred thousand dollars, and more than one-third of the whole amount of the balances. Sir, had the original agreement under which these expenses were incurred been adhered to in the settlement, no one ought now to complain; but, in order to comply with it, the expenses of the war ought to have been apportioned among the several States according to the value of the lands and buildings at the time these expenses were incurred, and I do contend that the period immediately after the termination of the war was the only proper one for carrying into effect this stipulation. I am persuaded that no gentleman on this floor will deny that the existing circumstances of the several States at that period were the most proper to determine the just proportion which each State ought to pay of these expenses, by whatever rule might be adopted. Admitting, then, that Congress had the power, and it was judged expedient to deviate from the original contract, and adopt as the rule of apportionment the enumeration of inhabitants as a more practicable one, ought it not to have had reference to the numbers in each State at the close of the war? Most unquestionably, Mr. Chairman, no gentleman will deny this, and that the year 1784 was the proper time. It may, however, be said that no enumeration was made till the year 1791, seven years afterwards. I grant it. But will this alter the justness of my position? Not at all. It must be obvious in the mind of every gentleman who has reflected on the subject, that the relative numbers in each State had changed materially between the year 1784, when this settlement ought to have been made, and the year 1791, when it was made. In order to establish this fact, I have adopted this method; I have admitted what I believe every gentleman who hears me will, without hesitation: that there has been no material variation in the increase of population in the several States since the year 1784; that the increase was nearly, if not correctly, in the same ratio between the years 1784 and 1791, with the increase between the years 1791 and 1801; that is, that the relative increase of population in the several States was nearly, if not correctly, in the same proportion for the seven years previous to the year 1791 that it was for the ten years subsequent to that period.
This I have established as my data, by which I have ascertained the numbers in each State in the year 1784, and having apportioned the whole debt among the several States, according to the enumeration, I find the following to be the result:
That the State of Massachusetts, instead of being a creditor of $1,248,801, she would have been a creditor for only $863,267; that the State of Connecticut, instead of being a creditor State of $619,121, she would have been a debtor State for $235,419; that the State of Rhode Island, instead of being a creditor State for $299,611, she would have been a debtor State for $13,212; that the State of New Jersey, instead of being a creditor for $49,030, she would have been a debtor State for $300,201; that the State of New York, instead of being a debtor State for $2,074,846, she would have been a creditor State for $965,921, &c.
This, Mr. Chairman, would have been the situation of these States had the apportionment been made according to the numbers in each State in the year 1784. As for the accuracy of this statement I think I can with safety pledge myself; it is, however, open for any gentleman who will give himself the trouble to examine it for himself. The principles on which it has been made cannot be disputed, as it respects the State of New York; if any thing, it does not make enough in her favor, for it is evident that the emigration into that State from the neighboring States was greater for the first seven years after the close of the war than it has been for any subsequent seven years.
Will, then, Mr. Chairman, any gentleman hesitate a moment to pronounce the rule of apportionment which was adopted unjust, unequal, and erroneous? Will any gentleman say, sir, that the rule of apportionment was a just one, or as just as the nature of the case would admit of, which brought the State of New York in debt upwards of two millions—two-thirds of the whole amount of the balances—when, on the principles of righteousness, on the principles of legal contract, or any other principles, but an unauthorized act of Congress, that State would have been a creditor State for nearly a million?
Mr. Chairman, I admit, as the settlement has been made, and the creditor States have received their balances, that it would be improper now to take up this subject de novo, and endeavor to compel those States to refund what they have received more than they were entitled to; this is not expected—it is not asked; all that is asked of you is, that you render such justice to those injured States as the present situation of this transaction will admit of; this is all that is contemplated in the bill now before us.
Sir, as to the present situation of the State of New York with respect to this subject, she has not acknowledged the justice of this claim, as was stated by some gentlemen when this question was under consideration the other day; she has uniformly denied it. It is true she did comply with the act of Congress passed in February, 1799, and has expended and been credited on the books of your Treasury for $223,810 under that act; she did this, not from a conviction of the justice of the claim, but from motives which have always actuated her conduct, as well during the Revolutionary war as since, to do every thing in her power for the general welfare of the nation, whenever its exigencies required it, and also from an expectation that the other States called debtor States would do the same, and thereby get rid of an evil which she considers as having a tendency to alienate the good will and cordial affection so necessary to be cherished between these States—a cause, sir, which has and will, while it is suffered to exist, occasion perpetual irritation and disquiet, as well to the creditor as to the debtor States, and which may at some future period produce consequences more fatal.
I say, sir, these were her motives in agreeing to that measure; and did she not evince a magnanimous spirit by doing it? a willingness to suffer an additional injury herself, rather than not remove a cause which might put in jeopardy the peace and harmony of these United States? But, Mr. Chairman, as it can answer no useful purpose to have the remainder of the money expended in the manner directed by the act—and this I am warranted in stating to the committee, not only as my own opinion, but as the opinion of the gentleman who was employed under Government as an agent or commissioner to superintend the expenditure already made—as no other State has evinced a disposition to extinguish these balances by paying any part of them, or by complying with any of the terms heretofore offered by Congress; and as it must be admitted on all hands that Congress have no power to effect it by eviction, I ask gentlemen if it would be just or reasonable that the State of New York, who has been injured more in the settlement than any other State in the Union; who has already paid upwards of $220,000 towards these balances, and who is the only State that has, or in all probability ever will, pay a cent towards them—I say, I ask gentlemen of the committee whether it would be just that that State should now be driven to one of two alternatives; either to draw near a million of dollars from her citizens and expend it where it will answer no useful purpose to the State nor to the nation, or to withhold any further appropriations, and thereby incur the imputation of having violated her faith? I call upon gentlemen seriously to consider whether it would not be prodigiously unjust to hold that State in this predicament; whether it would not be adding injury to injustice to do it?
Mr. Chairman, I do flatter myself that the representatives of this nation, convened here to legislate on fair and equitable principles, will not suffer a new wound to be inflicted on that State, but that they will unite with one accord in passing the bill now before us, and thereby not only heal the one already made on that, as well as several of her sister States, but remove a rock which may endanger our Federal ship.
The bill was supported by Messrs. Randolph, Van Rensselaer, Hill, Van Ness, Gregg, Bayard, Smilie, Macon, S. Smith, Claiborne, and Holland—and opposed by Messrs. Elmer, Bacon, Eustis, Hastings, and Butler.
The question was then taken on the committee rising, and reporting the bill without amendment, and carried—yeas 47, nays 33.
A motion was then made that the bill be engrossed for a third reading on Tuesday, and carried—yeas 47, nays 35.
A motion was then made by Mr. Leib to recommit the report of the select committee on which the above bill was founded, in order to correct an erroneous statement in relation to Pennsylvania.
Mr. Griswold said, that he hoped the resolution which he had laid on the table for indemnifying for French spoliations would be first taken up. It was important, before a decision was made on the repeal of the internal taxes, that the extent of indemnities made by Government should be known. He therefore moved a postponement of the bill on internal taxes till to-morrow, that, in the mean time, his motion might be acted upon. He concluded by desiring the yeas and nays.
The motion of Mr. Griswold is as follows:
"Resolved, That it is proper to make provision by law towards indemnifying the merchants of the United States for losses sustained by them from French spoliations, the claims for which losses have been renounced by the final ratification of the Convention with France, as published by proclamation of the President of the United States."
Mr. Lowndes observed, that it was nearly two months since the committee was raised, to whom had been committed the petitions of merchants praying indemnities; notwithstanding this length of time, the committee had not yet met. He hoped this resolution would induce the committee to meet.
Mr. S. Smith said, that he had presented the first petition on the subject of French spoliations, and that it had been immediately referred to a select committee, who, though they had made progress in the business committed to them, had not considered it fair to decide until all the petitions expected on the subject had been received. One indeed had been presented only this morning. Mr. S. asked if this mode was not perfectly just and fair? For himself, on this subject, he was precluded from voting, as he was deeply interested in the decision of the House. He mentioned this circumstance that the reason might be understood why particular gentlemen from different parts of the Union did not vote on this question in its several stages.
Mr. Lowndes said he did not consider the right of deciding the principle delegated to the select committee. That must be decided in the House. It was the duty of the committee barely to make arrangements to protect the House from imposition on the score of facts. If it shall be determined by the Government, that it is improper to make compensation—though he thought such a decision scarcely possible—the select committee may be discharged. If, on the other hand, it is thought proper to compensate, the committee may go into the investigation of details.
Mr. Mitchill felt it an obligation, that the case of those whom he had the honor to represent, and that of the other merchants in the United States, should be taken up and receive from this House the most deliberate and serious consideration. He had before submitted to the House his ideas on the proper course to be pursued, which it was not necessary for him to repeat. He would, however, observe, that the resolution now made was so broad as entirely to defeat its object. The first reference of this business was to a select committee instructed to examine all the papers and documents in relation to it, with an instruction to report their opinion to the House; on receiving which the House might be able to come to a decision. On the other hand, the present proposition goes to commit the House on the whole extent of the subject without any examination whatever.
Mr. M. said, he would suggest a few reasons, which satisfied his mind that a decision should not be too rapidly pressed. The vessels taken by the French admitted of various classifications. One class consisted of those that were captured before the dissolution of our treaty with France; another class, of those which were captured after that event; another class, of those that were captured by picaroons without commissions; and another class, where captures were made on account of contraband goods. All these classes involved distinct considerations; and when the subject was presented to the House in a form so complicated, was it proper precipitately to decide a principle that might bind the Government to make indemnity for all cases whatever?
Mr. M. said he had no doubt but that such property of the citizens of the United States as came fairly under the character of spoliated property, would be considered as a fit subject of indemnity. He was one of those who thought that in such cases payment ought to be made. He considered the merchants as a very important class of citizens, and that their interests ought to be protected. This he thought the more necessary from the consideration of the bill on the table, which, when passed, will render the Government very dependent on mercantile credit.
Mr. M. was of opinion that the best way of accomplishing the object of the merchants was not to precipitate the subject. On the other hand, he was of opinion that the best chance of success would arise from an examination of the various classes of spoliations, from separating them from each other, thereby enabling the House to act understandingly upon them. The resolution of the gentleman from Connecticut was so vague as not to be susceptible of any distinct meaning. He hoped, therefore, the subject would be suffered to undergo a full and deliberate investigation in the select committee, which he, as a member of that committee, assured the House was progressing as fast as a sense of justice and a regard to our merchants require.
Mr. Dana.—The object of the present motion is to take up the resolution of my colleague, and to take order upon it—not to decide definitely upon it. This being the true question, I hope the gentleman from New York will not think it improper in me to say that many of his remarks do not apply to it. As the question is not whether we shall immediately decide the point, but only place it in a train for decision, it must be discussed either in a Committee of the Whole, or in a select committee; and we ask the House now to decide which, that it may be progressing towards a final decision.
The resolution states a general principle. If it is the fixed determination of the majority, without an inquiry, not to grant any relief whatever, there is an end of the business. But if you agree to grant any relief, the resolution ought to be adopted. The principle is then established of indemnifying; after which you may discriminate.
The principle on which the resolution is founded is not that Government has declined to insist upon the claims of its citizens against the French; but that it has undertaken to abandon their claims, so that no citizen can now come forward with his claim either against the French Government or any citizen of France. For this is the construction of the treaty as finally ratified by the Government. It is a complete surrender and renunciation of all demands. Among the first claims of our citizens are some of private right, which were it not for the treaty, could be recovered in the courts of France, but which the treaty bars. This constitutes a class of claims which the Government cannot refuse to indemnify. There are other descriptions of claims which might require discrimination; in some of which the degree of compensation should be varied, and others in which there should be no compensation whatever. I think, therefore, it is proper for the Government to say the business shall be attended to; at some future time an inquiry may be made into the nature of the various claims. This is all we ask.
Mr. Griswold said that the gentleman from New York had misapprehended the order of proceeding in that House. He supposes the present resolution so vaguely worded as to be improper to be passed. But, if taken up, that very gentleman may offer any amendment he pleases. I do, however, apprehend that it is so worded as to bring the subject fairly before the House. It is worded even with caution. Its sole object is to bring the principle of indemnity before the House, unfettered, that its decision might not be embarrassed by any details; supposing there would be an indisposition in the House to pledge the nation to an unlimited extent, the words used are, "towards indemnifying." Gentlemen, therefore, who are disposed to do any thing, can feel no objection to a resolution so qualified. Other parts of the resolution are worded with equal caution, so as to extend only to cases where losses are renounced by treaty. Are gentlemen unwilling to indemnify for such losses?
This is a principle proper for decision in Committee of the Whole. Why take it to a select committee? It involves no details; it requires the elucidation of no facts. We know the losses of our merchants, and we know the treaty has renounced them. The House is, therefore, prepared to say whether it will or will not indemnify. When the principle is decided, it may be sent to a select committee to settle the details. I hope that it will be taken up, and an early day fixed for consideration.
The gentleman says the committee are progressing. It may be so. Though I observe the gentleman from South Carolina says the committee has not yet met. How progressing? Without meeting? I do not understand this new mode, though I will not say that it is not a very correct mode. The gentleman further says the committee have not progressed because they wished to have first all the petitions before them; but the principle to be settled is as much involved in one petition as in all.
Mr. Gregg said he should not have risen but for the remarks of the gentleman from South Carolina, and after him those of the gentleman from Connecticut, who had stated that the committee had not met. Being a member of the committee he would inform those gentlemen that the committee had met; that they had perused a number of the papers, and had determined that it was improper to proceed until they had received documents that would show the extent of the claims.
As the business now stands, we find it referred to a select committee, instructed to examine the papers, and report their opinion thereupon. This report will form the grounds of decision for the House. Now the gentleman would wrest the business from the committee, and urge the House into a decision without any of the necessary information. The attempt was unprecedented. Mr. G. said he never knew a similar instance where the select committee had not been previously discharged.
Mr. Lowndes rose to explain. He said that when he informed the House that the committee had never been called together, he had been induced to say so, from never having been himself notified, though a member of the committee.
Mr. Bayard thought the motion ought to prevail for the reason assigned by the honorable gentleman from Connecticut. He has properly remarked that we are not now called on to decide the abstract question, but only to say what course of proceeding shall be pursued. The point ought now to be decided whether the business shall be sent to a select committee, or to a Committee of the Whole. The gentleman from Pennsylvania says it is altogether unprecedented to take a subject out of the hands of a select committee. But this will not be the effect of the resolution; which will only facilitate the business before the committee, and shed additional light on the path they ought to pursue. We do not wish to interfere with the operations of the committee, but to decide a question that will greatly facilitate their proceedings, and which question ought to be settled in a Committee of the Whole. It is peculiarly and strikingly proper to postpone the question of repealing the internal taxes until a decision shall have been made on these claims. Not that we are anxious to decide upon them immediately, but because we are solicitous not to prejudge all claims to indemnity by repealing the very taxes on which the indemnity must depend. Do gentlemen mean to decide at once thus precipitately against all indemnity whatever? If they are not in favor of so deciding, surely they will not be for immediately deciding on the internal taxes.
Let the gentleman from New York classify the claims as he pleases, can he tell the extent of the demands? May they not amount to five million or ten million of dollars? And if to either sum, can we with propriety dispense with the internal taxes? It appears from the report of the Secretary of the Treasury that the whole of the revenue for the year 1803 and 1804 will be wanted. If, then, these claims shall be allowed, and shall produce an increase of the public debt, the fund derived from the internal revenue will be required.
It is cruel to decide at once against the claims of our merchants. If it is predetermined not to give them relief, at least allow them the consolation of a hearing. Whoever votes for now taking up the question of the repeal of the internal taxes, votes, not only against indemnifying, but also against hearing the merchants; because he votes away all means of indemnification. It is hard, peculiarly hard, that at the moment when you are about to throw the whole burdens of the Government upon the merchants, you should deny them a hearing, an impartial hearing, of their claims. Suppose there should be a combination of these men, seeing the Government act towards them with such flagrant injustice, to refuse all importations. I ask, if you do not, by such treatment, put the Government entirely into their hands?
If gentlemen will agree to postpone the question of internal taxes, we will agree to postpone this question, if they are not prepared to decide upon it. The subject of the internal taxes is the least pressing of all the subjects before the House. The bill, indeed, ought not to pass until we know the appropriations that are necessary to be made for the present year. Have gentlemen shown, can they show, that with propriety these taxes can be dispensed with from any retrenchments that can be made in our expenditures? I do not know any official document on this point, except that of the Secretary of War, who, in his very correct report, says there will be a saving in his department of a little more or less than $500,000; which report I confess I do not understand. The Committee of Ways and Means say there will be a retrenchment in the War Department of a sum not exceeding $400,000; which mode of expression I do not precisely comprehend. Surely we ought to know with precision the sums that will be required for the objects of the Government before we abandon our resources.
Mr. Eustis thought the object of indemnity to our merchants very important both in its nature and its consequences. And, first, as to its amount, it was known to be great. The consequence of these applications will be a hearing, and procedure thereon. And the amount of the claims, as well as the nature of them, ought to have great influence on the deliberations of the House. And yet we talk of deciding the abstract question, when the very facts on which we are to decide are not before us. For it will be perceived by the public prints that the claims of the merchants of the State of Massachusetts are not yet brought forward. The necessary evidence is not before the House. I appeal to the gentlemen to know how we are to act, understandingly, if the subject be taken up now. What is the abstract question? Will gentlemen say they will pay all demands before they know any thing of their nature or amount?
The claims of our merchants are very serious, and merit great consideration. But the revenue, which gentlemen are so anxious to retain, to them will be but as the light dust in the balance. I presume that the losses of the merchants of Massachusetts alone are not less than five to ten millions of dollars. But to act understandingly upon them we must have evidence as well of their amount as their nature, both of which we at present want.
Mr. Rutledge.—I am sorry the resolution of my honorable friend from Connecticut is not acceptable to the gentleman from New York. It is not the least indelicate to that committee. On the contrary, were I a member of that committee, I should feel infinitely gratified by it. I would ask solicitously, whether it were possible that Congress would agree to this principle before the details were gone into. We are now for giving that information to the committee.
The honorable gentleman says this resolution conveys no light. But I will say, that, if adopted, it will confer not only light, but comfort to our merchants. It will foster their hopes, and animate them to meet the difficulties under which they are staggering.
The gentleman from Massachusetts says there is no evidence of fact. What fact? Surely he will not say there is no evidence of the French having condemned our vessels, and of their having committed vast spoliation. If this were so, how happens it that an American embassy had demanded compensation; and that, on the ulterior negotiations of the Government, the Government had said we will abandon it, that we may release ourselves from guaranteeing to France her colonial possessions. Had this not been so, France might have called upon us to guarantee her West India possessions, and to supply her with men and money. From this situation we have been kept by those negotiations which terminated in an abandonment of the just Claims of your merchants on the French Government or her citizens. And this constitutes your good bargains.
If these are facts, we possess sufficient evidence not only to justify, but to compel our paying the merchants, if under the influence of common honesty. The amount is perfectly immaterial. Whatever it is we must pay it. It is true that of the millions claimed, Government may not in law or equity be compelled to pay more than a small part. But if you establish the principle that there shall be an indemnity made, you enable your committee to devise the mode of collecting evidences of and settling the validity of the claims.
But the gentleman from Massachusetts says these taxes, right or wrong, must be repealed. For, he says, the public expectation has already decided the question; and that, indeed, the public officers could not now collect them. But I hope, for the honor of the Government, and of the American people, this opinion is not correct.
Mr. Mitchill begged to be indulged in making a few observations on what had fallen from the gentleman from South Carolina. I do not know that these observations will satisfy his mind, but they will at least serve to justify my own character as a Representative of a portion of the Union respectable for its mercantile opulence. I believe the subject of indemnities, in the contemplation of gentlemen, has swelled much beyond its real magnitude. I believe that a large portion of losses were so covered by insurance that Government will not be obliged to pay for them. I feel as sincerely for the merchants as any gentleman; yet I do not wish to swell the subject to an improper magnitude. Suppose, as the gentlemen wish, we say we will indemnify, does that pay the claims?
Besides, it is not so evident, as some gentlemen assert, that our merchants have been deprived of valuable rights by the mode in which the French Convention has been ratified. Let gentlemen recollect the mass of depredations committed by Great Britain, and the engagements, under treaty, of the British Government to make reparation for them. Yet, notwithstanding this engagement, reparation has been to this day evaded, under the pretext that the claims under one article depend on the construction given to a preceding article. Now, suppose in the French Treaty there were the same provisions as in the British Treaty, would this have produced payment? No. The operations under the treaty might have gone on as long as under the British Treaty, with the like effect, and without any substantial provision being made. I state these circumstances barely to show that the renunciation in the French Treaty is not so grievous as some gentlemen imagine.
It is manifest that an inattention to similar claims has been considered as less a departure from right among nations than among individuals. And, judging of the future by the past, my opinion is that a retention of the article stricken out of the French Convention, would not have benefited the claims of our merchants, or afforded them any adequate eventual compensation. In France, as on the other side of the Channel, there would have been claim raised against claim, pretext against pretext, and the boards for adjusting the several claims might have been, in this case, as in the other, dissolved.
It is said by the gentleman from Delaware, that it is the object of gentlemen on his side of the House to prevent a repeal of the internal taxes. Though I admire the gentleman's candor, I believe it is needful to repeal these laws. I believe, too, the people wish them repealed. But I further believe, that if future events shall show the necessity of restoring these taxes, the good sense of the people will restore them; and if the indemnities agreed to be made shall require them, I believe they will be restored. The work of examining these claims will be the work of years. What is the consequence? Will the present repeal of the internal taxes interfere with the doing substantial justice to our merchants? Suppose these taxes are removed, are not the products of the country increasing? and are not our resources increasing with our population? The truth is, whenever your Treasury wants a fresh supply of resources, the people will submit to what their Representatives desire. Are we to legislate for succeeding ages? No. We are to suffer our successors to act for themselves; and I have no doubt either of their ability or their inclination to do justice.
Mr. Dana.—If I understood the honorable member from New York, he admitted the propriety of making some indemnity; and if so, I could not understand why he dwelt so elaborately upon the minutiæ of detail, to show why we ought not to indemnify. Nor can I yet understand him, unless his object be to let the subject sleep, and to say that the longer it is delayed, the less chance of reparation.
The gentleman says, property insured cannot be recovered. But is that gentleman, coming as he does from the first commercial city in the Union, yet to learn that, in the case of loss, the insurer stands precisely in the place of the insured? Is he so ignorant of this fact as not to know that the underwriter, in such circumstances, becomes entitled to the same indemnity with him who is underwritten?
With regard to the analogy attempted between the British Treaty and the French Convention, it is totally incorrect. For, in the British Treaty, we had insisted upon the claims of our merchants to reparation by Britain, or her subjects; whereas, in the French Convention, we had renounced all claim. Nor were the remarks of the honorable member more fortunate respecting the operations under the British Treaty; for he must know that our merchants have, in many cases, received compensation under it.
One concession has been made which I did not expect would be avowed so early, either by the gentleman from Massachusetts or the gentleman from New York; a confession that is founded on the principle that the House, before examining the important details which ought to regulate their decision, are so placed by the head of the Executive ministry, that certain taxes, recommended to be abrogated, must be repealed. You must repeal them. The public clamor is excited, and you must obey it. I did not suppose it would so soon have been avowed that we are under the absolute rule of Executive influence, and that, to obey it, we are compelled to perjure our understandings.
Mr. Bayard.—The honorable gentleman from Massachusetts has thanked me for the candor of my avowal that I am opposed to the repeal of these taxes. But I do not wish to be thanked for more than I really said. It is true, that I do not think this the proper time to repeal all of those taxes, because I do not know that Government may not want them.
The gentleman from Massachusetts has broached a new species of ethics. He says, if the amount of claims shall be small, we may pay, but if large we cannot. But I will tell that gentleman I have never acknowledged such a principle of morality. I believe if the merchants have a just demand for one dollar, we must pay it; and if they have a just demand for one hundred millions, we must pay that too. Nor can I too forcibly express my astonishment at an opposite principle avowed by this House.
The gentleman says you want evidence, and therefore ought not to act. But can you examine each distinct case? If the subject goes to a select committee, and they shall be allowed years to decide, still they will have to establish some principle; for instance, that a certain description of vessels was captured unjustly by the French; that the injured merchants had a moral claim on the French Government for reparation; that the United States had bartered away their rights, and that Government, in consequence, is bound to indemnify. If the House decide that the Government is bound to relieve in one case, are they not bound to afford relief in all similar cases? Will you not, then, be obliged to make a general provision that all claims, so circumstanced, shall be allowed? Here is a great mass of claims; some made now, and some not likely to be made for years. What more, then, can you do, than decide the principle which shall be applied to them?
My opinion as to indemnity is, that whoever had a valid claim against the French Government, which the United States extinguished, has a demand against the United States, which she must satisfy. Put the case to its consequence: Will gentlemen tell me whether, according to any principle of morality, where you have taken from your citizens all chance of recovery, you are not bound to indemnify for that of which you have deprived them? Where the French Government was not bound to pay before the convention, you are not now bound to pay. So, in the case of war, you are not bound. But where the claim on the French Government was perfect, and you destroyed that claim, your obligation to pay cannot be evaded. I wish to know if the establishment of this principle requires facts?
With respect to the circumstances of particular cases, this House cannot act. On those numerous grades of credibility that will be attached to the various claims that shall be made, you cannot decide. To effect this you must establish some competent tribunal. You can establish the principle; but the details could not be settled by Congress, even if their attention were exclusively directed to that subject, in three years. Having decided the principle, it will be proper to leave the application of it to your courts of law.
Mr. Bacon hoped that a great deal of time would not be spent in exploring the secret motives of individual members. He supposed they should all stand or fall on their own consciences. He hoped, therefore, they should have the question.
Mr. S. Smith.—I am against the proposition of the gentleman from Connecticut, because to act now upon it will be in direct opposition to the uniform order of the House. If our attention is thus to be withdrawn from every important object before us, I do not know how we are possibly to progress with the public business. I know of no case, where a particular subject has been referred to a select committee, and it has afterward been taken up in the House, while it remained with the committee. I should have understood the motion, if it had been to discharge the select committee, and to refer the subject to a Committee of the Whole.
As gentlemen, however, have taken so wide a range in the field of debate, I hope their course will produce a saving of time, and that we shall not have their speeches over again on repealing the internal taxes.
It is not my purpose, at this time, to enter into a discussion of the claims of our merchants, because I think this is not the proper occasion. But I will tell gentlemen, that if they were disposed to destroy those claims, they could not have pursued a plan more effectually calculated to do it. Had such been my intention, I would have offered a resolution so broad and vague as to alarm the whole community as to the amount of indemnity. I would have endeavored to throw the censure attached to their losses on the present Administration. I would have opposed their claims to the wish of the nation to repeal the internal taxes. All these steps I would have taken to frustrate any indemnity; and they are just the steps taken by gentlemen who profess so strong a regard for the merchants. Let me tell those gentlemen until they shall pursue a far different plan, we must doubt whether they are in earnest to pay the merchants for their losses.
If the public business is to be thus perpetually procrastinated, I hope the gentlemen with whom I act will be firm enough, after rejecting this motion, to pursue the other business even to a late hour.
The yeas and nays were then taken on Mr. Griswold's motion, to postpone taking up the bill on internal taxes till to-morrow, in order to take up his resolution on French spoliations; and decided in the negative—yeas 33, nays 54.
The bill for extinguishing State balances was read a third time, when Mr. Davis moved its postponement to the first Monday in November.
This motion was supported by Messrs. Davis, Bacon, Elmer, and Goddard, who declared themselves adverse to the passage of the bill; and opposed by Messrs. Bayard, T. Morris, Randolph, and Nicholas, who declared themselves in favor of the bill.
Mr. Griswold delivered his sentiments against the postponement, declaring, however, his determination to vote against the passage of the bill.
The question of postponement was taken by yeas and nays, and carried—yeas 48, nays 42.
A new member, to wit, Walter Bowie, from the State of Maryland, returned to serve in this House as a member for the said State, in the room of Richard Sprigg, who has resigned his seat, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat in the House.
An engrossed bill, making a partial appropriation for the support of Government, during the year 1802, was read the third time and passed.
Previous to its passage, conversation took place respecting an alleged looseness of appropriation. This objection was made by Mr. Griswold, and supported by Mr. Dana, who were of opinion that the sum in the bill should be more specifically appropriated.
The objection was repelled by Messrs. Milledge, Giles, Elmendorph, Randolph, and Alston, who contended that the objection did not apply, and that no inconvenience could arise from a partial appropriation made in the bill and contemplated for a definitive object.
A motion made to recommit the bill was lost; when the bill passed—yeas 45.
On a motion made and seconded that the House do come to the following resolution: