Mr. Christie moved the reference of the report to a Committee of the Whole.

Mr. Griswold opposed the reference.

The House divided—for the reference 43, against it, 46.

Mr. Jackson made several remarks, and concluded by calling for the yeas and nays, which were ordered.

Mr. Nicholas said, in a Government like ours, the theory of which is republican, and the practice of which he hoped would always continue to be republican, he considered the representatives of the people responsible to the people, by whom they were created. It was necessary, to give efficacy to this responsibility, that the people, who were to judge, should possess the purest information, as to not only the acts, but the motives of the public agents. It was of little consequence to them to know what laws are enacted, compared with a knowledge of projects that were attempted or prevented, and the grounds on which they were supported or opposed. Nor could the merits of the acts themselves be understood, unless the reasons for them were stated. It was, therefore, of the highest consequence that the reasons for our conduct should be clearly understood, that our measures may be comprehended, and our motives also known, that our constituents may judge whether we have faithfully discharged our duty.

Under this view of the subject, he thought it extremely indelicate to resist the admission within the bar of those persons who thought themselves qualified to take the debates and proceedings of the House. But what rendered the attempt still more improper, was, its being an innovation on the practice of the House. For, since he had been a member of the Legislature, individuals of this description had been placed by the House at their ease, in a situation convenient for hearing what passed. Why is this practice, hitherto unopposed, now to be broken in upon? For such an innovation and departure from the established practice of the House, there ought to be the strongest reasons; particularly when the attempted innovation respected, and was made by, those whose conduct was to be scrutinized.

It was not without deliberation that the practice of the House had been instituted and adhered to. Some gentlemen had, some time since, contemplated the employment of a particular individual, whose services were to be paid for by the House. But the idea was abandoned, from the supposed sanction given by such an act to his statements; whereby the House might be made responsible for his accuracy and talents.

The difficulty attending the business he acknowledged to be great. But, for the reasons he had assigned, he thought the House had acted right in forbearing to interfere, further than by merely assigning a convenient place to the stenographers. It was deemed safest to confide the business to persons not known officially to the House, whose own individual interest would constitute the best pledge for their fidelity. Though no precise resolve had been passed to this effect, it was well understood that this was the course the House meant to pursue, after having given the subject a deliberate and solemn consideration.

Shall we now, said Mr. N., after this mature consideration, on the mere suggestion of personal inconvenience, on a subject of such importance as to invite a gentleman from a considerable distance, [referring to some old plan,] shall we, after the sanction of a uniform practice, fortified by the long period for which it has been observed, on the suggestion of a trifling inconvenience, which, he believed, on examination, would not be found to exist at all, adopt the innovation proposed by the report of the committee? For his part, he thought they were all deeply interested in having the debates well taken, as it was not in their power altogether to prohibit their being taken.

He had heard but two objections made to the old plan. The first was, that by passing a resolve admitting stenographers within the bar, the House gave a sanction to the reports published by them. The second was, that as the Speaker had heretofore had the management of the business, it would be wrong to take it out of his hands.

As to the first objection, he thought it altogether incorrect. The resolution, submitted by the gentleman from North Carolina, (Mr. Hill,) which he wished the House to adopt, does not propose the selection of any particular person. It admits, generally, those individuals who wish to take the debates. Can this admission make us responsible for the conduct of men we do not know, and over whom we have no control? Have we heretofore been considered as responsible? And wherein consists the difference between our past situation and the situation we shall be in, if the motion of the gentleman from North Carolina be adopted? We shall then only have done that which before had been done by the Speaker. Governed by a sense of duty, the Speaker had refused admission within the bar. It became, therefore, necessary, in order to admit, for the House to pass a resolution. But it did not follow that the least responsibility would arise from such an act.

Indeed, by admitting the stenographers within the bar, the responsibility of the House would be diminished; for, if the House admitted them, no one could then say that it had done any thing that interfered with a faithful report of the debates; whereas, by excluding the stenographers, the unavoidable inaccuracies committed, might be charged to the House.

The second objection made to the resolution of the gentleman from North Carolina, was that, as the Speaker had heretofore had the management of the business, it would be wrong to take it out of his hands.

Mr. N. in reply to this objection, observed, that the power, heretofore exercised by the Speaker on this subject, had not been expressly delegated to him by the House. It had often been thought of, but no decision had heretofore been made. As the object asked related to the convenience of the members, he thought they were the best judges of the propriety of granting it. The inconvenience alleged to exist was entirely a matter of opinion. He thought it either had no existence or a very limited one. As he had remarked before, the subject was extremely delicate. He would not consent to furnish room for being charged with a wish to suppress the means of making an inquiry into his conduct. He believed that the innovation contended for, would be so viewed; so far, therefore, from considering it as innocent, he viewed it as wrong in itself, and likely to be mischievous in its effects.

Mr. Otis was one of those who was not disposed to make a strong stand against the resolution offered by the gentleman from North Carolina. He did not view the point in so interesting a light as did the gentleman who had preceded him. It appeared to him in the shape of a question of convenience; and as to his own situation, it could not be affected by any permission given to stenographers to come within the bar. Many of the arguments he had heard, implied that the situation at present occupied by the stenographers was exclusive of all others; whereas if that were inconvenient they might take any other, so that they did not come within the bar.

It is true that the stenographers have hitherto been admitted within the bar. They were admitted because there was room. But, in our present chamber, the room was less; nor could they occupy a part of that little, without materially interfering with the convenience of the members.

In his opinion, the proper question for the House to consider was, whether an admission should take place independent of the Speaker, or whether he should decide its propriety. It did not follow, if the Speaker retained the management, that the exclusion would apply to all occasions. It was true, that the places desired by the stenographers were generally assigned to the high Executive officers of the Government, and the foreign Ministers. But if, in consistence with their accommodation, the indulgence could be granted, during any important debate, he had no doubt of the Speaker's readiness to admit them, and they might thus obtain a temporary place within the bar.

Mr. O. thought the remarks of the gentleman from Virginia covered too much ground. They ascribed to the friends of the report an attempt to preclude the people from obtaining all information of what passed in the House. No such design existed. For his part, he wished the people to know every thing that occurred within these walls. There was no doubt of the debates, as heretofore given, being an inadequate organ of the ideas of the members; they had been taken for nearly twelve years, and sometimes they had been accurate, and at other times very inaccurate; and so complete had the distortion of sentiments often been, that had it not been for the name that was attached to a particular speech, the member, to whom it was ascribed, would not have known it to be his. Mr. O. would, notwithstanding, not deny the ability of a person who read the debates, to form a tolerable idea of the arguments used on a particular subject.

The charge of innovation, Mr. O. thought unjust. He proposed to leave the business as it had heretofore been left, free from any resolve of the House, to the control of the Speaker. By this conduct, no sanction would be given to the performances of any reporter; but, on the other hand, if the House passed a resolve, divesting the Speaker of his previous power, they would render themselves responsible, and would virtually give a sanction.

If it were resolved that the House should interfere, he would much rather select and pay an individual competent to the business, and appeal, for the faithful discharge of his trust, to his candor and impartiality.

If the House passed the resolution admitting the stenographers within the bar, Mr. O. asked whether they would not in fact be officers of the House. The only difference between them and the other officers would be that one would be paid and the others would not.

Mr. O. said that, in his opinion, the most inconvenient position in the House had been taken by the stenographers. It was near the Clerk's office, between which and the bar there was a perpetual passage of the members. If an experiment were made of a position on the other side, or in the upper gallery, he was persuaded it would be found very convenient. Are not, said Mr. O., the galleries constructed for the express purpose of hearing? Are they not intended for the good people of the United States? And if they can hear in them, cannot the stenographers also?

Mr. O. concluded by stating the extreme inconvenience that would arise from admitting the stenographers; the interference it would produce with the assignation of seats to the Secretaries of our Government and the foreign Ministers; and with declaring his opinion that it was most expedient to adopt the report of the committee.

Mr. Nicholson said, that if he understood the objections made by the gentleman from Massachusetts to granting an admission of the stenographers within the bar, they might be classed under three heads: 1. It will be against precedent; 2. It would prevent the members from having elbow room; 3. There is a possibility that the Speaker may indulge the stenographers.

As to the first objection, he would ask whether the House had not a right to exercise any power themselves that was exercised by the Speaker. Hitherto the Speaker has exercised the power, and admitted the stenographers within the bar; he now refuses to do it, and we are called upon to perform what he refuses. If we think it proper to admit them, we have a right to do it. The power heretofore exercised by the Speaker was derived from us, according to the well-known maxim, Qui facit per alium, facit per se.

But we are told that the admission would interfere with the accommodation of the four Secretaries and the foreign Ministers. Suppose it should, said Mr. N.; I ask whether the convenience and the interest of the people of the United States are to be prostrated by our complaisance to the Secretaries and foreign agents? It is our duty to enable the people to obtain the best information of what is doing here, that we can supply. Shall we abandon our duty? Shall we sacrifice the interests of our constituents to a sense of politeness to these gentlemen? It would be much better to submit to the inconvenience experienced by the Secretaries and the foreign Ministers, if there is not room for them within the bar, than to conceal from the people the knowledge they have a right to possess. Let, then, the foreign Ministers, if there be such a competition, retire into the galleries.

He considered the subject as of high importance both to the country and the members themselves. They all ought to desire their conduct to be rigidly inspected.

Gentlemen say that the debates have been heretofore imperfectly taken. Will they remedy the evil by excluding the stenographers from places within the bar? If, heretofore, notwithstanding the favorableness of their position, when stillness and silence reigned, they have been unable to take the debates with precision, can it be expected that, driven to a distance from most of the members, surrounded by a crowd in perpetual motion, they will be able more successfully to accomplish their object? Sir, said Mr. N., the expectation is absurd. It cannot be done. I have placed myself without the bar, and I declare it impossible to hear correctly. If, then, you are determined to exclude them from their usual places, you had infinitely better turn them out of the House altogether.

As to the convenience of the galleries for hearing, Mr. N. was not able, from a trial made by himself, to decide upon it. But he had heard but one uniform opinion, which was, that owing to the constant passage of persons, and the frequent crowd it would contain, it was impossible to hear there with any distinctness. With respect to the remarks made by the gentleman from Massachusetts on this point, he thought them altogether inapposite. The gallery was not constructed by us, and if it were a bad place for hearing, it arose not from any fault to be ascribed to us. All that we did was to open our doors to all citizens who conducted themselves with decorum.

The personal inconvenience to members alleged, did not, in the opinion of Mr. N., exist. He thought there was ample room. The chamber they occupied was similar to that in Philadelphia, and the positions desired by the stenographers were relatively the same as those in Philadelphia. By advancing the Clerk's table three feet, every difficulty would be removed.

Mr. Rutledge said, that the members who had preceded him had talked much about the necessity of giving the people correct information of the transactions of that House. He believed there was not a single member who did not wish to impart to the people all the knowledge they could receive, and who did not highly prize the means of information furnished by the proceedings of that House. On this point there was no division. No one was desirous of excluding the stenographers, or prohibiting the publication of debates. The only question really before the House was, whether they should persevere in the old plan; whether they should confide in the integrity and the talents of the Speaker, who had hitherto merited their confidence, or whether, divesting him of his power, they should exercise a right themselves hitherto attached to his office.

Such a mode of procedure as had been pursued on this occasion was not conformable to that heretofore practised. An application somewhat similar had been, some time since, made to the Speaker. The Speaker decided, and the House, without debate, acquiesced in his decision. A stenographer had grossly misrepresented a member, and when required to correct his false statement, had insolently refused to do it, and added to the previous injury of misstatement insult of the most contumelious kind. The Speaker dismissed him from his place for this barefaced misconduct. Some of his friends made an appeal to the House. The House acted wisely, and, with becoming dignity, refused to interpose.

Now, said Mr. R., if any other stenographer, like the one I have alluded to, shall make it his systematic practice to misrepresent, and he continue as heretofore to hold his place at the tenure of the Speaker's permission, he may be dismissed by the Speaker without troubling the House. But should the motion made by the gentleman from North Carolina prevail, we shall be perpetually appealed to, and occupied in debate. For these reasons he trusted the report would be agreed to.

Mr. Hill said he considered the subject as simply involving an address to the sentiments of the members on the ground of personal convenience, and that on that ground he was ready to sacrifice any little inconvenience to the accommodation of the stenographers; stating at the same time his entire reliance upon the integrity and talents of the Speaker.

Mr. Griswold said, this is nothing less than an appeal from the Chair. To the Speaker has heretofore been committed the regulation of the admission of all persons whatever within the bar. This is the only correct mode in which such an object can be accomplished. The Speaker must exercise the discretion hitherto vested in him, otherwise the order of the House cannot be preserved. The object now is to take this power from the Speaker, and to open the area of the House to the stenographers, without the Speaker's approbation. It is said that only two persons at present apply. But if the door be once opened to admission in this way, there may be no end to intrusion. The Speaker being divested of power to act, and the necessity of acting being evident, the House will be perpetually troubled with appeals.

In his opinion, the power confided to the Speaker had been exercised in this case with great propriety. It must be apparent to every body that the area was too small to justify the admission of the stenographers. He believed it to be an idle pretence that the stenographers could not hear. He believed it to be a mere matter of pride, which would be gratified by an appeal from the Chair, and a reversal of the decision of the Speaker by the House.

Mr. Thatcher, persuaded that all the information derived from the debates of this House was of little comparative importance when viewed in relation to the general mass of information possessed by the people, cared but little for the event of the resolution before the House. Upon this ground he felt no anxiety whatever. As a matter of order, it might perhaps be of some importance. As to the convenience of position, he doubted whether a more correct account of the debates could not be given from a situation without the bar than within it. His reasons were these: It was well known that for four or five sessions after the organization of the Federal Government stenographers never came within the bar, and their positions during that period were as remote from the members as at present. Yet if any man would appeal to the debates then taken, he would find them as correctly taken as they have been at any time since. It is true, there were complaints of inaccuracy, but the debate takers never assigned, as a justification of their errors, the inconvenience of their situations; on the contrary, they declared that they did as well as they could, and contended that their reports were as correct as the nature of the case permitted.

When the seat of Government was transferred to Philadelphia, and the stenographers occupied places within the bar, complaints increased, the debates were taken more incorrectly, and two or three of the stenographers were actually turned out of the area within the bar; one of whom, he believed, was sent into the upper gallery.

The incorrectness of the published debates did not arise so much from an inability to hear as from an inability to take down a rapid speech.

Mr. T. said he believed the debates as taken down by Mr. Lloyd, were as accurately taken as any taken before or since. The conclusion he drew from these facts was, that if the stenographers were admitted by the House within the bar, the public would gain nothing by it. He had, however, no objection to their admission, if the Speaker approved it. They might, as far as he cared, take any place in the House; even seats alongside of the Speaker.

Mr. Davis had expected to hear substantial reasons in support of the report of the committee. None such had been offered. It was said that the stenographers could hear very well from their present positions. He denied it. The reporter could not possibly hear. Though himself nearer the gentleman, he had not heard a word that fell from the gentleman from North Carolina.

He trusted the House would admit the stenographers within the bar. If not admitted, the conversation and passage of the members around them will at once prevent the debates from being well taken, and be a perpetual excuse for their errors. But if admitted, they will have no such apology, and they will be within the power of the House.

The great mass of our citizens are too remote to attend your debates. They rely on those who report them. Not more than forty or fifty persons transiently appear in the galleries, who are not equal to diffusing a knowledge of your proceedings. Exclude the stenographers, and you may as well shut your doors. It may be said that you print your journals; but who reads them? They are scarcely read by the members themselves. On great national questions the people ought to know, not only what you do, but also the principles that guide you.

The gentleman from South Carolina was willing to place the stenographers under the coercion of the Speaker, but was unwilling to place them under the coercion of the House. For his part, he thought differently. He did not wish to see them at the mercy of the Speaker.

Several allusions had been made to the treatment of a reporter at Philadelphia, who had been driven from the House by the Speaker. He recollected the affair, and, in his opinion, the Speaker had in this case been actuated more by personal enmity, than by any other motive.

Mr. H. Lee next rose. He said he put it upon the candor of his colleague from Virginia to declare whether, in his opinion, any gentleman in that House wished to suppress his sentiments, or was disposed to shrink from an avowal of them. If an individual were to judge from the debate of to-day he would infer that it was the desire of some members on that floor to conceal their sentiments from the people. No such thing was the case. We are as anxious as those who differ with us that the people should know what we think, say, and do.

The only question was, whether the Speaker shall exercise a certain power which he can conveniently, and which he has hitherto honorably exercised, or whether we shall assume it with all its inconveniences. He hoped we should not. He feared no inaccuracy so long as the debates published received no sanction from the House.

Have you, said Mr. L., no greater objects to engage your attention than whether this man or that man shall go out of your bar, or remain within it? He thought the House might be better employed.

Mr. Macon understood the subject before the House very much as his colleague did. The question was simply whether we will take upon ourselves inconveniences alleged to exist, or keep the stenographers without the bar. He was convinced that the situations occupied by the stenographers were badly calculated for hearing, as even within the bar the members could scarcely hear each other.

One reason had great weight with him. It was, that if the House made a rule in relation to the admission of the stenographers, it would be placing law in the room of discretion. He preferred a certain rule to a vague discretion.

The danger apprehended from a crowd of stenographers was farcical. Since he had been in Congress he had never seen more than three or four. And if the number admitted should prove inconvenient, it would be time enough, when the inconvenience was experienced, to remedy it.

Mr. S. Smith said the question was entirely one of inconvenience. He would not ascribe to any member a desire to suppress his sentiments. The speeches never went forth as delivered. Yet it was desirable to assign to the stenographers the most convenient places. He had heard gentlemen on both sides of the chair declare they would experience no inconvenience from the admission of the stenographers. For himself, from his situation, he could experience none. He believed, indeed, that the members could be heard from any part of the House, and nearly as well in one place as in another. But as other gentlemen hold a different opinion, and the stenographers had hitherto been admitted within the bar, he had not the least objection, and would vote for their admission.

In this stage of the debate, the Speaker arose, not, he said, to inquire into the consequences of the House acting in the business, but again to repeat the line of conduct he had pursued, and the motives which had influenced his conduct; he did this for the information of members not in the House at the time he had before addressed the House. The Speaker then repeated what he had before stated, viz: that on being appealed to by Mr. Stewart, he had declared to him his decision before any other application had been made; that he had spoken to many members, all of whom, without a single exception, had approved his ideas, and concluded with again declaring, as he had before declared, that the stenographers could not be admitted within the bar without violating the order of the House and the convenience of the members. It was, he said, for the House to decide—to them only was he responsible.

Mr. Nicholas understood it to be the object of those who supported the admission of the stenographers within the bar to place them upon the same footing they had heretofore held. This was his object. All the remarks, therefore, made respecting their independence of the Chair, were inapplicable. They would still be subject to his control, except as to the single point of situation. In short, the business would be restored to its old form.

His colleague had made an appeal to his candor. He wished to know whether he (Mr. N.) thought that he or any other gentleman in that House wished to suppress his sentiments, or was disposed to shrink from an avowal of them? He would answer the appeal made by his colleague, and would tell him that he did not feel himself at liberty to form conjectures respecting the opinions of others, but decided from facts. If he heard gentlemen make use of arguments so weak as those he had heard that day in defence of their sentiments, he would say that their feelings differed essentially from his. He would say that, judging them by their arguments, they do not wish publicity to be given to the debates of this House.

What do the gentlemen tell us? Does it not amount to this: that their complaisance for the Speaker suffers him to judge for them in a case where they are the best judges; and would not this complaisance go to this length, that if the Speaker should judge wrong, they will not interfere to correct his error?

We are told by a gentleman just up, that the application made proceeds from pride, and that it can proceed from nothing else. But the gentleman has not assigned his reasons for this extraordinary charge.

It is contended that any place without the bar will be convenient for the stenographers. Let the place be pointed out. Let the gentlemen who urge this show us a place without the bar inaccessible to the whispers of the members and the pressure of a crowd. Do they imagine that any particular place can be assigned to which they can ensure a profound silence, and from which every person can be withheld? Do they not know, have they not experienced, that when business presses, when subjects of importance are discussed, a crowd is produced, noise ensues, and interposing obstacles render it impossible either to hear or see the members? In such cases, by far the most interesting that can occur, a recess within the bar can be their only protection.

The gentleman from Massachusetts had put the business upon a very extraordinary footing—a footing that he did not expect from him. He represented that it would be safe to trust the reporters to the Speaker's indulgence. For his part, he did not think it would be safe in such hands. Shall the Speaker have the discretion of saying what debates shall be taken and what shall not? Shall he, and he only, have the public ear? Could the Speaker desire this? Surely he could not. He ought rather to desire the House to decide generally than thus impose upon him such an invidious task.

Mr. N. said, he considered those who report the debates as appearing in this House on behalf of the people of the United States, to whom they communicated what passed here. The people were entitled to this information; and if, as observed by the gentleman from Massachusetts, either foreign Ministers or Secretaries, or any other gentleman in long robes, interfered with such an object, they ought to give way. He knew not wherein consisted the propriety of assigning them particular seats. What right had they to exclusive seats? He knew no connection that subsisted between them and this House. Be the right as it may, he was not for sacrificing a solid benefit to mere complaisance.

But a gentleman has told us that one stenographer, for his misrepresentation and insolence, had been discharged by the Speaker. In the course of debate, Mr. N. said, he had studiously avoided any allusion to this circumstance. Nor would he now say any thing about it, as he thought it altogether foreign from the present question.

The respect which gentlemen expressed for the Speaker appeared to him to lead them from the object they professed to have in view. For, at present, the stenographers are not under the control of the Speaker. But admit them within the bar, and if they are guilty of misconduct, if they infringe any of the rules of the House, the Speaker has them within his power.

Some gentlemen apprehend the admission of a crowd of stenographers. The thing is morally impossible. When Congress met in a large populous city, where several daily papers were printed, we saw but two reporters. Here, removed from the busy world, where the demand for that description of labor which arose from publishing the debates was not nearly so great, and, of consequence, the profit less, it could not be expected that there could be more.

Mr. N. concluded by declaring that, in his opinion, it was the duty of the House to decide in this case. The Speaker had changed the established practice of the House. It became, therefore, the House to inquire whether he had done what he ought to have done; which, if he had omitted to do, it devolved on them to see effected.

Mr. Waln spoke in favor of the adoption of the report.

The question was then taken by yeas and nays, on agreeing to the report of the select committee, and carried by the casting vote of the Speaker. There being yeas 45, nays 45, as follows:

Wednesday, December 10.

Another member, to wit, Matthew Lyon, from Vermont, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Mausoleum to Washington.

The House went into a Committee of the Whole on the bill for erecting a Mausoleum to the memory of George Washington.

Mr. Alston was in hopes, when he first made the motion now under consideration, that a question would have been taken upon the amendment without debate; but, as his wish upon that subject had not been complied with, he held it to be his duty to give to the House the reasons which actuated him.

He said that he by no means wished to detract any thing from the merit of that illustrious character whose memory we were now about to perpetuate; that it was his wish that his character might be handed to the latest posterity unimpaired, and that he really thought the amendment equally calculated to effect that desirable purpose with the bill; that the difference of expense was a matter of importance to the people of this country; that the expense of a mausoleum, from the best information he had been able to collect, would amount to at least 150 or $200,000; that a monument, such as was contemplated by the amendment, would not cost more than one tenth as much as a mausoleum, as contemplated by the bill as it now stood. Indeed, he believed that the bare expense of interring the remains of General Washington in a mausoleum would cost as much as the proposed monument.

Mr. A. said he considered Congress pledged, as far as the resolution of the last session went; that the gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. Otis,) who was up a few day ago upon this subject, had requested information; in answer to which he had only to observe that if that gentleman would have given himself the trouble to have examined the proceedings of the last session of Congress he would have been better informed than he appeared to be; that a committee equally respectable with that which had reported the bill at the present time, had then fully investigated the subject, and had made a report, which was to be found upon the journals of the last session of Congress, recommending a monument such as was contemplated by the proposed amendment, and that the request made by the President of the United States to Mrs. Washington, in conformity to the report of that committee, was for a monument; to which request she had consented; he, therefore, considered Congress as pledged thus far and no farther; that a motion was made in this House to change the monument to a mausoleum; that the recent death of General Washington at that time, prevented any person from opposing any measure which was offered, let the expense be what it would; but that the time which had elapsed since, had enabled the public mind the better to judge.

The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Lee) and the gentleman from Connecticut (Mr. Griswold) had dwelt a great deal upon the subject of public gratitude. It was by no means his wish or intention to lessen that sentiment, but he said that he could not give his consent to an expensive measure like that contemplated in the bill, when a measure far less expensive, in his opinion, would answer every purpose as well.

Mr. Alston was followed by Mr. Huger, who advocated the erection of a mausoleum.

Mr. Smilie replied. He considered the erection of a mausoleum as productive of unnecessary expense, as a monument would answer every rational purpose contemplated in the bill.

Mr. H. Lee next spoke at some length in favor of a mausoleum, and read a letter received from Mr. King, our Ambassador at London enclosing a plan, presented to him by an eminent foreign artist, for a mausoleum of one hundred and fifty feet base, and the same height, the expense of which was estimated at $170,000.

Mr. Champlin, after some remarks, moved that the committee rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

Which motion being carried without a division, the committee rose; and on the question to grant them leave to sit again, only three members rose in the affirmative.

Mr. Champlin then moved the recommitment of the bill to the same committee that reported it, with the addition of two members, which was carried, and Messrs. Claiborne and Champlin appointed.

After Mr. Champlin's motion for a recommitment of the bill to a select committee was carried,

Mr. Claiborne said he had risen to move that the committee just appointed be instructed to inquire into the expediency of carrying into effect a resolution passed by the old Congress, on the 7th of August, 1783, directing an equestrian statue of General Washington to be erected at the place where the residence of Congress shall be established.

Mr. C. said, that on a question which could not fail to excite the sensibility of every American heart, it was a subject of great regret that a division of sentiment should arise. The memory of our departed patriot lives in the affections of a grateful country, and will triumph over time. During a long life, so usefully and honorably employed, Washington had reared to himself a fabric of fame, the lustre of which can neither be diminished nor heightened by any measure that we can take. But, sir, from a respect for our own, as well as for the feelings of the nation, we should endeavor to unite in the last act of attention which we propose to show this venerable character.

Mr. C. said that the proposition for a mausoleum was calculated to create division. The expense of such a monument would be immense, and would be viewed by many as a profuse and useless expenditure of the public money. He believed that the statue recommended by the old Congress could be better justified upon principles of economy, and would meet with more general support. Here Mr. C. read from the journals of the old Congress the following resolutions:

A monument thus designed, (continued Mr. C.,) would portray in lively colors the military achievements of our late illustrious Chief, and is calculated to impress upon our posterity a grateful recollection of his eminent services. Mr. C. was the more interested in support of a monument of this kind, because it had been sanctioned by a unanimous vote of those venerable philosophers and statesmen who presided in our councils, at a time of the greatest danger, directed the storm of war, and tamed the rage of tyranny.

It was true, that this equestrian statue would not express any of the great events of Washington's civil life, but, of these, we have already many honorable testimonials; the first in order, and which he hoped would be the last in durability, was the Constitution of the United States; to this instrument his name was annexed, and would be noticed with gratitude by the lovers of freedom in every age and every clime; this city is another memento of his civil life, and, if it should be the residence of all that piety, wisdom, and magnanimity, which was so devoutly prayed for by each branch of the Legislature, at the commencement of the present session, this city would remain an honorable testimonial of the civil virtues of its great founder.

There was no doubt, said Mr. C., but that many gentlemen were also solicitous that the body of General Washington should be deposited within the walls of the Capitol; of this number Mr. C. was one, and was desirous that a plain but neat apartment should be speedily prepared for its reception. But over his remains, instead of an expensive monument, Mr. C. thought it most advisable to place a plain but neat tomb-stone, of American marble, and prepared by an American artist. And in order to convey to posterity, in impressive language, the feelings of the American nation, when the loss of our patriot, sage, and hero, was first announced, Mr. C. wished to see engraved upon this tomb the addresses of each House of Congress upon this occasion to the President of the United States, together with the President's replies thereto.

Mr. C. concluded by moving the instructions stated in the commencement of his speech.

Mr. Claiborne was followed by Messrs. Craik and Nott.

The instruction to the committee, moved by Mr. Claiborne, with a slight modification, was agreed to.

Monday, December 15.

Another member, to wit, Thomas Pinckney, from South Carolina, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Thursday, December 18.

Another member, to wit, James Sheafe, from New Hampshire, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Friday, December 19.

Mausoleum to Washington.

Mr. H. Lee, from the committee to whom was referred the several propositions made commemorative of the services of George Washington, reported a bill for the erection of a mausoleum, differing in no other respects from the former bill reported, except as to the materials of which the mausoleum is to be constructed; the present bill directing it to be made of stone, the former one directing it to be made of marble. He said that the committee, after maturely considering the relative merits of all the plans proposed, had preferred the mausoleum, as well from its superior durability as cheapness, to any other.

Tuesday, December 23.

Mausoleum to Washington.

Mr. H. Lee moved the going into a Committee of the Whole on the bill for erecting a mausoleum to George Washington.

On this question the House divided—yeas 42, nays 34.

Mr. Morris took the chair, and read the bill by paragraphs.

Mr. H. Lee said the merits of the bill had been so often discussed, and the subject was so delicate, that he would not again offer his sentiments generally on it. As it was the opinion of several members, that the dimensions of the mausoleum should not be fixed in the law, but that they should be governed by the sum appropriated, he moved to strike out "100 feet at the base and of proportionate dimensions."

The motion was agreed to.

Mr. H. Lee then moved an amendment confining the ground on which the mausoleum should be erected to public property.

Mr. Harper opposed the amendment, which was lost, only 31 members rising in favor of it.

Mr. H. Lee then moved to fill the blank, fixing the sum to be appropriated for erecting the mausoleum, with $200,000.

Mr. Smilie said he hoped the House would not with its eyes open go into a measure that might involve incalculable expense. It was proposed to appropriate $200,000. This was probably but a small part of what would be ultimately required; and when the thing was once begun, it must be completed, cost what it would. If the architect would give security for accomplishing the work for $200,000 he would not be so much opposed to it. But, as it stood, he was opposed to it, as a useless expenditure of public money.

Mr. Harper said the old story was again rung in their ears. An object, in itself highly important, was proposed, and, forsooth, because it cost some money, on the ground of economy it must be rejected.

He would ask the gentleman just up whether he knew any thing about the expense of a mausoleum? And yet not professing to be informed, professing indeed to know little, he had put his vague conjectures in the room of estimates formed with deliberation by artists of the first eminence. These clamorous objections were well understood. Their sole object was ad captandum vulgus; to create alarm about what was termed useless expense. They were intended for nothing else.

To satisfy the solicitude of gentlemen an artist of talents universally acknowledged had been desired to furnish an estimate; which estimate stated that a pyramid of 100 feet base would cost $67,000. This was the estimate of an artist of such accuracy that in the greatest work ever undertaken in America, and the greatest, perhaps, of its kind, ever undertaken in the world, (he alluded to the water works of Philadelphia,) the expense actually incurred had fallen short of the estimate. The same accuracy had characterized his plan and execution of the Bank of Pennsylvania, which was probably the greatest work of the kind executed in this country. And yet the gentleman from Pennsylvania will place his vague doubts, and (Mr. Harper begged pardon for the expression) his total want of knowledge against the calculations of a man of practical science.

The gentleman had asked whether any one could be found, who would be responsible for the execution of the work for the proposed sum. Mr. Harper said, if it were proper for a member of that House to say so, he would undertake himself to erect a mausoleum of 150 feet base, and 150 feet high, for $200,000; and for the performance of his engagement he could give the most unquestionable security, such as every member of that House would approve. He further believed that the artist before alluded to, if required, would give the necessary security. The accuracy of the estimate had been tested by every circumstance that the nature of the case admitted. The same course had been pursued, in this case, that every reasonable man was accustomed to take in his own private concerns. Every such individual, who designed building a house obtained first an estimate from a skilful workman, which satisfied him. If men acted not in this way, there could be no progress in human improvements.

After this information, furnished by such an artist, gentlemen ought to be satisfied without opposing to it their own crude conceptions; and Mr. Harper said he hoped they would cease to talk on a subject on which they were so ignorant, until they became better informed.

Mr. Macon did not see the subject in the same light with the gentleman from South Carolina. He was disposed to pay the greatest respect to his talents, but he could not give up his own opinion. The estimates made by the artist amounted to $140,000; yet the gentleman from Virginia required $200,000. Does not this show that the gentlemen themselves have not confided in the estimate of the artist?

Mr. H. Lee explained, and said that he thought the most proper plan for adoption was that of Mr. West; pursuing that plan, $200,000 might be required, as there would be interior arrangements to make, additional to those contemplated by the estimate.

Mr. Macon said he thought $140,000 would be sufficient. He knew not how to reconcile the difference between the estimate made in Philadelphia and that made in Washington; the first was only $67,000; which was a sum much below any calculated here. He did not pretend to any information on this subject, and the various modifications the bill had undergone, convinced him that no member was well acquainted with it. The estimates differed materially from each other. They could not therefore all be correct. He could not, from these considerations, feel confidence in the estimates of the gentleman from South Carolina, or the other gentleman; for if they really possessed correct information, how came they so radically to differ; and the committee itself to propose so many alterations in the original bill?

Mr. Smilie replied to Mr. Harper. The object of his remarks was, to show that Mr. H. possessed as little information on the subject as himself.

Mr. Rutledge.—The substance of what the gentleman says, is that he wants to do nothing. He had long thought so, and he was now confirmed in his opinion. When the man, whose loss the world deplored, departed from us, we were all shrouded with sorrow; the mournful event awakened our deepest regrets; and resolutions expressive of the national affliction at his death, and commemorative of his services, were unanimously passed by both Houses of Congress. Those resolutions were not carried into immediate effect, owing to the disagreement of the two branches of the Legislature. Now, when we propose to carry them into effect, objections are started to every measure offered; objections that rise eternally in our horizon; which, whenever we pursue, fly from our reach, and which, always moving in a circle, we can never overtake.

Gentlemen tell us they are unaccustomed to spend public money without estimates. To satisfy the vigilance of their economy we obtain them. They then tell us they are inaccurate; their objection arises from a want of detail; they wish a minute statement of each separate charge. Again, we consent to gratify their wishes, anxious for their sanction to our measures, that they may express the unanimous sentiment of Congress. We produce an estimate as minute as was ever furnished by an artist on any occasion. The total amount of estimated expense is $140,000, and to avoid the necessity of calling on Congress again, the gentleman from Virginia asks for $200,000.

Still, after all our trouble and solicitude to satisfy the scruples of gentlemen, they continue to urge objections. One gentleman says the estimate made at Philadelphia differs from that made here; another gentleman will not confide in any estimate, and another wants security.

Does it become the dignity of the House thus to be occupied with trifling objections on such a subject; and, in the spirit of bargaining, to waste its time in saving a few dollars?

Many gentlemen, anxious for this measure, had agreed to postpone the consideration of it, hoping thereby to accommodate other gentlemen in their views, and expecting ultimately a unanimous vote. But he now abandoned it. He saw no period to objections. Much time had already been idly wasted. They had delayed too long to do what ought to have been done at once. Let us then take the question at once, and get rid of it, though a veto should be passed upon the bill.

The question was then taken on filling up the blank with $200,000, and carried—yeas 41, nays 38.

Mr. Dent moved to amend the section appropriating the sum, by substituting the word "for," in the room of the word "towards," which would fix the whole sum to be appropriated, instead of leaving it uncertain. Agreed to.

The committee then rose and reported the bill as amended. On the question to agree to the $200,000 appropriated, the House divided—yeas 41, nays 38.

The Speaker then put the question on engrossing the bill for a third reading.

Mr. Claiborne was opposed to the engrossing of the bill. He hoped no gentleman would ascribe his opposition to a want of respect to the memory of our great patriot. His respect for this illustrious character had been almost coeval with his life, and would follow him to his grave.

He was opposed to a mausoleum, because it would not be so respectful to the memory of Washington, as the equestrian statue directed by the old Congress, who had directed the battle during our Revolutionary struggle, and for whose character he felt the highest veneration. The present Government could not refuse to carry into effect this act of the old Congress, without a violation of moral principle. He preferred a statue to a mausoleum, because the former, from representing the form and the features, would inspire the beholder with more lively emotions than a mass of stones formed into a pyramid.

Were the expense of a statue greater than that of a mausoleum, he would, notwithstanding, prefer it; but he believed the reverse would be the fact. He not only wished a statue raised, but also was in favor of an immediate appropriation for depositing the remains of our departed friend within these very walls, in such a manner as would not disgrace them.

Mr. Champlin had heretofore voted from a spirit of conciliation. He was now not a little surprised to find the gentlemen from Tennessee and South Carolina (Mr. Claiborne and Mr. Alston) opposed to a mausoleum, though their names appeared, from an inspection of the journals of last session, among those who were then in favor of it.

He considered a mausoleum as preferable to a statue, because the first was calculated to celebrate all the virtues of the statesman, as well as the hero, while the latter would be limited to his military exploits.

Great opposition had been made to the erection of a mausoleum, with the professed view of avoiding expense, and I admit generally that economy ought to be observed, in the expenditure of public money. But on an occasion highly interesting to the feelings, and deeply involving the character of the nation, even the appearance of parsimony should be carefully avoided. It is necessary to consider the nature and magnitude of the object for which money is required. It is not asked for, in the present instance, to commemorate a man distinguished only on the field of battle. It is not wanted to gratify family pride, or to raise a monument of despotic power and slavish submission. It is to be furnished by a great and free people, to record, in a manner worthy of themselves, their gratitude for the important services rendered to them by one of their fellow-citizens; the fruits of which I cannot but hope will be enjoyed and recognized by future generations. We are called upon by the public voice to erect a monument suited to the character of Washington, who has been emphatically styled, the man of the age, and whose virtues may, by the record we shall make of them, become the property of distant ages.

These virtues will doubtless be the theme of some able biographer, and it is wished that posterity may not search in vain for some striking evidence of our acknowledgment of them. It is indeed of infinite importance to civil society, that the memory of that great man should be perpetuated by every means in our power. We may thus sow the seeds of virtue, honor, and patriotism, in our country. He will be held up a model, to which the finger of wisdom will constantly point, to which the attention of youth will be irresistibly drawn, and the mind of every man aspiring to pre-eminence among a free people, will be riveted. The proposed mausoleum would be a structure well calculated to resist the ravages of time. As to the hand of man, at least of civilized man, we need not guard against it. The depository of the ashes of Washington will never be assailed by it. It may indeed be attacked by the ruthless hand of some invading barbarian. But its only security against such an attack must be derived from the courage and fortitude of the people of the United States. And I trust they will never tamely yield up the land of their forefathers.

Mr. Bird was against the bill, because it proposed the erection of a mausoleum, which would not be equal to the object for which it was raised without the expenditure of a vast sum of money; whereas a statue could be made, somewhat correspondent to the occasion, for a moderate sum. It was in vain for gentlemen to talk about a structure commensurate to the object. Such a thing was impossible. He moved the recommitment of the bill to a Committee of the whole House.

The question being put, the House divided—ayes 39, noes 39; and it passed in the negative by the casting vote of the Speaker.

Mr. Shepard said, I will do as much as any man to honor the memory of Washington. I have fought and bled with him several times. I have always supported and will continue to support him. But on the score of expense, I think we are going too far. I will go so far as to have his remains placed decently within these walls. Further I will not go; for I do not think we have a right to throw away the public money.

Mr. Macon delivered his reasons against a mausoleum, and in favor of an equestrian statue; and among other remarks, said, the idea that a mausoleum would be equal to the character of Washington, was preposterous. Few individuals in the world were capable of drawing his character. In a few words, he would say that no character that had ever lived was equal to him, and it was his firm belief, that the world would never see his equal.

Mr. Brown thought General Washington the best man that had ever lived; and he was surprised at the ideas of gentlemen on the ground of expense. If the mausoleum were agreed to, it would not cost each person in the United States four cents; and if the equestrian statue were also made, (which he hoped would also be done, for the sake of general accommodation,) it would not cost more than two cents. It seemed to him that some gentlemen were averse to doing any thing, though they did not wish the people to think so.

Mr. Alston would not have risen, had he not been marked by the gentleman from Rhode Island as an object of inconsistency.

Mr. Champlin explained by saying he did not mean to censure the gentleman for his change of opinion, for which he doubtless had good reasons.

Mr. Alston.—Let the measures of Congress be reviewed, and it would appear, that the House itself and the gentleman from Rhode Island had been as inconsistent as himself. He would appeal to the gentleman whether it was more honorable to desert his duty and fly a vote, than to act as he had done?

Mr. Huger said it was unnecessary at this time to take into view the old arguments that had been urged. The proposition of the gentleman from Tennessee, for an equestrian statue, was the only one he should notice. So impressed was he with the inadequacy of a common statue to express the gratitude of America, that he would rather have nothing done, than to have what was done in this backhanded way.

He was disposed to treat with respect the acts of the old Congress. But the act, to which the gentleman from Tennessee had alluded, and which he wished this House exclusively to carry into effect, was passed in reference to the military exploits of Gen. Washington, because, at the time it was passed, his life had been most characterized by them. Since that period circumstances had changed. If we are bound by the acts of the old Congress, are we not equally bound by those of the last session? If you adopt the ideas of the gentleman, do you not hold out the Commander-in-chief of the American Army as deserving a splendid monument, and the father of the constitution and other great civil acts as deserving nothing?

Without any concert whatever, a remarkable concurrence had taken place between West, Trumbull, and other respectable artists, who all gave an unequivocal preference to a mausoleum; which, in his opinion, would be far less expensive than a statue. The expense of the latter, as would appear from an estimate in the office of the Secretary of State, could not be less than forty thousand guineas, deliverable at Paris; and when the additional charges of transportation, insurance, and other incidental expenses, were considered, he was persuaded it could not be completed for less than two or three hundred thousand dollars.

Mr. J. C. Smith considered the Government as pledged to do that which they had promised, and which the national feeling required.

Mr. Randolph must consider the present as a tedious and useless debate. The gentleman had declared the Government to be pledged. To whom were they pledged, and for what? It was to the relics of the deceased; to have them placed within these walls. For this, there were the strongest reasons, as such a measure would be agreeable to the venerable lady to whom he had been united. If then they were so pledged, why violate this pledge, by referring the business to the Secretary of State, of the Treasury, of War, and of the Navy; though what connection there was between the office of the Secretary of the Navy and the performance of the trust, he could not tell?

One consideration with him was insuperable. The departure from the original plan tended, unjustly, and most cruelly, (however pure the intention,) to violate the feelings of a lady, so much troubled already.

Mr. J. C. Smith said it had been declared by some gentlemen that the reputation of Washington might be safely confided to the record of history. Was it the opinion of those gentlemen that the record was to be found in the charge of murder against that illustrious character? Was it to be found in the patriotic effusions of men who had pronounced all expressions of national gratitude a mockery of woe, and had declared that it was high time for those who were the sincere apostles of liberty to be done with such foolery; or was it to be found in the denunciations of a printer, supported by a State that perpetually boasted its regard to Republicanism?

Mr. Harper could not but regret that a gentleman, who possessed so lively a regret for the venerable lady alluded to, should have exhibited in this discussion so glaring a contrast between his professions and his actions, by introducing that lady into the debate, and indelicately expressing her wishes, in reference to the place where the relics of her deceased partner should be deposited. Was it conceivable that to her the place could be of any importance? Or was it possible that this House could be enslaved by the trifling circumstance of the locus in quo, or that the paltry consideration attending an action of trespass could be gravely introduced into such a debate. All that this venerable lady says amounts to this, that, accustomed from the example of her deceased friend to obey the national wishes, she submitted to that disposition of his remains that Congress may make. Shall we, then, in violation of the plain meaning of her words, enter into whispers of hearsay respecting wishes, which, from his knowledge of her good sense, he was persuaded had never been uttered?

Mr. Randolph rose to explain. He had neither said, nor intended to say, that he possessed any knowledge beside that which appeared on the journals; and from that knowledge he was justified in saying that Mrs. Washington's compliance, as expressed by her, was not with any public will that might be expressed, but with that will which had been already expressed. Whatever insinuations the gentleman from South Carolina may mean to convey, his feelings of respect for every woman were sacred; nor were they limited to that sex alone. He was not disposed on this occasion to take the advice of the gentleman, who judging me by his own heart, said Mr. R., may imagine me capable of disrespect to the sex.

Mr. Harper wished the gentleman would avoid any further interruption, and reserve his remarks until he was done. He did not know, nor was he concerned to inquire into the motives of the gentleman from Virginia. Such inquiry would, of all others, be the least profitable or interesting, either to the House or to himself. Neither had he any idea of giving advice which that gentleman would follow. He well knew that it was the most hopeless of all things to give advice to one whose own sense of propriety did not tell him what was right. Those, who were incapable of receiving lessons from their own minds or feelings, were not likely to receive them from any other quarter.

The feelings ascribed to Mrs. Washington were unfounded. The lady was incapable of entering into trifling disputes about place or time, such as the House had this day witnessed.

The arguments, by which the superiority of a statue to a mausoleum was attempted to be established, were fallacious. The form and features of our illustrious friend would be preserved without the erection of any statue by us. Pictures by celebrated artists were every where multiplied and caught at with avidity; and the sculptor and the painter will be employed unceasingly to keep pace with the increasing demand. Likenesses may be found every where, and as perfect on the other side of the Atlantic as on this.

A mausoleum would last for ages, and would present the same imperishable appearance two thousand years hence, that it would now. Whereas a statue would only remain until some civil convulsion, or foreign invasion, or flagitious conqueror, or lawless mob, should dash it into atoms; or till some invading barbarian should transport it as a trophy of his guilt to a foreign shore.

I have beheld, said Mr. H., a monument erected to a man, once considered as the patron of America, defaced, mutilated, its head broken off, prostrated with the ground. A statue, erected by the Legislature of Virginia to perpetuate the virtues of a man to future ages, had been destroyed.

Besides, a statue was minute, trivial, and perishable. It was a monument erected to all that crowd of estimable but subordinate personages, that soar in a region, elevated indeed above common character, but which was infinitely below that occupied by Washington.

The greatest honor which this country ever has received, the greatest honor which it ever could receive, was derived from numbering with its sons the immortal Washington.

Shall then a mistaken spirit of economy, and a still more mistaken jealousy arrest us? Honor him, it is true, we cannot. The world has charged itself with that task. Posterity, as long as the world shall endure, will celebrate his virtues and his talents; those virtues and talents of which every ingredient of their happiness will be a perpetual evidence. But though we cannot honor him, we may dishonor ourselves; though we cannot increase the lustre of his fame, we may show our own meanness, cowardice, spite, and malice; and show an astonished world that we are deplorably unworthy of the high honor conferred by Nature in giving us a Washington.

I am, said Mr. H., awfully impressed by the subject. I sink under the sublimity that surrounds it. No words can reach it; mine are totally inadequate; to the feelings of the House then it must be submitted: they, after anticipating all that genius or eloquence can say, will still far surpass their boldest effusions.

Mr. Randolph was very unfortunately situated, as he was compelled to rise, not in his own defence, but in defence of the calumniated reputation of that State which he revered, since from it he derived his birth.

I will not, said Mr. R., enter into an elucidation of the motives of the gentleman from South Carolina, which have produced so much asperity, and such a virulence of rancor against the State of Virgina, but will confine myself to the question on engrossing the bill.

The gentleman has talked to us about his disregard for the locus in quo. Mr. R. said he cared as little for the quo modo, as the gentleman did for the locus in quo.

He had further told us that a statue might be overthrown by a licentious mob; and that this had actually been the case in the State of Virginia. But, why had it been so? Because that statue had been erected in the life-time of the person it celebrated; because it had been erected under the Colonial Government; and because, like every other fetter of tyranny, it was broken by the Revolutionary spirit that established our liberties.

But, says the gentleman, statues are raised for subordinate men, for this admiral or that general, who may deserve well of their country, but who do not merit the highest distinctions of national gratitude. If this measure of raising a mausoleum is to be only a cover for obtaining statues for temporary and secondary and trifling characters, it may have a very alarming influence upon us.

It is not easy, for a man of even less sensibility than myself, to hear in silence the State in which I was born, and one of whose Representatives I am, calumniated in the manner in which it had been that day, by the gentlemen from Connecticut and South Carolina. In defence of that State, actuated by a love to it, and not from any respect to its detractors; not to repel any imputation of meanness, of cowardice, of malice, which the gentleman from South Carolina has called ours, (meaning, I suppose, his own,) I will inform him, and the gentleman from Connecticut, that that State was the first to celebrate the fame of the Hero of America, by erecting a statue to him in the Capitol at Richmond.

The gentleman from Connecticut objects to a confidence in the record of the historian. Does the gentleman wish to suppress the history of the political events of 1776? Or does he believe that these events will be handed down in association with the bloody buoy, and Porcupine's works? Perhaps he has formed from his own mind a proper selection for our children, and is against the press handing down any thing else?