Mr. T. Claiborne said, that during the last Winter, a report had been made by the Committee of Claims, on the petition of Amy Dardin, unfavorable to the petitioner, which, after full discussion, had been disagreed to by the House; and on the 24th of February a motion for appointing a committee to bring in a bill for her relief was made and committed to a Committee of the Whole, but for want of time had not been acted upon. He now wished to bring the matter before the House, and for that purpose moved that a committee be appointed to bring in a bill for the relief of Amy Dardin.
This motion met with opposition. It will, perhaps, be recollected that this, though a strong claim, in point of justice, is directly in the face of the Limitation Act. Messrs. Macon, Sitgreaves, and Harper, wished the matter to go again to the Committee of Claims, as many members now in the House were unacquainted with the merits of the claim; and the latter gentleman, because he thought the House had been surprised into a decision, contrary to fifty other determinations on similar questions, which ought now to be reversed.
Mr. Claiborne opposed this course, and trusted the House would again be influenced by the justice of the claim, to act as they had heretofore done, by passing a bill for the relief of the petitioner.
Mr. Gallatin thought it would be best to commit the business to the same Committee of the Whole to which they had yesterday referred a report of the Committee of Claims on the subject of excepting a certain description of claims from the operation of that act.
The business was, however, closed by Mr. Claiborne's withdrawing his motion for the present.
Two other members, to wit: James Gillespie and Joseph McDowell, from the State of North Carolina, appeared and took their seats.
Mr. Gallatin called for the order of the day on the report of the Committee of Claims, to whom it was referred to inquire into and report on the expediency or inexpediency of designating certain claims against the United States to be excepted from the operation of the acts of limitation; which being agreed to, the House accordingly resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the subject, Mr. Dent in the chair. The report was read, as follows:
The Committee of Claims who were "instructed to inquire into, and report on, the expediency or inexpediency of designating certain claims against the United States, to be excepted from the operation of the acts of limitation," report:
That, in obedience to the orders of the House, they have made all the inquiries which to them appear necessary; that they have attentively and deliberately considered the subject referred to them; and are of opinion that it would not be expedient to designate any species of claims against the United States which are now affected by the acts of limitation, to be excepted from the operation of those acts.
In considering this subject, a review of the situation of the United States, as respected their finances, during the period when most of the demands originated, was requisite. It was also necessary to ascertain what measures had been adopted by Congress, both under the old and under the present government, to bring all the demands against the States to a liquidation and settlement.
It will be recollected, that, at the commencement of the war, the United States were destitute of money; and during a long period of years afterwards, were obliged to rely principally on credit, for carrying on all their important operations.
Having, at that time, no settled National Government, a regular system for conducting public business, especially money transactions, depending on credit, was not to be expected.
Great numbers of individuals were necessarily invested with the power of binding the public by their contracts. Almost every officer of the Army, whether in the Commissary's Department or otherwise, in different stages of the war, had it in his power to contract debts legally or equitably binding upon the United States. We find Congress, at various times, during the war, endeavoring to make arrangements which should prevent an undue use of the powers vested in individuals, and the dangerous consequences to which the Government was thereby necessarily exposed. The acts of the 5th of March, 1779, and of the 23d of August, 1780, were calculated to limit the public responsibility in such cases. After the peace, and under the old Government, periods were prescribed, within which claims of certain descriptions, and finally all unliquidated claims, were to be exhibited for settlement, or to be for ever thereafter barred.
It must be acknowledged by all, that during those periods every provision which could rationally have been expected was made for the accommodation of individuals having claims against the public, to enable them to obtain proper settlements of their demands. The journals of Congress under the confederation will abundantly justify this remark.
Commissioners were appointed, with special or general powers, to settle the claims of individuals in all the departments; and, in every instance, the powers given were plenary and explicit. Sufficient time was given for every one to obtain information and pursue his remedy; and ample opportunity was given for all to substantiate their claims, or, at least, to present abstracts of them, which would have prevented their being foreclosed by the acts designed eventually to operate upon them. The cases cannot be numerous, in which the want of opportunity to bring forward claims can be justly pleaded as an excuse for the omission.
By the act of the 17th of March, 1785, all persons having unliquidated claims against the United States were required, within twelve months, to exhibit particular abstracts of such claims, to some of the Commissioners in the State in which they respectively resided, who were sent and empowered to settle accounts against the United States, under the penalty or condition that accounts not so presented, should be thereafter settled only at the Treasury.
By another act of Congress, of the same year, viz: November 2d, 1785, all persons having claims for services performed in the military department, were directed to exhibit the same for liquidation to the Commissioners of Army accounts, on or before the first day of August, then ensuing. By that act it was expressly resolved, that all claims, under the description above mentioned, which might be exhibited after that period, should be for ever thereafter precluded from adjustment and allowance.
And it was provided, by the act of July 23d, 1787, that all persons having unliquidated claims against the United States, pertaining to the late Commissaries', Quartermaster's, Hospital, Clothier's, or Marine department, should exhibit particular abstracts of such claims to the proper Commissioner appointed to settle the accounts of those departments, within eight months from the date of the said act; and all persons having other unliquidated claims against the United States, were to exhibit particular abstracts thereof to the Comptroller of the Treasury of the United States, within one year from the date thereof; and all accounts not exhibited as aforesaid, were to be precluded from settlement or allowance.
These regulations were adopted by Congress under the old Government. Great care was taken to have them extensively published, so that every individual who was interested might be informed of their existence and operation.
Under the present constitution there has not been wanting a disposition to relieve certain individuals whose claims were considered as peculiarly meritorious, which had been affected by the acts above recorded.
With this view, in March, 1792, two several acts of Congress were passed, suspending for two years the operation of the resolutions of Congress of November 2d, 1785, and July 27th, 1787, so far as they had barred or might be construed to bar the claims of the widow or orphans of any officer of the late army, to the seven years' half pay of such officer; or the claims of any officer, soldier, artificer, sailor, and marine, of the Army of the United States, for personal services rendered to the United States in the military or naval departments.
In consequence of these suspensions, many claims were exhibited, and allowed against the Government. There is reason to apprehend, in some instances, the public were defrauded for want of proper pre-existing checks and evidences of payments being made. This suspension continued for the term of two years, which was till March, 1794. In the mean time, viz: on the 12th of February, 1793, the act "relative to claims against the United States, not barred by any act of limitation, and which had not been already adjusted," was passed by Congress, after a serious and attentive consideration of the subject.
By that law it was provided, "that all claims upon the United States for services or supplies, or for other cause, matter, or thing, furnished or done, previous to the 4th day of March, 1789, whether founded upon certificates, written documents from public officers, or otherwise, which had not already been barred by any act of limitation, and which should not be presented at the Treasury before the first day of May, 1794, should for ever after be barred and precluded from settlement or allowance." But this was not to be construed as affecting Loan Office certificates, certificates of final settlements, indents of interest, balances entered on the books of the Register of the Treasury, registered certificates, foreign loans, or certificates issued under the act making provision for the public debt of the United States.
One other act, passed the 3d day of March, 1795, provided that Loan Office certificates, final settlements, and indents of interest, then outstanding, should be presented at the office of the Auditor of the Treasury, on or before the first day of January, in the present year, 1797, or be for ever after barred or precluded from settlement or allowance.
The summary contains a general view of the principal acts of limitation, by which claims against the public have been affected.
From an attentive consideration of them, and of the circumstances under which they were enacted, the committee are fully impressed with an opinion that it would not be expedient to suspend their operation.
Some remarks extracted from a report heretofore made to Congress, are subjoined by the committee, as pertinent to the subject.
It was essential to the public administration that the extent of just demands upon the Government should be, within a reasonable period, definitely ascertained. It was essential to public safety and to right, in relation to the whole community, that all unsettled claims should be made known within a time when there were yet means of proper investigation, and after which the public responsibility should terminate, and the possibility of charging the Government by collusive and fictitious contracts, should be at an end.
The justice as well as policy of acts of limitation, under such circumstances, cannot be doubted.[27]
The situation of no country ever presented a more clear necessity for, or a more competent justification of, precautions of that nature. And all the reasons for adopting them operate to recommend unusual caution in departing from them, with the additional force of this circumstance, that the subsequent lapse of time has increased the difficulties of a due examination.
The accounts of a considerable number of officers, who had it in their power to bind the public by their contracts, and who were intrusted with large sums of money for fulfilling their engagements, remain unsettled. Some of those persons are dead; others have absconded; the business has been conducted by others with so little order as to put it out of their power to render a proper statement of their transactions. The books and papers of others, who had extensive trusts, have been destroyed, so as to preclude the possibility of settlement. Hence it must appear that the Government would, in a great number of cases, be destitute of the means of repelling unfounded and even satisfied claims, for want of documents and vouchers, which only could have resulted from a due settlement with those officers, and from the possession of their books and papers.
It might be inferred without proof, and it has appeared in the course of business at the Treasury, that it was a practice with certain public officers, on obtaining supplies, to give receipts and certificates for them, and when they made payments, either partially or totally, to take distinct receipts from the parties, without either endorsing the payment upon the original vouchers or requiring a surrender of them.
Hence it would often happen that parties could produce satisfactory vouchers of their having performed services and furnished supplies, for which, though satisfaction may have been made, the evidences of it would not be in the possession of the Government. And hence, from relaxations of the limitation acts, there would be great danger that much more injustice would be done to the United States than justice to individuals.
The principles of self-defence, therefore, require and justify an adherence to those acts generally; and there are not any particular species of claims, which, in view of the committee, ought to be exempted from their operation.
Those which have been most frequently referred to by some members of the House, are such claims as include the arrearages of pay and other emoluments to officers and soldiers of the late army, &c.
Pursuant to an order of the House at the first session of the present Congress, a report was made to them, having special reference to this subject. It was considered in Committee of the Whole, and agreed to by the House on the fifth day of February, 1796. To that report and the documents accompanying the same, the committee ask leave to refer the House, and respectfully submit the whole subject to their consideration.
John Wilkes Kittera, from Pennsylvania, appeared, and took his seat in the House.
A new member, to wit, Peleg Sprague, from New Hampshire, in place of Jeremiah Smith, resigned, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat.
Mr. T. Claiborne moved that the report of the Committee of Claims, on the petition of Amy Dardin, be referred to a Committee of the Whole.
The Speaker said, that the report having been negatived at a former session, and a bill brought in for her relief, but not decided upon, the proper motion would be to appoint a committee to bring in a bill.
Mr. Claiborne made that motion, which Mr. Coit moved to be referred to the Committee of Claims, in order that they might report the facts relative to the case, which were not generally known.
Mr. Claiborne objected to this; and
Mr. Baldwin suggesting the propriety of committing it to the same Committee of the Whole, to whom were referred the subject of considering the expediency of excepting certain claims from the operation of the limitation acts, this course was adopted.
Mr. Dawson wished to call the attention of the House to a subject, which, he doubted not, would interest the feelings of every member. The subject he alluded to was the situation of General Kosciusko. It was a fact well known to every man in this country, it was a fact known to the world, that this brave man entered into the service of the United States, at an early period of our Revolutionary war. When this service was ended, he received from the Government a certificate of what was due to him. He returned to Poland, his native country; there, animated by the same spirit which had led him to take a part in our struggle for independence, he endeavored to overthrow the existing tyranny, and to introduce in its place liberty and independence. For some time his attempt seemed likely to be crowned with success; but, on the fatal 10th of October, 1794, overpowered by numbers, he was defeated and taken prisoner. Covered with wounds and with glory, he was conducted to the prison of Petersburgh. When he was released from thence, he immediately set out to this country, here to spend the remainder of his life. He was now within this city; but, from the wounds he had received in his arduous but unsuccessful conflict, he was unable to walk or to attend to any business. The unfortunate day on which he was taken prisoner, he lost his all, and with it the certificate of the services rendered to the United States. He was unable, therefore, to obtain a settlement of his account at the Treasury. To set aside all difficulty in the matter, Mr. D. proposed to offer a resolution to the consideration of the House; and as it was justice only which he sought for this brave man, he doubted not that a spirit of justice would ensure its adoption. It was to the following effect:
"Resolved, That a committee be appointed to inquire and report whether any, and, if any, what provisions are necessary, to obtain payment of the claim of Gen. Kosciusko on the United States."
Mr. J. Parker seconded the motion. He hoped the resolution would be agreed to, and that immediate attention would be paid to the unfortunate gentleman, as he believed, except he made use of the grant made to him by the Emperor of Russia, which, he believed, he was disinclined to do, for considering his predecessor as the chief cause of his own misfortunes, and those of his country, he did not wish to be under obligations to him. The certificate given to the General on his departure from hence, was for $12,800, upon which he had received only one year's interest. He hoped, therefore, as he had the misfortune to lose his certificate, at the time he was taken prisoner, that the House would take such measures as should enable him to receive the amount of his certificate, with the interest due thereon.
Mr. Coit moved that the resolution should be committed to the Committee of Claims, but afterwards changed his motion so as to make that committee the committee to inquire and report, instead of a select committee. He professed to have no other object in these motions than that this claim should take the same course with other claims.
The motion was supported by Messrs. Allen, J. Williams, Macon, and Edmond. It was opposed by Messrs. J. Parker, Livingston, Gallatin, Brooks, Nicholas, Harper, Sheperd, Otis, Pinckney, Swanwick, S. Smith, T. Claiborne, and McDowell.
The motion for a reference to the Committee of Claims was lost—59 to 33.
Mr. Pinckney said, that as this claim was different from most others which came before that House, and having himself had something to do in the business, he would state to the House what he knew of it. Previous to General Kosciusko's return to Poland, whilst he was in Germany, he applied to the Polish Ambassador in London, by letter, requesting him to make application to the American Minister there for payment of a part of the money due to him from the United States. The mode of transacting this business was this: The interest arising from the certificate granted to the General, was made payable in Paris; but from the change which took place in the French Government, the General did not know how to receive it there, which was the reason of his making application, through the Polish Minister, to him (Mr. P.) in London. Mr. P. wrote to the American Minister in Paris for an order on the bankers of the United States in Holland, but having in the mean time received a letter from Gen. Kosciusko, requesting the money to be sent for him to Ratisbon or Leipsic, he (Mr. P.) sent an order to Amsterdam, requesting the bankers there to transmit the money either to Ratisbon or Leipsic, as the exchange should be most advantageous. In the interim General Kosciusko returned to Poland, and he supposed he then had no time to attend to this business. He never heard any more upon the subject until he saw the General in Philadelphia, when he found this money had not been received by him; so that he supposed it yet lay in the hands of the Leipsic or Ratisbon banker.
Finding this to be the case, Mr. P. immediately wrote to the banker at Amsterdam, requesting him to redraw the money, and to transmit it here for the General's use. But, as he might, in the mean time, stand in need of it, it might be proper in the United States to anticipate its return, by settling the account with the General. He hoped in whatever way this business was effected, it would be in such a way as not to wound the feelings of a man who had deserved so well of this country.
On a suggestion of Mr. Sitgreaves, instead of appointing a committee, the Secretary of the Treasury was directed to make a report what "Legislative provision was necessary, &c."
This motion was carried by 49 to 40; but whatever difference of opinion there was in the House, as to the mode of doing the business, there seemed to be but one sentiment, as to the propriety of complying with the spirit of the resolution.
Samuel Jordan Cabell, from the State of Virginia, appeared, and took his seat.
Mr. Livingston, from the committee to whom was referred the petition of the daughters of the late Count de Grasse, made a report, which stated that the sum heretofore allowed by Congress was intended only as a temporary provision, until the events of the war should permit them to take possession of an estate in St. Domingo; that the facts formerly stated showed that the most important services were rendered to the United States by their father, from motives the most honorable, under the greatest responsibility, and at a risk the most hazardous that could be encountered by an officer of rank and reputation; that, with a recollection of these services, it would consist neither with the honor nor justice of the United States to refuse an adequate provision for the orphan children of the man who rendered them. The committee, therefore, recommended that a certain sum should be granted to each of them, annually, for their lives. The report was twice read, and committed for Monday.
The Speaker laid before the House a letter and report from the Secretary of the Treasury, in pursuance of a resolution of the House, of the 23d instant, relative to the claim of General Kosciusko. The report states, that the accounts of the General were settled at the Treasury in 1784, when a certificate was issued to him for $12,280 49, bearing an interest of six per cent. from the 1st of January, 1784, which was stipulated by a resolution in February following, in common with the interest due to all the foreign officers, to be paid annually at Paris; that in May, 1792, moneys were granted by Congress to discharge the principal and interest of these debts, at which time it was supposed that all the officers had received their interest to the 1st of January, 1789; but it now appears by the banker's account at Paris, that no interest had been received by General Kosciusko for four years, viz.: from 1785 to 1788. Sufficient funds to pay the interest from 1789 to 1792, were, in 1792, placed in Amsterdam, subject to the disposal of our Minister at Paris; that by his direction a bill for the amount was remitted to Mr. Pinckney in London; but, pursuant to the direction of General Kosciusko, Mr. Pinckney wrote to the banker at Amsterdam to remit the amount to Leipsic or Dresden. That in September, 1792, a notification was published, that provision had been made for paying the principal of the debt due to foreign officers, on application at the Treasury, after the 15th of October following, and that the interest upon their demands would cease after the last day of December in that year. That though the certificate issued to the General is stated by him to have been lost or destroyed, yet the powers of the officers of the Treasury are competent to the payment of $12,280 54, the principal, and $2,947 33 interest, for the years from 1785 to 1788, on receiving a bond of indemnification from the General: but that they cannot advance the interest supposed to have been remitted to Leipsic or Dresden, though payment will be immediately made for any sum which may be hereafter redrawn, and credited to the United States at Amsterdam; nor is it in the power of the Treasury to allow any interest on said principal since the 1st January, 1793.
On motion of Mr. Dawson, this report was referred to a Committee of the Whole for Monday.
John Fowler, from the State of Kentucky, appeared and took his seat.
Mr. Dawson moved the order of the day on the report of the Secretary of the Treasury on the claim of Gen. Kosciusko; which motion being acceded to, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr. Kittera in the chair, and the report having been read,
Mr. Dawson said, when he had the honor of presenting this business to the House, he hoped the proposition he then submitted would have been agreed to in that way, which, in his opinion, would have been most honorable to the United States, and most agreeable to the person concerned. In this hope he had been disappointed; but, though they differed as to the mode of doing the business, there was but one opinion as to the business itself. He had now a resolution to submit to the consideration of the House, which he trusted would meet with no opposition. It would be found, by the report of the Secretary of the Treasury, that the accounting officers were ready to pay to General Kosciusko $12,280 principal, and $2,947 interest, from 1785 to 1788. To recover those two sums, therefore, there would have been no occasion for application to that House. It also states, that a bill had been remitted to our Minister at London, for the interest from 1789 to 1792, but which money was afterwards, by direction of the General, ordered to be remitted to Leipsic or Dresden; but it did not appear that this order had been complied with. It was clear, however, it was never received by him, nor had he given any person a right to receive it. He hoped, therefore, as the money lay at Amsterdam, Leipsic or Dresden, and could at any time be got by the United States, there would be no objection to pay the General that sum at this time. It was further stated in the report, that in September, 1792, a notification was published, informing all the foreign officers that provision was made at the Treasury for the payment of the principal of their debts, and that the interest thereon would therefore cease after the last day of December in that year. Upon examination he did not find that this arrangement was founded upon any law; it was, therefore, a regulation agreed upon by the Treasury Department, and ought not to operate to the injury of persons who were ignorant of it. It was well known, that, from the peculiar situation of General Kosciusko at the time, that he could not hear of it; and the truth was, he never did hear of it until he arrived in this city. He hoped, therefore, there would be no objection to the payment of the amount of the certificates, with interest to the present time. To effect this purpose, he proposed the following resolution:
"Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee, that the Secretary of the Treasury be authorized and directed to pay to General Kosciusko, the interest of six per cent. per annum, on $12,280 54, the amount of the certificate received by him from the United States, and now lost, from the 1st of January, 1789, to the 31st day of December, 1797."
This resolution was opposed by Messrs. Macon, Coit, and J. Williams. They were opposed to interest being paid up to the present time, and wished, if any provision were made for paying interest beyond the time fixed by the notification of the Treasury, that the regulation should be a general one, and extend to all other foreign officers. They were also against paying the interest, which had been transmitted to Paris for General Kosciusko's use, and which, by his direction, was afterwards remitted to Leipsic or Dresden, as it most probably lay there, and would be paid to his order without their interference.
The motion was advocated by Messrs. Venable, Pinckney, J. Parker, Harper, Gallatin, and T. Claiborne, and was finally agreed to without a division.
Mr. Harper moved the order of the day on the bill to amend the several acts for laying a duty on spirits distilled within the United States, and on stills; which motion being agreed to, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the subject, Mr. Kittera in the chair. The bill having been read,
Mr. Macon said, that the report of the Committee of Ways and Means, on the proposition for allowing distillers to take licenses for a week, having been referred to that committee, if it were taken up at all, this was the proper time. He should, therefore, propose an additional section to the bill, to embrace this objection.
Mr. M. accordingly presented a section to allow of weekly licenses.
This motion produced a considerable debate. It was opposed by Messrs. Sewall, Griswold, Gallatin, Gordon, and Brooks, on the ground that the duty now paid upon spirits distilled from fruit (which description of distillers the regulation was avowedly intended to accommodate) was not equal to that paid by distillers of grain, as the duty on spirits distilled from fruit was not more than two and a half cents per gallon, whilst that on spirits distilled from grain paid seven cents; and if the amendments were agreed to, this inequality would be increased—for persons who took a license for a week, by preparing their materials beforehand, and working night and day, would finish their business within that time, which otherwise would have required a fortnight; by which means the duty would be reduced from six cents per gallon, on the capacity of their stills, to four; that it would increase the temptation to fraud, as that temptation was strong, or the contrary, in proportion to the length of time for which a license was taken; as a person taking a license for a fortnight, by working his still one day past the time specified in his license would gain half a cent a gallon on the capacity of his still, whilst he who took out a license for six months would only gain half that sum. If licenses for a week were allowed, the temptation would therefore be increased; that such a regulation would greatly augment the duties of excise officers, without rendering any material advantages to individuals—since, if the owner of a still of fifty gallons took out a license for a fortnight, when a week might have served, he would only pay a dollar more than he would have paid for a week; that when this scale of duties was made, reference was had to the situation of persons who would be obliged to take out a license for a fortnight, though they might not have fruit to employ a still more than a few days, and a rate proportionably low adopted; that the same reasons which were urged for allowing licenses for a week might be urged for allowing one for two days; that, though there might be some inconveniences experienced by the distillers of fruit, (as it was not doubted there might be in other parts of the law,) yet, as it was only just got into operation, it would not be right to enter into the proposed regulation, but defer it to the period when it would most probably be necessary to go into a review of the whole law.
The motion was supported by Messrs. Macon, Harrison, Harper, J. Parker, Nicholas, Venable, R. Williams, New, Dennis, T. Claiborne, and Clay. It was asserted that the law as it now stood excluded four out of five of the owners of orchards, in the Southern States, from distilling their early fruit at all; that their peaches ripened hastily, and as hastily rotted, if not made use of. Persons who had only fruit to employ their stills for three or four days, sooner than take a license for a fortnight, suffered their fruit to rot; and to allow licenses for a week would produce a considerable augmentation of the revenue, since those persons only would take such a license, who, if that privilege were not allowed, would not take out a license at all, or such as had occasion to distil a few days longer after their two weeks' license was expired. It was unjust to require a man, who had only a small orchard, and occasion to use a still but a few days, to pay a much higher duty upon his brandy than his more opulent neighbor. It was not so inconsiderable an object as gentlemen supposed, since it had not reference to one license only—farmers in the Southern States having occasion to take out separate licenses for their early, their middle, and their latter fruits; and this regulation would not open a door to fraud, as was supposed. It was an undeserved imputation upon the characters of persons concerned in this business, to suppose they could be tempted to defraud the revenue for the sake of half a cent per gallon upon what they could distil in a day. The penalties consequent upon fraud, if the virtue of the persons concerned could not be relied upon, were sufficient to guard against them; and, if they were not, it could not be expected, as some gentlemen seemed to suppose, that the excise officers should overlook the conduct of every distiller. If they were to be so inspected and scourged, an attempt to defraud the revenue could scarcely be blamed; and, except it were the intention of gentlemen to crush this domestic manufacture, no reasonable objection could be urged against the proposition. The objections which had been urged proved the ignorance of gentlemen in respect to this branch of business; for though the excise officers would have some trouble in issuing licenses, it was believed they would be well satisfied to encounter it, since their profits were in proportion to the quantity of spirits distilled; and though this law had been but a short time in being, the last season, having been a scarce fruit season, had given a good opportunity of trying it. As the application for this amendment was seconded by the whole of the Southern country, it was entitled to respect, and ought not to be branded with being a fraudulent design upon the revenue.
In the course of the debate, Mr. Gallatin called upon gentlemen acquainted with the subject, to say what was the quantity of spirits which could be distilled from peaches in a week by a still of the capacity of thirty, forty or fifty gallons, with a view to show that this species of spirits paid less at present than spirits distilled from grain.
Mr. Clay answered this inquiry, by saying, that a still of fifty gallons would distil from five to seven gallons of brandy a day. If the weather was wet, and the peaches rotted quickly, not more than five; but when the weather was dry, and the peaches sound, seven gallons might be produced.
The question on the amendment was at length put and carried—45 to 37.
Mr. Dennis said, he wished to try another principle in this bill. The law at present required an annual entry of stills, whether they were used or not, which occasioned persons frequently to ride twenty or thirty miles to make the entry, when they had no intention to make use of their still; and not unfrequently, from not meeting with the officers at home, this journey was taken two or three times over. Indeed, he believed, more penalties had been incurred on account of this regulation than any other, and he looked upon it as a useless regulation. When a still was once entered, he thought it was sufficient, and no future entry ought to be required, except when a still was about to be made use of, or when it was transferred into other hands. Mr. D. proposed a section to this effect; but after some objections to the introduction of so important a provision into this bill, (which before it could be decided upon would require considerable discussion,) by Messrs. Hartley, Gallatin, and Harper, he agreed to withdraw it for the present.
It having been agreed to fill the blank of the sum per gallon to be paid on the capacity of a still, when a license was taken for a week, with four cents, the committee rose; the House took up the amendments, agreed to them, and the bill was ordered to be engrossed for a third reading to-morrow.
Mr. Livingston called for the order of the day on the bill for granting an annuity to the daughters of the late Count de Grasse; which being agreed to, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the subject, Mr. Dent in the chair; and, after a number of desultory observations, the blanks were filled up, viz: the time for which the annuities should continue was fixed at five years, and the sum per annum to be allowed at $500 each. The first question was determined by a considerable majority, there being 57 votes in favor of it; the latter was carried—46 to 38.
The committee then rose and reported the amendments. They were all agreed to without a division, except the sum to be allowed per annum. When that question was put,
Mr. J. Williams hoped it would not be agreed to. When the subject was before under discussion, the question on $500 and $400 had been negatived. $500 a year for the four daughters for five years, he said, would be $10,000. He thought this a very serious sum. He again adverted to the situation of many of our own citizens, and called for the yeas and nays upon the question.
Mr. Harper asked whether, if, when the Count de Grasse was solicited to remain with the fleet under his command in the Chesapeake, at his own risk and responsibility, he had asked as a condition that on some future day $10,000 should be granted to his daughters, would it not have been complied with, if it had been ten times that sum? And ought his descendants to be more hardly dealt with because their father had the generosity and magnanimity not to make the demand? He trusted not.[28]
After some observations in favor of concurring with the Committee of the Whole in their vote, by Messrs. Thatcher, Brooks, Livingston, and Gordon; and against it by Messrs. Varnum, McDowell, and Macon—the former of whom said that the clergy, in his part of the country, had not more than three hundred and thirty dollars a year; and the latter gentleman produced three cases of our own citizens who had lost their lives in the service of the United States, whose families had been much more hardly dealt with, viz: the family of a Lieutenant Colonel, who had four hundred and fifty dollars a year granted them; that of a Major, three hundred dollars a year; and that of the Marshal of Georgia, whose family had a grant of two thousand dollars. The yeas and nays were taken—40 to 43.
The question for allowing five hundred dollars a year being negatived, four hundred was proposed and carried—46 to 34.
The question being on the bill being engrossed for a third reading, Mr. Blount called for the yeas and nays upon it. It was carried—55 to 25.
Lemuel Benton, from the State of South Carolina, appeared, and took his seat.
Mr. Livingston called up for consideration and decision the resolution which he had laid upon the table a few days ago, for the appointment of a committee of inquiry into the expenditure of money which had been appropriated for the naval service.
The House having agreed to take up this business—
Mr. Harper said, he believed that the appointment of such a committee was very unusual, without having some ground stated to the House for the proceeding. A vote of this kind would imply a censure upon the conduct of our public officers, which certainly ought not to be done hastily, or without first having, at least, some ground of suspicion laid before them upon which to act. The House had not yet received the statements which had been called for relative to this business; they were directed to be laid before the House in the last week in January, and might, therefore, be soon expected.
[Several gentlemen said it was the first, and not the last week in January, in which the accounts had been ordered to be laid before the House.]
Mr. H. said the delay, he supposed, had been occasioned by the officers having been obliged to remove from the city during the fever. He had, however, been informed that these statements would be ready in a few days. And would it not be extraordinary, he asked, if, before they received these statements, they were to appoint a committee of inquiry? He thought it would. He believed the officers of this department of Government were very desirous of the inquiry taking place; but this was not a sufficient reason for the House to proceed in the business without having first some ground to suppose the money had been misapplied, and this he believed could not be ascertained until the expected statements were before the House. When these were looked into, it was possible the House might be satisfied with respect to the expenditure of the money, and it would, therefore, be improper to appoint a committee to inquire into a matter which might so shortly appear satisfactory. If, on the other hand, these accounts should not be satisfactory, he would readily concur in the appointment of a committee of inquiry.
Mr. J. Williams said, the gentleman from South Carolina ought to recollect that the inquiry was produced by a further appropriation being called for. It might be best to defer the inquiry until the accounts which had been called for were laid before the House; and he should have been satisfied with the business taking that course, if a further appropriation had not been called for in the mean time. But when they are called upon to appropriate a further sum of money for any object, it was natural to inquire what was become of that already voted; and the only way of doing this was to appoint a committee who would look into all the different statements which had from time to time been laid before the House, and those which might shortly be communicated, and state their opinion thereon to the House. He thought those gentlemen who were most friendly to the frigates ought not to oppose the appointment of a committee; because, if it should appear that the money had been justly expended, there would be little objection to a further appropriation.
Mr. Livingston said, from the full discussion of this subject, which, though incidentally produced, had taken place on a former occasion, he did not think it would either have been becoming or necessary to have again stated the reasons which gave rise to this resolution, especially as he felt an aversion to say any thing which might be unnecessary, or which might tire those who heard him. Mr. L. said, that he had before observed that the patience of the House had been worn out by the repeated applications which had been made for money for this object; that the expense had exceeded all belief; that the most extended imagination could not have conceived an amount like that which Congress had from time to time been blindly led to appropriate. But the proposition was objected to, because it would cast an odium upon our officers. This he was perfectly indifferent about. Whatever might be the private opinion he had of the characters of these officers, however incapable he might believe them of doing wrong, or of acting corruptly, yet, when his duty called upon him to make an inquiry into the expenditure of public money, he was deaf to all considerations of a private nature. But, in this case, he did not see the necessity for this remark. The House had been told (he believed by the gentleman from South Carolina himself) that the extraordinary expense had been occasioned by our inexperience in business of this kind, by the high price of labor, materials, &c. If this were the case, the result of the inquiry would be honorable to those concerned, and highly satisfactory to the House. It was a proceeding which our public officers ought to wish for; nay, gentlemen say they do wish for it.
But, Mr. L. said, it had been alleged, that the statements ordered a year ago to be laid before the House during the first week in this month, should be waited for before any inquiry took place. He would reply, if these officers had not, in the mean time, called upon the House for a fresh supply of money, this inquiry would not have been thought of. Besides, the accounts asked for last year would not give the satisfaction required. The request only extended to all the expenditures previous to the 1st of January, 1797. The House would wish to know what had been expended since, and they had no reason to expect further information than was asked for. Mr. L. said every member who was present at the time must remember that whenever the House had been applied to for further appropriations, they had been told that the frigates would be ready for sea at such and such a time; and that they would then bear our flag triumphantly over the ocean. And yet, though the House had been four or five times deceived by these representations, they were told there was no ground for inquiry. For his part, he should consider himself as neglecting his duty were he not to call for this inquiry immediately; for, if the House were to wait a week for the statements called for, they might wait another for their being printed; they might then be found to be deficient, fresh statements might be necessary, and the session might expire without effecting the wished-for inquiry. He thought all parts of the House ought to favor the inquiry; for, he believed, if it should appear that frigates could not be built for less than $500,000 a piece, the project of a navy ought to be given up; but if, on the other hand, difficulties and expenses had occurred in the commencement of this business, which would not return, and their frigates may in future be built for half the sum, (which was his opinion,) there would be some encouragement to proceed in the business.
Mr. Sewall was sorry that the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Harper) had given the occasion, and that the gentleman last up had so eagerly seized it, to thwart any measures which might be necessary for the general defence, by ridiculing the resources of the country. The present, he said, was a time of danger and apprehension, and thus to talk of the resources of the United States added to the apprehension and the danger. The gentleman from South Carolina had said, that to pass this resolution would be to pass an odium upon our public officers. He did not think so. He thought an inquiry of this kind at all times proper where there was any doubt as to the expenditure of money. He agreed with the gentleman from New York, that the inquiry (if it had a favorable issue, which he did not doubt) would forward the design of providing a navy; as it would appear that the extraordinary expenses had been such as it would not be necessary to incur in future. He was, therefore, sorry to hear the gentleman from New York first up (Mr. Williams) say he should be disinclined to vote any further appropriation until he saw how the last had been expended. However improvidently the money already appropriated had been expended, yet, in order to secure what had been voted, and to keep the work in progress, they ought to vote a further sum, as soon as wanted, whether the statements called for were received or not.
Mr. Livingston desired to know wherein he had attempted to ridicule the resources of this country? The gentleman from Massachusetts must excuse him when he asserted he had never made a more hasty or unfounded charge. If he had either ridiculed the resources, or thwarted any measures for the general defence of the United States, it must have arisen from a weak judgment, and not from any intention of doing so. But he was certain nothing which had fallen from him could be so construed.
Mr. Sewall acquitted the gentleman from New York of any intention of lowering the appearances of the resources of this country; but he appealed to the House whether he had not spoken of this fleet with a degree of ridicule, when he represented it as governing the ocean. It appeared so to him at least.
Mr. Harper again insisted upon the impropriety of going into this measure, from reasons similar to those which he had already given.
Mr. Gallatin said, that the ground taken by the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Harper) would prevent any inquiry whatever; for he stated that the House ought not to pass the present resolution, because certain statements had not been received, and because to pass it would be to imply a censure on our officers. So that on this ground no inquiry could be gone into without statements, as the House could not obtain statements without passing a resolution, that resolution would be construed into a censure, and therefore ought not to be passed. This Mr. G. thought a very improper doctrine. It would never be in the power of the House to decide upon the propriety of statements by barely having them laid upon the table.
Mr. Gallatin stated the different estimates which had been made to the House. In 1794, he said, they were told that $688,000 would be sufficient to build six frigates. In 1796, they were informed there had been a mistake in the matter, but that with $80,000 more three would be finished. In January, 1797, the House was again called upon for $172,000; in July, in the same year, for $200,000, and now for $150,000 more. Such calculations, he thought, wholly unaccountable.
Mr. Nicholas did not understand what the gentleman from Connecticut meant by saying that this was wholly Executive business. He did not believe, because the President had told the House that he was about to hold a treaty, that the money must be granted, and that the House had no choice whether they would appropriate it or not. From what had already been said upon the subject, he doubted not there was a pretty general disposition to grant the money; but it was not proper that the Message should be sent to the Committee of Ways and Means, as if an appropriation was a thing of course; to do this, would be to act at the command of the President of the United States; whereas the House could only act upon the full exercise of its discretion. He therefore moved that the Message be referred to the Committee of the Whole, which had already this subject under consideration.
Mr. Gallatin believed the gentleman from Connecticut had not considered this subject with his usual correctness. That gentleman had said that the Message before them ought to go to the Committee of Ways and Means, and that an appropriation should follow as a thing of course. It must be known that this was contrary to the practice of that House, or of any former Legislature of the United States. On the contrary, it was usual, first to authorize an expense, and in the next place to appropriate; and in no case had the business been reversed. If the Message were referred to the Committee of Ways and Means, all they could do, would be to bring it back to the House, and ask for an authority for the expense. He believed the gentleman from Connecticut had been led into this mistake by considering the Message announcing the intention of the President to hold a treaty as a treaty made; and had that been the case, according to that gentleman's known opinion, he would consider the House as bound to make the necessary appropriation; but he desired him to recollect that no treaty was yet made; and, therefore, that that doctrine could not apply in the present case.
Mr. Rutledge did not believe it was necessary or proper for that House to authorize the President to hold a treaty; but if it were necessary for him to hold a treaty, the concurrence of that House was necessary to enable him to do it, as it could not be done without money. It was requisite, therefore, to pass a bill, not to authorize the President to hold a treaty, but to enable him to do it. It was best, therefore, for the communication first to go to the Committee of the Whole, and afterwards to the Committee of Ways and Means, in order for them to say where the money could be got. There was something in this case which pointed out this mode as peculiarly proper, as there seemed to be a disposition in the House, if the treaty should not succeed agreeably to the wishes of the President, to afford temporary relief to the persons now suffering from being driven from their land. The gentleman from Connecticut had said, that the Committee of Ways and Means could report an estimate of the probable expense which would be incurred in holding the treaty; but if he attended to the Message of the President, he would find that this estimate was to be laid before the House by the proper department, so that there was no necessity of a reference to any committee for that purpose.
The motion for a reference to the Committee of the Whole was carried, without a division.
On motion of Mr. Gregg, the House went into a Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee of Claims on the petition of William Alexander, surveyor of Army lands. After reading a number of papers relative to the subject, the report, which went to authorize the Treasury to settle the accounts of the petitioner, was agreed to, the committee rose, the House concurred, and a bill was directed to be brought in accordingly.
Mr. Pinckney, from the committee appointed to confer with the Senate on the disagreement between the two Houses on the bill for the payment of interest to General Kosciusko, reported, that finding the business could be settled in a manner equally advantageous to the General, by agreeing to the amendment of the Senate, as by the mode originally proposed, the committee recommend it to the House to recede from their disagreement to the Senate's amendment.
The recommendation was concurred in by the House.
On motion of Mr. Harper, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee of Ways and Means for providing for the expenses of the civil department for the year 1798, and the blanks being filled (except in a few cases, in which they were left in blank) according to the estimate which had been laid before the House, the committee rose, the House concurred, and the bill was ordered to be reported accordingly.
The Speaker laid before the House a communication from the Secretary of War, enclosing an estimate of the appropriations necessary for holding a treaty with the Cherokee Indians, which was in substance as follows: