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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 08:32:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Wolfskill <david@catwhisker.org>
Reply-To: David Wolfskill <david@catwhisker.org>
To: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@freebsd.org
Cc: jmb@freebsd.org
Subject: (Strongly!) suggested change to listed address for postmaster@
X-Send-Pr-Version: 3.113
X-GNATS-Notify:

>Number:         71529
>Category:       docs
>Synopsis:       (Strongly!) suggested change to listed address for postmaster@
>Confidential:   no
>Severity:       non-critical
>Priority:       medium
>Responsible:    roam
>State:          closed
>Quarter:        
>Keywords:       
>Date-Required:  
>Class:          change-request
>Submitter-Id:   current-users
>Arrival-Date:   Thu Sep 09 15:40:16 GMT 2004
>Closed-Date:    Mon Sep 13 07:36:11 GMT 2004
>Last-Modified:  Mon Sep 13 07:36:11 GMT 2004
>Originator:     David Wolfskill
>Release:        FreeBSD 4.10-STABLE i386
>Organization:
Wolfskill & Dowling Residence
>Environment:
System: FreeBSD bunrab.catwhisker.org 4.10-STABLE FreeBSD 4.10-STABLE #75: Sun Sep 5 05:16:39 PDT 2004 root@freebeast.catwhisker.org:/common/S1/obj/usr/src/sys/BUNRAB i386


>Description:
Under "Postmaster," doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors/article.sgml
currently shows Jonathan's name & address address as well as mine.

There are a couple of issues; the first is that Jonathan has effectively
retired from postmaster@FreeBSD.org, effective January 2003.  (However,
"jmb" still shows up in the expansion for the "postmaster" alias on
hub.)

That, however, is not the focus of this PR.  I mention it in passing,
and am Cc:ing Jonathan, in case he wants to pipe up.

The focus is that while the names may be useful, the given addresses are
somewhat less so, and may be misleading:  mx1.freebsd.org is (and has
been) set up to treat mail to postmaster@ as "special" -- there are
several circumstances such that if someone tries to send mail to
jmb@freebsd.org or dhw@freebsd.org, the attempt will fail, while an
otherwise equivalent attempt to send mail to postmaster@freebsd.org will
succeed.

This is by design and intent, per RFC 2821, section 4.5.1.

Further, the mail that is addressed to postmaster@freebsd.org that gets
to me does so via the address "freebsd-pm@catwhisker.org" -- in my MTA
rules and filters on mx.catwhisker.org, I make an effort to accept
mail addressed to freebsd-pm@ just as I do for postmaster@ -- and those
rules are a lot less strict than those I have for non-postmaster
aliases.

Thus, with the situation as it now is, someone having trouble sending
mail to one of the FreeBSD.org mailing lists might be inclined to send
mail to dhw@ and jmb@ (individually -- as happened today), and be just
as unable to send mail to those addresses as to the mailing list.  So
the person then ends up sending mail from some other address that does
not exhibit the problem, finding some other way to contact us, or giving
up.

I believe that changing the given email address(es) to just
"postmaster@FreeBSD.org" would better serve folks in need of contacting
Postmaster and suggest that the docs be changed to reflect that.

>How-To-Repeat:
	n/a
>Fix:

Sorry; I don't have the docbook-fu for this.  :-(

>Release-Note:
>Audit-Trail:

From: Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net>
To: David Wolfskill <david@catwhisker.org>
Cc: bug-followup@FreeBSD.org, jmb@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: docs/71529: (Strongly!) suggested change to listed address for postmaster@
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:00:44 +0300

 On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 08:32:29AM -0700, David Wolfskill wrote:
 > 
 > >Number:         71529
 > >Category:       docs
 > >Synopsis:       (Strongly!) suggested change to listed address for postmaster@
 > >Originator:     David Wolfskill
 > >Description:
 > Under "Postmaster," doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors/article.sgml
 > currently shows Jonathan's name & address address as well as mine.
 [snip]
 > I believe that changing the given email address(es) to just
 > "postmaster@FreeBSD.org" would better serve folks in need of contacting
 > Postmaster and suggest that the docs be changed to reflect that.
 
 What do you think about the following three patches?  You can see them
 and the resulting versions of the Contributors article at
 http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/pm/
 
 First patch: add 'reachable via' at the end:
 
 Index: article.sgml
 ===================================================================
 RCS file: /home/ncvs/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors/article.sgml,v
 retrieving revision 1.433
 diff -u -r1.433 article.sgml
 --- article.sgml	8 Aug 2004 13:43:53 -0000	1.433
 +++ article.sgml	10 Sep 2004 08:35:53 -0000
 @@ -510,8 +510,10 @@
  	<term>Postmaster</term>
  
  	<listitem>
 -	  <para>&a.dhw;,</para>
 -	  <para>&a.jmb;</para>
 +	  <para>David Wolfskill,</para>
 +	  <para>Jonathan M. Bresler</para>
 +	  <para>Both are reachable via the
 +	    <email>postmaster@FreeBSD.org</email> address.</para>
  	</listitem>
        </varlistentry>
  
 ----------------
 
 Second patch: add a 'Postmaster team' prologue:
 
 Index: article.sgml
 ===================================================================
 RCS file: /home/ncvs/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors/article.sgml,v
 retrieving revision 1.433
 diff -u -r1.433 article.sgml
 --- article.sgml	8 Aug 2004 13:43:53 -0000	1.433
 +++ article.sgml	10 Sep 2004 08:38:15 -0000
 @@ -510,8 +510,10 @@
  	<term>Postmaster</term>
  
  	<listitem>
 -	  <para>&a.dhw;,</para>
 -	  <para>&a.jmb;</para>
 +	  <para>FreeBSD.org Postmaster team
 +	    <email>postmaster@FreeBSD.org</email>, which includes:</para>
 +	  <para>David Wolfskill,</para>
 +	  <para>Jonathan M. Bresler</para>
  	</listitem>
        </varlistentry>
  
 --------------
 
 Third patch: remove jmb@, add 'reachable via':
 
 Index: article.sgml
 ===================================================================
 RCS file: /home/ncvs/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors/article.sgml,v
 retrieving revision 1.433
 diff -u -r1.433 article.sgml
 --- article.sgml	8 Aug 2004 13:43:53 -0000	1.433
 +++ article.sgml	10 Sep 2004 08:39:39 -0000
 @@ -510,8 +510,8 @@
  	<term>Postmaster</term>
  
  	<listitem>
 -	  <para>&a.dhw;,</para>
 -	  <para>&a.jmb;</para>
 +	  <para>David Wolfskill, reachable via the
 +	    <email>postmaster@FreeBSD.org</email> address.</para>
  	</listitem>
        </varlistentry>
  
 Any other suggestions on wording this are welcome :)
 
 G'luck,
 Peter
 
 -- 
 Peter Pentchev	roam@ringlet.net    roam@cnsys.bg    roam@FreeBSD.org
 PGP key:	http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc
 Key fingerprint	FDBA FD79 C26F 3C51 C95E  DF9E ED18 B68D 1619 4553
 If you think this sentence is confusing, then change one pig.

From: Jonathan M Bresler <jmb@bresler.org>
To: Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net>
Cc: David Wolfskill <david@catwhisker.org>, bug-followup@FreeBSD.org,
	jmb@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: docs/71529: (Strongly!) suggested change to listed address for
 postmaster@
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:47:38 -0400 (EDT)

 Actually, I would recommend removing my name, Jonathan Bresler, from the
 documentation regarding postmaster.  David has been fulfilling that role
 very well for a significant period of time.
 
 I have left myself in the /etc/aliases file, as a backup should David have
 questions or be unavailable for some reason.  At this point perhaps that
 is no longer needed as well.
 
 jmb
 
 On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Peter Pentchev wrote:
 
 > On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 08:32:29AM -0700, David Wolfskill wrote:
 > >
 > > >Number:         71529
 > > >Category:       docs
 > > >Synopsis:       (Strongly!) suggested change to listed address for postmaster@
 > > >Originator:     David Wolfskill
 > > >Description:
 > > Under "Postmaster," doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors/article.sgml
 > > currently shows Jonathan's name & address address as well as mine.
 > [snip]
 > > I believe that changing the given email address(es) to just
 > > "postmaster@FreeBSD.org" would better serve folks in need of contacting
 > > Postmaster and suggest that the docs be changed to reflect that.
 >
 > What do you think about the following three patches?  You can see them
 > and the resulting versions of the Contributors article at
 > http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/pm/
 >
 > First patch: add 'reachable via' at the end:
 >
 > Index: article.sgml
 > ===================================================================
 > RCS file: /home/ncvs/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors/article.sgml,v
 > retrieving revision 1.433
 > diff -u -r1.433 article.sgml
 > --- article.sgml	8 Aug 2004 13:43:53 -0000	1.433
 > +++ article.sgml	10 Sep 2004 08:35:53 -0000
 > @@ -510,8 +510,10 @@
 >  	<term>Postmaster</term>
 >
 >  	<listitem>
 > -	  <para>&a.dhw;,</para>
 > -	  <para>&a.jmb;</para>
 > +	  <para>David Wolfskill,</para>
 > +	  <para>Jonathan M. Bresler</para>
 > +	  <para>Both are reachable via the
 > +	    <email>postmaster@FreeBSD.org</email> address.</para>
 >  	</listitem>
 >        </varlistentry>
 >
 > ----------------
 >
 > Second patch: add a 'Postmaster team' prologue:
 >
 > Index: article.sgml
 > ===================================================================
 > RCS file: /home/ncvs/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors/article.sgml,v
 > retrieving revision 1.433
 > diff -u -r1.433 article.sgml
 > --- article.sgml	8 Aug 2004 13:43:53 -0000	1.433
 > +++ article.sgml	10 Sep 2004 08:38:15 -0000
 > @@ -510,8 +510,10 @@
 >  	<term>Postmaster</term>
 >
 >  	<listitem>
 > -	  <para>&a.dhw;,</para>
 > -	  <para>&a.jmb;</para>
 > +	  <para>FreeBSD.org Postmaster team
 > +	    <email>postmaster@FreeBSD.org</email>, which includes:</para>
 > +	  <para>David Wolfskill,</para>
 > +	  <para>Jonathan M. Bresler</para>
 >  	</listitem>
 >        </varlistentry>
 >
 > --------------
 >
 > Third patch: remove jmb@, add 'reachable via':
 >
 > Index: article.sgml
 > ===================================================================
 > RCS file: /home/ncvs/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors/article.sgml,v
 > retrieving revision 1.433
 > diff -u -r1.433 article.sgml
 > --- article.sgml	8 Aug 2004 13:43:53 -0000	1.433
 > +++ article.sgml	10 Sep 2004 08:39:39 -0000
 > @@ -510,8 +510,8 @@
 >  	<term>Postmaster</term>
 >
 >  	<listitem>
 > -	  <para>&a.dhw;,</para>
 > -	  <para>&a.jmb;</para>
 > +	  <para>David Wolfskill, reachable via the
 > +	    <email>postmaster@FreeBSD.org</email> address.</para>
 >  	</listitem>
 >        </varlistentry>
 >
 > Any other suggestions on wording this are welcome :)
 >
 > G'luck,
 > Peter
 >
 > --
 > Peter Pentchev	roam@ringlet.net    roam@cnsys.bg    roam@FreeBSD.org
 > PGP key:	http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc
 > Key fingerprint	FDBA FD79 C26F 3C51 C95E  DF9E ED18 B68D 1619 4553
 > If you think this sentence is confusing, then change one pig.
 >
 >

From: David Wolfskill <david@catwhisker.org>
To: david@catwhisker.org, roam@ringlet.net
Cc: bug-followup@FreeBSD.org, jmb@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: docs/71529: (Strongly!) suggested change to listed address for postmaster@
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:46:35 -0700 (PDT)

 >Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:00:44 +0300
 >From: Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net>
 >To: David Wolfskill <david@catwhisker.org>
 >Cc: bug-followup@FreeBSD.org, jmb@FreeBSD.org
 >Subject: Re: docs/71529: (Strongly!) suggested change to listed address for postmaster@
 
 >On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 08:32:29AM -0700, David Wolfskill wrote:
 
 [PR about postmaster@FreeBSD.org email address documentation]
 
 >What do you think about the following three patches?  You can see them
 >and the resulting versions of the Contributors article at
 >http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/pm/
 
 My current favorite is the 2nd --  the one with the "Postmaster
 Team Prologue".  It's clear and unambiguous; it's easily changed as the
 membership of the team changes.
 
 In the first patch, I think I'd be slightly more inclined to use "Each
 is reachable" vs. "Both are reachable" (in case something based on the
 first patch is finally selected).  But then, if jmb decides to not be
 listed, that makes things awkward:  one doesn't write "each" to refer to
 the only element of a set or member of a team.  And "both" only works as
 long as there are precisely 2 members of the team.
 
 The 3rd patch doesn't strike me as being easily adapted to changes in
 the size of the team.
 
 >Any other suggestions on wording this are welcome :)
 
 :-)  Just recall Victor Borge's line (referring to the English
 language):  "It's *your* language; I'm just trying to *use* it!"
 
 >If you think this sentence is confusing, then change one pig.
 
 :-)  I recall reading that line in one of Hofstadter's columns -- I
 think it was in his "Metamagical Themas" column in Scientific American
 (successor column to Martin Gardner's "Mathematical Games".
 
 Thanks!
 
 Peace,
 david
 -- 
 David H. Wolfskill				david@catwhisker.org
 Evidence of curmudgeonliness:  becoming irritated with the usage of the
 word "speed" in contexts referring to quantification of network
 performance, as opposed to "bandwidth" or "latency."

From: Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net>
To: David Wolfskill <david@catwhisker.org>
Cc: bug-followup@FreeBSD.org, jmb@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: docs/71529: (Strongly!) suggested change to listed address for postmaster@
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:09:13 +0300

 On Fri, Sep 10, 2004 at 06:46:35AM -0700, David Wolfskill wrote:
 > >Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:00:44 +0300
 > >From: Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net>
 > >To: David Wolfskill <david@catwhisker.org>
 > >Cc: bug-followup@FreeBSD.org, jmb@FreeBSD.org
 > >Subject: Re: docs/71529: (Strongly!) suggested change to listed address for postmaster@
 > 
 > >On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 08:32:29AM -0700, David Wolfskill wrote:
 > 
 > [PR about postmaster@FreeBSD.org email address documentation]
 > 
 > >What do you think about the following three patches?  You can see them
 > >and the resulting versions of the Contributors article at
 > >http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/pm/
 > 
 > My current favorite is the 2nd --  the one with the "Postmaster
 > Team Prologue".  It's clear and unambiguous; it's easily changed as the
 > membership of the team changes.
 
 All right then - so, combined with jmb's reply, this would yield the
 following patch, added as the fourth patch now at
 http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/pm/ with the result at
 http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/pm/contrib-pm-team-dhw.html#STAFF-WHO
 
 Index: article.sgml
 ===================================================================
 RCS file: /home/ncvs/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors/article.sgml,v
 retrieving revision 1.433
 diff -u -r1.433 article.sgml
 --- article.sgml	8 Aug 2004 13:43:53 -0000	1.433
 +++ article.sgml	10 Sep 2004 13:55:34 -0000
 @@ -510,8 +510,9 @@
  	<term>Postmaster</term>
  
  	<listitem>
 -	  <para>&a.dhw;,</para>
 -	  <para>&a.jmb;</para>
 +	  <para>FreeBSD.org Postmaster team
 +	    <email>postmaster@FreeBSD.org</email>, which includes:</para>
 +	  <para>David Wolfskill</para>
  	</listitem>
        </varlistentry>
  
 > >Any other suggestions on wording this are welcome :)
 > 
 > :-)  Just recall Victor Borge's line (referring to the English
 > language):  "It's *your* language; I'm just trying to *use* it!"
 
 Yeah, only it's not mine - or did you mean it the other way round? :)
 
 > >If you think this sentence is confusing, then change one pig.
 > 
 > :-)  I recall reading that line in one of Hofstadter's columns -- I
 > think it was in his "Metamagical Themas" column in Scientific American
 > (successor column to Martin Gardner's "Mathematical Games".
 
 Give the man a cigar!  I've been using Hofstadter's sample sentences in
 email sigs for some time now; the full list that I'm using is available
 at http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/misc/hoflines.txt :)
 
 G'luck,
 Peter
 
 -- 
 Peter Pentchev	roam@ringlet.net    roam@cnsys.bg    roam@FreeBSD.org
 PGP key:	http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc
 Key fingerprint	FDBA FD79 C26F 3C51 C95E  DF9E ED18 B68D 1619 4553
 If the meanings of 'true' and 'false' were switched, then this sentence wouldn't be false.

From: David Wolfskill <david@catwhisker.org>
To: david@catwhisker.org, roam@ringlet.net
Cc: bug-followup@FreeBSD.org, jmb@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: docs/71529: (Strongly!) suggested change to listed address for postmaster@
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:30:41 -0700 (PDT)

 >Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:09:13 +0300
 >From: Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net>
 >To: David Wolfskill <david@catwhisker.org>
 >Cc: bug-followup@FreeBSD.org, jmb@FreeBSD.org
 >Subject: Re: docs/71529: (Strongly!) suggested change to listed address for postmaster@
 
 >> [PR about postmaster@FreeBSD.org email address documentation]
 
 >All right then - so, combined with jmb's reply, this would yield the
 >following patch, added as the fourth patch now at
 >http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/pm/ with the result at
 >http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/pm/contrib-pm-team-dhw.html#STAFF-WHO
 
 Yup.
 
 >> :-)  Just recall Victor Borge's line (referring to the English
 >> language):  "It's *your* language; I'm just trying to *use* it!"
 
 >Yeah, only it's not mine - or did you mean it the other way round? :)
 
 The latter -- Borge was Danish.  :-)
 
 >> >If you think this sentence is confusing, then change one pig.
 
 >> ....  Hofstadter ....
 
 >Give the man a cigar!  I've been using Hofstadter's sample sentences in
 >email sigs for some time now; the full list that I'm using is available
 >at http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/misc/hoflines.txt :)
 
 I had noticed, but hadn't overcome the inertia enough to get around to
 commenting.  :-}
 
 [I actually bought a copy of _Goedel, Escher, Bach: An Eternel Golden
 Braid_ for a young lady some years ago.  And she married me anyway....]
 
 Peace,
 david
 -- 
 David H. Wolfskill				david@catwhisker.org
 Evidence of curmudgeonliness:  becoming irritated with the usage of the
 word "speed" in contexts referring to quantification of network
 performance, as opposed to "bandwidth" or "latency."
State-Changed-From-To: open->closed 
State-Changed-By: roam 
State-Changed-When: Fri Sep 10 14:52:20 GMT 2004 
State-Changed-Why:  


http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=71529 
State-Changed-From-To: closed->analyzed 
State-Changed-By: roam 
State-Changed-When: Fri Sep 10 14:52:47 GMT 2004 
State-Changed-Why:  
Oops. 


Responsible-Changed-From-To: freebsd-doc->roam 
Responsible-Changed-By: roam 
Responsible-Changed-When: Fri Sep 10 14:52:47 GMT 2004 
Responsible-Changed-Why:  
I'll take care of this. 

http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=71529 
State-Changed-From-To: analyzed->closed 
State-Changed-By: roam 
State-Changed-When: Mon Sep 13 07:34:29 GMT 2004 
State-Changed-Why:  
(for real this time) 
The fix was committed with a <hostid> tag added on Marc Fonvielle's 
suggestion.  Thanks for the PR, hope this does not make your life too much 
harder as the hordes can now successfully reach the postmaster alias ;) 

http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=71529 
>Unformatted:
