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Date: 15 Mar 2002 18:15:50 -0800
From: "Gary W. Swearingen" <swear@blarg.net>
Reply-To: swear@blarg.net
To: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@freebsd.org
Subject: at(1) config files are misplaced in /var/at/
X-GNATS-Notify:

>Number:         35943
>Category:       docs
>Synopsis:       at(1) config files are misplaced in /var/at/
>Confidential:   no
>Severity:       non-critical
>Priority:       low
>Responsible:    trhodes
>State:          closed
>Quarter:        
>Keywords:       
>Date-Required:  
>Class:          change-request
>Submitter-Id:   current-users
>Arrival-Date:   Fri Mar 15 18:20:01 PST 2002
>Closed-Date:    Sat Oct 14 00:13:52 GMT 2006
>Last-Modified:  Sat Oct 14 00:13:52 GMT 2006
>Originator:     Gary W. Swearingen
>Release:        FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386
>Organization:
none
>Environment:
n/a
================
>Description:

The configuration files for at(1), at.allow and at.deny, are currently
looked for in /var/at/ instead of in /etc/ like almost all other system
configuration files.

Each file should first be looked for first in /etc/ (and then in /var/at/
for backward compatibility).  The manual should document this behavior.

This change makes the OS configuration scheme more consistent.  Also, I
suppose that many SAs prefer to keep these files in /etc/ so that the
configuration files are easier to find and back up and this change would
save them the effort of maintaining a link from /var/at/ to /etc/.
================
>How-To-Repeat:
n/a
================
>Fix:
>Release-Note:
>Audit-Trail:

From: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
To: "Gary W. Swearingen" <swear@blarg.net>
Cc: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: docs/35943: at(1) config files are misplaced in /var/at/
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 18:44:25 +0200

 On 2002-03-15 18:15, Gary W. Swearingen wrote:
 >
 > The configuration files for at(1), at.allow and at.deny, are currently
 > looked for in /var/at/ instead of in /etc/ like almost all other system
 > configuration files.
 
 There are other programs that use /var too.  Cron(8) for instance, saves
 the crontabs in /var/cron/tabs.  Why is it so bad that at(1) saves files in
 /var too?
 
 Giorgos Keramidas                       FreeBSD Documentation Project
 keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr}  http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/

From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen)
To: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
Cc: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: docs/35943: at(1) config files are misplaced in /var/at/
Date: 17 Mar 2002 11:34:49 -0800

 Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> writes:
 
 > There are other programs that use /var too.  Cron(8) for instance, saves
 > the crontabs in /var/cron/tabs.  Why is it so bad that at(1) saves files in
 > /var too?
 
 It's NOT bad that programs SAVE files in /var/; that's what it's there
 for.  And /etc/ is there for read-only config files.  But the cron(8)
 and at(8) programs are the only ones I know of that read from read-only
 configuration files in /var/.  (I was saving cron(8) until I saw how
 at(1) went, but only for cron's "allow" and "deny", not its databases.)
 
 Of course, it is debatable whether it is better to keep a program's
 files together or scatter them about, or whether it's useful to
 distinguish between config files and database files the crontabs, but I
 think that in one of these rare cases where there is a clear rule or
 convention, it should be adhered to by all system programs when it's
 practical; in this case it's easy.

From: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@freebsdd.org>
To: "Gary W. Swearingen" <swear@blarg.net>
Cc: bug-followup@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: docs/35943: at(1) config files are misplaced in /var/at/
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 23:46:30 +0200

 On 2002-03-17 11:34, Gary W. Swearingen wrote:
 > Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> writes:
 > Of course, it is debatable whether it is better to keep a program's
 > files together or scatter them about, or whether it's useful to
 > distinguish between config files and database files the crontabs, but I
 > think that in one of these rare cases where there is a clear rule or
 > convention, it should be adhered to by all system programs when it's
 > practical; in this case it's easy.
 
 Sure.  As an idea it's nice.  Any chance you can come up with a "proof of
 concept" patch?  That will make things easier to test, since this is not a
 very bad idea.
 
 Giorgos Keramidas                       FreeBSD Documentation Project
 keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr}  http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/

From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen)
To: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@freebsd.org>
Cc: bug-followup@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: docs/35943: at(1) config files are misplaced in /var/at/
Date: 17 Mar 2002 18:33:11 -0800

 Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@freebsdd.org> writes:
 
 > Any chance you can come up with a "proof of
 > concept" patch?
 
 Please assume that I will not develop any patches for any PR for the
 indefinite future.  It's not because of any mistreatment of my patches
 or anything like that; I've just found patch development to be REAL
 WORK, and few, if any, of my PRs will have higher priority than other
 real work that I should be doing (some of which should eventually
 benefit FreeBSD too).
 
 This patch would be a one-liner (in Makefile.inc) to just change the
 location, but I assume that the change needs to be backward compatible.
 
 P.S. Looks like you've got a typo ("dd") in your return address.

From: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
To: "Gary W. Swearingen" <swear@blarg.net>
Cc: bug-followup@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: docs/35943: at(1) config files are misplaced in /var/at/
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 05:01:09 +0200

 On 2002-03-17 18:33, Gary W. Swearingen wrote:
 > Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@freebsdd.org> writes:
 >
 > This patch would be a one-liner (in Makefile.inc) to just change the
 > location, but I assume that the change needs to be backward compatible.
 
 If the change is indeed deemed appropriate, changes to mtree/BSD.root.dist
 probably need to be made too, to make sure that /etc/at is created by
 mergemaster, with the proper files in it.  Perhaps a couple of sample
 at.allow and at.deny files, should be put there too?  Some way of
 notifying administrators that their old /vat/at/at.* files are no longer
 used, and they should copy them to /etc/at?
 
 I don't know, I'm just looking for a more complete "drop this in your
 source tree and rebuild, to see everything working" thing.  Ideas, are nice
 too.  It doesn't always have to be "diff -u" output (although that helps a
 lot most of the time).
 
 > P.S. Looks like you've got a typo ("dd") in your return address.
 
 Yep, thanks.
 I typoed, and found out only after the followup reached my INBOX.
 
 Giorgos Keramidas                       FreeBSD Documentation Project
 keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr}  http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/

From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen)
To: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
Cc: bug-followup@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: docs/35943: at(1) config files are misplaced in /var/at/
Date: 18 Mar 2002 10:44:26 -0800

 Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> writes:
 
 > If the change is indeed deemed appropriate, changes to mtree/BSD.root.dist
 > probably need to be made too, to make sure that /etc/at is created by
 > mergemaster, with the proper files in it.  Perhaps a couple of sample
 > at.allow and at.deny files, should be put there too?  Some way of
 > notifying administrators that their old /vat/at/at.* files are no longer
 > used, and they should copy them to /etc/at?
 
 I wouldn't bother with /etc/at/ as few will have both "allow" and "deny"
 files because "at" will only read one.  /etc/at.allow and /etc/at.allow
 And remember that neither file should exist on a pristine system.
 
 The sample files idea is a good one, but because of the file-reading
 algorithm in which mere file existence affects the results, the samples
 should have ".example" tagged on the end or something.  But the files
 are simple enough that I think they'd be more a nuisance for developers
 and users than they'd be worth.
 
 As for notifying SAs, etc, "they" should develop a standard scheme for
 having mergemaster output a list of things that should be done or
 checked.  Until then, isn't /usr/src/UPDATING the place for such
 notification?  There's always the problem of people having scripts or
 programs which they've forgotten about that would need to be changed,
 etc.  I don't have a first-hand feel for how such changes are considered
 on FreeBSD, but I suspect that conservatism and backward-compatibility
 are well-respected and expected features of FreeBSD, for good and ill.

From: Tom Rhodes <trhodes@FreeBSD.org>
To: bug-followup@FreeBSD.org, swear@blarg.net, keramida@FreeBSD.org
Cc:  
Subject: Re: docs/35943: at(1) config files are misplaced in /var/at/
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 01:23:34 -0400

 Hi,
 
 Gary states: at(1) should look in /etc for the files.
 Giorgos states: Not a bad idea, but it should be backwords compat.
 
 I say:
 
 If we are going to do something like this, I'd like to see the
 following requirements met:
 
 1: We do add support for at least both file locations and
    wrap the old one in BURN_BRIDGES.
 
 2: Follow the POSIX example and drop the files in /usr/lib/cron
    instead of /etc.  Linux drops them in /etc.  Solaris and
    POSIX looks for them in /usr/lib/cron.  I'd prefer to follow
    POSIX and Solaris here.
 
 Now we should either create a patch and toss it across -arch
 and -standards, or not bother and close this PR.  There will be
 a lot of complaints about this being a bikeshed, useless change,
 taking us out of sync with other BSDs, etc.  But let's either
 make an effort to do something or drop it totally.  What's it
 going to be?  :)
 
 Thanks,
 
 Note, if I don't get feedback on this, I'll close the PR.
 
 -- 
 Tom Rhodes

From: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@freebsd.org>
To: Tom Rhodes <trhodes@freebsd.org>
Cc: bug-followup@freebsd.org, swear@blarg.net
Subject: Re: docs/35943: at(1) config files are misplaced in /var/at/
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 14:46:58 +0300

 On 2006-06-07 01:23, Tom Rhodes <trhodes@FreeBSD.org> wrote:
 > Hi,
 >
 > Gary states: at(1) should look in /etc for the files.
 > Giorgos states: Not a bad idea, but it should be backwords compat.
 
 I don't know how many people use at(1), but I do all the time.
 
 If we change the place where its files are kept, then it should be done
 with a big fat warning in src/UPDATING; that's all.
 
 > I say:
 >
 > If we are going to do something like this, I'd like to see the
 > following requirements met:
 >
 > 1: We do add support for at least both file locations and
 >    wrap the old one in BURN_BRIDGES.
 >
 > 2: Follow the POSIX example and drop the files in /usr/lib/cron
 >    instead of /etc.  Linux drops them in /etc.  Solaris and
 >    POSIX looks for them in /usr/lib/cron.  I'd prefer to follow
 >    POSIX and Solaris here.
 
 POSIX is fine and a good goal, but I think the BSDs tend to pick the
 ``BSD way'' when there is an important conflict.  I don't remember the
 exact email message where I read this, but people more experienced with
 the topic -- whose opinion I trust better than mine a lot of the time --
 like Bruce Evans, are in a better position to make the choise :)
 
 - Giorgos
 
State-Changed-From-To: open->closed 
State-Changed-By: trhodes 
State-Changed-When: Sat Oct 14 00:12:15 UTC 2006 
State-Changed-Why:  
A discussion of where the cron(8) configuration files should 
happen on -arch or -hackers or -current or all three; not in 
a PR.  Note that an email to any of those lists should have 
a patch made available for review.  Thanks! 


Responsible-Changed-From-To: freebsd-doc->trhodes 
Responsible-Changed-By: trhodes 
Responsible-Changed-When: Sat Oct 14 00:12:15 UTC 2006 
Responsible-Changed-Why:  
Over to me. 

http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=35943 
>Unformatted:
